Mormon Church Disciplines Author for Book

[emad]

Guardian

By TRAVIS REED

Associated Press Writer

SANDY, Utah (AP) - A former Mormon seminary teacher escaped excommunication after being put on trial for writing a book suggesting that early church history, considered sacred, was actually revised and embellished.

After a six-hour hearing before church leaders on Sunday, Grant Palmer was ``disfellowshipped,'' or temporarily suspended, meaning he will retain his membership but lose certain privileges, such as being able to go into temples or serve in an official church capacity.

Palmer, 64, published ``An Insider's View of Mormon Origins,'' in 2002, drawing a litany of criticism from Mormon academics.

Among other things, the book suggests church founder Joseph Smith did not actually translate the Book of Mormon ``by the gift and power of God'' from an ancient set of golden plates, as the church's followers believe. Palmer suggested Smith wrote it himself, leaning heavily on the King James Bible and personal experiences.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4670322,00.html

[MuseRider]

1. You do not want to question

the history, especially Joseph Smith's history. I once asked if anyone else thought that the rule against alcohol and tobacco came from the fact that Emma got sick of serving coffee all the time and having to clean up the tobacco spit off her table cloths since meetings were always at their house. It was not a good moment in my short Mormon life.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. ROFL

[RobertSeattle]

4. Reminds me of an old Mormon joke

"Mormon women don't like to smoke or drink but they sure like to ..."

[Kimber Scott]

7. I guess intolerance and bigotry really is universal. nt

[JNelson6563]

34. Did you know blacks couldn't be Mormons for ages?

The mark of Cain don't you know.....

[idiosyncratic]

46. I met a Utah man whose horse was named "Revelation."

When I commented on that unusual name, he said, with no hesitation or apology,

"He was born the year they let the N_ _ _ _ _ S in the church."


Living in Southern Utah was a very interesting experience.

[BikeWriter]

61. American indians were descended from Jews, too.

I know several Mormons who say they were raised with racism until a few years ago.

[fishwax]

118. It was actually the curse of Ham, rather than the mark of Cain

The story goes that Ham's progeny was cursed because when his father Noah was drunk and naked, Ham didn't look away as his other brothers did.

But you're right that they discriminated against African-Americans for ages. Blacks could actually attend the church, but they weren't allowed to hold the priesthood (all adult male members hold the priesthood) until the late 70s (!).

[Redleg]

35. Yes it is, and we at DU should know better.

I have to admit that I, having lived in Utah for most of my formative years, developed a kind of prejudice against Mormons. I often felt excluded and oppressed by my Mormon school mates and became resentful of the power the LDS church wields in Utah.

I do try very hard to not apply those negative stereotypes of Mormons because I know it is lazy and wrong to do so.

[MuseRider]

43. That is very

cool. I can only imagine how it must have been. I was a member, not born into it (long story I do not wish to admit to) and I can relate that even as a member just being from the outside was enough to make one feel like that. On the whole I think they are a group of very nice, well meaning people like most religious people. They believe things that are difficult for most to believe. They were persecuted horribly for that and they became very clannish partly in response to that. Looking into the group you can find every kind of person represented.

[BikeWriter]

62. Google Lamanites and Nephites sometime...

...if you have a strong stomach for racial discrimination!

[Redleg]

92. I know about that- but it doesn't justify us stereotyping them.

Not all Mormons are bigots.

[BikeWriter]

95. No, but their religion was founded on...

...fallacious theories about blacks and indians being evil, stupid, and unworthy.

[BikeWriter]

97. The Prophets of the Mormon Church have written literally reams...

...of racist tripe. They continued until near the end of the last century. More of it is at the url I supplied.

"In 1978, after decades of political wrangling and social turmoil, the Mormon church finally changed their policy barring people of African descent from being "ordained" with the priesthood. The church never admitted they were wrong to discriminate. Instead, they claimed that "God" had changed his mind on the topic, and that the church as a whole would now follow the latest decree from "God" himself, as revealed to his prophet and mouthpeice on Earth, Spencer W. Kimball."

"There is a curse on these aborigines of our country who roam the plains, and are so wild that you cannot tame them. They are of the House of Israel; they once had the Gospel delivered to them, they had the oracles of truth; Jesus came and administered to them after his resurrection, and they received and delighted in the Gospel until the fourth generation when they turned away and became so wicked that God cursed them with this dark and benighted and loathsome condition."

http://www.realmormonhistory.com/god&skin.htm#God%20Prefers%20Whites

[fishwax]

103. Sexist tripe as well

Women have no path to the afterlife except through the exaltation of their husbands. Their own merits are not considered.

I try to be tolerant of all people and all faiths, but when I see how thoroughly and consistently the experience of being raised mormon has screwed with my wife's sense of self-worth, I can't help but get angry. I've seen it in a lot of other female in-laws and friends as well.

[BikeWriter]

114. I'm sorry she's gone through that.

I knew almost nothing about Mormons until about three years ago when I helped a Partner of mine with a non-denominational religion forum. She is of a Canadian First Nations tribe and New Orleans Creole, and as fine and intelligent a Lady as I've ever met.
A poster peaked my curiousity by saying he was Mormon. I'd always heard they were mostly upstanding and responsible people. He astounded us by refering to the "negroid" peoples in their teachings. Things went downhill from there...

[genieroze]

117. Ouch. eom

[BikeWriter]

119. Yes'm, it ain't pretty.

:-(

[Zhade]

70. How tolerant should one be of a cult? Seriously.

Where's the line? I know from experience and historical research that Mormonism is a cult. There are many well-meaning Mormons, no question. But it's still a cult, and I personally think cults are dangerous for their members' ability to think critically - something the world needs more, not less, of.

I don't spend my days decrying Mormonism (though I could tell a lot of personal stories about how wonky it is), but I'm not going to pretend it's not a cult.

[BikeWriter]

73. Right on!

[Redleg]

93. How is Mormonism any different from any other fundamentalist faith?

Other than the fact it has its own scriptures. I lived in Utah for 15 years and have Mormon relatives and friends. The Mormon church nowadays is much too mainstream to be a cult. Certainly the faith has "strange" things about it. Certainly it started out in a very cultish way. But don't most new religions get derided as being "cults?"

I can't see criticizing people just for how they believe in God- as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me. What difference does it make if the Mormons are a cult or mainstream religion? Most of the members are born into the church and don't really choose it as adults.

[Kimber Scott]

94. Why don't you draw the line for us?

Mormons have as much right to practice their faith as I have not to. But, since you have all the answers, we'll just put our faith in you.


I stand by my original comment.

[progressiveBadger]

5. I'm totally going to ask my friend that n/t

[central scrutinizer]

39. Isn't "Mormon academics" an oxymoron

or should that be oxymormon. The problem with a cult whose founding dates back to the middle of the 19th century is that there are lots of historical records that belie their myths. But never let facts and research get in the way of mindless piety.

[MuseRider]

45. Pure faith.

That is what and all it is. I find faith difficult, I also found that being a smart ass was not coveted by the members.

[Zhade]

69. "I also found that being a smart ass was not coveted by the members."

I found that being queer wasn't, either. Are you aware of the "porn therapy" and shock treatments the church endorses to try to "cure" GLBT persons?

Disgusting.

[MuseRider]

83. That was one of the many

things that got me out of the church. There were so many reasons to leave but I could not belong to any organization that would speak or think that way about my friends or my brother. I was stunned by it, just totally stunned. I do not know about the porn therapy and the shock treatments, again I am shocked but not surprised.

[Zhade]

88. Check out this site, if you haven't before.

www.exmormon.org - lots of info on the "therapy".

[MuseRider]

89. Thanks

I did not know of this site. I am going to go check out the section on removing your name. I have not actively tried to do this. They do not annoy me but I do get mail from them and the occasional phone call or visit. One thing I have to say is they are at least polite when I explain to them that I have no wish to visit with them or become active.

[Zhade]

90. Agreed - even when I said I was done with them, they were polite.

Persistent, but polite.

One thing that always bothered me: the invasive methods of ensuring I was "tithing properly". Waaaaaaaaaay too "money-changers in the temple" for me.

[MuseRider]

91. You mean the "meetings"

with the bishop? Yes, those were a little odd.

[PurityOfEssence]

67. Look, Frank: a religion is just a cult that made it

If enough people swallow something, it's fact. Forget about logic, science or anything else.

So they're a young religion. They're doing well, aren't they? Lotsa money, lotsa power and control. There are 5 Mor(m)on Senators, including the pro-life Democratic Leader, and the power held by this group of whatevers is ever-increasing in Idaho, Nevada, and the heartlessland of Utah.

Religion hates thought. Religion hates doubt and difference; this religion is so successful because it cuts through all the niceties and just goes to the core of close-minded certainty. Those of other religions who like to distance themselves from extremists like these are doing little more than whistling in the woods; their cult is capable of essentially the same, and they shield themselves from that reality by some kind of confused and self-congratulatory elitism.

Believe what you will, but the very act puts awesome power in the hands of your fellow believers.

But, of course, Frank was right: "It can't happen here..."

[LiberalFighter]

57. Which wife was she? 1? 2? 3? 4? ???

[MuseRider]

59. The first.

I read once that he had around 40 wives but I have no idea what the real truth is.

Emma Smith #1

[derby378]

2. Can't help myself...

Lucy Harris: Smart, smart, smart!
Martin Harris: Dumb!

[Zhade]

71. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!

CLASSIC.

[slutticus]

84. ROTF.

So Martin went on back to Smith
Said the pages had gone away
Smith got mad and told Martin
He needed to go pray
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

[dhinojosa]

112. I'd sure love to see how many people got this...

:)

[Walt Starr]

6. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon?

It reads like a third grader wrote it!

:evilgrin:

[aikido15]

17. Yes it does...

It is bizarre!

[wordout]

28. yes. doctrine and covenants is *unusual* too.

i ask two 18 yr old elders why the book of mormon was written in king james english when that wasn't the tongue of the day, if not to give appearance of being a part of the earlier kjv translation. maybe joe was supplied with an outdated version of urine n thummim to do the translating from original hiramglyphics, i dunno. Anyway, the two elders were to confer with others and return with a sure answer but never did,lol.

[Ilsa]

8. That book about the murderer/forger,

I think the word salamander was in the title, indicated that church leaders were willing to pay top dollar for manuscripts that contradicted the church's current teachings. That is where the forger made his best money. The "suthentic" manuscripts were paid for, but he was expected to take a lower price for the good of the church. The forged heretical ones brought lots of money for the doc and his silence.

Does anyone remember the name of the book? It was written in the mid 1980's I think.

[juliagoolia]

10. More than one.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451401522/102-9410352-7436131?v=glance

Salamander is right though.

[Pegleg Thd]

27. I believe that you are talking about

the Mormon Murders.. I have a copy of that book.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Don't know if they're willing to pay...

but they definitely want them out of circulation. A friend of mine had a copy of the Book of Mormon from the 1850's or so, and a Mormon co-worker of his kept trying to get it from him because it differed from the current Book of Mormon.

[Must_B_Free]

106. The Salamander Letters

And when the story of this forgery and the fact that they got suckered into it was aboout to come out in the local Newspaper, the elders went and bought the paper and killed the story.

[juliagoolia]

9. Reminds me of researching my family tree.. and running up against

one of the biggest secrets in America.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre. My great x 3 grandfather's first cousins ( all cousins to each others) The Fanchers.. Were massacred along with a hundred plus (142) others when coaxed out of protection, disarmed, lined up and murdered by Mormons. Biggest domestic terrorist event prior to OKC in American history


http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/brondel/page1.htm

I went to their library(best in the world for genealogy) to ask about it and was gasped at, and got NO.. NONE, ZERO help doing the genealogy on the family or trying to put the story together.

They STILL whisper and lie about it. There are loads of well kept secrets in that religion. There are special archives and diaries/letters and documents that only the most high up in the church are allowed to view.

__________
In the last issue of the Messenger we reported that Mormon document dealer Mark Hofmann was not only a suspect in the October 15th Salt Lake City bombings case but that police were also investigating the possibility that Mr. Hofmann had been selling forged documents to the Mormon Church
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no60.htm

In the above situation they were paying very LARGE sums of money to hide 'faked' (but they didn't know at the time) documents that were about Smith and his predecessors that they did not want the public to know of.

____________
I don't think you are supposed to tell any of the inside secrets. Thats a big no no. For many years they honored the doctrines of blood atonement and the oath of vengeance and in some of the rituals promise the slitting of throats'ear to ear' and having your tongue ripped out.

I only researched all this kind of stuff when I was refused any help on researching my Fancher family background. Then I check out more on them and found a lot of information that could be considered occult.


occult ..... definition below.
Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.
Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.
Hidden from view; concealed.

[elemnopee]

21. That's Ironic

Considering the Mormon people were subject to immense persecution when the Church was founded.

[MuseRider]

32. This is true

but we have all seen what becomes of a persecuted people when they feel they have their own place to defend. The Meadow Massacre is a horrible story, I do not think that there is absolute proof but it certainly sounds as if they became the persecutors.

[BornUnderPunches]

38. MMM

If you're interested in the subject I suggest you read the works of Juanita Brooks and Will Bagley.

They've done some fantastic work on the MMM that has not been contested. Needless to say it doesn't cast the LDS leadership in a good light. It's an extremely touchy subject to this day. A subject the LDS leadership has never apologized for or even attempted to distance themselves from once it was revealed that church members were "dressed as savages" and coordinated the attacks.

[MuseRider]

42. I just heard

a report about it and I came away with the feeling that it was never "proved" but highly suspected. Has there been proof? I am not on one side or the other with this issue, it just seems that most of the potential witnesses were killed, the youngest who were saved were adopted out to Mormon families. I am wrong about this? If I had to say what I thought then I would fall on the side that it was the Mormons who did it, it was just too convenient and Brigham Young had been stirring up the populace for a while.

[juliagoolia]

49. I htink they did it, I think people go out of thier way to be fair to SLC

I read the testimony of the guy the executed and the brooks book, and several other accounts in the various books and on web sites. Plus the talk in the family (the really old folks) about the cousins that were murdered in Utah.

There were a lot of settlers that passed through but this contingent was very well supplied, with horses, livestock, money, food stocks etc. The Mormons were out in the wilderness.

Many settlers on the way to CA made it no problem. This rather wealthy one didn't. The rumors were stirred up about them saying they were some of the persecutors from IL where Smith was killed, only this group was from Arkansas.

My take on it>?? I think the Mormons did it, and they did it for the goods. I think they were mislead by leaders about why they were doing it though. I think the blood revenge had a lot to do with it.

[MuseRider]

50. I tend to agree.

As I said above, Brigham Young had been stirring up the populace for a while before this happened. I can't remember the whole story, I wish I could. I seem to remember that the story was not because of the goods, although that probably had a lot to actually do with it, but that they did think that some in the party were part of the Missouri contingent or perhaps from the group in Illinois. They certainly made good use of the tribes in the area, this was not the only time they used them for nefarious gains IIRC.

Were you ever able to find much about your family? Such a shame, you may have long lost cousins out there since the youngest were adopted out.

[juliagoolia]

58. Actually events like this make us all realize how luck we are to exist

The only reason my 3 greats grandfather didn't go with his cousins when they left Arkansas(they planned for a year) to CA and go with them is he had just gotten married, and got a new fangled land grant in TX and his wife had family that also got a grant so they stayed.
If they had not gotten the grant in the year during the planning none of us would be here.

[Zhade]

72. I first learned about The Mountain Meadows Massacre...

...in Jack London's The Star Rover. Fantastic book, IMHO.

[juliagoolia]

105. sounds like it must have been spot on from all I read.. wonder where

he got it all from?????

http://www.jacklondons.net/writings/StarRover/chapter13.html

[Protagoras]

11. There are many truths,

Some are uplifting and some are not...

(name that movie) :D

[Felix Mala]

12. They'll have to repaint all of their murals

showing the well-manicured "hand of God" turning over the golden plates to Smith as he stood in his orchard.

[Politicub]

13. I'm not keen on Mormom history

Do you know what happened to these golden plate? Surely someone wouldn't have lost them.

[MuseRider]

18. Off hand

I think I remember that they were given back to God but I can't be certain. I have just searched briefly through my Book of Mormon and this copy does not contain the Pearl of Great Price and I can't find the one that does contain that and I think that may be where that information is. Now I am curious, I will edit if I find it.

[Politicub]

19. Cool

I'm curious as well. I'll keep an eye out for the edits :)

[MuseRider]

25. I did find this.

"But by the wisdom of God, they(the plates) had remained safe in my hands, until I had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. When, according to arrangements, the messenger (Moroni? I don't know for sure) called for them, I delivered them up to him; and he has them in his charge until this day, being the second day of May, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-eight." This was found in the introduction to the Book Of Mormon the Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

The complete record is in the Pearl of Great Price and I still can't lay my hands on my copy. Did Moroni take them? (joking)

[sandnsea]

22. They were in the tabernacle, right??

That's what I had always thought, then a few years ago it came out that they weren't in the tabernacle after all. I had never heard they were given back to God, unless that's what they decided to say after they had to admit they weren't in the tabernacle. Or maybe it's something else I'm thinking about.

[MuseRider]

30. Hi, I posted above

what I was able to get from the Book of Mormon. Being a "not so good Mormon" means I have lots of half info in my head. Now being a Jack Mormon means I have learned nothing for a long time. There is something in the Salt Lake Temple I believe but I do not know what it is. Perhaps someone said they dug up the plates but it turned out to be fake. I really do not know and if I have time I will see what I can find. I am with you, I seem to recall someting about that but the Book of Mormon says the plates were taken back by the messenger.

[BornUnderPunches]

41. The plates and temple.

Smith stated the plates were returned to God. The temple is little more than a bastardized Masonic ceremony and busy work for members.

I should know. I've gone through it.

The only secret in the temple is the Holy of Holies. A small room where people recieve the second annointing. It's a title bestowed upon those that are in the good ol' boys club, or very well off. 99.99% of the membership isn't even aware of it.

The ceremony promises the recipient to be a God for eternity. Something the original endowment does not.

[MuseRider]

47. I realized

the folly of my ways before I got to the temple. I had my recommend and then quit. I had some major concerns about what was going on there and was able to find out enough to learn that what I had been told thus far was not what I was going to find there. I had to quit, I could not deal with it.

[Zhade]

75. I later learned that the Mormon church flew swastikas inside during WWII.

I believe it was not just in Germany either, IIRC.

[BornUnderPunches]

80. I'm only aware of..

...them posting swastikas in Germany. The church says it believes in being subject to ruling parties, but that has never stopped it from bending the rules before. More than likely they enjoyed giving their resources to the Nazi party (geneology that was used to weed out undesirables) in exchange for a state-approval and exclusion from persecution other faiths suffered.

FYI, the church did excommunicate at least one member for voicing his opinion of the Nazi party.

[MuseRider]

85. Is this true?

I did not know but was not a member long enough to be let in on all the details. Somehow this does surprise me, I remember them being very nice to my husband, a Jew, and telling me that the church thought very highly of Jews. Well, OK, it does not really surprise me. They really tell you little until you are in a position to be coerced. If you know more I would be interested.

[BornUnderPunches]

96. Yes. It's true.

The church didn't necessarily support ethnic cleansing etc. but it did enjoy the free ride it got from the Nazi party. It was held as an example of order, used as a genealogy resource (to weed out undesirables) and pretty much free from persecution since they toed the party line.

You wouldn't know the church was buddy-buddy with the Nazis by listening to today's leadership. They went as far as to lie.....multiple times....and attempt to erase proof of Hitler's posthumous baptism. They denied it several times until confronted with official paperwork that conflicted their revised paperwork.

I'll try to find pictures and post them later. They are readily available online.

[MuseRider]

98. Oh yes, I DO remember something

about this. The way it was presented to me of course was that they were considered OK because of the geneology work and it of course helped the Nazis unwittingly. So they did a posthumous baptism for Hitler. Damn, this stuff is difficult to learn about even though I really do not care anymore it is still pretty tough. I am now very glad for more than personal reasons that I am not any longer an active member.

[BikeWriter]

99. Adolf Hitler Converts to Mormonism

"Current IGI TM Addendum temple ordinance entries for Mr. Hiedler (Hitler) show that Hitler was "baptized" by Mormons on September 30, 1993, and "endowed" on April 27, 1994, in the Jordan River Temple, Utah. This record was in the IGI TM Addendum at the time of Ashton's denial on September 8. I obtained a copy of this particular record for Hitler from the LDS Family Search Center in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building in downtown Salt Lake City on July 13, 1998, less than two months before Ashton stated that no such IGI record existed for Hitler."

http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm

[Zhade]

110. I think I got the info here...

www.exmormon.org

[daleo]

52. I have read that you get your own planet to run

Only males though. I don't know if this is actual doctrine though.

[BornUnderPunches]

54. Males become Kings (Gods)....

...women become their priestesses / Queens.

[MuseRider]

60. The most important

word is the word *their*. It really chafed me and made me glad I did not stay in the church or was married to one of the members.

[JNelson6563]

33. The angel Moroni

agent for the big guy. ;-)

[mitchum]

14. Years ago Fawn Brodie was excommunicated because...

of her biography of conman Joseph Smith. For decades, Mormons have been stealing the book from libraries in an attempt to prevent others from reading it.

[BornUnderPunches]

53. About Brody's work.

The kicker of it all is that she set out to write a biography of Joseph Smith. She had the church leader's blessing to do so, and they even gave her full run of the church archives.

Everything in her book is straight from the LDS archives. The church doesn't have the balls to dispute the facts in the book so they assassinate her character.

Her book is hardly malicious. It is very matter of fact, which is what she set out to do. I understand that she never stopped believing after she wrote the book. That's some amazing compartmentalization at work.

The very same could be said for Palmer. He's still a believer. His book is sold in church outlet stores. Stores....run by the church....

They will not dispute the book. They will smear his character.

[NNguyenMD]

109. Just wondering...whats Falwell's or Pat Robertson's stance on the Mormons?

Surely they would be against Mormonism just like they are against other deemed "Christian Cults".

Or maybe that tidbit fact that Mormon's vote near 100% republican is enough to turn a blind eye?

[Must_B_Free]

111. I think that as con men

they realize and respect that they are spreading the same butter...

[Journeyman]

15. Anyone else see the "Southpark" episode on Mormonism?. . .

dum dum dum dum dumdumdum

[LibertyLover]

16. Mormons

Back when I was in college (in the Dark Ages, i.e. 1974), I was at the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago doing a BA in Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture. One of my professors in Egyptian literature came into class laughing one day. Seems he had been contacted by the Mormon church and asked to authenticate a document they had, which according to them would "prove" that the Book of Mormon, or at least one portion of it, was true.

The "document" they had actually was Egyptian, circa 22nd dynasty, and he told them that. The problem was that it was a section from one of the books of the dead, The Book of Coming Forth By Day. It showed the god Osiris as a mummy recumbent on his funeral bier. Directly above Him was a square hole where something had obviously been cut out. And of course there was hieratic script. The Mormons also asked him to translate the writing and to speculate on what had been cut out based on it. It was, Dr. Baer said, very easy. The writing was a prayer that the deceased be reborn in the Duat (afterlife)as Osiris had been and the cut out section would have been a picture of Isis, His wife, in the form of a bird, hovering over His erect phallus so that She could conceive Their son, Horus. The portion that had been cut out probably had been removed during the Victorian period. My prof said that the Mormons were disappointed that their document had not panned out. He later found out that they were saying that they had had the document authenticated by a famous Egyptologist - just neglecting to mention what that authentication actually consisted of.

[Maddy McCall]

24. Isis was sister and wife to Osiris.

Damn. Those Egyptians are sounding more Morman all the time. :-)

[Must_B_Free]

104. Egyptian Connection from Joseph Smith

Smith started the roots of the con years earlier than the "gold plates"...

The first attempt involved some mummies and scrolls he purchased in the 1830s. He claimed to have translated the scrolls (pre rosetta stone) and this was the original stab at creating the "religion".

Years later he rehashed this with the Angel of God and "gold plates" story.

[NNguyenMD]

20. Read John Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" about Mormonism

its origins and the presence of Fundamental Mormonism in the American West. Its an incredible great read, and a great investigative book on Mormons.

[MuseRider]

26. I read that

in October while on vacation. It is a very good read and really confused me. Why are the fundies going after gays and not these people? Really amazing. I knew they were out there but not in these numbers.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

48. Some are

Though not specifically Mormon fundies, but Mormons in general: I was taught in a fundie baptist church that Mormons were a cult (as were JWs and Roman Catholics).

[MuseRider]

51. I had a

Jehovahs Witness woman come to my home one day and I told her I was Mormon. She looked at my head, she was looking for.........HORNS! She told me that she had been told that we trimmed them off and then she left very quickly. I did not think she was serious until I had an aquaintence tell me that they were told that. Surely not every group is crazy like that, it must have just been their group, right? :scared:

[American Tragedy]

56. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

That has got to be one of the funniest door-to-door proselytizing story I've ever heard. Where the hell do these people come from?

[Zhade]

77. It's really funny that fundamentalist Christians call Mormonism a cult.

Considering the whole "Rapture" post-millennial dispensationalist meme is cultish and from roughly the same historical era!

[BikeWriter]

79. Agreed!

:-)

[xpunkisneatx]

100. Wait...

You were taught Roman Catholics were a cult? wow. I never knew RC's were considered a cult. I was raised RC, but I haven't stepped foot in church (for mass anyways...christinings don't count, right? lol) since my confirmation. Although...i guess it is kinda cultish...the pope being the leader, all the rituals, the damn sitting and standing in church...I just never thought of it that way.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

116. I think the issue was

That RCs worshipped Mary and saints, all of whom were not God, as well as the use of "idols" such as icons and statues. Oh, and they also were heretics because of the addition of the Apocrypha to the bible.

[daleo]

31. Yes, a very interesting book

And not altogether unsympathetic, although the Mormon church probably wouldn't agree.

[Ilsa]

44. I heard his interview about this book on Fresh Air. Great story. n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

66. I have not read Krakauer's book, but I know about it and as I live

in Arizona, this is a "neighborhood" issue.

A friend who visited from New York over the week-end was working last week with a film crew doing a documentary on some of the most egregious abuse of the FLDS (Fundamentalist. . . Latter Day Saints) community in Colorado City, AZ, and Hildale, UT.

Bigotry and prejudice are one thing, but despising a group of extremely wealthy men who sexually prey on young women and girls in the name of religion is something else. And there is mounting evidence that many in the traditional LDS machinery routinely turn a blind eye to at best, and actively collude with at worst, the FLDS violence and abuse. That goes for the government in Utah as well as that in Arizona.

Warren Jeffs, leader of the FLDS group, is now believed to be building a huge compound for his followers in Texas. Speculation is that no one will bother him there, where the memory of Waco is still fresh.


IMHO, an individual has a right to his or her personal faith, but that individual does not have any right whatsoever to use that faith to intentionally and maliciously harm another individual.

[democracyindanger]

102. Jeffs is well-covered in the book

Krakauer did a good job trying to paint a complete picture of Mormon Fundamentalists.

[Mend]

23. Speaking of Mormons

Does anyone know where they stand on evolution vs. creationism?

[BornUnderPunches]

76. Evolution.

The church hasn't taken a firm stance on evolution or creationism. Regardless of what past church leaders have said (they have fallen on both sides of the fence), the current leadership stands for nothing. They have no stance on evolution, creationism, etc. The only thing they seem to have a stance on is homosexuality.

[KamaAina]

29. Whew! For a second there I thought the book was "The Satanic Verses"

The American Taliban strikes again. :grr:

[PROGRESSIVE1]

37. You don't question the "Morman Mafia". They can make the real....

mafia look like saints.

[0007]

40. Get the whole bottle of wax from the 'Constitution of Nevada'

[VegasWolf]

55. Who cares about Mormon excommunication, just join the snake kissers. n/t

[Voltaire99]

63. LOL!

Nice one--funniest post of the day.

[Voltaire99]

64. "Disfellowshipped": this is like being told by the Tupperware CEO...

...that you can still hawk the full line. You just don't have burping privileges.

[Zhade]

78. No -- THIS is the funniest post of the day!!!

"Burping privileges" - genius!

[BikeWriter]

65. Ask a staunch Mormon about the Mountain Meadows Massacre sometime...

or read this...

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows3.htm#THE%20MASSACRE.

[Must_B_Free]

108. Is that when they shot women and children in the face?

and denied this until the mass graves were found and revealed the truth?

[BikeWriter]

115. Yes, they tried to blame it on the indians...

...but for one thing most of the victims were shot in the head from close up execution style.

[Zhade]

68. I'm ex-Mormon, and the guy's right, the cult's origins WERE altered.

Repeatedly. The whole thing is a crock.

I know a lot of DUers don't care for South Park, but the episode about Joseph Smith nailed Mormonism perfectly - and it's HILARIOUS!

[BikeWriter]

74. Thanks for being realistic about it.

:-)

[BornUnderPunches]

81. Exactly.

There were a few small errors (the assumption Lucy was as involved as they portrayed her as), but other than that they hit it out of the park.

They even got the members' habit of turning to pissant diversions when confronted with the lies down pat.

[lies and propaganda]

82. It would be laughable....

...if they werent so damned scary.

Im in Az, and we just put up cute little buildings for the brainwashed little girls of Colorado City to voluntarily go to. Too afraid of another Waco to want to stop fourteen year old girl from being screwed by their uncles.

Hundreds of year of this is just great for the gene pool.

[MuseRider]

87. I have seen

the direct results of that gene pool. Scary and very, very sad.

[VegasWolf]

86. Mormons have too much work to do outlawing gay unions around

the country to be distracted by a book.

[Erika]

101. A Few Facts on Mormonism

Brigham Young was a mason and many masonic rites have been incorporated into the church.

Mormon men have the right to call their wife (in past times, wives) up to heaven. If the man doesn't want to, the wife does not enter Heaven.

The Mormon president received a vision stating that blacks could now be more than lay members of the church. It was at the same time the church was being looked into for the possible repeal of their tax-exempt status because of discrimination.

Mormons do believe that can become the God of their own planet. Check out the "GodMakers".

Mormons vote almost 100% Republican.

[Must_B_Free]

107. Mormons baptize dead bodies

they got in trouble recent for purchasing records that they were using to posthumously baptize dead souls into their church.

[barbaraann]

113. Skeptic's Annotated Book of Mormon

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.html

Amazing. Just amazing.