Southeast Unprepared to Teach Hispanics ("Taco Tuesdays"??)

[Tab]

ATLANTA (AP) -- The Southeast has the nation's fastest-growing Hispanic population but is perhaps the region least prepared to teach public school students who don't know English, a new study shows.

Educators in the South are unprepared to teach immigrants, and in many cases discriminate against non-English speakers, according to the study conducted by the University of Southern California. The result is lower test scores and higher dropout rates for Latino children.

"Some teachers just put them in the back of the room and teach their regular lessons because they don't know how to include immigrant students," researcher Andrew Wainer said Thursday.
...
At Georgia's Gainesville Elementary School, which has hundreds of Spanish-speaking children, Principal Shawn McCullough said some educators think their duty to include Hispanic students stops with a sombrero in the front office or "taco Tuesdays in the cafeteria."
More: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HISPANIC_EDUCATION?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=US

[shoelace414]

1. ooh.. ohh.. I know this one!

"They should learn the language before they get here, or stay where they were" -Freep

[Maestro]

6. Unfortunately

you don't know how much I hear this. I'd like to throw a freeper in the middle of Mexico and see how he or she feels.

[catnhatnh]

54. I Too am Unprepared....

Stupid 'puter gots no upside down question marks....Whats hizpanic fer WTF????

[Igel]

57. ¿¿¿¿

Alt-0191

Watch DU not have anything beyond vanilla ASCII enabled on their server. (No, wait, I'm sure I saw a á once.)

[Maestro]

61. Uh

The ASCII codes can all be done from home... :)

ñ, ü, é, ú, ó, á, í, ¿

[Gman]

2. Let's be honest here

No, they don't just stick them in the back of the room because they "don't know hot to teach them". They don't teach them because they're not white and don't speak English. This is the same area that had to be forced to integrate its schools for Blacks. It will take a court decision to fix this. Think that's going to happen anytime soon? Ha!

[Bono71]

14. Nothing like calling an entire region of the contry and some

90,000,000 people racist...way to go...no wonder the democrats/we don't do well in the south.

The article points out a problem. Rather than condemning the south (and teachers, who by and large could be earning a hell of a lot more money in other professions) shouldn't we concentrate on ways to improve the situation?

[Charlie Brown]

17. This is not true

The educators try to avoid communicating with students in Spanish as the boards and politicians feel it will detract them from the process of learning English and fitting in. The educators are not trained to teach the English language to immigrant children and it's not fair to expect it of them. I do think the system needs to be improved and the people who set curriculum need to find ways to orient Hispanic Children into the class, but to blame this on racism is both ignorant and apathetic of the realities teachers face.

[toopers]

21. I forgot that no city outside the south was forced to integrate!

EOM

[SheilaT]

3. That part of the country

has never been very friendly to immigration after the Colonial period. So it just doesn't have any kind of history of or experience with dealing with "furriners". Not that all other parts of this country are wonderful and welcoming as they should be.

I always try to remember that the difference between me and the newest immigrant is simply how recently we (or our families) arrived here, and perhaps the circumstances of immigration. My ethnic group was widely despised when they arrived in large numbers in the 19th century. Our history is an ongoing one of immigration and assimilation.

[Bridget Burke]

4. And MY ethnic group already knew English....

Of a sort.

Thanks to 800 years of exposure to English culture!

Of course, we were mostly Catholic--like most of the Spanish-speaking kids. And Catholics are thin on the ground in many parts of the rural south (outside Louisiana).

[Bono71]

16. Lots of Hondurans in New Orleans!

[SheilaT]

70. My ethnic group also.

:)

[catnhatnh]

55. Not true....

...they liked immigrants SO much they brought in MILLIONS of african immigrants...

[Maestro]

5. I teach them on a daily basis

It's not that hard if you take what they come with as a language and use it to teach them English. The transfer doesn't happen over night, but given time they can be taught to be literate thinking human beings who are bilingual and brilliant!!!!!

See my website: My website on teaching second language learners

[pinerow]

7. The southeast is on the verge of moving right into

the 18th century...next thing you know they will excommunicate Gallileo...!

[shoelace414]

8. Funny thing

the southwest was part of Mexico in the 18th century..

[Hosnon]

69. Nice generalization.

The elementary schools in my home town require Spanish to be taught.

[Dzimbowicz]

9. No quiero romper su burbuja, pero:

Mi colega y yo somos profesores en un colegio en el sudoeste de los EEUU. Podemos hablar español y estamos listos para enseñar a nuestros estudiantes hispanos. Es posible que estemos en la minoría.

¡Nuestros estudiantes hispanos no se sientan detrás de los otros estudiantes! Nos cansamos de ser atacados.



¡Basta ya!

[Politicub]

13. no sea tan arrogante

No tengo ninguna idea qué usted acaba de mecanografiar, pero soy seguro que es probablemente vuelta inútil. Agradezca la calidad por productos de la traducción así que puedo parecerme como un tornillo pompous también.

[Dzimbowicz]

22. Your prejudices are duly noted.

You say that you have no idea what I’ve said, but you choose to question my fluency? Does that not reek of the same bias and prejudice that you seem to decry the most? That is the epitome of hypocrisy. It is obvious, based upon your grammar and word choice, that you used a translation program to respond to me.

You called me a “pompous screw”? Had you taken a moment to look up the word “pompous,” you would have found that it’s actually a cognate. The word is “pomposo,” but “presumido” is also commonly used.

How many languages do YOU speak?

[Politicub]

44. Not very many

Actually, fwiw, I speak and write a litle french. That's about it.

I am awed by your command of Spanish vis a vis pomposo. I bow before you.

[Dzimbowicz]

50. No hard feelings

Please understand that as a public school teacher in South Carolina I must deal with many people who make incorrect assumptions or jump to conclusions about our schools and our teachers; just read some of the responses on this thread to witness my point.

Once again, no hard feelings.

[Politicub]

56. I wish there were more people like you here in GA

My first post to you was rude and silly. I'm sorry about that. I tend to get goofy with the bable fish translation thing.

There is a large and growing hispanic population here, and I know from my experience living in CA, that the state must address issues with bilingual education or we all will loose out.

I have never understood the aprehension that people have about bilingual education. IMHO, I think it all goes back to bigotry and being afraid of what we don't understand.

[Dzimbowicz]

59. Thank you for being honest and understanding

:toast:

[Maestro]

62. You are absolutely correct.

People just can't stand the idea that immigrants learn better when they are afforded their native tongue to take on the new language. Check out #34 for more info on the bilingual debate.

[Spangle]

10. Mixed Feelings about this

Everyone here is assuming these kids are immigrents. Or their parents are immigrents.

Where i live, hispanic parents don't always teach their kids english. I'm talking about parents who are BORN here. Parents who speak perfect english. Parents that went to school here. It's so comment that when a hispanic child is seen, people automaticly speak to the child in spanish. It's assumed the child can't speak english.

Such a child has no business starting school not knowing how to speak and understand english.

But we don't ask on forms if the child or parents are immigrants. We ask what is the primary language. And if english is spoken in the home.

The problem with this is that creates an extra burden on a system that can't really handle it and is all ready over burdened. Our tax dollars should not be spent teach a child english, when his family has been here for several generations.

Part of parenting is to prepare your child to relate with the outside world. Teaching the commen language that the child lives in is part of that. IF the Parents can all ready speak it.

[KurtNYC]

12. In my experience

living in Los Angeles and now NYC, I have more contact with families where the children are functionally bi-lingual and translate for the parents.

[Spangle]

25. The difference is

The parents can't speak english. Right? And the kids are translating for the parents.

I'm speaking of parents who all ready know English, the Grand parents and maybe even the great, grand parents as well.

[Bridget Burke]

15. Where do you live?

I'd like to know what part of the USA includes non-English speakers who've been here for several generations. Or English-speaking parents who've refused to teach their children English. (Seems we have two different groups here.)

"Our tax dollars" have been teaching children English for generations. Why stop now?

[Spangle]

29. Florida

I must not have explained it well. The family is bi-lingual. Not "non-english" speakers. The family speaks english very well. Just not to the little ones.

No, or tax dollars that is suppose to be spent on teaching children and adults english was ment to help those who have immigrated here and had no other way to learn english. NOT to teach each generaton afterwards how to speak english.

No one said anything about stoping teaching English to immigrants.

[Bridget Burke]

33. So--you're talking about one family.

Doesn't sound like a widespread problem.

[Spangle]

40. LOL! . Where did you get THAT idea?

If I only knew one family who did this, I wouldn't have brought it up.

Let's just say it's the norm. And as an example, I can tell you that when I'm standing with a group of friends and a little one walks up, strangers in the group will automaticly speak in spanish to the nino. Cause even tho they don't know the child, they know that most likely the parents are not talking in english to the child.

It's just accepted and assumed at this point.

[Bridget Burke]

45. You "assumed" the child didn't speak English?

Have you asked the parents?

[Spangle]

53. In that case, I knew the family.

And they only speak spanish to the child. Since I live in a mulitcultural envirment, I see this offten. And It's an issue that has been discussed. And I have heard several different points of view. Most just want to make sure their child can speak spanish. Something that I completely understand. Our school system don't teach it. And I wish it would. Also, they are not worried about their child learning english, cause they know that the school WILL teach it.. even tho they don't teach spanish.

Another point of view is more ruff. They (I hope) are a small group who rather be spanish only. Politicaly, they will only support canidates who can speak spanish. Will refuse to speak to you in english if you don't know they speak english. ,etc. This group believes that if society wants their children to speak english, then society should teach them. Rather a radical group. And yes, I have friends who have this train of thought. Whom I have met because of politics. And I would never assume a parent was part of this group just because their child can not speak english at an early age.

Besides these two groups, everyone else I knows teach their children more then one langauge at home, including hispanics. Like I said, muliticulture area. Thre are more then just spanish speakers and english speakers here. Tee Hee...

[donco6]

38. Good question.

In my experience here in Colorado, the vast majority of non-English speaking parents want their children to speak English very badly. But they can't teach them - they don't know themselves!

Yes, there are a few others who - in addition to wanting their kids to learn English - want to preserve their culture, and fear that if English becomes the child's predominant language, they'll "forget" they are "Mexican". They tend to want true bilingual instruction - mastery in both languages.

But I don't know too many who have been here for generations and who don't know any English when they get to school. It's almost always the first or second generation.

[donco6]

20. Pie in the sky.

They should come to school knowing their colors, numbers and how to hold a book, too. But they don't. And unless we're going to abdicate our responsibility to teach all children, regardless of how they arrive at our doorstep, your point is moot.

[Spangle]

30. No it isn't

If you speak english in the home and your child starts school not knowing how to speak.. It would be seen as chlid abuse. Because WHY doesn't the child know how to speak?

There are certian things, legal things that the school system does watch for as signs of child abuse.

Children learn colors, numbers, etc. while playing with adults. Children who come to school with NO knowledge as seen as coming from "problem homes." Where the child gets little or no attention from the parents. It's a red flag. And such a child will be watched. The parents will be watched.

[tx_dem41]

32. This seems like a moot point...

and the child abuse thing is a diversion. Surely, you aren't saying that a child in this condition should not be taught?

[donco6]

35. Do you really want that?

Not knowing how to speak, and only speaking a language heard at home are two entirely different things.

I simply cannot agree with you on this point at all. My own father didn't know English until he went to school. He spoke German at home and learned English in the Jesuit school. To think his father should have been accused of child abuse and penalized when they had nothing to begin with - well, that just seems somewhat counterproductive to me.

Sure it would be better if they knew some English, but the fact is, they don't. We can teach them - honestly, it isn't all that difficult. We do it here all the time (Colorado). By third grade most have a functional knowledge, and can speak to anyone in a fairly literate fashion. Our problem is getting them to a higher level of language so they can perform to the level of their peers. They have difficulty expressing abstract concepts - which hinders them in higher-order math and language courses. These aren't things they could learn at home anyway.

Bottom line - I think punishing parents who don't teach their children English at home is borderline fascist. But that's just me.

[Spangle]

52. How does this relate?

Did your Grand father immigrate here? Or are you saying that your father came from a family who had been here for several generations and yet he didn't know English until he was taught in school?

YOu totaly skipped that main part of what I was discussing. And when right into what we all ready know. We CAN teach these kids. But it was set up to teach immigrant familys. NOt each generaton afterwards. Was you taught english at home and was your children taught english at home? If your family continued speaking german at home and expecting the children to be taught english at home, then your comments would have related. But you didn't include the information.

And you pointed out why this is a problem. You said the langague can be taught by 3rd grade. Hmmm.. They missed alot that their peers learned during the previous grades. And that might have something to do with getting them to a higher level of language so that they CAN preform to the level of their peers. And your right, those things are taught at school. Starting in the early grades.

The key is wither or not the parents are doing this by choice. If the parent can not function in an english speaking world, then it's not THEIR CHOICE, now is it? This would be an immigrant family or children of immigrants.

Personaly, I think alot of things now called 'child abuse" is over the top.

ON the flip side of all this. I can tell you storys were children only speak english and was abused by the school system for saying they can not speak another language. They are ridicualed for taking spanish or french, etc.. The school treating them like they are taking these classes for an "easy A".

Which is part of my point. We ASSUME we are only talking about immigrants or their children when we read these storys or talk about this issue.

What I am saying is that the forms we have people fill out do not tell the truthful story. And we assume that people who are hispanic and they speak spanish in the home, that they do not speak and read english very well. Children from these homes are put in ESL spots that would better benifit other students and the money better spent. These types of what I call false forms throw statistics totaly off. It pads the number of people who can't speak english fluently.

Another point that is being totaly missed. If a grand child of an immigrant can not speak english, then something IS wrong. Children tend to learn the language of their playmates. Such a child must be kept totaly away from children who are not "like" that child. Not always on purpose. But it could mean that the family isn't intragrating into society very well. Either the family is practicing segration or they are being segrated from the society they live in.

As a democrat, that should be a heads up.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

11. I have mixed feelings about this as well

At the age of 15, without knowing one word of English, I ended up (long story) in a rural North Carolina high school within two weeks of my arrival in the U.S. By the time the spring semester rolled around, I had gained a decent command of English, enough to guarantee my graduation in 2 years and to pursue college studies. My parents and I did not speak English in the home, nor did I attend ESL classes, primarily because they did not exist at the school. How did I do it? I interacted with people everyday, I did my homework, I read books in English and I even forced myself to do crosswords in English, so that I could learn as fast as I could, because my final objective was to succeed.

I did encounter anti-foreign sentiments at my high school. In fact, I was pretty much shunned by my classmates, except for the theater/music crowd.

I think that if someone who does not know English wants to learn it well enough to succeed, he/she can do that; however, doing so takes a lot of effort and energy. I also think that it helped being surrounded by English speakers everywhere I went, rather than going back to a non-English speaking community after school.

Plenty of immigrants have learned English successfully without the aid of ESL classes or sympathetic classmates. In fact, many immigrants of the past were discriminated against, poor and uneducated, yet their children have made it.

Learning English in no way means forgetting about where you came from or your native language. I am an Italian citizen to this day, I speak Italian everyday professionally and with my family and I will never cease to be Italian.

[Bono71]

18. As a cuban, I agree that learning English is a must and

I think most hispanics (the ones I know, anyway) want their kids to speak/write it fluently. It is the way for us to attain success.

That stated, a little help will never be turned away. So, if the states and localities can find ways to better educate (and help our people learn the language that will lead to higher paying wages) I am all for it.

Learning English is absolutely a must.

[ThorsHammer]

42. Great last line, my thoughts exactly (nt)

[Maestro]

34. I hear this story all the time

First I want to congratulate you for learning English. However, you have come to a new country with a good basis in your first language; therefore, you were able to take on the second.

I am referring to children who have had little or no schooling and are entering our pre-schools and elementary schools not knowing English. We must teach them to be literate in their first langauge since this is the language in which they process information. Doing this, the children can transfer literacy skills from one language to the other.

Learning English is a must, but I want to teach a child to be able to think as well.

For more info look at this debate: DU Bilingual Debate

[AndyTiedye]

47. Some People Can Learn Other Languages Easily, Some Can't

I would not have been able to do what you did, no matter how hard I tried.

I did very well in school -- At or near the top of the class in everything except foreign languages. I did very badly at those.
The interest and the effort were there, but the ability wasn't.
If everything were taught in a foreign language, I would have been
largely deprived of an education.

Not everyone can just pick up languages the way you did.

Public education must accommodate all children. Not only is it the law,
and the right thing to do, but it is essential to democracy.

[Igel]

58. On one view, it's

mostly desire (lack of inhibition) and proper exposure. Krashen.

My problem with bilingual education is that it's gonna be biased. Who wants a job where your goal is to become unemployed? And in my limited experience, the bilingual ed teachers-in-training believe that they shouldn't shift the kids' language, they should preserve it.

Moreover, having tutored Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Russians in English--*none* of which have been up for bilingual education, simply because their numbers don't "justify" it--I get annoyed when "bilingual" education almost always = Spanish education. It's possible to design ESL classes that do not depend on a kid's L1, but advocacy groups don't exist for the non-majority minority kids.

[AndyTiedye]

60. ?

> On one view, it's mostly desire

We hear that view a lot from gym teachers and Republicans.

> (lack of inhibition)

Not sure what you mean by this, except that shy people would
be at a big disadvantage attempting to learn a strange language
in an immersion situation. Not the same thing as desire (or
lack thereof) at all.

> and proper exposure.

Obvious.

> Krashen.

?Krashen?

> My problem with bilingual education is that it's gonna be biased.

Fix that problem, then.

> Who wants a job where your goal is to become unemployed?

Not much danger of that. Growing market and they can't outsource it!

> And in my limited experience, the bilingual ed teachers-in-training
> believe that they shouldn't shift the kids' language, they should
> preserve it.

That is why it is called "bilingual". That said, it should actually
*be* bilingual, teaching those kids to be bilingual. Educating
these kids entirely in their native language is not bilingual education.
They should be educated in their native language AND English.

> Moreover, having tutored Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Russians in
> English--*none* of which have been up for bilingual education,
> simply because their numbers don't "justify" it--I get annoyed when
> "bilingual" education almost always = Spanish education. It's
> possible to design ESL classes that do not depend on a kid's L1,

Do you do that? How well does it work? How much longer does it
take to learn that way than if at least a little of the instruction
is done in the student's native language?

[Igel]

66. I don't agree with the view.

I just state it because it's gaining popularity and because it's an idea worth exploring.

"Krashen" is the best I can do for a link, since most of his work is on dead tree. Stephen Krashen is the big proponent of the view. USC faculty. I think he's emeritus. Ardent liberal for, oh, 4 decades or so, maybe longer. He'd shit a brick if he heard you call him either a gym teacher or a Republican. He argues against the usual idea of a "critical period", ~12-13 years of age, at which language learning suddenly becomes harder.

"Inhibition" isn't shyness. It's just that: inhibition. Kids make tons of mistakes, and don't mind. Adults mind, and so they're inhibited from practicing a non-native language. The argument is that if you don't mind making mistakes, have a reasonable motivation to learn a language, and have proper exposure to it, a 30-year-old should learn just as well as a 3-year-old. Like I said, I don't buy it, but it's apparently caught on in some language-education circles.

As for fixing the problem, it can't be done. Pick a typical city elementary school with 15-30 languages spoken by immigrants. I'd hate to have that many bilingual teachers in an elementary school; I'd also hate to have to bus the kids from all over a city to yield critical mass.

ESL is peripheral to what I've studied. I do know that most ESL degree programs produce fairly language-neutral teachers: lots of ESL classes are mixed language. It probably takes a bit longer than targeting the teaching to users of a specific language, and makes no effort to produce "balanced bilinguals" or bilinguals of any kind.

[Maestro]

64. @Igil

You are sorely misinformed. In academic study after academic study, bilingual ed has proven its efficacy over any sort of English immersion program. You are also wrong about the idea that bilingual ed is just for Hispanics. Granted, most bilingual programs are, but that is because of the overwhemingly large numbers of Spanish speaking Hispanics in the US when compared to Asians and other ethnic groups. It is mistaken to believe that Asians do not benefit from bilingual ed. In my school district we offer bilingual classes to Vietnamese and Spanish speaking Hispanics. Other areas of the country offer bilingual ed to Chinese speakers and speakers of indigenous languages. Did you know that modern bilingual ed started because of pressure from Chinese groups in California not Hispanics?

Moreover, bilingual ed does not mean Spanish education. It means the use of two languages in the classroom or in more precise terms the use of the native language to develop L1 literacy skills that transfer to English. Just as young English speaking kids do not develop literacy overnight, neither do the second language learners. They need time which is what many do not want to give them.

I spent my day in the classroom reinforcing Spanish literacy as a bridge to English literacy. I wanted to assure myself and the parents of these children that I teaching children to be literate, thinking human beings. If bilingual ed=Spanish education and by your comment I am assuming that you mean that do not learn English, then how could my kids do this?









The above are thinking maps that we teach children to use when analyzing text. These are third graders.

Here are some of the kids. In fact, many went on to excel in the English Gifted and Talented classroom.

Here are two absolutely incredibly smart boys. Both which are perfectly bilingual and excelling now in the Gifted English classroom.



One phenomonally smart girl who came from Mexico and entered school in 2nd grade here and by the end of third with me she was showing signs of being extremely gifted. She qualified for our gifted program in Spanish and now she is in our English Gifted program in fifth grade.



The girl you see here comes from a family from whom I have taught all the children. She was the last and if I may say, the most gifted. Her oldest brother who graduates this year from high school was also tagged gifted.



Kids do in fact learn and learn better in bilingual programs. End of story, period. Many times though conservative districts are unwillingly to implement the program correctly and therefore they reap what they sow.

Here are some more links:

Language Policy I suggest you the books from this gentleman's website.

My bilingual debate page

My bilingual research page

[Igel]

67. I wasn't arguing against you.

I was arguing a few other things. Skilled teachers can do wonders. And many teachers are rabid defenders of their kids; this is a good thing.

But too many kids start bilingual ed and are still in it years later. That oughtn't be, when kids really can pick up languages quickly. Proof? Many of the Vietnamese, Cambodian and Russian young adults I've met came here in their teens (or earlier), had no bilingual programs (since they weren't in sufficient numbers), and succeeded. True, this is completely anecdotal, and the ones I knew were mostly in college.

I don't think I said that bilingual ed was just for Spanish speakers. (Sorry, I'm a west-coaster.) If I did, sorry. It's clearly the dominant variety, and in many discussions they're synonyms.

My problem with bilingual ed is primarily that lots of kids are left out, and to remedy this would require either lots of bussing to get them to a school with sufficient numbers to justify a language-specific teacher, or lots of bilingual educators with ludicrously small classes. Neither are cost effective or would be implementable in any school district I've lived in.

I have no quibble with the literacy studies (although I'm not personally aware of any dealing with the transfer of character-based literacy skills to alphabetic writing systems, although from some studies going the other way I suspect it would depend on age). It's just that it would be more fair to spread the ESL net as wide as possible and to have English-only ESL classes rather than let the stray Hausa or Aymara speaker fend for him/herself. The current system tells the Russian immigrant's child, "Welcome to America, where we're all equal. Oh, yes, that's right, the Latinos get their own classes, but you speak Russian, so you don't get any help." Sounds much suckier than I intended, but still makes the point.

[Maestro]

75. I'm sorry. I thought you were attacking

My apologies.

As far as others succeeding without bilingual ed, there are many other factors that affect a child's success besides in which languages instruction is provided. How old was the child when he or she emigrated to the US? What kind of literacy base did the child already have in the native language? Did the parents support the child academically in the home? Did they provide de facto bilingual education in that they explained concepts in the native language to the child while the child did English work? Are the parents even literate? Does one or both of the parents speak even a little of English?

As far as grouping Latinos in special classes, this is done for other students as well and in the case of Latinos is based on a linguistic reason. Other reasons for grouping children include giftedness, learning problems (spec. ed.), behavioral problems, etc... Moreover, all kids are welcome in school and any school or district that shows any desire to serve its population would welcome what the child brings to the table. If a district serves a high language minority student population and that population does not meet the requirements for bilingual education, then they can show support for them by embracing their native language making them feel important, providing books in the library system of the district that are written in that native language. Unfortunately, many states have public school library systems that are woefully insufficient. California is known to have one of the worst for example.

Oh and our bilingual classes on the average have from between 15-25 usually. No small classes in my area. The only incredibly small classes we have are the gifted classes at times and our deaf ed. classes.

[donco6]

19. Any Democratic OCR lawyers out there?

The thing that gets districts off the dime on language-related issues, esp. wrt Mexicans, Hispanics, Chicano/as, etc. is an OCR complaint. The laws already EXIST to force schools to deal appropriately with the problem. They just need someone to file a complaint - usually a student or parent of a student. You could blanket the states with complaints in a very short time with not a lot of effort.

[Maestro]

41. Well Shrub with his discriminatory agenda

ended the Bilingual Education Act and is basically giving children only three years to learn a language academically and perform academically in that second language at the same levels as native speakers. It's ludicrous. Effin * can't even speak English yet, his first language and his Spanish is just a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even his nephew, whom the admin throws out form time to time to appeal to Hispanics, speaks Spanish with an obvious English accent. It is so obvious he does not feel comfortable with it.

[msgadget]

23. The south doesn't want to teach immigrant children but they want their

parents for cheap labor. Not surprising when they barely want to teach the American born minority.

[tx_dem41]

26. I didn't realize that immigrant populations only live...

in the South. :eyes:

[QC]

27. Of course, New Yorkers welcome all immigrants with open arms.

http://www.bbcworld.com/content/talkingmovies_archive_06_2004.asp?pageid=665&co_pageid=3

The story on the ground is somewhat more complicated than snap judgments based on stereotypes would suggest. My hometown in Alabama has experienced a very rapid influx of immigration, and there has been little open resentment. Area churches have set up Spanish language services and charities are also doing their part. You hear some grumbling now and then from individuals, but there has been remarkably little public discontent.

Fast immigration does put a lot of pressure on schools and public services, however, and that's something that seldom gets discussed. When you have schools so broke that children have to bring their own toilet paper, suddenly having to set up a bilingual ed program is very difficult, if not impossible. The same pressure applies to public hospitals, many of which have been hit hard or even gone under, since the companies that import immigrant workers (a chicken plant, in my hometown) seldom provide benefits.

As for "the south" wanting cheap labor, you're using way too broad a brush. Big business wants cheap labor, of course, but most people in the south are unskilled and semiskilled workers themselves and thus being displaced by even cheaper labor. And that does seem to be the government/business strategy right now: outsource whenever possible and import cheap labor to drive down wages in the remaining jobs that cannot be shipped out.

[msgadget]

31. Fair enough, I concur . But ,the article highlighted the South

so I did as well. I fully realize immigrants are not as welcome ANYWHERE in the US as the president would have us believe. ESL departments locally (Northeast) haven't been able to keep up with the influx for many, many years. I recall speaking to the head of an ESL department 8 years ago who expressed these very sentiments and immigration has exploded since that time.

I also agree wholeheartedly that it is not the individual region championing illegal immigration but big (and now small) business in order to remain 'competitive' because it's an issue I'm extremely pissed off about. Again, I was referring strictly to the region featured in the article.

We're on the same page.

[QC]

36. It's nice to see that we agree!

I also have a lot of sympathy for people who come here to provide for their families and run into adversity. It comes from working in a migrant ed program one summer in California. These are, for the most part, great people who work hard and do right by their families.

But I also feel for the people already here in low-skill jobs who now have to deal with even more competition. Mass immigration is hurting them bad and we need to do something to help them, too.

How can we continue to provide opportunities for people from other parts of the world without having those same people used as a wedge against our own poor and working-class workers? That's a conversation we need to have on the Left, and soon, because we already know what Big Money Inc. and their minions in the GOP want to do about it.

[msgadget]

43. Don't get me started, I rant about this on a daily basis!

It's unfair to ALL parties concerned and the very notion of 'competition' has been bastardized by business - big, small, multinational - by including undocumented, cheap labor in the equation. Doing so drives down the wage base for everybody, even without a WMT. It's a disgrace. Think about it, NAFTA went into affect for trade with Mexico...yet Mexico, not content to have our manufacturing jobs, now wants, basically, NO BORDERS at all. Neither president gives a damn about the quality of life of their citizens. How can Latinos become a part of the 'ownership society' if we can't educate their children??

I was raised by an immigrant, I'm a minority and I'm a liberal so it goes against my very nature to speak out against immigration but, under these circumstances, I have to.

[tx_dem41]

48. I can't argue with anything you said in this post.

It is a painful issue for true liberals.

[DebinTx]

24. The southeast will have to hire bilingual teachers.

Just as we do here in the southwest. The SC has ruled that immigrant children are entitled to an education, so the schools have to do it.

I will say this though that I question the results of that study which show them descriminating, hence a high drop out rate. We have done bilingual in Texas for many years yet the drop out rate is still quite high for hispanics. There has to be something else going on because the Asian community does not have high drop out rates.

[Bono71]

28. This is true..and believe me, we are banging our

collective heads together in the community to figure out how to achieve the same success other groups have, including Asians.

[Spangle]

37. Simple

It goes back to family. Asians understand the need for an education and as a family work to ensure the children are educated. Parents, grand-parents, uncles, etc.

Not everyone does that. Including whites. When poor, kids will drop out to help the family survive. Or they know they are on their own, and as such don't feel like they could make it through college.

Going back 100 years ago or so and look at the south. Many parents didn't truely understand the need for educating their kids. THEY didn't have an education and survived. Succh parents are not going to be totaly supportive of education. Except for the basics. They know collge costs $$$ and they will not be able to put their kids in college. So they put their kids MENTALY on the college track. They think they are being realistic.

However, studys show that if you expect more from kids, then they will strive to met that goal. IT's imporant for parents to expect a college education from their kids. It's kind of hard for a parent who hasn't graduated high school to truely accept that it's possible for their own child to do.

[Withywindle]

46. THis is true...

I know plenty of native-born white people who never got past 9th grade either.

The sad fact is, lots and lots of schools in the south don't have the resources to provide a decent education in ONE language. What do you do if you're a poorly-trained, poorly-paid, already overworked teacher who has some new kids in your class who don't speak a word of English and you don't speak a word of Spanish?

There are school systems that try. I grew up in rural SW VA, and my mom was actually a high school Spanish teacher there for many years (She's Latina, yes--but Brazilian: Portuguese is her mother tongue, not Spanish. Spanish is her third language, and she got the teaching job even as she was studying it! She'd been a teacher's aide for years so she had experience, and they were desperate). There definitely is a large-ish influx of Latino immigrants, and at least in that school system there is a real attempt to mainstream them -- not only teaching them English, but teaching other kids a little Spanish to help communicate with them. That's very important: kids need to be able to establish relationships with peers to succeed. Unfortunately, language instruction doesn't start until high school. It's not treated as important in American culture in general, and that hurts everybody. It's hard to expect a school system with no money to go very far above and beyond federal guidelines when they get no support for doing so.

[Bono71]

49. Agree...its all about parenting and where the values are...

I remember telling my mother when I was in college I was going to drop out because a construction firm I worked for during the summers wanted to pay me $25,000 (this was many moons ago, and seemed like a lot at the time!) to become a foreman.

I thought my mother was going to kill me by her reaction...I didn't drop out.

[Maestro]

39. I have done research on this

The reason the drop-out rate is still high for Hispanics in Texas is because 1) Bilingual ed is done incorrectly by mostly conservative districts who force-feed English on the children way too early so they children learn to speak English but have no academic basis because literacy requires much more than just being able to speak. The students learn English but spent years learning English and fell behind academically. And 2) Most Hispanics are not in bilingual education in Texas; therefore, bilingual ed is part of the answer not the problem.

This is an argument against bilingual ed that we hear all the time and it is simply not true. If bilingual ed were truly implemented correctly by the mostly conservative leaders or principals in certain school districts, Hispanics would learn English well and be academically proficient in that language. Many of the children that left my classroom went on to the Gifted and Talented program in English!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These kids are eager to learn, we just need to use what they bring to the table. Subtractive bilingualism (taking primarily Spanish and replacing it with English) has never worked. Additive bilingualism (academic instruction in both languages) is the way to go!!!!!!!

One of many academic investigations supporting bilingual ed

[Maestro]

51. kick

:kick:

[Bouncy Ball]

63. Great article, I could have told them this years ago.

I used to live in Georgia, about 10 years ago. There really wasn't as much of a Hispanic population then, but I could see they would be totally unprepared.

Even here, in Texas, we still don't handle bilingual and ESL populations very well. Teachers, when among other teachers, voice racist opinions and bitch and moan that they "just need to learn English."

I always tell them to move to France and be completely up to speed on reading and writing French in three months or less. While your teachers don't help you much.

In some schools, there are ESL classes, in others there aren't. In some there are immersion classrooms, in others there aren't. It's very inconsistent.

On the plus side, there have been many ESL success stories. Kids who were just determined not just to be proficient in English, but really good at it. At one middle school in my district last year, the top three spellers were all Spanish speaking only until they were in elementary school. One of them went on to win region and he didn't speak English until he was NINE.

Another attitude I hate is the one that says that immigrants "refuse" to speak English. I have yet to meet these people. Every immigrant I have ever known has worked hard to speak English, to assimilate. Heck, the middle school kids I worked with in the ESL program would DENY, with a very thick Spanish accent, when speaking to other kids, that they could speak Spanish.

"I don e-speak no e-spanish."

It was sad. I always encouraged them to keep their Spanish skills, as bilingualism comes in handy in the working world and in many jobs, you get hiring preference and paid more for it. But they WANTED to lose their Spanish. They wanted to fit in so badly. They'd even make fun of other kids who were newer to America, calling them "mojos."

The point about parents is DEAD on. Parents who are limited in English feel VERY intimidated by their kids' schools and tend to NOT want to come to school under any circumstances. I've had them apologize to me for their lack of English skills, and once a mom apologized, in Spanish, for her rough hands (her job dishwashing at a restaurant).

[Maestro]

65. Great post

And I agree.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. Well read the GOOD news, just for once:

"The report also cited some examples of innovative ways being used in the South to include Spanish-speaking students and help them succeed in an English-speaking school."

"In North Carolina, for example, teachers tried an experiment to teach tolerance to their American students. For one day, all signs in a classroom were written in Spanish, and teacher was brought in who spoke only Spanish. The Spanish-speaking students were the only ones able to answer questions and follow the lesson, teaching their white peers that the immigrants are not stupid."

"Of course the Spanish-speaking students were raising their hands, answering all the questions. It was sort of the reverse of usual," Wainer said.

[DemBones DemBones]

71. By the way, I KNOW that as long ago as 1990, Georgia

schools were working to hire more ESL (English as a Second Language) teachers. I'm no longer teaching and don't have kids in public school anymore so I don't know what the local school situation is today. That principal in Gainesville sounds like an asshat, though, publicly dissing other educators like that. If there are problems in his school, he should do something about them, rather than mouth off to the media.

In the Atlanta Archdiocese, many Catholic churches have a large number of Hispanic parishioners and many programs are provided for them, including day care programs, ESL classes, financial help for the needy, and Spanish language Masses. Nuns live within Hispanic communities to work with the people and for the past ten years or so, it's been required for anyone entering the priesthood here to speak Spanish. My parish has a sister parish in Mexico and our priest goes there to improve his Spanish in the summers. No doubt Protestant churches are also helping the immigrants in many ways.

The schools probably need to do more (don't they always?) but with No Child Left Behind being mandated but unfunded, I'd guess money is the problem.

[napi21]

72. It's a much more serious problem in Gainesville than other parts of Ga.

I live in a small twon about 6 miles south of Gainesville, and most of the Mexican immegrants came to Gainesville because of available work at the chicken processing plants there. I doubt that principal is talking about a minority of students in his school, but a large majority. I'm a bit surprised at the lack of spanish speaking teachers though. This isn't a sudden insurgence of these kids, it's been steadily increasing, but they have been here for quite a few years.

[DemBones DemBones]

73. Lots of Hispanic people in Dalton, Cedartown, Rome, Calhoun, too.

Zartic Frozen Foods in Cedartown and Rome are major employers, as are textile mills in Dalton, Calhoun areas, too.

Principals can make sure their teachers are well-informed and work to get them the training they need. If classroom teachers haven't been trained to work with non-English speakers, it's unfair to criticize them for not doing it well. I don't know why the schools don't have more ESL teachers when they were expanding those programs 10 and 15 years ago.

[Swamp Rat]

74. ¡Huey puta! ¡Que tonteria!

Es muy facil aprender el español. Necesitan emplear a los nuevos profesores que pueden hablar español o entrenar a los que querrían aprender.