Politician Who Won't Say Pledge Of Allegiance May Be Recalled

[rainbow4321]

http://www.local6.com/news/3999438/detail.html


DENVER -- A recall election is now set for an Estes Park, Colo., trustee who refuses to stand up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance during the Town Board meetings.
"
I have not been standing for the Pledge of Allegiance due to a conflict I have with the wording of the pledge, specifically the words 'under God,'" Councilman David Habecker said.

Habecker said it's a violation of church and state to include the words in the pledge and for that reason, he won't stand.

The board began reciting the pledge before meetings earlier this year at the suggestion of Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark. She suggested it as a way to show respect for the country during wartime.

[Chandler Stork]

1. There's a better way.

Say it, but just remain silent during the "under God" part. That's what I've been doing for about 20 years now.

[MercutioATC]

4. I just say "under Zeus" or "under Ra" or whatever pops into my mind...

I DO get some stares, occasionally.

[Dangerously Amused]

29. One nation, underdogs,...

Posted by MercutioATC

"I just say "under Zeus" or "under Ra" or whatever pops into my mind..."

Hey, I do that too! Man, how cool are you, cuz I thought I was the only one! Sometimes I'll add a nonsense word, like "under potatoes," and sometimes I'll even add "under Satan" just to spice things up. The hardest part is saying it with a straight face and pretending not to notice the people who stare.

[MercutioATC]

31. I'm not confrontational by nature, but I love the reactions.

If they look at me, I turn to them with a "What?" look...this works best when you say something like "under Bob".

I think the correct term for it is "immature", but yes, I prefer to think we're cool.

:hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. Unfortunately,

Good ole Bob has been having a couple of setbacks lately.

Praise Bob.

[Cooley Hurd]

50. That's what I said in school as a child...

...not to be progressive or politically correct, I just liked the cartoon "Underdog." I think I said it that way throughout elementary school...

[dhinojosa]

40. I just don't say "under god" and finish early....

then I look at everyone as if they did it all wrong.

[arikara]

61. You all are so funny!

but don't forget to give the Goddess her due, people.

Kali, Diana, Spider Woman, Amaterasu Omikami, Kwan Yin, Changing Woman, Isis, Lillith...

[0007]

63. I use Shiva, the most powerful God of all!

[PassingFair]

6. Burn Him!

[BattyDem]

10. Yeah right ...

Congressman Jim McDermott did that last spring and the Repugs crucified him for it! Spineless Nancy Pelosi wouldn't support him and he was forced to apologize. Of course, no Dem bothered to point out the the Repugs kept saying all along, "If people are uncomfortable with the words, 'Under God', they don't have to say them." :eyes: It makes you wonder how average citizens, especially kids, could possibly omit "Under God" without being harrassed.

http://www.progressive.org/mcwatch04/mc050104.html

[Chandler Stork]

16. I was unaware of that.

I wonder how I missed it, actually - Church/State issues are big with me. Thanks for the link.

[BattyDem]

18. I'm not surprised that you missed it ...

The media was probably covering some celebrity trial that day. They can't be expected to report on everything. :eyes:

[arwalden]

15. Or... just speak OVER the "under god" part by saying "indivisible"

then remain silent while everyone else catches up.

Or say "indivisible, indivisible" ....

[Soth]

46. Just "Huzzah!" really loudly.

Makes it very interesting. "One nation, HUZZAH!!!!, indivisible..."

[devinsgram]

52. Thats exactly what I do now.

You can say the pledge, but eliminate that.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

2. Umm have these people heard of the

F*CKING First Amendment?! :eyes:

[BOHICA06]

11. This is the essence of the 1st Amendment

But some other council members and residents are upset about his actions and have enough signatures to hold a recall election. That recall election will occur Tuesday, Feb. 15.

Action is being taken by the citizenry against a government official, not the government taking action against a citizen. The government is not doing anything to prevent his free expression.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

20. Sorry - didn't catch that part...

Oops.

All I know is in my great little liberal town - I got suspended f/high school ten years ago (my senior yr) for refusing to say it.

I just don't get it. Why do people have to do something they don't want to. I would think that his right is protected under the first amendment - even against other citizens.

If the neo-nazis can set up camp in town, and have it protected by the bill of rights, why can't one person's refusal to say the pledge be protected? (f/other citizens?)

[BOHICA06]

22. Well, his right is protected ...

it just that there is a group of folks that don't want to pay him with their taxes while he is exerting his principal.

Now do you even wonder why the writers of the Constitution put in the Electoral College .... they feared democracy because it can get silly (in the best case) and oppressive.

[Cobalt Violet]

3. I hope he sticks to his principles.

And the christian keep whining about how persecuted they are. :shrug:

[GainesT1958]

5. Actually, it wasn't "One nation, under God..."...

Until Ike had the words "Under God" added in the early 50s, to combat "Godless Communism"--and to kiss up to Congressional demagogues like Joe McCarthy.

Does that mean his desire to recite the Pledge as it was before, um, 1953, is somehow "Un-American"?

Sounds to me like a lot of Adolph Coors' buddies live around the foot of Rocky Mountain National Park!x(

B-)

[BattyDem]

12. How DARE you want to recite the Pledge as written?!

B-)

[Chipper Chat]

7. The last line if the Pledge ...

"with liberty and justice for ALL" is hard to swallow for the disenfranchised (gays, the poor, Indians, American muslims, and now those who voted for Kerry!) I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of the country refused to say the pledge. Let's see - how much free jail space is there? How full are the court dockets?

[rainbow4321]

17. Seeing as how we'd all be found guilty in a nanosecond

by shrub appointed judges, they could probably go thru all 60,000 DUers by the judges' lunchtime....then the shrub supporting media could report using their new favorite word of the month with glee---"dissidents"...all given life without parole...

[gaia_gardener]

21. My 5yo learned it last year in preschool

we had a long talk on the way home and I told him that I thought it was inappropriate for a 5yo to take a pledge of that sort and then discussed the fact that I don't feel comfortable saying it because I don't believe our country truly aims for "liberty and justice for all" at this point.

Mr Gardener didn't like it and told me that was too much to tell a 5yo. I didn't care.

We also discussed that a lot of people are uncomfortable taking the pledge because they feel that it is putting the country before God. And that there are people that are uncomfortable because it says "Under God" and they don't believe in God (which floored him more than anything else I said).

[Chipper Chat]

25. I suggest that Barney Frank introduce a bill that amends

the Pledge to read:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the divided states of America. And to the Republicans for which it stands - one nation, under many gods, with liberty and justice for all heterosexuals."

[SemperEadem]

27. one nation, under Mammon

that's the name of the god they serve

[arikara]

62. LOL... but more like

one empire under mammon

[SemperEadem]

67. there ya go!

[SemperEadem]

28. Mr. Gardener was out of line

Just because he's a teacher doesn't mean he's qualified to tell a child's parent what they can and can't tell their child.

[SKKY]

8. America is headed in a direction that disturbs me...

...History is sometimes dirty people. Sometimes it offends, and sometimes if hurts. Things like this, and things like the Rebel flag issue in Mississippi amount to nothing more than an attempt to cleanse it and make it what we would have wanted it to be. I think I'm moving to the moon.

[hyphenate]

48. Canada is a lot closer

and they would actually like to have us!

[KingChicken]

9. I agree with councilman, however I'm willing to tollerate

I can stand for the usage of the general "god" word in public and whatnot, however it's when I see the ten commandments show up in the courtroom, then I get pissed.

Why must one pledge their allegiance to any country? It's such a cult thing...

[Maat]

14. Everyone is making good points.

I just hope the man sticks by his principles.

And anybody who would recall an official because he declines to say 'under God' is an idiot!

[0007]

65. Did you happen to see how the voting is going on this issue?

[Floogeldy]

13. You'd think the freakazoid christians would have a problem . . .

. . . with pledging allegiance to something other than their god.

[WoodrowFan]

45. ritual IS their God

They've long since lost sight of God in favor of worshiping ritual and symbols, like the Bible itself, or big stone 10 Commandments, etc.

[noamnety]

19. The online poll is being freeped

go give it a hand, please.

[RevCheesehead]

23. I refuse to say the pledge, but for different reasons.

As a Christian, I believe that my highest allegiance is to God, not to a "flag" or "the Republic, for which it stands". My identity is found first and foremost in the fact that I am a baptized child of God, and part of the created order of the world.

When my nation makes decisions or takes action which I do not support, I CANNOT pledge my allegiance. I NEVER supported the war in Iraq. I oppose "no child left behind." I oppose policies that oppress the poor, the elderly, and those who have little power or voice. I oppose tax cuts for the wealthy while millions are unemployed or under-employed. I abhor "pre-emptive strikes", and I oppose the death penalty in ALL circumstances.

How can I pledge my loyalty to a nation under its current administration?

And for the Christian, I would ask, "What Would Jesus Do?"

[Chipper Chat]

35. Jesus would say:

"one nation - under Dad"

[RevCheesehead]

36. LOL! But make it "One World, under Dad."

[Just Me]

66. Hey,..."Mom" is important, too!!!

Without "Mom",...Jesus may not have been?

How come God didn't just zap Jesus down here?

I'll tell you why,..."Moms" matter, too!!!! :bounce:

[Chipper Chat]

74. Joke told by Chris Matthews last week:

Joseph walked into the inn and asked for a room. Innkeeper said "sold out". Joe said "but my wife is pregnant." Innkeeper said "that's not my fault." Joseph replied "not mine either!"

[gil ace]

53. Great point

I applaud you.

[k8conant]

24. Just say "I don't pledge allegiance to the flag....."

I just stand and say nothing myself. I don't owe allegiance to a flag. I don't disrepect it either. I do support the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

[NVMojo]

26. well ....hummm, we have troops dying daily over in Iraq and this

is a real issue in America at this point? I guess if you are trying to build the Fourth Reich, it is...

[Solly Mack]

30. I'd scream if it would do any good.

I'm about to the point I don't give a damn about anyone's religion anymore.

I really don't want to be that way. I'm fighting it, but everyday there's a new outrage. Everyday my anger grows.

[genieroze]

32. Good for him!

:toast: Those townspeople will regret it when they are forced with a gun to their head to say the pledge. ARE PEOPLE MENTAL ANYMORE?!!!!!

[bhikkhu]

33. In high school I wouldn't stand for the pledge...

I don't recall being particularly aware of the "under god" controversy at the time, but the flag, any flag, is by origin a battle standard. Being anti war in principle, pledging allegiance to the last symbol too many people have seen just before getting a bullet in the head was not an option.

Carl Sagan wondered why we don't pledge allegiance to the constitution...perhaps we might have a different sort of country then.

[drhilarius]

34. This can't be true, I don't believe it...

only christians are persecuted in this country! <sarcasm off>

[aikido15]

38. According to them...

we are burning them at the stake.:eyes:

[Dr Fate]

37. I just dont say that part.

The old "Choose yer battles" routine I 'spose.

[Swamp Rat]

39. "ONE NAYSHUN UNDER BUSCH!"

"GET IT WRITE YU TRAYTUR LIBRULS!" (sic) :D

[Dem2theMax]

41. Oh to have the money to put that pic up on a HUGE billboard.

Actually, oh to have the money to put it on thousands of HUGE billboards. Not that I could find a company that would do it.
But the thought is nice. :)

[Swamp Rat]

42. I'd like to see these on billboards in the South.

[Dem2theMax]

54. Swamp Rat, I swear, if I ever fall into a pile of money,

I'll make that dream come true. For both of us! :)

[DeepGreen]

43. Does anyone know if the Estes Park Town Board or local gov

has an e-mail address? I would like to send a note of support
for David Habecker.

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. Ask and you shall recieve...

http://www.estesnet.com/TownClerk/MayorTrustees/default.htm

[DeepGreen]

76. Thanks !!

:)

[jbnow]

44. What if one was a Jehovah witness?

They don't say the pledge. To recall him is a most blatant violation! How bold of him to be so honest.

I have no problem with the God part myself, but since childhood when we had to say it at the start of class i would say "I DON'T pledge allegiance..."

I never understood, nor could anyone explain to me, why we would pledge...allegiance...to a piece of cloth. I probably took things to seriously but I remember asking...does it mean supporting the country even if I think it is really wrong? Why would we promise that? No one really tried to answer. But they wouldn't let me not say it, so I added the "don't" in.

And I have never found the answer. I take my pledges seriously.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. Jehovah's Witnesses don't participate in politics, don't vote,

don't run for public office. But Witness children are exempt from saying the pledge in school.

[arwalden]

51. Pledge Allegiance To The Nation... Not A Piece Of Cloth... Like This:

I pledge allegiance to the United States Of America.
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
In Christ's name we pray. Amen.



Bwah-ha-ha-ha... okay, you can leave off the last line.

[jbnow]

55. But what does that even mean?

Pledging allegiance...is promising loyalty. You are right, they surely mean the country and not the flag (though it SAYS to the flag)

But what does it mean to pledge loyalty to the country? Really. Right now, and in the past,a lot is being done very wrong in the name of our country. I don't support so much of it...

The policies of an administration is not our country, but what is? I have no idea what the pledge is a pledge to.

I DO pledge allegiance to liberty and justice, but if you ponder that, who determines what iut means? Much done in the name of justice is unjust.

And for an indivisible nation...have we been as divided in the last 150 years? (Maybe) I have never been as baffled by the "other side" as I am now.

But I like Christ, good energy, we could use it (having nothing to do with religion). Just too bad bush's "Christian" style is like Jesus in reverse. Jesus, in myth or reality, cared for things bush abuses...the poor, the ill, the elderly, the children and all the folks whose programs are being cut or distorted. Jesus never said a thing about gays and said a lot about not judging and loving.

In fact the only ones jesus spoke poorly of were the pharisees because they took advantage of the needy, were hypocrites who proclaimed their righteous on the while inside they were full of greed and wickedness and ...well everything we are seeing mow. And he was quite impolite, calling these rich leaders "generation of vipers" and "sons of Satan."
If Jesus was real and here, I think we would like him a lot.

But I don't think it would take long for our "Christian" leader to crucify him again.

[arwalden]

57. You Have A Lot On Your Plate, Don't You...

... that's more than I have time or inclination to worry about. But I wish you much luck your quest to decipher all those riddles. :eyes:

[Just Me]

69. Yes,...it is terribly confusing and conflicting times,...created by,...

,...terribly power-consumed "leaders". These "leaders" are intentionally wreaking psychic havoc on us.

You are spot on about Jesus. These vipers are NOT into the vision of Jesus,...to the contrary,...they twist that vision into a rationalization of their self-centered conviction.

If Jesus were here,...I'd like him a lot, too.

[BiggJawn]

49. Habecker should read them (the Board) a chapter from "Catch-22"...

The one about the Great Loyalty Pledge, where the men had to sign loyalty oaths to get served a meal, or recite the Pledge to get the salt passed to them...

"Gimme Eat."

Maybe their next move could be to chant "Four legs GOOD, Two legs BA-A-A-A-A-A-A-D!" before each meeting to show their fealty to the Sun Chimp.

[msmcghee]

56. In the past I have inserted loudly "no" between "under" and "God" . .

. . but what this guy did is even more honorable because it invites the scorn of others. My way - it hits them before they have a chance to know it's coming - and then it's too late.

Surreptitiously not saying "under God" is a cop out - as is standing and just mouthing the words.

If we believe in freedom of conscience and speech and freedom "from" religion - then as a matter of honesty we should object in a way that allows others to know what we are doing before we do it as this guy did.

That takes guts.

[derby378]

58. DU the poll...

We're getting trampled. Vote!!

[elemnopee]

59. I hate the pledge

I always felt like a facist doing it in high school, I had no idea students have a right not to do the pledge.

[malachi]

64. Fuck the pledge of allegiance. It's nothing more than state

sponsored mind control. No different than the nazis, commies or fascists pledging allegiance to their state. It makes me uncomfortable, always has, to see the sheep pledge. It should be abolished

[oneighty]

60. Eight years active duty in the regular Navy

and never once was I called upon to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Never once.

Also I was never required to attend church except in boot camp when many hundreds of us assembled in a huge building and listened to sermons.

The Hymn "For those in peril on the sea." was touching however.

180-degrees off course. Hee hee hee

180

[Tansy_Gold]

68. I expect Estes Park will begin expelling all non-Christians

before the end of the year. A limited number of Jews needed for essential services -- lawyers, doctors, etc. -- may be permitted to stay, provided they live in approved areas, do not socialize with Christians, and wear black armbands with yellow Stars of David embroidered on them. These Jews will not be permitted to own their own businesses but will work for Christians who will oversee all aspects of the Jews' business to make sure it conforms with accepted Christian doctrine.

Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Pagans, and other non-Christians who wish to convert via public baptism may do so after paying substantial fines, but secret reversion to their unapproved faiths may result in the death penalty.

[Blue Gardener]

70. Kick!

The poll really needs help!

[superconnected]

71. Maybe my vison of what America is supposed to stand for is off

I tend to think since it's America he shouldn't be punished if he chooses to not say anything. It should not be forced on him.

Forcing it on him strikes me as anti-civil rights, anti-freedom.

[Tansy_Gold]

72. The "new" vision of America as a Christian Nation

requires that he say the Pledge of Allegiance as directed.

You see, some of us are content to not say the Pledge or just leave out the "under God" part. And some of us are content with nativity scenes in front of the courthouse, so long as the funds to put up the scene are private funds. And some of us are content with the Ten Commandments inside the courthouse because it really doesn't do any harm and most people believe in the Ten Commandments anyway, even if they don't know that five of the ten relate strictly to the practice of monotheistic religion rather than "laws" as we know them.

And some of us are content with Christian public prayers before city council meetings because it's not really that offensive and we can just tune it out. And we don't mind the Christmas decorations put up by the public works department because after all it's just to boost the merchants' holy-day sales and bring in more sales tax revenue that benefits us all.

And some of us don't mind the Christmas carols in the school pageant because everyone really likes the Christmas season with all its presents and celebrations and getting a little drunk at the office Christmas party. We don't mind that a few kids have different beliefs which they can practice at home; it won't hurt them to participate in our beliefs, though it would irreparably harm our children to be exposed to those barbaric heathenish rites.

We don't mind that the schools ignore science and teach only Creationism because nobody really uses evolution in their daily life and it's just a theory -- even if we don't understand what "theory" means in a scientific context. We just know that God created the Whole Fucking World in six days and nothing ever changes from that, except the viruses and bacteria that somehow become resistant to all the wonder chemicals we keep devising to get rid of the pesky little spawns of hell, some of which are all right of course because they only afflict godless sinners who do things no righteous Christian would ever imagine doing, except for those innocent little babies who are born with those horrible diseases for which they must have done some horrible sinnin' for God to give them that virus. . . .

No, we don't mind having a little Christianity shoved in our faces or down our throats because it's only a little bit and we can just ignore it if we want to. Just like we'll ignore the screams of the pagans who are being burned at the stake for not converting or the cries of the Jews who are herded into ghettoes or the wailing of the Muslims who are bombed to bloody hell because they aren't good Christian human beings but have the temerity to be godless heathens sitting on all that lovely oil.