Hagel blasts civilian bosses in Pentagon (Says draft may be necessary)

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2004/12/21/local/doc41c79eaabbbb4005447499.txt

Deteriorating conditions in Iraq are a consequence of "the arrogance and incompetency of the civilian leadership at the Pentagon," Sen. Chuck Hagel said Monday.

Increasing violence and instability spring from "the accumulation of a series of bad judgments," the Nebraska Republican said.

Pointing to decisions to disband the Iraqi army, dismantle the Baathist government bureaucracy and attempt to secure the country with an inadequate number of U.S. troops, Hagel suggested "the buck does stop somewhere." snip

Hagel told the students increasing deployment of a downsized military, with heavy reliance on National Guard and Reserve troops, eventually may force future consideration of a military draft.

"A moral societal concern" is also at issue, he said: "Is it fair to ask a very few people to carry all the burden, do all the dying?"

Hopefully, he said, the nation can avoid reinstituting compulsory military service.

more

[Florida_Geek]

1. But But Bush promised no DRAFT.....

Rove has to come up with something new to call the DRAFT...

[Mike Niendorff]

3. how about this : "compulsory volunteerism"

The military thus remains "all-volunteer", and Bush doesn't have to admit he's a liar. Everybody's happy.


MDN

[Florida_Geek]

4. No Patriotic volunteerism

have to have a red flag around it.

[NNN0LHI]

6. "Freedom Volunteerism" Has a nice ring to it n/t

[Florida_Geek]

9. That would work

:)

[durablend]

11. "Freedom Fighters Initiative"

I've said it before...they can design a whole media/ad campaign around it.

Think about the merchandising opportunities...buttons, caps, T-shirts, bumper stickers (and more). A portion of your contribution will go to buy armor for the troops.

The freepers will lap that up...no doubt.

[yorkiemommie1]

20. jessica simpson and brittney spears

can be the new poster girls, like betty grable was.

[0007]

51. ....and that good looking smiling chick giving the U.S. troops

a shot of leg in a see through swimming suit.


]b]What's her name again?

[villager]

27. yes, but the Freepers will try and keep their cowardly asses

...stateside, and let others do their war-jisming for them...

[brucefan]

54. The New Millenium Peace Corps n/t

[The Zanti Regent]

71. Make George P Bush the #1 Draft Pick

and put that little prick on the front line.

Bush killed my only child, I have nothing left for his killing machine.

[Norquist Nemesis]

7. Freedom Service!

Well...Bush keeps saying "Freedom is on the march!"

[Vidar]

13. My nomination for best bushistic oxymoron.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. My guess is June 2005 for an announcement

anyone else want to take a guess?

[hang a left]

33. I say that it will be sooner.

April.

[peacebird]

53. the draft boards were ordered last year to be fully functional by April

so I believe the draft - under a bright shiny new "non-draft" euphemism will begin by May.

from PBS "While Congressional and administration sources say the chances of a new draft are remote, the military is preparing contingency plans, just in case. In late 2003, the Selective Service System began quietly filling vacancies in local draft boards around the country, and has begun creating procedures for a "special skills" draft of linguists and computer specialists, in the event that the administration asks for and Congress approves a draft."


http://www.pbs.org/flashpointsusa/20040629/infocus/topic_02/

[Barkley]

52. In June college students are home and can't immediately protest

Bush will have a head start in framing the draft and it will take time for college students get organized and reply.

I suspect they will be the primary target of the draft.

The FAFSA student financial aid application requires registration with the selective service.

Next, they will expand the use of women in combat.

And finally, they will relax their objections to gays in the military.

[Theres-a]

70. march 2005

:cry:

[haele]

29. He doesn't really need a draft -

All he has to do is "suggest" (via tax cut incentives) to his corporate buddies that they shouldn't hire young people who are just out of high school or still in college for minimum wage; there's plenty of middle aged folks that need to support families that would be eager to work for just above minimum wage as long as there's some basic family health bennies tossed in.
Call it something like "Family Friendly Employment Incentive Act"; if an employee or "contract worker" needs family health care, insurance, and 401K, the government both pays the employer to provide it as well as, say, an extra tax offset for increased costs. Basically, give the employees something similar to what they call "dependent's pay" in the military. Open it up to, say, any employee with dependents that works at least 30 hours a week, which would indicate an employee that is a significant asset to the job.

IME, such a program could actually cost less to administer than the usual providing of support and family services to an increased number of military members and their dependents - and to the veteran's services those same military people would be eligible for later on.

Watch the hiring of young people without dependents plummet in the McJobs industries. Then, up the advertising even more, pushing career, pay, and bennies. Have a bunch of recruiters standing outside the temp agencies and employment centers. There ya go, almost instant generic poverty draft without the nasty label. And it's a win-win all around - tax breaks for the corporations, getting the whiny middle class families pacified, and culling out the lower class youth that otherwise has no ties or "socially redeeming talents" that could benefit the corporate culture as they grow older.

Haele

[TahitiNut]

34. A draft would be one of the best things that could happen in the next year

Hopefully it'd be gender-neutral, males and females. Nothing like actually having to put your ass on the line for the people you vote into office to wake people up.

[AndyTiedye]

45. A Draft Would Be the Fastest Way for them to End All Our Freedoms at Once

They are deliberately creating conditions which will "force" them to
start up the draft. Why would they do that?

The want more cannon fodder, but even that does not fully explain their actions.

Booosh** himself has said he'd rather be a dictator. This is the
easiest way to get there. All those pesky Constitutional rights
that we enjoy are toast if we get drafted. No freedom of speech,
no freedom of assembly, certainly no freedom of the press. Even
freedom of religion is curtailed in the military, with soldiers
being ordered to pray for Booosh and send "prayer cards" and ordered
to sack cities to fight "Satan". Military justice is an oxymoron.
Democracy is replaced by the chain of command, and Boosh** is the
top of that chain.

And we now know that once they've got you in the military, they'll
never let you out unless you are dead or too badly injured to be any
good to them.

> Hopefully it'd be gender-neutral, males and females. Nothing like
> actually having to put your ass on the line for the people you vote
> into office to wake people up.

We DIDN'T vote Booosh** into office in the first place.
We tried to vote him out, but our votes were not counted.
It is not clear that ANY amount of "waking people up" will change that.

[salin]

2. Am I wrong, or didn't he just the other day suggest that he wasn't for

Rummy's ouster "at this time"?

Talk about mixed messages. Even his words about a draft are rather mixed. Wonder if he is getting warnings to temper his rhetoric - and his compromise is to initially say what he thinks and then soften it a little bit.

[oly]

5. Where the hell is Kerry/Edwards?w Why did they drop off the edge?

Why does friggin' Hagel getting more ink than Dems? Where are the Dems? On this issue and SS and....

[NNN0LHI]

8. Its all Bill Clinton's fault n/t

[jmcgowanjm]

14. The Dems are AWOL, they will come down to shoot the wounded

after the main battle is won.

Dem Candidate winning by 8 votesWashington
Ohio, Florida see Rep Conyers, Jesse Jackon
and son
Why aren't the Dems celebrating Cynthia
McKinney

[jzorlando]

36. Celebrating Cynthia McKinney?

The last thing that we all should be doing is celebrating Cynthia McKinney the bigot. She's a disgrace to our party. There is nothing like going through Decatur and driving on Cynthia McKinney Blvd. Ack.

[robertpaulsen]

40. Bigot? Link?

[jmcgowanjm]

66. Want to make sure this is sarcasm, jzorlando n/t

[AndyTiedye]

46. The Media Pushed Us Off the Edge

> Where the hell is Kerry/Edwards?w Why did they drop off the edge?
> Why does friggin' Hagel getting more ink than Dems? Where are the
> Dems? On this issue and SS and....

Same place they were during the election campaign, trapped in a
media blackout.

[Massachusetts]

10. Draft....why not?

Something has got to wake up the MORONS who support this administration. Misery loves company!

[saigon68]

12. IRAQ-NAM

1-2-3 What are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn. The next stop is Vietnam .
5-6-7 Open up the pearly gates.
It ain’t no time to wonder why. Yippee! We’re all going to die.

[yorkiemommie1]

21. clear channel will censor this

back in the day, this and other protest songs actually got airplay!

[saigon68]

23. Yes you are Right This STUFF will never see the light of day.

They are the propaganda arm of the Neocons. I'm afraid free speech will be out of fashion in Fascist Amerika.

[Bono71]

15. The quickest way to win the white house back is for these dimwits to

institute a draft.

[leftchick]

26. no such luck! They own the voting machines!

so they could keep their policies of perpetual war and perpetual cannon fodder!

[jmcgowanjm]

16. 16 sq Km -the reason for turmoil in DC

The Iraqi resistance is currently in control of most of the city
and have forced back at least three of the largest
armored assaults in recent history.

In fact, one can make a claim that this was the largest series
of armored assault ever. The objective is 16 sq km and if
one were to normalise over time and term for
incremental intensity in firepower that this represents, then
these are historically unprecedented. Now if these were not
only repulsed, but perhaps defeated, it leads to something
that ought to be examined more carefully.

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041220&fname=fallujah&sid=1

[jmcgowanjm]

18. More reasons for frantic manuevering in DC/at Xmastime no less

On 10 November 2004, the India Daily reported that,
"Russian President Putin is taking a lead role in the
most powerful coalition of regional and superpowers in
the world. The coalition consists of India, China, Russia
and Brazil. This will challenge the superpower supremacy
of America." … "He wants to establish a long-
term Russian footprint in Latin America in order to
expand Moscow's geopolitical influence in the region. Brazil
is very open to the coalition concept where these large
countries support each other in term of trade,
economics, international politics and defense."
            Just this single strategic move means that the
new coalition embraces just over three quarters of the
world's total population, eighty percent of its natural
resources, and a majority of technical and scientific
experts.
           
What absolutely no one outside Russia and Venezuela
knew until two weeks ago, is that 20 of the fifty Mig 29 SMTs
are fully equipped to carry and fire the devastating SS-N-25
"Onyx", a devastating and
completely unstoppable Mach 2.9 ramjet anti-ship cruise
missile which skims the waves at twenty feet, before delivering
a knock out blow to its maritime target more than 200
kilometers away.
            So great is the kinetic energy at the point of impact on
the target, that Onyx can sink an American aircraft carrier
or supertanker using only a conventional penetrating
warhead. Those scientists who might doubt this
should calculate the impact energy of 5,500 pounds of
missile striking a carrier or tanker at a terminal velocity of
2,460 feet per second. It is understood that Russia is
providing Venezuela with a stockpile of forty anti-ship
Onyx missiles.
 
  Concurrently on the other side of the world, more
pieces of the strategic jigsaw were falling into place, and on
2 December 2004 the Asia Times published "China Rocks
the Geopolitical Boat with Iran Oil Deal", which is probably one
of the top stories of the century.
   America is already desperately short of energy, and it
can only get worse. Iraq is producing nothing at all as usual,
and the Republican Guard will ensure it stays that way.
OPEC will slow down production in January because it
actually has to. If the OPEC countries keep pumping at
their present outrageous rates to please America, they
will eventually destroy their own economies by
terminally damaging their producing wells. or face
devastating and total economic ruin.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/11-10-04.asp
R
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/

[reprobate]

35. jmc, that post was amazing.

In just six paragraphs you laid out the path to the end of america as a superpower.

The most dangerous thing about it is that none of this AFAIK was ever in the MSM. Most americans still think that our navy is still the soveriegn of the seas, having never heard of the 'onyx'. Now the threat of our navy embargoing someplace like venezuela will be the death of many thousands of american sailors.

It occurs to me that the 'onyx' may become russia's leading export. It's the kind of weapon that can completely negate our projection of power. Every little nation that wants to be independant of america will want a half dozen. It makes them invulnerable to attack by america. We do, after all depend on our navy to provide the air power for invasions.

The Onyx: The New Naval Destroyer.

[robertpaulsen]

39. Great links! Here's another link to the Lone Superpower Hubris backlash.

Russian-Chinese Joint Military Exercises on the Rise

by Ray McGovern

While President Bush, his neoconservative advisors and centrist Democrats bask in the glow of America's status as ''the one remaining superpower in the world,'' there are mounting signs that other major powers do not intend to hunker down and suspend their own efforts to shape history.
The most striking result of Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov's four-day visit to China last week was the agreement to hold ''substantial military exercises on Chinese territory in 2005'' (quote from Russia's Interfax news agency). This was Ivanov's second trip to Beijing this year, and Chinese President Hu Jintao used the occasion to assert that ``Sino-Russian strategic coordination has attained an unprecedentedly high level.''

Improved relations

For those familiar with the acerbic nature of Russian-Chinese relations over the years, the announcement of joint military exercises is stunning. The switch from extreme hostility to rapprochement is a sea change in the broader strategic equation. The fact that the improvement in ties has been incremental makes it no less real -- and no less a potential threat to U.S. interests.

This event, largely ignored by the U.S. media, comes on the heels of Soviet President Vladimir Putin's October visit to Beijing, where he said that bilateral relations had reached ''unparalleled heights.'' Putin then signed an agreement settling the last of the disputes along the 7,500-kilometer border between the two countries, ending the pushing and shoving that had led to armed clashes in the 1960s and '70s. Putin's visit also produced an agreement to jointly develop Russian energy reserves, an agreement that China hopes will help fuel its growing economy.

more...

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1222-22.htm

[Walt Starr]

17. Oops, guess we know why they are coming down hard on Rumsfield

Push Rumsfield out, blame the need for a draft on his incompetence, then give him a medal or something.

[NNN0LHI]

19. Rethugs are going to need someone "comforting" to the Dem's...

...to get them to let their kids get drafted without too much fuss. Enter John McCain to replace Rumsfeld. The stupid ones will fall for it too.

Don

[Rambis]

22. Tim Ryan is a God!

Congessman Ryan explains why some people believe the Bush Administration has plans to re-institute a military draft. (October 5, 2004)


http://timryan.house.gov/HoR/OH17/Hidden+Content/Floor+Speeches.htm

[BuelahWitch]

30. Saw him on TV before the election

Good guy, his constituents are lucky to have him. Definitely an up and coming Democrat.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. Is it fair to steal an election, mislead a country into a

senseless war, and then throw the military in there w/o the equipment and planning they need?

If there's a draft, I suggest it begin with the civilians in the pentagon and the white house. When Georgie Boy goes over for his term of service, then I'll be ready to talk about the need for a draft...

[yorkiemommie1]

28. or Citizens Freedom Coalition

i like that word Coalition, Has a nice twangy ring to it.

[lebkuchen]

31. Those folks who are doing all the dying volunteered

Rummy says that a draft would diminish the effectiveness of our volunteer army. Rummy believes each volunteer enlisted with a capital "S" sewn on his/her camis.

I say we test Rummy's theory at least another three years before we go to the draft, if there is still a US left to defend.

[Old Mouse]

32. So they are going to blame the draft on Rummy... n/t

[huskerlaw]

37. Hagel is my senator

and I'm never quite sure what to make of him. He is certainly not a right-wing nutjob, but does tend to vote with the Repubs the vast majority of the time. And then he gives speeches like that...where he sounds a heck of a lot like John Kerry (no draft, work on the diplomacy, build international coalitions, etc.).

I'm hesitant to throw my support behind him or even speak out very loudly in his behalf because I think he may be positioning himself for a 2008 Presidential bid. On the other hand, I feel the need to give kudos, since he's one of the very few Republicans who is consistently pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. :shrug:

[KeepItReal]

47. Do you think Hagel got to Congress fair and square??

He did pull off the "upset" thanks to new PC voting systems there.

What a coincidence he had a relationship with the company that makes the same machines the state used....

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0301/S00166.htm

I trust Hagel as far as I could throw him.

Look for Hagel in '08....yeah, I said it.

[huskerlaw]

58. Yes, I do think he won "fair & square"

I live in the state capital (second largest city) in Nebraska. We don't use voting machines. It's all about paper and pencil here. I'm not entirely certain about Omaha, but I don't think they used machines in 1996 either. I can assure you that the rest of the state didn't use computers either. Therefore, a black-box voting issue in 1996 was impossible.

I worked on Senator Nelson (then Governor Nelson)'s campaign in 1996 and I assure you, Hagel's victory wasn't totally an upset. Many outsiders had pegged an easy Nelson win, but within the campaign we knew it was going to be a problem. In the primaries, Hagel was up against Stenberg, who is a complete rightwing nutjob (see eg: Stenberg v. Carhart, Supreme Court 2000). Therefore, Hagel aligned himself as a moderate Republican. Nelson is (at best) a very conservative Democrat. We had trouble showing the differences between the two candidates...and Nelson had recently done some things that weren't entirely popular.

I'm not defending Hagel, as I said, I'm hesitant to support him in any way. But he has consistantly questioned the Bush administration when nobody else around him was. As for Hagel 2008, yes I can basically guarantee it, although his tactics are somewhat intriguing.

[davidinalameda]

38. shame he's a Republican

he makes so much sense on this

[underpants]

41. GOD I hope he isn't flying home for the holidays

:scared:

[DS1]

42. You go to war with the freedom you have, not with the freedom you may want

:crazy:

[goforit]

43. A senator elected through rigged machines dictates draft????

Hmmmmmm.........

May all his children and relative's children go first!!!

[KeepItReal]

48. You're on the right track...Hagel is just jockeying for position

I don't trust this guy.

[T Bone]

44. Draft Young Republicans

is my answer to Hagel. If it is, as he states, a 'moral societal concern' then all the voters who pushed his moral party's candidates over the top should be the first drafted. How many kids does Hagel have? What are the ages of Hagel's children? We need to start tracking these fuckers' kids for their service to the Republican War Party. They go first. Get Jenna and Babs at the front of the motherfucking line. Jeb's kids right fucking behind them. Then Hagel's kids, and then McCain's nieces and nephews. Where are they ? LINE THEM THE FUCK UP AND GET THEM INDUCTED YOU FILTHY FUCKS !!! Where are Lugar's grandkids ? LINE "EM UP DICK. Put them in service to your fucking war-mongering party, you filthy fucking 'moral' apologists and enablers. LINE THEM THE FUCK UP and get them inducted.

[KansDem]

49. F*ck you, Hagel!

You're not getting my children to cover for your party's f*cked up priorities...

NEVER!!!

[DownNotOut]

50. Ill go to jail before I fight

a thuglicans war. I would hope that you guys feel the same!

You show me some strong democratic leadership and Ill be glad to represent! 'We' go to war only when it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.


DownNotOut

[American Tragedy]

62. We would all make the 1960s look tranquil by comparison

in the unlikely event that there should be a draft. The backlash would be overwhelming.

I'm ready for anything, but surely they are too cowardly to try to reinstitute conscription.

[coreystone]

55. There will be no draft - GW............or, it will be called: .....

The New American Project For Obligatory National Defense and Patriotism Service Act

Boy! I guess that sounds official!

Here are some of the exemptions:

1A - You don't have enough money to go to college; your parents can't financially help you to go to college; you want to go to college and the military will offer you funds to help pay for your education if you should not die in whatever military endeavor created by the orders of the President of the United States; you are not less than 90% legally blind; both of your kidneys are not in total complete failure; your blood pressure is: below 180 (systolic) and below 120 (diastolic); you are a mentally challenged to the extent that you couldn't be trained to pull the trigger of an M-16; ETC., ETC. - ..........

1-HS - OOH! You are in High School, but, you better figure out something more than "screwing" up your grades, that gets cut off really quickly!

2S - You are in college because you have figured out a way to manipulate the system to get the funding (which has been drastically cut); you worked to save the money to be enrolled in a post secondary College program, ETC., ETC. - .....

4F - There's is no way you could physically survive the bus trip to get you to "basic training"!

5A - You have excellent connections; you don't come from impoverished neighborhood according the the National Census Bureau; and, you haven't flunked out of your post secondary education.

[American Tragedy]

56. A draft is the only thing that could bring all of this to a grinding halt.

I hope they try to reintroduce the draft, but I suspect that the administration already anticipates the inevitable reaction.

They are too commited to their agenda and to self-preservation to risk it. It won't happen.

[coreystone]

57. Only if the "twins" go first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...............n/t

[purduejake]

59. How can it not happen?

We're getting our asses kicked in Iraq from what I see. Are we going to pull out? Hell no! Are we going to get international help? ugh.

[American Tragedy]

61. I don't know.

I just can't believe that the government would effectively commit political suicide by reinstituting conscription. Even they must realize what would happen if they tried that.

[Barkley]

63. What are people going to do if the draft comes back?

There will be a reaction but most Americans will go along with it.

I used to think that a draft would wake people up. But after Nov.2, I realize that there 58 million DUMB-ASS people in America.

They're dumb because they didn't learn the lesson of Vietnam -- that needlessly took over 58,000 American lives and millions of people in Vietnam.

This time however, the real motivation is not geopolical (e.g. cold war) but economic - OIL.

We'll be in Iraq a very, very, very long time.

DUMB-ASS Americans!

[coreystone]

64. "DUMB-ASS" !!!

I fully agree!

:-)

My statement is that everyone between 18-35 who voted Republican should volunteer before the draft being REINSTITUTED, but, then, I am sure they other things to do!!!


:crazy:

[NYC]

65. It wasn't the draft alone

that had people protesting Vietnam. It was when the exemptions (for college, etc.) were eliminated that people protested.

Until that point, many people went to college to avoid the draft. Without college exemption, the middle class was drafted.

[bling bling]

60. I'll know the draft is near when

CNN begins referring to their propoganda polls stating "majority of Americans say they support a draft."

[saigon68]

67. It will come too

Mark my words

[fujiyama]

68. Hagel looks like

he wants to run in '08, but it looks like he hasn't kissed BushRove's ring and is unlikely to get their blessing.

I can't see him getting the nomination though, but that's a good thing in one sense. I think he'd make a formidable opponent.

[Theres-a]

69. fair to ask a very few people........to do all the dying

WTF?This guy got kids?