GI Admits to Killing Hurt Iraqi Teenager

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20041211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. soldier pleaded guilty Friday to killing a severely wounded Iraqi teenager in what investigators say may have been a mercy killing, the latest of several similar incidents that have undercut efforts by the United States to win support among Iraqis and defeat a rampant insurgency.


The conviction of Staff Sgt. Johnny M. Horne Jr., 30, of Winston-Salem, N.C., comes almost a month after the Nov. 13 killing of another wounded Iraqi found lying in a Fallujah mosque among the bodies of several people killed during a weeklong operation to retake that city from insurgents.


Horne is the first of four soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment, based in Fort Riley, Kan., to face court-martial on charges of murdering Iraqis during fighting in Baghdad's impoverished Sadr City in August.


This week in Germany, a U.S. tank company commander was ordered court-martialed after being accused of shooting and killing a critically injured Iraqi driver for radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on May 21 near Kufa, 100 miles south of Baghdad.

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[Just Me]

1. Whoah! Watch out for the imposition of "mercy killing" on any human being

Did the teenager ASK to be killed? Otherwise, imposition of death CANNOT be classified as a "mercy killing",...at least with respect to human beings who are supposed to be graced with the freedom of CHOICE!!!!

[The Straight Story]

3. What if he had not been old enough to ask? (n/t)

[thekoan]

4. ...i think you're overreacting, eh?

The military tribunal heard witness testimony that troops fired on a group of Iraqi men placing homemade bombs along a road in Sadr City. Other soldiers arrived to find a burning truck and casualties around it.

Witnesses said the soldiers, including Horne, tried to rescue the teenager from inside the vehicle, but decided he was beyond help because of severe burns and abdominal wounds. A criminal investigator said the soldiers decided "the best course of action was to put (the victim) out of his misery."

...so let's think about it... the kid's got severe burns and abdominal wounds... what could that mean possibly? could it mean that he had widespread third degree burns? could it mean he'd been disemboweled?

...i'm not saying it's so... but i am saying you're jumping the gun in your condemnation... if in fact he was wounded in something similar to the way i described (and i think he was. why else would they have mentioned the "abdominal wounds"?), then wouldn't you think a "mercy killing" necessary?

...or would you have him just let the kid lie there in his own blood, with the smell of his own burnt flesh and innards scenting his final moments?

...furthermore, witnesses said he tried to help the kid out of the truck, eh? why rescue him only to pop him shortly afterward?

...so you're covered in burns. all you know is pain. and there's a funny, wet feeling all over your stomach (well, what you can _feel_ of your stomach). there's a terrible smell and you know it's burnt flesh and you know it's yours. you wanna endure that pain even longer?

...we are against this war, but we must not be rabid. we must not jump the gun. to do so is to give the other side further ammunition with which to demonize us.

[UpInArms]

5. and just who annointed you God? ...... eom

[thekoan]

14. ...i'm assuming...

...that you had some lovely response to my comments that just happened to get cut out by the evil "internets"...

...if, however, that is not the case... no one appointed me god... i'm just trying to look at this situation in a manner that doesn't immediately accuse bush of being the great-granddaddy of all evils...

...that said, i am against this war. i think bush is a terrible president and a worse person. despite all that, though, i'd hate to be a severely burned, possibly disemboweled person lying on a roadside... in all likelihood, i'd ask the nearest passerby to kill me... and, if i couldn't manage to speak, i'd hope they had the wherewithall to realize that i couldn't possibly want to continue living in that condition...

...that's not to say i can read the kid's mind... i'm just postulating...

-kev

[VegasWolf]

39. Mercy killing by a soldier with no medical background is playing god. n/t

[Just Me]

6. Over-reacting? This president's brother blocks "mercy killing",...

,...of a woman who had expressed her wishes to her husband to vanquish "life support" if she had no capacity to self-function. It's okay for him to demand life when she and her husband have suffered for like ever.

Who the fuck is anyone to decide the life or death of anyone?

Allowing this woman's wishes would be humane. Yet, somehow, the "mercy killing" (or death sentence, whatever one may perceive it) is A-O-K if a member of an occupying force determines this particular is or is not worth continued existence.

It just goes to show how callous human beings, especially those who believe their value/judgment somehow surpasses all other human value/judgment,...can be.

Disgusting.

[thekoan]

15. ...you're dealing with...

...too many degrees of separation... there is the soldier... then there is bush... then there is............ bush's brother???

...yes, i agree that the woman in florida deserves to die with dignity... (if it is the case that she is incapacitated beyond a shadow of a doubt)... but, no matter how much we like to pick on the bush family and lump them together, that has _nothing_ to do with this case...

...let's assume the iraqi teen was laying on the ground in the position i postulated earlier (that is: 3rd degree burns over a large portion of his body. partially or totally eviscerated (remember: abdominal wounds))...

...are you telling me it _wouldn't_ be humane to kill him? he's not going to live. why make him suffer that much longer?

...don't get me wrong... if the soldier just popped him in a manner similar to the shooting of the soldier in fallujah, then that's wrong and should be prosecuted... but if the kid was wounded like i think he was wounded, then it WAS a mercy killing, because what human being would want to see another human suffer in that state?

[Bouncy Ball]

7. Uh

you still are NOT to shoot and kill injured people in war.

That little quaint Geneva Convention and all. Silly stuff that, eh?

[thekoan]

16. yeah, i know... but it's tough, you know?

...on the one side, you've got the geneva conventions, a grand achievement indeed. a testament to the common humanity of all us... well... humans...

...but on the other side...

...you've got a kid... prime of his life... delirious from the incredible pain... doesn't speak your language... but he's screaming all the same... you know he's going to die... and you can let him suffer out the rest of his life... or you can spare him some amount of pain...

...i'm sorry... i hate bush... i hate the war... i despise conservatives... i loathe jingoism and the deification of the military... but i still think that (if the kid was injured in the way i imagine him being injured) this was the right thing to do.

-kev

[Just Me]

8. Oh, yeah,...check out the pictures of our soldiers, burnt flesh and all,..

,...being kept alive,...whether they want to live or not.

Don't patronize me with all that "giving ammunition to the other side" bullshit.

BE REAL. BE TRUE. "Hard metal jacket" (that the "dreamers" wanted to pretend was not real). This is life. This is humanity. If you are an enemy to humanity,...to freedom and democracy,...you will continue to imply that I am somehow "the bad guy".

Pro-life, spreading democracy and freedom,...my ass!!!!

[thekoan]

17. "BE REAL. BE TRUE."

...in any case... i do not mean to patronize... this is a genuine concern... i cringe for the left whenever one of our own overreacts to something or another... the whole "was bush wired during debates" scandal was a weeks-long cringefest for me... so i cringe to see people jumping on this in the manner they do...

...bottom line, we don't know the full story... i won't pretend to know it... but i do have ideas as to how this could be seen as a mercy killing (given the (barebones) description we get from news reports...

>>This is life. This is humanity. If you are an enemy to humanity,...to
>> freedom and democracy,...you will continue to imply that I am somehow
..."the bad guy".

...for one: i hope you are aware of how remarkably similar that statement is in sentiment to "you're either for us or against us". but that's neither here nor thre...

...we _should_ be concerned with not giving our enemies political ammo... that's "politics"... learn to play it.

[NNN0LHI]

20. What makes Iraqis "our" (your) enemy?

Have Iraqis attacked you or your country? Did they ever even have plans to do so? So really, why are the Iraqis your enemy? Is it that they will not capitulate to a foreign army's demands while in their own country? (Would you if the situation were reversed?) They can't leave. They are at home. The US war machine, on the other hand being the aggressor in this situation can leave any time they want to. I am not_being_facetious here. I truly want to know. What makes the Iraqis_your_enemy? And so you know in advance, the Iraqis are NOT my enemy.

Don

[thekoan]

34. actually...

...i don't believe i ever said the iraqis _were_ my enemy... i think you're jumping a li'l too hard on this one, hoss... trynna get ammo where there is none... i could be wrong, but i believe i said in my original post that "we're against this war"... thus, what then is the likelihood that someone who'd say that would still consider the iraqis the enemy? c'mon... realistically...

...in any case... no... i don't think the iraqis are our enemies. i meant our political enemies on the other side of the ideological spectrum. again, don't get me wrong: i'm no bush/military/war apologist... i just believe we must be cautious in how we react to things because they use any misjudged overreaction on our part to further portray us as loonies... and it _works_ in the circles they preach to...

...having said all that... i must reiterate that i don't know the specifics of the case. i don't know how wounded the kid was. i don't know the soldier's mindstate. but if the kid was severely wounded and in extreme anguish and there was nothing anyone could do save let him lie there cooking and screaming... well, hell, i'd think a mercy killing was the most humane thing to do...

[Bouncy Ball]

22. I don't think you understand

"mercy killings" have no place in military law or any code of conduct.

They just don't. You are NOT to shoot an unarmed, injured person. Period. The laws do not make concessions for "mercy killings."

The Geneva Convention and the UCMJ are not laws to be carried out only in ideal conditions, they are laws to be carried out at ALL times.

[thekoan]

35. ...i understand...

...and i'd still condone a mercy killing if the kid was injured in the manner i described before...

...i'm aware that there's no concession for mercy killing in the geneva conventions... that's why you've never heard me arguing the legality of this event... i know it was illegal... my original contention was with your reaction...

...my question then is this: what would you have done? you have a kid lying there burnt to a crisp and all he's doing is screaming and you know he isn't going to live... but for now he's not showing any signs of dying soon and you know the rest of his life is going to be agony...

...so what would you have done? remember there's nothing you can do to help the kid. so what do you do?

[Bouncy Ball]

37. I follow the UCMJ and the Geneva Convention.

I don't shoot him. If the action allows me, I try to help him as much as I can. There are plenty of stories of troops easing the pain and the dying of a wounded civilian in their last moments. But they are not allowed to shoot them.

The point of those laws are that they didn't want soldiers dispensing "justice" in the field. There's a good reason for that, as that is a big, wide, nasty door to open.

That's evidenced by the fact that he was found guilty of violating said laws.

Imagine if you only had to say "well he was injured and I determined he was mortally injured, so I just took him out of his misery."

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Would you feel the same way

if it was a US soldier? My guess is that there would be universal outrage if a badly wounded US soldier had his brains blown out in order to "put him out of his misery".

Maybe not from you though.:shrug:

[thekoan]

18. ...

...the difference being that our soldiers are likely receiving much better care than do these wounded iraqis... i can't say for certain.. and if i'm wrong, please correct... but it seems likely...

...that said: no, it wouldn't make a difference to me if it were one of our soldiers... if someone _genuinely_ puts another person out of their excruciating (inevitably life-ending) agony, then that action is excusable and humane and i dare you to say otherwise.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. Again,

it has no place in military law or code of conduct and THAT is what this soldier is being tried under.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. Actually, we are supposed to administer medical care

to wounded Iraqis.

And if it wouldn't make a difference to you if one of our wounded soldiers was shot like a dog to "put him out of his misery", well, wouldn't that kind of "make the left look bad"? I thought that we weren't supposed to take any position that might have that effect. I wish you would get your story straight.

[Swamp Rat]

12. What do you mean WE?

[thekoan]

19. by "we" i mean...

...we left-leaning/leftist/ultraleft denizens/frequenters of this site... i hit the du boards on the daily to see what's up in the world and am rarely disappointed...

...simply put... by "we" i mean all of us... i hope none of you are thinking i'm just some freeper lurker or something... i am a leftist and i believe it would be within the interest of the left to _not_ overreact to this supposed mercy killing until more facts are known about the event.

...don't get me wrong... if it turns out the soldier shot the guy in cold blood, i'll be among the first to condemn him.

[Swamp Rat]

26. I think you mean 'mercy murder'

After all, he was just charged and convicted with murder by his peers.

Will you condemn him now?

[Bouncy Ball]

25. thekoan look down here.

Here are the Geneva Conventions that apply to this case:

"Incurably wounded and sick prisoners of war whose mental or physical fitness seems to have been gravely diminished must be repatriated directly to their home countries. (Convention III, Art. 110)"

"The wounded and sick are to be collected and cared for by the party that has them in its power. (Convention I, Art. 3, Sec. 2)"

"The wounded cannot renounce their Geneva Convention protections. (Convention I, Art. 7)"


"In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)"

[Swamp Rat]

27. You beat me to it.

:)

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Nope, can't support the Geneva Convention.

Might make the left look bad, like we're all a bunch of extremists or over-reacting or somthin'.

[Bouncy Ball]

31. ....

off sarcasm?

[Crunchy Frog]

32. It was intended as sarcasm,

if that's what your asking. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.:)

[saigon68]

2. SUPPORT THE TROOPS

Kill a few Rag-Heads for Halliburton---

Get a medal.

Become a Cop when you come back.

Kill a few Liberal protesters at an anti-War demonstration. !!!!

[VegasWolf]

40. Ah! The great circle of life! n/t

[Endangered Specie]

9. My Lai?

[KingChicken]

11. Don't see the troops killing their own severly wounded casualties

But of course because it's Iraqi scum it's ok, just put him out of his misery like old yeller.

Please remind the troops that Iraqi's are not dogs, they are rather Human Beings, with families much like our own.

[NCN007]

36. the do it with morphine n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

38. Yep

what he said.

[Fire Bush]

13. I'm as against this "war" as anyone ...

Because this "war" has nothing to do with national security and because things like this happen in war. War is hell afterall.

But we can't sit here and pick apart incedents like this after we brainwash these kids, pump them full of drugs, and send them into some of the most hostile conditions imaginable.

[daleo]

21. Mercy killing is ok as long as it is in countries the U.S. has invaded

And as long as the recipients of mercy had previously been the recipients of U.S. bombs or bullets. Mercy killing for terminal cancer patients, on the other hand, is against God's law. It is all very simple really.

[NNN0LHI]

24. ..as long as it is in countries the U.S. has invaded..and has lots of oil

Details are important.

Don

[daleo]

28. It's true, that always smooths the way. n/t

[renaissanceguy]

33. We should shoot him.

See how he likes it.