ACLU, church-state group plan lawsuit over 'intelligent design' mandate

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-22/1102958645295950.xml&storylist=penn

The state American Civil Liberties Union plans to file a federal lawsuit Tuesday against a school district that is requiring students to learn about alternatives to the theory of evolution.

The ACLU said its lawsuit will be the first in the nation to challenge whether public schools should teach "intelligent design," which holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by some higher power.

The Dover Area School District was believed to be the first in the nation to mandate intelligent design when it voted 6-3 in favor of including the concept in the science curriculum on Oct. 18.

The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State have scheduled a Tuesday afternoon news conference to discuss the lawsuit, which will be filed in U.S. District Court in Harrisburg, ACLU spokesman Paul Silva said Monday.

[AllegroRondo]

1. Facts belong in a science class

leave "intelligent design" for Philosphy class

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Or sunday school.

[daleo]

15. It is a worthwhile issue in a philosophy class

There are a lot of interesting issues that the idea brings up, not the least of which is how best to understand probability arguments. But these don't seem to me to be empirical in nature. For example, debates about the anthropic principle idea involve the constants of nature, which are empirical, but the empirical values and determination of these constants is a separate issue from the anthropic principle debates.

[Bill McBlueState]

3. intelligent design

Here's what I have to wonder: What does it even mean to teach "intelligent design" in a science class? So the teacher would have to make some kind of disclaimer: "Some people think their god created the universe."

But once that happens, then what? What does an exam question on intelligent design look like? What kind of homework problems are assigned? What sorts of in-class activities can you do?

If it were a real scientific idea, it would fit well into existing curricula. But instead, it only serves to undermine the legitimate ideas the teacher presents about evolution, while providing no new educational content of its own.

I've never heard anyone talk about the practical implications of teaching "intelligent design." But then, since it's nothing more than a distracting wedge issue, I wouldn't expect better.

[LibertyorDeath]

4. 'intelligent design' will be left on the trash heap of History

Where it belongs.

This is not flame bait for magical thinkers

It's my opinion.

[karlrschneider]

19. Anything who had "designed" humans would get an F in engineering.

Our skeletons and musculature is far from optimal for upright walking, and the esophagus sharing a tunnel with breathing...and also the common reproductive/elimination passages are idiotic. All of 'our' senses are inferior in nearly every way to the "lower" animals. Compare our sight to that of the eagle or hawk, our strength to an elephant (or even a horse), our hearing to a dog, our sense of smell to a bumblebee and so forth. In every case, we are outclassed by orders of magnitude to the other creatures. Our newborns have almost no chance of survival without constant attention and support...unlike those of nearly every other species. In the spirit of the season, BAH HUMBUG.

edit: typo

[George_S]

23. Maybe they will compromise to a...

... not so intelligent design.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. It is a good thing we have the ACLU

and it is one I contrubute to consistently.

It is obvious to me, that the "intelligent design" people are certain that the "intelligent designer" is the Christian god.

Heavens! Suppose the "intelligent designer was an alien, or the god of the Muslims, or a turtle, or a frog, or a Greek god.

No, "intelligent design" philosophy/theology is inteneded to place the western Christian god in that position as the "intellgent designer". It would be blasphemy for a Christian to think otherwise.

[Zhade]

6. Good. Stop trying to ignore science and reality, guys.

You want to teach "ID", or whatever, that's cool - IN YOUR HOME OR CHURCH.

When my tax dollars are involved, you do not push religion IN ANY FORM.

[Anakin Skywalker]

7. Intelligent Design = My iMac Computer.

Take that, Micro$uck-worshipping @$$hole Freepers!

[DBoon]

11. Steve Jobs is God!

or at least He thinks so.

[Anakin Skywalker]

12. Now now

I am not one of those Mac fanatics who think that everything Apple or Jobs does is right.

[DBoon]

14. So having a Macintosh in a public school

does not violate church/state separation, by introducing a "religion" into a government body?

http://lowendmac.com/things/010212.html

[hinachan]

25. OK, as long as we're contriuting Mac links to this thread....

http://www.starpoint.net/~schaef/mac_suck.htm

(Here's someone who works with Macs at his job)
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/9263/myviews.html

http://jsmagic.com/spam/

Y'know, maybe Mac use is a religion...b/c once the kids are forced to use these damn things in schools, they have to pray someone will teach them how to use a PC, which the vast majority of offices actually have. :(

[hinachan]

24. Microsoft donates mostly to Dems

If we're going to "Buy Blue", then you'd better ditch your Crapple, because Crapple's CEO has a total monopoly (i.e., you can't buy aftermarket parts for your Crapintosh), whereas you can buy parts from any number of manufacturers for a PC.

Microsoft, IBM, and Hewlett-Packard are all "blue" companies, if you check your boycott/procott sites. I'm proud to say that I've got a HP scanner and printer, an IBM PC (the real thing, not a clone!), an IBM typewriter I bought in 1985 (that still works like a champ!). I wish Microsoft's software was less buggy, but I'd still take Windows over Crapintosh any day of the week. At least you can get parts and software for a Windows-based PC without having to cash in a gold brick to afford it!

[DBoon]

27. Yes, I've heard Bill Gates is on this level a pretty cool guy

Obviously a ruthless competitor, but someone who treats his personal peers well and for a high-tech multi-billionare has pretty reasonable politics.

I mean look at Larry Ellison for example....

[athenap]

8. Boy I hope the teachers get subversive over this...

...and start teaching the more interesting of the creation myths in world religions. Especially the Ancient Egyptian one of how Atum masturbated the universe into existence...how's that for Intelligent Design...predating Kinsey by five thousand years or so.

[tsuki]

22. Down here, they are the biggest proponents for ID. That is why so

many progressives home school, and we have the one of the largest home schooling groups for a county our size.

Because we have dual enrollment, most home schoolers graduate w/ an AA paid for by the Refundie School Board.

[IHeart1993]

9. This is great for the United States

If this hadn't been done, the USA would fall even more behind in science. Then the same people who insisted on ID would cry because their kids couldn't compete with the rest of the world.

[Union Thug]

13. I think you're on to something here...

Let's see just how stupid, naive and bewildered we can keep the people of this country by forcing a presto chango, ya got yerself a universe theory in the science classroom.

Teach children that there's pie in the sky when you die and they are much less likely to fight the sons of bitches that control this country, pay them shit wages, strip them of medical and dental care.

It's all in the cards....

[heidler1]

16. I hired a house painter once who thought that the complexity of the

human eye proved that there had to be a creator. I told him that the evolution of the human eye was not a problem for me, but why there was anything including a God or an eye was very hard to explain to my satisfaction. It seems to me that there would be a void or even less then a void, but perhaps I'm missing something.

I also believe that having a God do it makes the whole thing less likely because this God had to come from somewhere so it just compicates the situation. When I brought this up to my Mother at about age ten she said, "God has always been." but I couldn't swallow that either. If there is truth in her view, which I doubt, why did he cause me to think in a way that would damn me to hell?

[VegasWolf]

17. I ran into a taxi driver who thought that the complexity of city streets

proved that there had to be a god.

[karlrschneider]

20. That's the premise of a fundy asshole Michael Behe in his book,1

Darwin's Black Box. It's from way back...here's one starting point:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html

[heidler1]

21. I never thought that my view was original, but growing up in a small town

I can assure that very few that would think the way I did/do ever told anybody about their thoughts on this subject. I'd guess that a great number of people have been there and done that.

[creeksneakers2]

10. Dover is just a small town

The school board is going to bankrupt them with this scheme.

[bobbieinok]

18. from my post in the religion non-political forum

Anthony Flew's story of the 'invisible gardener'...often discussed in
religion-atheism debates

http://freethink.thedashcat.net/freethink03.htm

....

Antony Flew, too, makes a valid point: that an indescribable being is meaningless. Consider Flew's parable of an invisible gardener:



Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds … But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Skeptic despairs. "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"9

more....

was reminded of this when saw LBN article about Flew

I think Flew developed this story as a means to illustrate the problem: what does it take to negate the existence of God? I believe this is part of an on-going philosophical debate that relies on the ability to negate a statement as a means of affirming the validity of the statement. (I don't think this is an accurate summary of the dabate, but the debate has puzzled me for a long time.)

[raising2moredems]

26. I swear it is all a part of the plan...

once the Supreme Court said schools could not be segregated. So we'll just work to destroy public schools - buildings decay, choke off funding, and try to stack the school boards with activists (and hey, the definition of an activist is any one you with whom you don't agree, new English doncha know?). So you promote breeding and get plenty of cheap, legal slave labor. I had a teacher (and most teachers attended the church I USED to attend, that is until the new minister came. The divorced one remarried to a woman slightly older than his early-twenty something son) who paralled evolution to genesis. Bet they'd hang him for that, the "hypochristians" that is, not the school board.

[genieroze]

28. I don't have a problem with it being taught as a possible theory.

Theory meaning just that, a theory. Just as long as they teach scientific fact FIRST. Theories are good, it gets people to think out of the ordinary and into possibilities. Many scientists hold on to the possibility of intelligent design. Just like some scientists believe in the Big Bang Theory. Just as long as it's put forth as a possibility to be proved or disproved at a later date. Flame Away, but I'm not trying to start a flame war.