CNN - U.S. [amber] alert for stolen fetus (WTF!?)

[da_chimperor]

(CNN) -- The U.S. state of Missouri has warned authorities to be on the alert after a fetus was cut from the womb of a homicide victim in the town of Skidmore, the Nodaway County Sheriff's Department has said.

Authorities say Bobbi Jo Stinnett was killed around 3 p.m. (4 p.m. ET) and "the unborn child was removed from her body by the person or persons who committed the crime."

"The victim was eight months pregnant at the time of her death and medical personnel indicate that the child may be viable."

The subject of the search is described as "an 8-month-old white female fetus."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/17/missouri.fetus/index.html

This is pretty fucked up, but wouldn't an 8 month old fetus presently outside the womb be called a baby?

[illflem]

1. That's what I would call it

but the fundy MSM prefers fetus for the sensationalist appeal.

[ElectroPrincess]

2. Exactly ... by definition a fetus is an "unborn child"

But hey, we're talking bimbo USA Infotainment Networks that claims to pass for <cough> hard news.

FETUS (defined) In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

Could the whorish USA mainstream news cable networks get any more tasteless and absurd with their presentations?

Oh damn, I should not have asked the above.

Of course they can. :P

[area51]

5. BBC also

Sadly, I even heard the BBC refer to the fetus in the Peterson case as an "unborn child".

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Maybe they thought people would care more about a fetus

than about a baby. I think a lot of fundies in MO think this, to look at the billboards there.

[leftchick]

11. You are right. Only a fetus matters to those creeps...

once it is born you can forget about it!

[Changenow]

16. Certainly that belief dictates policy.

Prolife = pro fetal life.

The kid's already here, that makes it a deadbeat.

[imenja]

7. the point of an Amber alert is to inform everyone

The Amber alert depends on widespread notification, to save the life of a child. There must be some hope the baby is still alive.
If it were your child, you'd want an Amber alert as well. Why is it that you feel more outraged at the media than the crime itself?

[Changenow]

17. The problem, I think, is that they didn't call it a baby or child.

Not that the Amber alert was issued.


If they thought the fetus didn't survive the crime, it would be a stillborn baby, not a fetus, and not worthy of the use of the Amber Alert warning.

[elehhhhna]

35. It's not 8 months old. It's 8 month gestation--a newborn.

People will be looking for a nice fat baby when it is in fact one day old and possibly a preemie, at that.

[traco]

105. One month premature infant is another way to say it n/t

[JohnOneillsMemory]

93. Key words: internet chat group, computer forensics, DNA sample,

This story is being weaponized into trading freedom for security, the chief tool of American fascism. The neo-cons are building a police state to 'save our kids.'

They are destroying freedom to save it by attacking the internet, the last drums of the resistance movement and by also instilling fear in every family to willingly give up their privacy and civil liberties FOR THE KIDS!

The pregnant mother met her killer on an internet chat group!
Y'know, where evil-doers like US lurk in wait to snare the innocent.

The >Authorities!< found the perp by examining the 'computer evidence.' Thank goodness for Big Brother! Ta-da!

The baby was identified as belonging to the slain mother with DNA samples. Why, let's have everyone give bio-markers to The State!
Here in California, supposedly voters ok'd a measure allowing cops to take DNA samples from arrested 'suspects,' NOT CONVICTED CRIMINALS. Welcome to a 'Minority Report' movie made into reality.

This is all tied together by the Amber Alert system to save our kids from evil-doers.

Have you seen www.ready.gov? It's the Homeland Security disaster preparedness info site with a special FEMA section for kids called 'Disaster Action Kids' with a graphic stolen from the famous painting called 'The Scream.'

No, I'm not kidding. Learn to know psy-ops propaganda when you see it.

So here's my standard rap about how to deal with a Propagandized USA:

I hope this makes sense to the many new DU-ers who are only just starting to try and understand why so many good people embrace terrible things and call it 'morality' and what to do about it.

Psychology is the most important tool for understanding how we got into this mess and why.

Left, Right, Center comprise a FALSE VOCABULARY TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE
OF KILLING PEOPLE FOR MONEY.

Some people get the scam and some don't and enable it creating a very confused American public split into
1) Those who kill people for money and hide the evidence
2) Those who don't and fight to expose the evidence

This polarity of awareness within the two main political parties alienates some who choose to sit between murder and justice and call this 'Centrism.' But denying justice is not moderation, it is STILL INJUSTICE.

"Because I don't trust the 'radical fringe' who want to either
1) throw all the Jews in the oven (right wing)
OR
2) throw none of the Jews in the oven." (left wing)

"Yes, all things in moderation. So the right answer is in the middle.See? Politics is all about...compromise.
-Compromising your values." (DLC/DNC)

The Tactic We Must Deal With Or Die:
Psy-ops culture war tactics of Orwellification-
'Weaponize the good, demonize the outraged liberals who protest this.'

This is the way the domestic culture war (psy-ops propaganda to intentionally stir people up and chill dissent) works:

Take something, like the US government, do terrible things with it.

Then, when liberals criticize the terrible things, claim they are criticizing the good part and so 'liberals must be bad.'

"They hate us for our freedom."
"They are jealous of our virtue because they are sooooo bad."
Amazingly, this really resonates in A MASTER RACE MENTALITY!

OR:

Neo-cons put a baby in hot water.
Liberals accuse them of abuse.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate babies.'

Christmas has been weaponized the exact same way.

Neo-cons use religion to kill people with the New Crusades.
Liberals cite First Amendment separation of church and state.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate God, Jesus, Santa, etc.'

Neo-cons use our children as troops to kill for oil.
Liberals scream bloody murder.
Neo-cons claim 'liberals hate our troops.'

That last one is the most dangerous because it will lead to a Tienanmin Square situation where our own troops will be called in to stomp on 'enemies of the state' or PROTESTERS.
http://museums.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
(Photos of Tienanmin Square Massacre of Protesters)

The Inaugaral parade will see Bush* literally hiding behind our troops so that the hostility of the protesters will be used to claim that liberals are against the troops 'just like the Fallujan insurgents.'

Unh-oh. Orwellification of 'save our troops from war' into 'kill our troops by not supporting the war.'

January 20, 2005 is the next big psy-op event to create a Brown Shirt movement in this heavily armed and polarized country.

SO...

Re-Orwellification OR Flipping the Polarity on Evil Back to Good:

The Master Race mentality of American Exceptionalism Saving the World and the Christian-Inanity of being the wrathful smiting 'Chosen Few' are the binary agents of American Fascism.

There's no time to back up 358 degrees to explain to the public how the democratic humanity of 'We the People' + 'All God's Children' has been perverted into American fascist 'Divine King Stomping out Satanic Infidels.'

SO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE! CHANNEL THE PASSION FOR VENGEANCE INTO
A PASSION FOR JUSTICE! People WANT to be part of a dramatic movement in their lives which TV has turned into a movie script starring Arnold Schwarzenegger, Indiana Jones, and Mel Gibson fighting evil-doers.

Fight propaganda with...PROPER-GANDA!!!
I recommend pushing forward just 2 degrees USING those so so deeply entrenched-through-propaganda attitudes with a campaign of renewed reverence for

1) The Bill of Rights and US Constitution (“Yes, America is great because of…”)
2) Jesus' teachings about caring for the poor and needy. (“…is moral because of…”)

These are the tenets of The American Revolution AND Christian values which define liberalism!! This is the ‘Just Father’ model of government that replaced the ‘Strong Father’ dictator hundreds of years ago.

I just told a Navy recruiter standing in line for lunch all about Operation Vigilant Warrior, Peak Oil, Bush/Saudi-financed terrorism etc. in a friendly way and concluded "I know people like you are trying to do the right thing but you're being given bad info."

He was friendly and seemed interested saying "Thanks, I'll go look that up when I get back to my computer." People want to do the right thing based on what they hear.

We must flip the polarity of these ideas back to caring for ALL people instead of Republican Eugenics that justifies death by both poverty and war as being necessary 'collateral damage' for the greater good of the herd.

Don't let the fascists push us back into the bloody past.
Help guide your neighbors towards the Evolving Door so they aren't part of the murder-for-profit scam. Tell them how it works and has deceived them despite their good intentions

[ikojo]

110. Buuuut it for the chiiiiiiiiiiillllldrennnnnnnnnnnnnnn

is the same lie the government and media used to drum up support for failed "war on drugs." In the 80s most people were rightfully sceptical about peeing in cups for a desk job or any job. Now not only do people pee in a cup they also write down all the prescription drugs they take and for what reason.

It's for the kids...don't dare question anything done for the chiiillldrennnnnn.

[imenja]

3. Must have been the father

Perhaps wanting to avoid proof of paternity. Whoever it was, it is one of the sickest crimes I've heard of in a while.

[Scairp]

59. Not the first I've heard of

Unfortunately, this is not the first time I have heard such a story. There was one about ten years ago or so here in this country. A pregnant woman disappeared, was found murdered and the baby was gone. They did catch the person who did it; another woman who had recently lost a pregnancy. The baby lived and was returned to his (I think it was a boy) father.

[melnjones]

69. unfortunately

there is a lot of money to be gained by "selling" babies who can be adopted at a high price by parents who can't have children. Happens all the time in other countries. Guatemala is one example. Americans adopt Guatemalan babies all the time but the majority have been stolen from poor families.

[ikojo]

111. Wow! Where online would I find information about

Guatemalan babies having been stolen from poor families and subsequently adopted by well off Americans?

[Red State Rebel]

60. Father cleared - they are married and wanted the baby very much.

How sad for this family.

[imenja]

82. yes, it's awful

but quite miraculous police found the child so quickly. Thank goodness for Amber alerts.

[OnlyInAmerica]

94. Shouldn't be so quick to judge

Looks like a woman who wanted a baby did it. I suppose it's just easier to blame it on a man.

[imenja]

96. idle speculation, not judgment

Like imaging who you think is guilty reading a mystery novel. I never meant to imply it was anything but idle speculation. Judgment is for juries.
I thought of that basketball player who had his unborn child and it's mother killed because he didn't want to pay child support.

[leftchick]

4. Yes it is a BABY!

I can't stand living in the United Fundamentalist States anymore!

:grr:

[imenja]

10. I'm confused

Why is referring it to a "fetus" as opposed to a baby fundamentalist?

[leftchick]

13. perhaps because fundies only care about the fetus??

:eyes:

[imenja]

21. You have to be a fundamentalist to care about the life of a child?

I find that a horrifying notion. An Amber alert means they are looking for a missing child, they have an expectation that the baby may still be alive. The woman did not have an abortion. This was a close to term baby ripped from her womb. I strongly suggest you think about what you're saying. I refuse to relinquish concern for human life to the Right.

[wildwww2]

26. The Right has no concern for human life. 100,000 dead Iraqi`s is proof.

Don`t you think there were thousands of pregnant females in the mix there? This act is horrible. But does not even register on the radar screen compared to what we have allowed Bu$h and his maggots to do to unborn fetuses. Or whatever the rightwing assholes want to call them today. Some people really care about human life. Others care about their core issues. But only among selected humans.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[imenja]

28. all life is valuable

I'm not defending the position of the Christian Right. I'm contesting the idea that no one but them cares about the life of this child....if I understood the other poster's remarks. The post was very brief, so I may have misread it's intent.
I don't think we need to compare the value of one life or 10,000 over another. Every life is valuable. Every act that takes a life is reprehensible--be it war or a murder like this.

[The Stranger]

52. If all life is valuable, why aren't there 100,000 amber alerts for Iraqis?

Why the double standard for human life?

[imenja]

56. ummm . . .

because an Amber alert is issued to locate a missing child authorities believe to have been abducted, often by a pedophile who is likely to violate and kill the child if not apprehended immediately. The law is named for a little girl killed in precisely those circumstances.
It's not intended to protest or express outrage to murder. Amber alerts aren't issued if the child is known to be dead.

[The Stranger]

66. Okay, now answer the second question.

The first one was rhetorical (in case you couldn't tell).

[imenja]

81. Whose double standard?

Clearly the American media has one. You can answer why as well as I can. But I resent any implication that I have a double standard in regard to human life. I have been active in protesting and working against the war for months before the US invaded. Because someone raises concern for one person's life doesn't mean they don't care about others. I find it odd that so many people respond to any moral or ethical concern by saying, how many people has Bush killed, etc.... As though it's not possible to care about lives not taken by our own government. There is something profoundly disturbing in such a response that I think demonstrates a disregard to life similar to that taken by the right wing media toward Iraqis.

[imenja]

83. success of the Amber alert

By the way, that little girl's life was saved today as a result of the Amber alert. Amazingly, the police have already found her. Amber alerts are an impressive improvement in law enforcement that help protect our nation's children.

[Sterling]

40. That is why Amber alerts are hilariously ironic.

I am supposed to get all worked over this kind of shit with all the other stuff going on on the world. Anything to keep the MSM from reporting on the massive death we are dishing out all over the world.

[leftchick]

31. are you being obtuse intentionally?

a BABY does not mean the same to a fundies as a FETUS!!!

fetus > baby! comprende?

[imenja]

32. your point?

So your point is that CNN deliberately used the term fetus to appeal to the fundamentalists, because if they said baby no one would care about the child? You can't actually believe that. Let's not get so overwhelmed with prejudice we can't see straight. Fundamentalists love their children just like the rest of us.
Presumably a fetus can't live outside the womb and even fundamentalists know that. I'm not intimately familiar with fundamentalist vocabulary, but I wouldn't be surprised if they used the word baby to refer to even stem cells. They see all cells, even zygotes, as human beings.
It was difficult to know the intent of your post since you said so little. I asked you a question. I'm not a mind reader.

[Lerkfish]

39. read my response, further down..I think it explains the issue and your

(IMHO) misinterpretation of the issue.

The issue is EXACTLY that they are manipulating nomenclature or semantics to elicit emotional responses like your own.

[leftchick]

57. so I was right....

it was intentional. :eyes:

[imenja]

61. Sure

I imagine you were. There is obviously a whole current of discussion involving such terms that I'm not familiar with, and I appreciate the clarification. I have to say, however, I don't see how the word "fetus" elicits any more sympathy or outrage than baby. I can see why the Right would prefer "fetus" to "stem cell" or "embryo," but in comparison to the term "baby" it seems far more clinical, less human.

[jukes]

34. you're trying too hard

are you an apologist? the nomenclature is the point of the discussion, and the propaganda use is the concern.

no1 here wd dispute the value of searching for this child, alive or dead, but we object strongly to using this tragedy for political gain, and the fundies (and their cynical politician partners) are the disreputable and disgusting ghouls that mislabel the baby for their political agenda.

[sarcasmo]

109. Time to go to Canada, for an Abortion/health care & gay marriage

When you hear this story on cable news the only thing you hear is fetus. The dead Mother is barely mentioned and don't think for a minute these anti abortion freaks don't love this story. Kiss yet another one of your freedoms good bye





Ignore your freedoms, they will go away.

[Lerkfish]

38. I think you may be missing the point...

its a given we are all concerned for the welfare of this child.

what the objection appears to be is the use of the term "fetus", which is technically incorrect, but also SEEMS to be used in this case to manipulate the natural concern we all have over the wellbeing of this child to extrapolate it to benefit the cause of anti-abortionists. Its an attempt to start a slippery slope...

I think the very outrage you (I think mistakenly) feel is precisely the emotional manipulation effect they wish to create semantically.

[imenja]

54. yes, I misunderstood the point

which is why I asked for clarification about the term fetus vs. baby. But my outrage has nothing to do with the term. Killing a child is an outrageous act, and this particular crime is particularly gruesome.
By the way, I just heard the crime mentioned in a headline on CNN. The anchorperson said: " a woman was killed and the fetus was cut from her body. Because authorities believe there is a possibility the baby is still alive, they have issued an Amber alert." That strikes me as fairly accurate uses of language--fetus while in the woman's body, baby once out. Now, I don't care about defending CNN. That's not my point. But I do resent the idea that if I express a concern for the child's life, I'm somehow being manipulated. I feel just as concerned for the lives of soldiers and civilians killed in Iraq and the men and women raped in Abu Graib and Gitmo. I believe human life is sacred.

[nodehopper]

98. I think the point is

that the fundies and BushCo have proved that they ONLY care about the fetus and not the life of the mother. So, when the Laci & Connor bill was being hashed out, those troglodytes were AGAINST a stricter punishment for an assault on BOTH the mother and the fetus, even though logically that should be even more of a deterrent, because they only want to create legistlations that unambiguously privilege fetus over moher.

[imenja]

100. understood, thanks. n/t.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

43. Not until they are sure it was live-born it aint.

[leftchick]

58. well even if it is dead....

it is no longer in the womb so it is not a fetus.

[illflem]

8. My first thought when I heard the headline

on the news this morning was that someone stole a fetus to do their own stem cell research.

[imenja]

30. You're joking right?

You know that's not what stem cells are, right? We probably need an icon that signals, I meant that sarcastically or in jest.

[NickB79]

87. Stem cells ARE found in fetuses

Not so much in an 8-month old fetus instead of a 2-month old embryo, but they are still present in considerable numbers. One source of embryonic stem cells is (or was, until Bush cut off funding) aborted fetuses.

[imenja]

95. fertility clinics

I thought embryonic stem cells were the cells that were not yet formed into what we might recognize as a baby. They are important because they contain the blueprint for future development.
I would think an 8 month term baby would be far too developed. I obviously have no knowledge of science or could answer this more definitely, but if an 8 month baby would work, why not still-born child? I believe scientists want the earliest possible cells, which is why fertility clinics are how most scientists (who don't use federal funding) get their stem cells.

For me, the craziest thing about opposition to stem cells is refusing to consider the embryos from the fertility clinics. Those embryos are simply thrown away. Why can't they be used for research that will save lives. I've never heard the right argue against fertility treatment.
It seems to me a reasonable compromise on the issue would be to allow research using embryos created for other reasons--like fertility treatment--yet they could still discourage those generated from voluntary abortions.

[Ganja Ninja]

9. The Fetus is described as looking remarkably like a

premature baby.

[Changenow]

18. lol n/t

[liberal N proud]

12. If they would stop worrying about the unborn and concentrate

on the problems that the previously born are living with this country would be a whole lot better off.
We are going to protect the unborn so they can be born into poverty and grow up in an under funded education system so when they fail at school and can not get a job, they will join the military and die in a senseless war to support the wealthy interests.

[displacedtexan]

14. Things I learned on CSI

The idiot who thought s/he could cut out the baby (possibly to hide proof of paternity) probably didn't take the placenta... and probably left his/her DNA at the scene.

[imenja]

25. delete

delete

[WildClarySage]

15. once more blurring the distinction between

"baby" and "fetus".

[Deja Q]

19. Get Mulder and Scully. They had a similar case once before...

Those fetus thiefs are quite vulgar dudes, that's for sure.

[booksenkatz]

20. More at this link

http://www.stjoenews-press.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=60008&SectionID=81&SubSectionID=272

From the article here, it sounds like the Amber Alert people are the ones who wouldn't put out an alert without a description of a born child; they said that this child was not born. :crazy: So the authorities had no choice but to put out an alert for a "fetus."

And here's the victim's website -- an animal lover :(

http://www.happyhavenfarms.com

The whole thing is just so sad and sickening.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

92. Who controls and words the "Amber Alerts"? Is it a gov't. agency?

[RetroLounge]

22. Well that didn't take long

The new Laci Peterson for the Media...

RL

[katinmn]

29. MSM must be salivating over this one.

It's a sick crime for sure.

[Chipper Chat]

33. Paula Zahn got up 2 hours early this morning ....

just to work on her op story for this evening. She is frothing as we speak. And Greta Van Sustren is so excited she is peeing every 5 minutes!

[genieroze]

50. LOL. eom

[ilovenicepeople]

84. So does this mean that Laci Peterson is officialy yesterdays news?

:cry: How Evil can Evil get?

[countryjake]

23. I'd imagine they're having some trouble with their headlines.

The report I just heard on CNN was that there is an AMBER Alert out for an eight-month old baby girl. Now how screwed up is that? This is technically a stolen fetus, premature baby, -2 month old child, whatever; it most assuredly is NOT an eight-month old baby girl!

Don't know how many Christian fundamental extremists any of the rest of you are actually acquainted with, but a few I've had it out with, over when life begins, what the definition of a citizen covers, or whether or not a three month old fetus should be called "baby", this was a sticking point. The notion of counting the months & years of their children's lives, beginning with the day of conception, however weird that sounds to normal folks, is pretty popular with some of them. When I listened to the news & heard that the fellow from Missouri, who was a local reporter, stressing that ridiculous line..."eight-month old baby girl"...all I could think of were some of the anti-choice nuts I know. That's what they would say.

Anyway, the ticker is saying eight-month fetus, which I think would be the best description, if they honestly hope to locate her.

[rodeodance]

37. ultimately it will be the legal language for this state to decide whether

to refer to 'it' as an infant or fetus.

[bushisanidiot]

45. Wouldn't "1 month premie" be more appropriate than "8 mth old fetus"?

she is a premature baby.. unless, as someone else stated that she died while still in the womb then she'd be an 8 mth old fetus.

but that's just my opinion of how the situation SHOULD be viewed.

in any case, what a horrible story. my gawd.

[melnjones]

70. the word fetus

at least implies the lack of a birthing process... With the word baby I think of a clean child wrapped in a blanket, when in this case who knows the condition of the baby, how the umbilical cord was cut, whether he/she still has blood on him/her, etc. Plus, when the baby was extracted, he/she WAS a fetus, ie still in the womb. It makes sense to me.

[bushisanidiot]

72. I don't think the lack of a birthing process is the reason she is

called a fetus. women have c-sections every day and i think this is probably something similar, but far more grotesque.

as a mother i remember referring to my little ones as 'baby' when i could feel them move. i'm sure this mother felt the same about her's.

i guess the word fetus almost sounds sub-human. at eight months development, this fetus was more than just a clump of cells. anyway, it's just weird to read the amber alert for a fetus. very bizarre.

[UpInArms]

24. Skidmore is a weird place

and the ppl there are .....

a bit of history

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ken_mcelroy/4.html?sect=13

excerpt:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/ken_mcelroy/4-2-In-Broad-Daylight,-book.jpg

Sheriff Estes heard the radio call for a shooting in Skidmore and hurried back to town to find McElroy dead. He could see that the new Chevy bore bullet holes from several guns.

It was a murder in broad daylight on a small-town
Main Street
that was witnessed by up to four dozen people. But the sheriff soon learned that nobody saw a thing, even the men Trena McElroy said were standing just a few steps away when the shooting began.

Skidmore citizens bid good riddance.

[ikojo]

112. In one article I read on AIM news, it said

the woman who stole the infant had even showed her off to her pastor!

[catmandu57]

27. Christ it's 15 miles from here

I know some Stinnets, though I've never met this woman, this is just sick and messed up.

[rodeodance]

36. husband is ruled out according this Boston Globe article (does not say

the reason)



http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/17/fetus_taken_from_slain_womans_womb/

Fetus taken from slain woman's womb
December 17, 2004

SKIDMORE, Mo. -- A 23-year-old woman who was eight months pregnant was killed at her home here Thursday and had the fetus cut from her womb, authorities said.

The Nodaway County Sheriff's Department was investigating the afternoon killing of the woman and they were searching for the baby, who they believed could have survived. Authorities had not reported the finding of the baby late Thursday.

"Someone was wanting a baby awful bad," said Sheriff Bill Espey.

The victim was found inside her home by her mother, who called police at 3:38 p.m., authorities said. Paramedics tried to revive the woman; she was later pronounced dead at St. Francis Hospital in Maryville.

[DoNotRefill]

64. A part of my brain....

wants to see horrible, horrible things done to the sick fuck who did this.

Life in prison without parole in a PMITA prison isn't enough punishment for the perpetrator of this.

[HeeBGBz]

41. It's an EX-fetus

Technicality solved.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

42. Fetus would be the proper term, since there is no proof of live

birth registered with the state or county.

Odd, but true.

[Xithras]

75. Nope, even stillborns are considered "babies" after they are delivered.

No definition of the term "fetus" extends outside of the womb. Once it exits the mothers body, it's either a liveborn or stillborn baby.

[countryjake]

78. Ever been in a Zoology department lab?

There are literally rows of jars full of formaldehyde, some with human specimens in them, each one labeled "human fetus", not "baby". (Unless, of course, some extremist has spied them & created a movement to infiltrate colleges all over the country, to force the "decent burial" of these educational tools.)

There is no guarantee that they are even looking for a live creature; the woman had her fetus removed from her body, forcibly & illegally.

And I've already spoken to one nut-case neighbor, who is now moaning & bewailing the fact that the news media is calling that "precious baby" a fetus. People like that do not even use words like embryo or fetus!

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

44. Yeah, that would be a newborn baby, not a fetus.

By that logic, I've got a 34 month old fetus. He's feeding himself breakfast and watching Sesame Street right now. Pretty amazing for a fetus, eh?

[Ms_Mary]

49. Uh, yeah. Outside the woman, a baby 'born' at 8 months is a newborn. nt

[klook]

46. What do you call the birth of an 8-month-old fetus by Caesarian Section?

Scientifically, this is no different. It's a horrible, disgusting crime, to kill the mother and steal the baby. But that is NOT a fetus, plain and simple.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

48. Again, they DO NOT know if the fetus was alive, and since

it has not been registered as a live birth, it is a fetus.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

51. Is a stillborn child also called a fetus, even at full term?

Just wondering.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

65. yes

[Xithras]

76. No.

See my other post. Stillborn babies are still considered babies. The definition of "fetus" is "a post-embryonic mammal from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth".

Whether or not the baby is born alive is irrelevant. Legally, and according to every medical definition, it's a baby once it leaves the mothers womb.

[genieroze]

47. There are some real sickos out there.

Either someone wanted to steal the baby and killed the mother for it or the murderer had a burst of conscience and wanted to save the child after murdering the mother for some unknown reason, like robbery.

[Griffy]

79. Bet when caught its a anti-choice zealot,(fetus inside, baby outside womb)

[SoCalDem]

53. This happened in New Mexico when we lived there

Some wacko woman was stalking a pregnant woman...actually waited outside when she went to her final OB/GYN appointment.. I have forgotten the details, but apparently, she killed the woman and did a DIY caesarian section and did steal the baby..

They found the poor woman's body in a remote off-highway area..

Just plain sick:(

[AspenRose]

68. It happened again in NM recently

This woman in Espanola befriended a pregnant woman, then hired a goon to hit her unconscious over the head when she was 8 months, hoping to induce labor while she was out and take her baby.

She was recently sentenced to 18 years.

Sick, sick people.

*DR, almost 8 months pregnant herself* :scared:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

91. I remember there was a case like this in recent years, also a woman

was the perp/baby stealer. If I recall the people were African Americans, I don't remember where from. I'm surprised that case wasn't mentioned in the news about this one.

[Whoa_Nelly]

55. Fetus v. Baby is not the issue

If this Amber Alert catches the sick fuck who did this heinous crime, then that will be time to make an issue of correct verbage. The sensationalism of this particular headline and alert is effective at the moment if it serves to find the perp and possibly save the poor kid to whom this happened.

Meanwhile, if the alert becomes clouded over verbage disagreement, then it's no longer an alert, it's just an issue.

Just my opinion...
:tinfoilhat:

[lefttoright]

106. Well Said

And in my humble opinion, this debate is not worthy of the time spent on it here. The central issue was a fetus (read unborn child) forcibly removed from it's mother's womb and spirited away to parts unknown. The horror's of this act of brutality should be the focus of the thread.

[DoNotRefill]

62. Ummm....when the fetus was cut out....

didn't it become an infant if it survived?


When my wife had her c-section, it went from being a fetus to an infant once it got out and started breathing...

[liberal N proud]

63. This is Skidmore Missouri

Dose anyone remember the book/movie In Broad Daylight"?

This is a story about a town bully that was taken out by the townspeople because the law could not get him. Skidmore is where that happened.
I lived near there for many years and for a small peaceful community it is bazaar how much happens there. The people of this community are great people and would do anything to help you. But cross them and look out.
My wife is going to flip when she hears this.

[AllegroRondo]

67. My first thought when I heard this

seriously - was that this was done by some anti-abortion wackos who want more laws passed protecting babies before they are born, like the Laci Peterson thing.

[Megahurtz]

71. Probably I month premature baby

would have been the proper term, since now people are looking for a baby, not a fetus. Fetus could be just another backdoor Roe-vs-Wade attempt.

I heard something like this happened in California too, and another woman was the one that did it. Sick fuck.

Maybe it's the new trend. "I don't have a baby so I want yours" It wouldn't surprise me either if it was an anti-abortion wacko trying to make a point.

Or someone selling the baby. Babies are big money!

It may be sold to a couple that want a baby so damn bad because they can't have their own. You know, the kind of people that want a baby so fucking bad that they take a buttload of fertility pills and then end up having a WHOLE LITTER!

Those people are sick selfish fucks too in my opinion, why don't they just adopt? As if there aren't already enough unwanted children in the world that need help.

Then for some people fertility pills don't work.

This type of situation could easily be creating this baby carving scenario over and over again.

Pro-life wackos think abortion should be outlawed? Well I think fertility pills should be outlawed. They make for obsessive sick fucks like people that want a baby so bad they'll go get one carved out.

[catmandu57]

73. I'm speculating, but,

there have been other cases just like this. When the people responsible were caught it came out that a woman had been claiming to be pregnant to keep someone in a relationship.
When the time for delivery grew near, and she must produce a baby soon, out of desparation she hired someone to do exactly this, get a baby at any cost.
It's sick, but, it's happened before.

[liberalpragmatist]

74. "white female fetus"

Despite the morbid nature of the crime (if there's a Hell I hope whoever did this rots in it) I can't help but find that classification kind of amusing. As in "be on the lookout for a white, female fetus."

And yeah, it would be "baby" if it were outside the womb.

[American Tragedy]

77. Umm...stolen fetus?

You know, I was born at eight months, fully formed, and when I emerged the nurses very clearly referred to me as a baby. They didn't say, "Oh, what a beautiful fetus!" I just asked my mom.

[leesa]

80. Ya'd think, but then RW Right to Lifers wouldn't care about it.

[FizzFuzz]

85. what's weird to me is that this poor woman

seems to have been reduced to nothing more than a vehicle for a fetus. Or whatever you want to call it.

All the outrage I'm seeing focuses on the contents of her uterus, and nearly no mention of the once living breathing woman herself, who deserves justice and outrage and tears for her potential, IN HER OWN RIGHT!

Female murder victims can now expect no advocates whatsoever, unless their bellies were full? (or unless of course, she was the victim of some bizarre and horrific sex-murder. That's always good for some attention.)

:disgusted:

[nodehopper]

99. um, yeah!

that's why when the Laci & Connor bill was being worded the Right was vehemently against increasing punishment for an assault on the Woman, focusing only on the fetus.

[FizzFuzz]

101. what's sadder is I'm seeing that focus on the fetus/baby right here!

I expect the woman-as-delivery-system for future consumers/canon fodder/brood hens from the RW. But seeing everyone here talking exclusively about the kid--> :mad:

[nodehopper]

102. Oh, I'm totally with you.

Woman as vessel/chatel is part of this new "culture of life" discourse and should be called out everywhere it rears its ugly head.

[FizzFuzz]

107. I sure do that!

"culture of life" my ass.

It's part of my sig, in fact: "nice girls don't say no to sexism"--(not sure if sigs are on at the moment)

:D :toast:

[The Judged]

86. Upon removal of the fetus from womb, did it become kidnapping?

"Stolen fetus" invokes, in my mind, the notion of living beings being reduced to things, while, in business, the corporation has been ordained to have status as living beings, absent human responsibility.

[leftchick]

88. New AP Update: One Charged With Killing Mom, Taking Baby

~snip~

MARYVILLE, Mo. - A baby girl that had been cut out of her mother's womb was found after a frantic search, and authorities arrested the woman they say strangled the mother and stole the child.


The child was found Friday in seemingly good health in an eastern Kansas home. A red Toyota similar to a description offered earlier by police was in the driveway.


Lisa M. Montgomery, 36, of Melvern, Kan., was arrested later Friday and charged with kidnapping resulting in death.


Authorities say Bobbie Jo Stinnett, 23, was found Thursday in a pool of blood inside her small white home in Skidmore, a town in northwest Missouri.

.... so it wasn't a Fetus stolen after all? :shrug:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041218/ap_on_re_us/pregnant_woman_slain

[AliciaKeyedUp]

89. I have always been against the death penalty

I may have to reconsider for this case. Imagine killing a woman and butchering her to steal her baby. It's almost beyond my imagination.

[Catchawave]

97. How could the killer's husband NOT know she was pregnant?

I have a feeling Ms. Montgomery is a tad overweight?

[MADem]

103. Here she is, in an undated photo

Guess she always wanted a girl, judging from the pink on the pooch. Sick woman.

[rebecca_herman]

90. Wow

Sick, sick case. Poor woman. I don't understand why it was being called a stole fetus? It was born alive at 8 months... once it was born it was a kidnapped baby, not a fetus... well, sad case all around. I feel terrible for the poor husband, and the woman who died, and imagine what this kid will feel if she ever finds out how and why her mom died. :(

[wankawanka]

104. that is so sick what she did to that woman

she needs to be in jail for ever

[imsocoolerthanyou]

108. man..you guys have totally taken the bait

don't you get it? using "fetus" is the correct way to frame this debate. just look at conservative blogs, like the Corner. they are pissed off because CNN did not call the fetus a baby.

the religious right believes that anything in a womb is an "unborn child," a baby, and they would never want to use a scientific-sounding word like "fetus."

you have to understand the opposition, not just lash out at the MSM in such a knee-jerk way.

[ikojo]

113. I just looked at the website of the woman who was

murdered. So sad. She and her husband sound like they really cared
for the puppies.

What a senseless loss of life.

May Mrs Stinnett rest in peace.

[Lauri]

114. It appears that woman is being charged with "kidnapping

that resulted in the murder" of the mother.

It seems that the murder of the mother is a second thought in regard to the charges against this woman.