Teen sues over Confederate flag dress

[rainbow4321]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CONFEDERATE_PROM_DRESS?SITE=TXSAE&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) -- A teenager is suing her school district for barring her from the prom last spring because she was wearing a dress styled as a large Confederate battle flag.

The lawsuit filed Monday in U.S. District Court claims the Greenup County district and administrators violated Jacqueline Duty's First Amendment right to free speech and her right to celebrate her heritage at predominantly white Russell High School's prom May 1. She also is suing for defamation, false imprisonment and assault.

She said she worked on the design for the dress for four years, though she acknowledged that some might find the Confederate flag offensive.


Duty, now a college student, said school officials told her before the prom not to wear the dress, but she didn't have another one and decided to see if administrators would change their minds. According to her lawsuit, she was met outside by two police officers and principal Sean Howard. She said the principal intimidated her by striking the vehicle she was in.

[AllegroRondo]

1. Replace "Confederate" with "Nazi" and see how it sounds

just as much hate

[saigon68]

99. COMING AGAIN TO DC SOON

SHE WILL FIT IN WITH THESE LOVELY LADIES !!!!!!



THERE ARE MORE OF THEM EACH YEAR

[sled]

121. Hmmm

Maybe not...no Confederate flags in sight...but if we keep banning everything, that offends anybody else, we may end up all dressed in white sheets...a slippery slope, considering that even Christmas, is now offensive...political correctness is strangling this country.

[bendeminga]

164. I agree

It's perfectly fine to wear african flags and the whole regalia and I certainly don't complain. So don't complain when I choose to wear something that reflects my heritage.
Every society has things that have happened in their past they are not proud of...

[alfredo]

171. Get off it. You and I know damn well what the

term "southern heritage" or "my heritage" means when spoken in the context of the confederate flag. It is a dominance thing, it is to intimidate the blacks, it is to humiliate the blacks.

There was a real possibility that her dress could have sparked a violent reaction at the prom. She knew how people would react to wearing that dress to the prom.

[bendeminga]

172. absolutely not.

Am I embarassed and angered about the way many people display the flag while doing their BS?

you bet I am.

[alfredo]

183. Heritage is just another code word for hatred. It's no different from

using the term " Hollywood elite" or "welfare queen." You may not be saying it outright, but we know that you are talking about Jews in Hollywood, and poor blacks.

Using code words doesn't fool anybody.

[bendeminga]

189. BS--drink some more of the kool-aid why don't you...

What I am saying, outright, is I have a right to preserve my heritage just as much as anyone else.
Welfare queen does NOT automatically equate to black women--not real sure why that was brought up.
Hollywood elite didn't conjur up anything until YOU defined it--but I don't believe that either.
I have no problem with different races; I do, however, have problems with people, of any race, saying I am racist if I display a confederate flag...which, by the way, I don't have. :)

Peace,
just don't lump me in with a group of haters--cuz it don't fit.

On another note....if that's your greenhouse or you manage it--that's awesome!!! One of the reasons I live in the South is for the longer growing season--otherwise, I would like on a ski slope somewhere!

[alfredo]

214. I wasn't saying you were, I was speaking generally about how

the racist use those terms. I see the term "heritage" used as a code word, just as the other terms I mentioned. those terms send up a red flag.

I am a Ky boy, I don't identify with the south as much as I identify with the farming communities of my region.

The greenhouse belongs to a friend.

I love the bluegrass region, but I miss the Ohio river valley. Sometimes I can smell the river, I miss it.

[TankLV]

258. Your the one drinking the bigot racist revisionist kool-aid.

I've never read such bullshit.

[sled]

175. Nope

Better to be intolerant, preach bigotry, & stereotype, & act like every southerner owned slaves, & drank mint julips, on giant plantations, while keeping America divided, red & blue states for enternity, while ignoring that Bill Clinton, a southerner, probably did more for our fellow black Americans, than anybody in decades...

Yep, says they're all a bunch of Racist redneck, white-power bigots, that love their fellow American "Negroes serving us tea", right there on the rube tube, & all over the "internets", so it's damn sure got to be true...but I wonder how many of these stereotypers, would walk the streets of Kingston, Jamaica, & not fear for their lives...I have & I will again, cause I respect all men, something a few, who try to speak for the whole, might try sometime...& I was raised a cornbread dressing eating southern boy, & try to take my fellow Americans, as I find them, not the bullshit, somebody told me about them...the Civil War's been over for 150 yrs., & both sides need to get over it...

& by the way, if it ever happened again, I'd be with the Union, cause it was unConstitutional, to begin with, get over it...a nation divided, will not stand...& fighting bigotry, with bigotry's a recipe for disaster, always has been, always will be...but I'll defend your right to do it, & I'll do my damnedest, to shout you down, because it's simply, not true...two wrongs, never make a right, never have, never will...

[othermeans]

185. Didn't some blacks own slaves in the antebellum South? nt

[GHOSTDANCER]

196. Don't all tax paying Americans own slaves in Indonesia? China ?

& your local Taco Bell? We just hide the slavery in the monitary system. As far as for Africa having a long line of it own slavery system then the answer is....yes they did.

[merh]

226. I am a southerner and I am ashamed of the confederate flag.

Do you realize that it was the south that left the union? It was also the south that began the civil war. Southerners were TRAITORS to the United States of America. They were not patriots, they were traitors. Stop trying to rewrite history in a romantic way in an effort to glorify war and the wrong doings of a generation of southerners.

The confederate flag is offensive. If you want southerner heritage, then celebrate the south before the leaders lost their minds and left the union and were traitors to the USofA.

[Orangepeel]

184. oh, grow up

who's trying to stop you from celebrating Christmas? That is such a bogus issue.

[sled]

208. Is this Ann Coulter, again???

http://rightwingnews.com/


Q: Your last book is called "How to Talk to a Liberal." With which words?

A: A baseball bat is best. But if you absolutely must use words, something like: "Grow up."

[livinginphotographs]

213. This is the poster who later in this thread refers to the Democrat Party.

Think about it. :eyes:

[sled]

215. Good one...yes indeedy...

If you're attempting to imply something, because you have nothing constructive, to add to this discussion, anyone who reads this post, can find Ann Coulter's comment posted, exactly where I came across it, here at DU, on another thread...if anything, you're convincing me, that we did actually lose to ****, & understand how it might have happened, in the first place...think about it...sheesh...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2862145

[livinginphotographs]

221. Not sure where you're going with this,

but I'm so sick of people talking about "why we lost to Bush" when it comes to the basic integrity of the Democratic party. I could really care less if Confederate flag-worship is why(if) we lost to Bush. Hell, the Democrats can abandon gay rights, abortion, etc. and we'd probably win all over the place. But if we do that, what makes them better than the Republicans.

But this is totally off-topic. I was arguing that school had every right to kick this girl out of the dance, and that the Confederate flag is a purely racist symbol that is far-too-often meant to intimidate.

sheesh indeed.

[sled]

223. And...

I support your right to say it...a disagreement of opinions, a good thing...but, since I don't know the girl's reasons, it's hard for me to support, or oppose, what may, or may not be, her philosophy...personally, I support tolerance, of all Americans, but that's me...a right, to be right, & a right, to be wrong...


Merry Christmas, to your & yours...peace be with them...

[merh]

225. That is RW bullshit that the media is using to stir up the masses

and to cover the true news (election fraud). Step away from the kool aid, go directly to the hospital and have your stomach pumped and stick to drinking bottled water.

[sled]

227. And...

You have every right, to that opinion, which are all covered under the First Amendment...to be right, or to be wrong, in anything, an American wishes to say...

Merry Christmas, to you & yours...peace on earth, goodwill toward men...

[merh]

228. Goodwill To All

.

[sled]

229. Agreed

Forgot to be politically correct...my bad...

And Happy New Year...to all...

[SemperEadem]

124. they are neither lovely, nor are they ladies

pointy-headed hags, more like.

[GHOSTDANCER]

192. Those look like American Flags to me. n/t

[wankawanka]

237. no its not

[progdonkey]

244. Confeds and Nazis

just as much hate

...though more US soldiers died fighting the forces of Jefferson Davis (360,000) than the forces of Adolf Hitler (292,000).

[donheld]

2. With this much hate going around

how much longer do you think we have before Civil War II breaks out.

[IwinULose]

243. Never, Americans are too fat, lazy and docile...

Moreover, from a technical standpoint, the "First Civil War" never was.

[DS1]

3. I think they need a change of venue for the case... Say

Harlem

[auburngrad82]

178. I'd like to know what group is paying her legal fees

I'm pretty sure that her family can't afford all the costs involved in such a frivolous lawsuit. I'd be willing to bet that there is a right-wing group behind her footing the bills.

[trumad]

4. Racist redneck

[Cooley Hurd]

150. "Southern Heritage"="Negroes serving us tea..."

"...not sitting across the table from us."

If you Google "southern heritage," many white-power links pop up...:grr:

Screw this little bigot and her ugly-ass dress!:grr:

[GHOSTDANCER]

198. Eat any produce today? You eat any fast food ? Buy any Christmas presents?

Have some yard work done? Have the car or house cleaned?etc...etc...etc.... I'm sure that you had a little extra help from someone of alittle color didn't you? maybe they will say the same about us someday?

[Cooley Hurd]

222. *dook!* *dook!*

[ET Awful]

5. Doesn't sound like she was imprisoned to me, that would require

actually locking her up, which doesn't seem to have happened.

She was advised of the applicable dress-code well in advance and knew she would not be allowed in with it. Was her date wearing a white robe complete with hood?

Striking her car will never be considered as assault in a court of law. Doesn't sound like they touched her at all.

This is one of those frivolous lawsuits that people hire trial attorneys for.

[traco]

68. False Imprisonment actually refers to

forcing you to be somewhere that you don't want to be. Could be a car, a closet, a room, an apartment or house, a hole in the ground etc...

[ET Awful]

74. Which didn't happen here. n/t

[traco]

89. How can you be certain?

It's possible she was trapped inside her vehicle by someone standing just outside the door to keep her from being able to open the door. That would be considered false imprisonment.

[ET Awful]

147. Now you're reaching.

If she's on private property, she's not being "imprisoned," she's being prohibited entry.

Sorry, it will never fly in court.

[Tacos al Carbon]

83. Actually, striking her car is assault and battery

Textbook case, actually.

[Poor Richard Lex]

114. no, it is neither assault nor battery

I just had a case like this a few weeks ago. The defendant hit the glass with a knife. The victim testified that the defendant did not use enough force to break the glass and she did not feel as if the defendant was going to come in contact with her.

battery is the actual offensive physical touching. assault is the apprehension of that touching. In this case neither event took place, and my client was found not guilty.

Hitting a car could be assault in some cases, it just depends on the facts, jack.

[Tacos al Carbon]

205. You're talking about the penal code

I'm discussing a tort action, which is the issue in this case. If you think back to your first year torts class, you'll remember that striking a person's vehicle counted as battery since the vehicle is considered a physical extension of the individual. If you like, I can probably get out my old torts text (Dobbs, Second Edition) and find a cite for you.

Now, whether or not there are any actual damages is another issue altogether and the article doesn't provide enough facts to judge or to predict how a judge or jury would rule.

[ET Awful]

148. Actually no, it isn't.

You might want to get a new textbook.

[Tacos al Carbon]

206. I dunno

My texts served me well when I was in law school and I don't think that basic torts principles have changed all that much in recent years. But I'm sure that you know better.

[Bluebear]

6. "She worked on the dress design for FOUR YEARS"!!!!!

The Redneck answer to Butterick she's not.

[merh]

38. Hell, at least Scarlet had the good sense to use the curtains!

And her excuse was she was broke, not without class!

[Sandpiper]

7. I'm so glad I escaped the South

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

[Neoma]

22. *Jealous*

:argh:

[tx_dem41]

23. Most Southerners would never consider Lexington, KY....as

being in the South.

[alfredo]

52. She filed the case in Lexington because that is where the media is.

She it from Greenup county in the north east part of the state.

[tx_dem41]

158. Got it...

now I know most Southerners wouldn't consider that the South. But, its not meant to be any heavy comment. Just a throw away.

[corbett]

8. Mishandled By Both Sides

The student should have known better but the police had no business striking her car. In a situation like that, they have all the power.

[Sandpiper]

10. The Police didn't

The Principal did.

[Penguin31]

9. Greenup County's Election Statistics, For Those Curious...

Registered Democrats: 17,799
Registered Republicans: 8,991
---
Election Totals:
Bush & Cheney: 8,696
Kerry & Edwards: 7,630.
---
http://elect.ky.gov/results/04gen.htm

[mdhunter]

12. All but 300 Republicans voted, eh?

I call BS.

[OKNancy]

45. Those figures don't say that at all

Some registered Dems voted for Bush. It happens all the time in border and southern states.
In my own state Republicans always win even though there are more registerd Dems. ( 1.2 million Democrats - 783,000 Republicans )

[KittyWampus]

155. TEN THOUSAND Of Them? Sorry, That Stinks. There Probably Aren't

TEN THOUSAND Democrats old enough to BE 'Dixiecrats'... i.e., once Democrats in the 40-50's's and never bothered to change.

This isn't a huge district.

[GHOSTDANCER]

200. I'd give you that rebuttle if it as another election but 2004? Pahlease!!

Everyone came out of the woodwork to vote Kerry in. And Numbers like that don't add up??? Maybe this is how they screw with the electorial votes by splitting these regestered areas up to best serve the party???

[7th_Sephiroth]

13. sounds like the diebold machine

just shaved the one off in the ten thousands colum off the kerry count

check out the numbers for escambia county, florida, it will mak no sense as well

[Dora]

162. Not surprising

Many Republicans, particularly in the South, are registered as Democrats simply so that they can vote in the Democratic primaries.

It's their way of ensuring that the weakest Dem candidate wins the primary so that the Republican candidate can win the general election.

[GHOSTDANCER]

199. Very Interesting? thx!!

[Blue_Tires]

11. i'm sorry, but that has to be the reddest shit i've ever heard of

did she have special rebel-flag printed condoms for the occasion?

[Solly Mack]

14. 4 years? Was it a learn to read as you sew pattern?

That aside...


What an idiot.

[Jesus H. Christ]

15. Did it have a matching hood?

nt

[bobbobbins]

16. eh, while i think wearing the flag is stupid, she should have been allowed

[burn the bush]

17. Come on, we used to wear clothes with American, British, Confederate

and Canadian flag design. They were just cool. Still are.

[KansDem]

47. Sure...

But I have yet to see hate groups fly the British or Canadian flags, therefore, clothes made of those flags tend to be a little less inflammatory.

[colonel odis]

18. those people hate lawyers until they want to sue someone for

looking at them the wrong way.

what a dirtball.

[CottonBear]

20. The lawyer's name is Earl-Ray Neal. n/t

[hollowdweller]

151. Aint that the truth. Frivolous is when somebody else sues.

[gratuitous]

19. She was told it was inappropriate

Didn't secure another dress, wore the one she worked on for four years (!) to see "if the school adminsitrators would change their minds." Now, she's claiming that her "right" to "celebrate her heritage" has been violated.

Well ma'am, my great-great-great granpappy fought for the 31st Pennsylvania brigade on the side of the Union, and it's MY heritage to shoot any traitorous rebel sumbitch under the colors of a foreign flag. Would you stand quietly over there while I celebrate my heritage?

[LiberalFighter]

57. Graduation has nothing to do with celebrating someone's heritage...

last I knew it was a celebration of their graduation.

[sled]

21. Card-carrying ACLU'er here

I disagree with the symbolism, but I defend her right to wear her dress, as will the ACLU.

By denying her right, to wear the dress, she's achieved publicity, she couldn't have possibly had, without all the hoopla. Attempting to deny her, her First Amendment right, has given her a platform, she would have never had in the first place. Let them speak, then use your right, to back them down. Don't give them, free publicity for failed causes.

[Sandpiper]

25. The ACLU has too much integrity

Given the wingnuts' dislike of the ACLU and "trial lawyers," her representation ought to be in propria persona. ;)

[purduejake]

33. I agree with you...

some would think a gay couple was offensive. Protect the right to free speech. She wasn't harming anybody.

Edit: spelling

[NashVegas]

50. What Kind of Platform Would She Have Had

if she'd worn the dress as planned and got egged?

The fact school officials were aware of her plans before the fact speaks yards (no pun intended).

[LiberalFighter]

58. Or shot by someone dressed in a Union uniform

[DoNotRefill]

79. I can see it now....

mass slaughter in the prom carried out by girls wearing dresses based upon the flags of the times...."Everybody run! The Homecoming Queen's got a gun!"

:evilgrin:

[Shipwack]

160. Ballroom Blitz

And the man at the back said
Everyone attack and it turned into a ballroom blitz
And the girl in the corner said
Boy, I wanna warn ya, it'll turn into a ballroom blitz
Ballroom blitz, ballroom blitz, ballroom blitz
Ballroom blitz


Sorry... this thread reminded me of the song and I couldn't get it out of my head...

[prayin4rain]

176. Now I can't get it out of my head.... thanks a lot :) n/t

[tsuki]

93. I agree with you. I must defend, tho I do not agree, her right to free

speech. Even tho I realize that there are those that would attempt restrict my rights.

[K8-EEE]

117. I Agree! I Defend Her Right To Look Stupid And Be An Asshole.

She's determined to look stupid & be an asshole anyway so why not?

[fortyfeetunder]

129. She has rights but not an ounce of common sense.

That child should have known better the presence of a Confederate flag in 21st century society is not a polite thing to do. But she was hoping insaner minds would prevail and let her wear the dress. Where were the parents in guiding her to wear something sensible?

Sure she had the rights to wear the dress. But common sense would have also said wearing such a tacky and faux political statement does not fit in today's society. Or is she one of those types who Jeff Foxworthy talks about? (You might be a......when...)

[sled]

133. There you go

I wondered the same myself...what about the parents? We hold everybody else responsible, while threatening our own freedoms, & nobody says a word about the parents. Everybody gets punished, for the stupidity of a few. If anything, they're going to get rewarded, with "damages", at the taxpayers' expense. Let her wear her dress, & maybe get laughed at, etc. Better that, than one night, one dumb dress, & everybody gets to ante up $50,000+, & she gets national publicity. Took her 4 yrs? They may have been planning the suit, from the git-go...even a bigger political statement, than the dress alone. Who would have known? Now the whole world knows, & she makes a bank.

The "common sense" knife might cut both ways...

[tblue37]

137. Actually,

if the school administration felt the dress was inflammatory, they could justify banning it to prevent violence. It was a mostly white school, but wearing an outfit like that could easily lead to altercations and even violence, and she could have made herself a target for a serious beating once she left the prom, or even on another day.

Kids go to a prom to dance and have fun. Her pathetic little look-at-me attention-getting device could easily have ruined the prom for everyone. Pathetic little twit.

She should just go back to shouting "Fire!" in crowded theaters.

[Undercover Owl]

24. what a brat!

I thought the prom was supposed to be a social event, not a political statement. Everybody knows some things are just inappropriate at school, and this is one of them.

Do you think they would have allowed her to wear a dress with a marijuana leaf design? I don't think so.

[tx_dem41]

32. Some would say that segregated country clubs are "social events".

Your blanket statement can be twisted by others to achieve quite unsavory ends.

[Daybreaker]

63. Now that is an excellent idea.

Pot-leaf tux! I'm going to start working on mine now! :)

[StuckinKS]

132. Hee Hee

Hope you have four years to get it ready.

[tsuki]

95. In America, at least these days, everything, everywhere is a political

statement.

[Raiden]

26. A senior prom isn't the place to make a political statement

I'm just sad that this stupid girl is from my homestate. I saw her on the news a few days ago with that hideous dress... I can't believe that it took four years to make that crappy POS dress... but anyway. One of her relatives was on the news saying how she should have been allowed to wear it, that its a sign of Southern heritage and "standing up for what's right." When she said that, my jaw dropped to the floor.

The Nazi flag and the Confederate flag both have similiar conotations to me. It's a sign of racism and hate, just like the Nazi flag. People in Kentucky fly the Confederate flag as if we were part of the Confederacy... DUMB FUCKERS need a history lesson!

[tsuki]

96. But as an American with a Constitution, I must protect speech that

I abhor. If I don't, then my speech will be taken away.

[comradebillyboy]

27. its the girl's right to do this

the first amendment exists to protect unpopula and offensive speech. we do not have the right to censor expression just because we disagree

[Jesus H. Christ]

44. She can wear whatever she wants.

It's the principal's right and obligation to kick her ass out of the prom.

[DoNotRefill]

70. Ummm.....

that sounds like content-driven censorship, and is inappropriate.

[Jesus H. Christ]

78. Baloney.

The only thing inappropriate was the girl. She was infringing on other kid's rights to attend in a safe environment. There's rules in the school barring discrimination against race, gender, orientation, etc. I can't go into work wearing a nazi uniform or go completely naked because it infringes on other people. Same here.

[DoNotRefill]

80. Well, I see you're a First Amendment scholar....

>snicker<

You might try to reread Title 7 again....

[Jesus H. Christ]

81. Can I go up to my office mate...

and tell her she has a nice ass?

Legally? Sure. Can my boss legally fire me? You bet.

[DoNotRefill]

82. apples and oranges....

if you know it's apples and oranges, you're being disingenuous. If you don't, it's not worth arguing with you over.

[Jesus H. Christ]

86. Alright, let's say I go up to my office mate...

and said "nigger go home."

There that's much more similar to the actual case.

Or is it an audio visual thing. OK, let's say I went up to my female office mate and showed her the fold-out from the latest Hustler. That's still constitutionally protected, right?

"if you know it's apples and oranges, you're being disingenuous. If you don't, it's not worth arguing with you over."

Hmm, what's disingenious is knowing you just lost the argument and then going and saying something like, "that's it! I'm done talking to you!."

[DoNotRefill]

88. So, in your "hypothetical"...

do you work for the State? Because if not, then it's not a State actor doing anything, which is the case here. Are you on the clock? Because if not, what business is it of your employers what you do? Remember, in this case, it's an "off the clock" function. And if you are on the clock, your employer has a right to tell you what to be doing during that time, no?

You need to ask yourself what kind of venue it is, and what other forms of speech are allowed. If a person made a dress based upon the US flag and it was allowed, then a dress based upon the Confederate or Nazi or even the Communist flag must be allowed too. To not allow one message while allowing the other message is censorship, and is inappropriate.

I suggest you educate yourself at least a LITTLE bit about the pertinent issues if you expect people to converse with you.

[Jesus H. Christ]

90. If I work for the state I can sexually harrass my office mates?!

Is that what you're saying?

"And if you are on the clock, your employer has a right to tell you what to be doing during that time, no?"

Oh, so I can sexually harrass my officemates at the annual office X-mas party? Neat! I didn't know!

[DoNotRefill]

91. Like I said...

read Title 7.

[tsuki]

97. So we succumb to Patriot Act II when it fits our agenda?

[StuckinKS]

134. Yeah!

Isn't this akin to yelling, "Fire" in a crowded theatre?

[auburngrad82]

159. School districts have been enforcing dress codes for years

When I was in school in the 70s (in the south) we had a dress code that was strictly enforced. We were not allowed to wear clothing with beer logos or drug/sex references on them. You could be sent home for wearing them. Schools have the right to institute dress codes. Students are bound by the dress codes. I didn't like the dress codes when I was in school but as students we didn't have a say in the dress code.

The dress was obviously intended to get attention and to piss people off. She got what she wanted. She's getting plenty of attention and the wingers will rally 'round the flag, so to speak. Let her take it to court. It'll get thrown out. Then the school should counter-sue to recoup costs associated with the frivolous lawsuit.

[livinginphotographs]

161. I couldn't have said it better myself.

She was told beforehand not to wear it, and did it anyway.

The Confederate flag is not just offensive, it's meant to intimidate. Therefore, just like wearing gang colors or wearing a swastika, she should not have been allowed to wear it.

[DoNotRefill]

166. So, the school dress code applied to football games?

eom

[auburngrad82]

168. What do football games have to do with it?

I can't remember because I didn't attend more than a couple football games. But she went to the prom a school funtion) in a dress that the school principal said beforehand was unacceptable. Imagine if a student showed up in a see-through dress. Should she be sent home because the see through dress was inappropriate for a school function?

She was using the confederate flag as a statement and having grown up in the south (and still living in the south) when a white person uses the confederate flag to make a statement, there are racist intentions behind the statement.

The reason that Georgia had the confederate flag as part of the state flag (until a few years ago) was to protest integration. It had nothing to do with heritage. It was a statement against what they saw as an attack on the way of life of southerners. They didn't want blacks to go to the same schools as whites, they didn't want blacks eating in the same restaurants as whites, and on and on.

Remember a few weeks ago when a kid got sent home for wearing an anti-Bush shirt to school? It was posted in Late Breaking News. If that kid can't make a statement by wearing an anti-Bush shirt then this girl shouldn't have been able to wear the confederate flag. Fair is fair.

She can make a statement about white power and hatred on her own time but not on the school's time.

[DoNotRefill]

169. It has to do with a football game....

because a prom is NOT school, just as a football game is not school.

Personally, I don't think the kid sent home for wearing the anti-bush t-shirt should have been sent home. I think the law on that is morally wrong. But I also don't think that the law which is wrong can be stretched to cover a prom.

[auburngrad82]

173. I respectfully disagree. The school pays for the prom and for football

therefore they are school functions. If the school sets guidelines for what is and what is not acceptable then the rules should be enforced.

For argument's sake, if a kid came to school with a t-shirt that said "Kill all Fags" or "Hitler was a Liberal" or "Nuke the Jews" should that kid have the right to stay in class or should the school staff be able to remove that kid from class? They are using their right to freedom of speech. Where do you draw the line in schools?

I'm all for freedom of speech. My truck is loaded with anti-conservative bumper stickers and I've been known to wear some pretty obnoxious t-shirts. But the school staff is responsible for the safety and well-being of hundreds of kids and teachers. Allowing a kid to spread hate through the guise of freedom of speech is dangerous. Who would be responsible if a fellow student took offence and shot this girl in the parking lot after school (we've seen enough school shootings to know it could happen)? The school would end up with a dead kid and a very large legal bill all because the girl was allowed to wear her dress.

There are times and places to make political statements, hateful or otherwise, but school functions are not the place.

[DoNotRefill]

179. Do you REALLY not see the disconnect here???

"I'm all for freedom of speech....Allowing a kid to spread hate through the guise of freedom of speech is dangerous."

The First Amendment wasn't made to protect popular speech, it was made to protect UNPOPULAR speech, and that INCLUDES HATE SPEECH. Why else do you think the ACLU filed suit on behalf of the American Nazi Party in Skokie??? Because they liked their "spiffy" uniforms??? I think fucking NOT.

What people don't seem to remember is that you CAN NOT CENSOR BECAUSE OF CONTENT. If the school would have allowed the girl to wear a dress based upon the US flag, they MUST allow her to wear a flag based upon the Confederate flag. And all of this is moot, because apparently the school system had no problem with people wearing Confederate flag items to REGULAR SCHOOL IN THE DAYTIME, so they can't even claim that a confederate flag was in violation of the school's dress code.

[onenote]

28. Does she even know what her "heritage" is?

According to census records, the Duty family has been in Greenup since before the Civil War. What's interesting is that Greenup was considered a UNION stronghold during the Civil War. Indeed, Kentucky never formally joined the confederacy (although a separate secessionist government was formed). Essentially, the Western part of the state sympathized with the confederacy, but the eastern part of the state --- including Greenup -- were squarely in the Northern camp....If Ms. Duty had tried to wave a Confederate Flag in Greenup during the war, she probably would've had her freakin' head blown off...

I have to wonder if Miss Jacqueline has the foggiest notion of what her "heritage" is....

Of course...her high school has 668 students, and if you assume that African-Americans are present in the school in the same proportions as they are in the Greenup population (.6%), she has fewer than 6 African American schoolmates.

onenote

[fortyfeetunder]

157. Ding! We have an answer!!!

Of course not, this young'un has no clue what her heritage is....

[MADem]

210. Maybe she needs a geneologist, not a lawyer

What would be very poetic is if she discovered a few dusky branches on her family tree. Wonder how she'd feel about that dress then?

Maybe her mama is one of those Confederate Daughters...

[jarab]

29. I would defend her right to wear it for

whatever she was trying to express. eom.
...O...

[purduejake]

34. I would too...

If the students are offended, they shouldn't talk to her. She obviously wants attention.

[Must_B_Free]

136. Me too - let her wear the f'in dress

let her take responsibility for her statement.

[davidinalameda]

30. I used to live close to Greenup

I can see this happening there

[tx_dem41]

31. The First Amendment is more important than me not being offended...

that said, I would want to know more about caselaw in this area, especially as it pertains to the school-student relationship.

[robcon]

35. I think it's obvious her rights are being abrogated.

She has a right to make a statement with her clothes, no matter how unpopular or offensive it is to others. People have not been given a right not to be offended, as far as I know,

[Sterling]

61. So can kids wear Nazi armbands to school?

Just asking.

[strobetoad]

64. Sure, they can wear them to school...

...they just have to be prepared for what doing so will fetch them.

[DoNotRefill]

72. This wasn't school....

this was an after-school function.

If one of the guys had wanted to come "a la Cartman" dressed like Hitler, that's his right.

I'm thinking that even the normal "disruptive behavior" rules wouldn't apply in this situation, since it wasn't going on during school hours.

Let me ask y'all this: If it had been a Communist symbol, would those of y'all that are attacking her over the Confederate flag be attacking her or defending her? If your position switched based upon the symbol, why?

[Tomee450]

125. It' s the school's responsibility to protect the students.

That flag offends many people. What if someone became so incensed that he assaulted the student. The school would then be criticized for permitting her to wear the garment. Just because one has a certain right does not always mean it's appropriate to exercise it. Just imagine the furor had a black person come to the prom wearing a gown with Black Power written all over it, or wearing one with a large raised black fist. He would have had a right to do so but his actions have been most inappropriate. He probably would have been beaten up and thrown out.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. She has every right in the world to wear that dress

I think it is disgusting and racist, but even more I defend her right to wear it. Laws can not ever be used to define good taste. The law says we all have the right to free speech and this is free speech.

I love how every one is racing for a lawyer, though. That's the really ironic part. I hope the ACLU gets involved. The issue is clear and it may make an impression on one or two on the other side.

Who knows ......

:shrug:

[Politicub]

37. That dress was a Weapon of Mass Stupidity

Let the freak wear her dress. She'll look like a complete fool in the prom pictures.

[LiberalEsto]

39. My daughter's best friend wore a chain-mail dress to the prom

She and her boyfriend, who does ironwork, made it in about 6 months. Unfortunately it was too heavy to make a long dress, so they left it above knee length.

As for the flag, when my kids were in high school in Maryland, the rule was that anything likely to be disruptive was banned. I'd say that flag dress would have been distruptive, so school officials had a right to ban it from the prom. That doesn't mean she couldn't go out and wear it somewhere else, like the local Miss KKK pageant.

[KenCarson]

43. frivolous attention ploy

pathetic.

having said that, she has the right to be wear whatever she wants in APPROPRIATE venues.

[DoNotRefill]

73. The problem with that....

is that it didn't happen during school. The disruptive rule is there to prevent class time from being disrupted...since there were no classes going on, it wouldn't apply.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. That rule about not disrupting

applies to all school activities, not just during the school day.

[DoNotRefill]

167. Cite, please.

thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. No need to cite

I am a teacher. This is a common policy.

You could look it up in this particular school district's code of conduct, which may be posted on line. But school rules cover ALL school activities. That has been a standard practice for as long as I can remember. My dad was a high school coach and a principal. I can remember lots of kids getting busted for disrupting at games, at dances, on the bus, etc. And it still happens today.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. Here is the entry from my school district's code of conduct.

"The provisions of the Code of Student Conduct apply in all situations in which students are involved, including:
*activities on school property;
*travel on school buses or in any vehicle used to transport students
*OFF-SITE SCHOOL SPONSORED ACTIVITIES
*while walking to and from school, waiting for school-provided transportation or waiting or riding on public transportation to and from school
*acts of behavior which occurs off school property and poses a threat to the safety of students and faculty or disrupts the learning environment"

[slackmaster]

87. It saddens me greatly to think a person could do such a thing

Post something about a clever, creative young woman in a chain mail dress AND NOT INCLUDING ANY PICTURES!

:argh:

[AP]

40. There's a lot of SCt jurisprudence saying schools can restrict...

1st A rights in order to provide an environment conducive to learning and not subject to disruption. They can tell you how to dress, how to cut your hair, and a lot of other shit and what not to say. There's very little political speech that is allowed free reign inside of schools that would be covered by the 1st A outside of school. (All you have to do is prove that it's disruptive to the learnign environment). This dress falls squarely within existing case law.

The only argument I think the plaintiff could possibly make is that there is no further educational mission at or after the prom and so she wasn't disrupting a learning environment. But you'd have to argue that every single student at the prom was a senior and were all definitely graduating (if not, the gov't will argue that it owes a duty to returning students attending that event to ensure that the school doesn't appear to endorse racist sentiments).

But even if they were all seniors, I think the court would still not rule in the plaintiff's favor. The court would say that it was damaging even to students of the school not attending the prom who merely heard that the school let people wear confederate flag dresses to the prom.

If there were a rule that proms were no longer subject to existing rules for limiting the 1st A rights of students, a lot of schools would probably no longer have proms. The risk is that they'd become free-for-all forums for expressing all your political opinions, no matter how extreme they were, and schools would just say, 'fuck-it' -- let them do that in a public square. Prom is cancelled.

[purduejake]

48. God forbid allowing a free speech free-for-all at a school of all places.

edit: typo

[AP]

55. There's so much sensible case law on this issue that it's

really hard to criticize it from a liberal perspective.

Kids go to school to learn. If it were a First A. free-for-all, it would be very easy for the educational process to get pushed to the side. There are places at the margin where you can argue that some restrictions are completely unreasonable and are not related to any legitimate attempt to prevent disruption. But I don't think this case is at the margins...

When applying these varying legal standards, many courts have upheld school dress policies, rejecting constitutional challenges by students. For example, the 5th Circuit has upheld school-uniform policies in Louisiana (in Canady) and Texas. Many students have lost when they challenged their suspension for wearing Confederate flag clothing. The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals recently upheld a school district’s flat ban on the Confederate flag.

However, sometimes students do prevail in dress-code disputes. Because the Tinker decision emphasized that the students wearing the black armbands were engaged in political speech — the type of speech the First Amendment was most designed to protect — students wearing clothes containing political slogans and other messages can argue that a reviewing court should apply the Tinker standard to protect their right to wear political-slogan clothing.

For example, Michigan high school student Bretton Barber successfully obtained a preliminary injunction in a federal district court that prevented school officials from banning his T-shirt showing a photograph of President George W. Bush with the words “International Terrorist.” U.S. District Judge Patrick J. Duggan ruled in October 2003 in favor of the student because, he said, school officials had silenced Barber’s expression more out of a dislike of its message than fear that it might disrupt school.

In other words, Duggan applied the Tinker standard and determined that the school officials failed to meet that test. In fact, the judge compared Barber’s shirt opposing President Bush’s policies in Iraq to the students from the Tinker case who opposed the Vietnam War.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/studentexpression/topic.aspx?topic=clothing_dress_codes_uniforms

[DoNotRefill]

76. The problem is....

what educational purpose is served by a voluntary prom???

[AP]

94. ...or a pep rally, or sports, or about 40% of the shit done in HS?

What's the educational value of lunch? And lunch period isn't a First-A free-for-all.

Where do you draw the line?

I suspect that courts will say that if it's somethign that schools have traditionally done, is regularly scheduled, and is within the control of the school, it is connected the educational mission of the school.

You see, it's not just that it's a prom that matters. It's an event organized by the school, and so the school is responsible for behaviour that occurs at the prom, and by not restricting disruptive behaviour at the prom they run the risk of kids going back to class and thinking that if it was OK at the prom, then it's OK in class.

Don't you think that if you were a black student and you saw at your prom the confederate flag that when you went back to class, you'd think your school was a little fucked up? I would find that disruptive.

I'm sure HS administrations are constantly rejecting proposed prom themes, and that certainly doesn't give rise to constitutional crises. Why would restricting a dress?

[DoNotRefill]

107. I find it offensive and fucked up and I wasn't even there...

but disruptive of school itself? If that's the standard, then wouldn't virtually everything that happens outside of school be potentially disruptive?

Where I went to High School, the prom was paid for and organized by the SGA. We held fundraisers, and rented the venue, paid for refreshments, et cetera. The school provided chaperones and space for SGA-funded advertizing at the school, and that's IT.

Do you think that the principal would have objected to a dress patterned after the US flag? If not, then this comes down smack dab in the middle of content-regulated speech. I read at one of the links floating around that kids routinely wore confederate flag marked clothing to school itself, and the administration said nothing about it. If this is so, I have a VERY hard time seeing how the school will prevail in court.

[AP]

127. I think I addressed this in the last post.

The prom isn't something that happens outside of school. The school pays for it, organizes it, and runs it.

If this situation hadppened at your school -- since the school doesn't run it -- the plaintiff would have sued the SGA and not the school, and if the SGA is a private organization, she wouldn't have any constitutional claims.

[Undercover Owl]

69. it's true

AP knows what's going on in school policies...
Schools absolutely do not allow certain things.

[DoNotRefill]

75. Huh???

"The court would say that it was damaging even to students of the school not attending the prom who merely heard that the school let people wear confederate flag dresses to the prom."

That's quite a stretch there. I don't see it happening, any more than I could see the schools prohibiting that dress at a non-school function, because the knowledge that she wore it would harm students that she attended classes with.

Certain school functions HAVE effectively become public forums for political speech. For example: Mortarboard signs at graduation. School function, on school property, but to ban certain mortarboard signs because of content wouldn't fly unless ALL mortarboard signs were banned.

[tblue37]

138. Many people at proms are not seniors.

A couple must include a senior, but the senior can certainly bring a date who is not a senior. Say a senior boy is dating a junior or a sophomore--then he can bring his girlfriend, even though she isn't a senior herself.

[AP]

139. And even if it were all seniors, juniors would hear that so-and-so wore a

confederate flag dress and the principle let her, and they'd get the impression that racist symbolism is tolerated at the school, and that would undermine the learning process at school.

BTW...

I think that if you look at the cases in the links above, the courts seem not to think that one administrator can't make a school conform to his or her political opinions when the oposing opinion is legitimate and the mode of expression is inocuous. But the school can restrict speach that is considered very objectionble by a much broader segment of society.

Afterall, there is a very intense debate in the south about the flag, and some states are trying to ban it, and the NAACP is boycotting SC over it, and people line up on the heritage vs racism axis. An anti-bush t-shirt is not the same thing. America is evenly split on whether Bush is objectionable, and everybody agrees that it's perfectly fine to express their opinions on the subject matter in public -- and, in fact, we encourage civil discourse over these issues and we encourage people to have opinions. The heritage vs racism axis is very disruptive. A Democrat vs Republican axis is the most tollerated and accepted axis for debate in America.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. Thanks AP

you explained it a lot better than I did.

As a teacher I can add that schools are responsible for kids form the moment they leave home in the morning until they arrive back home after school. So if a kid gets hit by a car on the walk to school, the school district can be held responsible and liable for damages. And yes, it has happened. Lots of times.

[HuffleClaw]

41. i'd like more details

i think the real question here is this. did the school in question have a preexisting policy regarding the confederate flag? if so, she was clearly in the wrong. if not, she was within her rights to wear it.

[genieroze]

42. Sounds to me that she knew they wouldn't allow her to wear it

so she wore it so she could $ue. Just for the record I say let her wear it, she would look like a moron. Why do I have the feeling her parents are involved in this?

[genieroze]

46. I changed my mind, I saw a pic of it, it wasn't that bad

It really didn't look all that much like a confederate flag to me. I thought her clown makeup looked worse than the dress.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42046

[onenote]

51. wow, scary pic!

but she's still going on about her "southern heritage" -- see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1092786&mesg_id=1092986&page=

onenote

[strobetoad]

66. Yes, it's a stylized version of the flag.

Really, it's not that far removed from something you might see on a Miss America contestant from Dixie.

[goodboy]

49. inbred redneck racist bitch...probably has 2 teeth,....

[RetroLounge]

53. Damn homely girl. Stupid too.

RL

[Undercover Owl]

71. so that's her?

Red is not her color.
The dress is surprisingly pretty, though.

[old blue]

54. I'm all for morons wearing huge signs

identifying themselves as such.

[merwin]

56. She does have a case on the "Wrongful Imprisonment" part

since they didn't allow her to leave her car. I don't think that's quite legal.

[w4rma]

59. She's right. I think that she will and I hope she wins her lawsuit. (nt)

[Chovexani]

60. That is so unbelievably tacky.

Someone should sue her for crimes against fashion if nothing else. Too bad there's no picture with the article, I'm sure the ladies on Fugging it Up would have a field day with it.

Free speech issues? I got nothin'. It's a sticky issue. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be allowed to wear an SS uniform to the prom, and as far as I'm concerned the Confederate flag is right there in the gutter with it. But at the same time, I remember the hysteria that broke out after the Columbine shootings and goth kids were suspended left and right for looking "strange" (I was one of them). Not sure what the school policy is toward that kind of thing, but I think a happy medium needs to be reached between freedom of expression and causing undue harm to other students. Wearing an Victorian gown is one thing; wearing a big Fuck You to an entire group of students is something entirely different.

[DoNotRefill]

109. tackiness....

isn't criminal. If it was, my neighbor would be in jail over his Christmas decorations.

[deminflorida]

62. In Naples, Italy the Confederate Flag is the sort of the unofficial

symbol of the soccer team. I used to live there, and when you visit San Paulo Stadium during a soccer game there are these thousands of Confederate Flags waving in the stands.

Naples (Napoli) is in southern Italy, so I believe they use it as their symbol of the south. Especially when they are playing Milano.

I remember discussing the flag with an Italian once and told him that in the United States you don't see it much any more because it's considered a symbol of the times when America practiced slavery. He responded to like this:

"So?, without slaves Rome would have never been built". "The Coliseum is a symbol of slavery, what do want us to do? Tear it down? If we did that what would you Americans have to take pictures of when you visit here?".

He did went on into a discussion of how we Americans are sometimes too serious about our very short history as a nation.

Maybe he was right, perhaps it would be better to face your past than hide from it. They still have statues of Mussolini in parts of Italy as well. I wasn't their first dictator in 2000 years, probably won't be their last.

Look at history head on and be fair warned, it often repeats itself. Ignoring issues won't stop that from happening.

http://www.clubnapoli.it

[NorthernSpy]

101. it's mighty easy to take that attitude...

... when your ox wasn't the one that was gored.

Perhaps this brat should have shown up in a dress with a big picture of Osama bin Laden on it. If she had done that, then the phrase "fighting words" would figure more heavily in the resulting debate, and no one would be accused of taking such a provocation "too seriously".

Are the people in Naples aware that their ethnic brethren in the United States have their own quite vigilant anti-defamation organization?


:eyes:

[deminflorida]

140. The people in Naples have known for along time that their quite

vigilant anti-defamation organization in America is the Mafia. Another colorful part of Italian history and culture. Unlike us they don't pretend that it never, or still exists.

;-)

[incapsulated]

234. Excuse me, but..

There is a big fucking difference between history that is thousands of years old and the legacy of slavery and racism in the US.

And even more difference in celebrating that racism through it's symbols.

I also doubt that those who were victims of Mussolini's reign find his statues amusing.

I'm not some pc watchdog, but to compare ancient Roman slavery, the mafia and some very ignorant fools in Italy with their soccer team to the history of the US and the confederacy is absurd and insulting.


Edit: I guess we should just get over the swastika because, after all, it's an ancient symbol that predates the Third Reich. Let's decorate our football stadiums with them.

[JHB]

191. Are they actual Confederate Battle flags...

...or just a similar St. Andrew's Cross design?

[Daybreaker]

65. Not a big deal.

Certainly not worth taking anyone's freedom of speech away over.

I don't know why some people like the confederate flag, but they do. When I see it, I think of slavery. But you could actually say something similar about the American flag. When you look at it, do you think of the genocide of the Native Americans?

I don't like the confederate flag, and I'd probably make fun of the girl for wearing it, but she still has the right to wear it. And yes, I think people should even have the right to wear Nazi flags ... though I don't think I'll going to bat for them over it. They can do that one without me.

[Javaman]

67. What's more disturbing? She wanting to wear the dress or...

that someone actually made one? Like the chicken or the egg, which came first?

God, stories like this just confirm we are still Neanderthals looking out at the storm from within our caves.

[DoNotRefill]

77. Ummm...she made the dress herself....

eom

[Javaman]

85. Wow! The chicken IS the egg.

That is very disturbing.

[NorthernSpy]

84. Is wearing gang insignia to the prom acceptable as "free speech"?

Or is it simply what it looks like to a reasonable person: a blatant attempt to provoke hostilities, and consequently a threat to good order and the safety of those attending the event? And is this girl a free-speech martyr, or just another whiny-ass brat whose own deliberately shitty behavior got her banned from the prom, boo-friggin-hoo?

If we would forbid attendance at the dance to anyone who arrived decorated with the insignia of the Bloods, or the Hell's Angels, or the Young Lords, then why should we let little miss Swastika, or little miss Stars-n-Bars set foot in the venue? It's kinda silly, this knee-jerk attempt to cobble together a "free speech" issue while ignoring completely the far more important public safety issue that this case presents.


(fixed typo)

[sled]

98. Far more important public safety?

A matter of opinion...I defer to these guys...one of whom founded the Democrat Party...


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Benjamin Franklin
Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."

Thomas Jefferson
Letter, December 23, 1791, to Archibald Stuart.

[NorthernSpy]

104. why are you calling us the "Democrat Party"?

And as for the quotes, so what? What really sticks in my mind about the "Founding Fathers" is that they came up with the Alien and Sedition Acts the minute they felt threatened by the speech and associations of others.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, it's only too easy to shrug off advocacy that puts someone else in harm's way. If you look at the history of lynching, you can see that blacks paid a horrific price for the free speech of the whites who defamed them without restraint. Same for Jews in Europe. For that reason, I do not automatically assume that the right to defame and provoke must necessarily and without exception trump the public's interest in safety, peace, and order -- and certainly not when the issue at hand is some brat's behavior at a school dance, for crying out loud...

[JohnLocke]

108. Jefferson and Franklin didn't promote the Alien and Sedition Acts.

That was Adams and the Federalists. Not Jefferson (and the Antifederalists, who were the forerunners of the old Republican Party and the modern Democratic Party).

[NorthernSpy]

111. so what?

I didn't say that they had. I said that the "Founding Fathers" were perfectly capable of restricting liberties that they found inconvenient or injurious to their own interests.

Thomas Jefferson is about the last person I'd accept as a defender of freedom. He defended the freedom of his own kind, and he defended the restriction of the liberties of others.

[Heimdallr]

238. Got Brain?

Thomas Jefferson is about the last person I'd accept as a defender of freedom. He defended the freedom of his own kind, and he defended the restriction of the liberties of others.

Yeah, I didn't think you did.

[NorthernSpy]

240. Got grammar, my dear newcomer?

Got Brain?
(...)
Yeah, I didn't think you did.

You should not have written "did". You should have written "had". Because your second sentence refers to the first, the verb you choose should be the proper auxiliary verb for got. Compare:

Yeah, I didn't think you did (got brain).

with

Yeah, I didn't think you had (got brain).

While the first sentence is clearly wrong, the second merely sounds funny, because the allusion to the "Got Milk" slogan is distorted somewhat by inclusion in another clause. "Had got" is correct English, though an American would usually prefer to say either "had gotten brain", or simply "had brain", depending on what exactly he meant to convey. Some insist that had got is informal, and had alone is preferable, but not everyone agrees.

Speakers of British English consider got the standard participle for get, and gotten an archaism; in the United States, both got and gotten are standard.

Isn't that interesting?

My brain and your grammar aside (and neither was what anyone here was originally discussing), my comment about Thomas Jefferson is only the literal truth. You do remember his nasty habit of holding people prisoner and forcing them to do yard work for him, don't you? Why my mentioning this drove you to a fit of condescension, I haven't any idea.

How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of Negroes?

-- Samuel Johnson

[sled]

112. Exactly

But the party composed of Democrats, is actually the Democratic Party, so I stand corrected, the northernspy is actually half right...maybe a Democrat who prefers Republican ideology...

[Tomee450]

128. I guess I don't understand.

Do you really think it is right to allow someone to engage in an act that may jeopardize the safety of others? In some areas, wearing that flag into a school might have caused violence.

[tsuki]

102. Well, we could forbid anyone to enter based on a "Protect Civil

Liberties" dress.

[NorthernSpy]

106. is a "protect civil liberties" dress likely to start a brawl?

We can impose a certain standard of civility upon those who attend school functions, and we can banish from the premises those who deliberately flout that standard. I doubt that a dress that bore the phrase "protect civil liberties" would start many fights, though it might make for some strange looking evening wear.


(fixed typo)

[DoNotRefill]

110. Ummmm...given today's environment....

I'd say yeah, it's likely to start a brawl.

How many here got flipped off for having a Kerry bumpersticker????

[NorthernSpy]

115. even given today's environment...

... I'd doubt that the phrase "defend civil liberties" is going to stick in anyone's craw. Everyone is for defending civil liberties, at least at the rhetorical level.

[DoNotRefill]

119. As Tsuki points out....

a shirt saying "Defend Civil Liberties" caused the wearer to not be admitted to a Bush campaign rally....

[tsuki]

116. NorthernSpy, it is only offensive at Bush rallies.

[mitchum]

92. Tacky, stupid, offensive...that girl covered so many bases!

[pinniped]

100. Check this out: KKK Costume Wins First Prize -- And A Suspension

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/11/04/kkkcostume.DTL

KKK Costume Wins First Prize -- And A Suspension

Associated Press

Thursday, November 4, 2004

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. -- A high school student's costume garnered a top prize -- and a five-day suspension -- at the school's Halloween masquerade party.

The Ku Klux Klansman getup took the prize for the scariest costume at the City High School dance attended by the principal, assistant principal and other staff members.

Superintendent Bert Bleke said he agreed with the school's decision to suspend the student but wanted to know why adults at the party failed to stop the senior, who was wearing a white-hooded outfit, from entering, much less winning a prize.

<--snip--
Contacted by the newspaper, the student declined to discuss his Halloween outfit. He said school leaders advised him to keep mum, and that he didn't want to cause any more trouble for himself.
-->

-----------

[DoNotRefill]

113. Hmmmmm.....

I wonder what the race of the wearer was. Klan outfits can be used satirically to poke fun at the Klan....See Blazing Saddles and the Chapelle Show.

/notes that cocaine's a HELL of a drug!!!

[pinniped]

120. It didn't say if he had to forfeit the prize either.

.

[vs the introvore]

130. halloween costume suspension?!??!?

even though there's still a million dudes buying their costume and smarming at the hip digs. fucking why? only the barest few more than average joes and josephines do verily- on halloween- rip into the political theatre with a dandy, coy and/or subtle message. yet we're gonna eventually tie it all up with red tape, all knotted, even. all muzzled and muffed. miffed, even-yes again- at not being free. not being understood. can't even spend a few rare hours wiggling wiff my posturers, whhhhhhhooooooooooo! en. la. casa. can't even let the kids wear dresses made from the shroud of turin to their own debutante ball without the media pornographs going off and everything being censored and lest speculated yet then rerased. sic. so very sick.

[justjones]

103. She has every right to wear the dress....

although I acknowledge the racist sentiment behind wearing it.

They should have let her wear it, annoited her prom queen, and then let some "Carrie" movie fans take over from there. Ya know what I'm sayin'?

[sled]

126. Yup

Who knows, they may have hustled her out of there, before somebody kicked her ass. It surely wasn't a mass epiphany, for the senior class...doubtful she changed any minds...

[Traction]

143. It doesn't make our side look good if we beat up a girl

For wearing a Confederate symbol. It really seems the left is more intolerant than the right at times as far as beating up people. I remember in high school when all the black kids wore "X" hats (when Malcolm X the movie came out), and none of the white kids liked it, but none of them beat up or jumped the black kids who wore it. Yet if one of the whites would have worn a Confederate hat, it would have been the end of him. This causes us to lose votes.

[Democat]

145. Us?

Sometimes it's not clear what people mean when they say "us".

You mean "we in the Democrat party" or "us liberals"? :(

[Traction]

195. Us meaning Democrats

Because while we are all Democrats, we certainly aren't all liberals. I always thought I was a liberal, but after two months here, I see clearly that I'm not (even though I'm definatly a Democrat).

[sled]

216. Point well taken

I understand...tolerant??? "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

[sled]

152. Agreed

Like taking Christmas, out of Christmas, & trying to call is something different, while cloaking it, under the guise of tolerance. Who's being intolerant, in either case?

Some want to settle our differences, by the rule of law, & others believe we're left, in many ways, to decide for ourselves. Goes back to the white sheets & crossing burnings. Did it grow smaller through the rule of law, or because the hearts & minds of Americans were changed, & our better selves won the day?

My point, about her getting an ass kicking, is the way things might have been, we don't know, but we jump to conclusions, either way, like assuming, the rest of the kids, were approving, of this, & it'll turn into a fad, or something.

Harm another, not good, harm yourself by wearing a Confederate dress, in Harlem, probably not the smartest move to make, & it doesn't happen, for those very reasons, not because there's a law against it. Hell, you couldn't drive her, to Harlem, & push her out of the car, in that dress. Maybe the better idea, is to teach our children why it's wrong, in the first place. Responsible parenting, & teaching respect for others.

My opinion, for what it's worth? Using the power of government, to fix problems, like this, ends up, as in this case, considering the possible outcomes, harming more, than it would in the first place. I just can't see, the senior class coming to the prom, next year, dressed in Confederate flags. But if she wins this case, we'll end up, as taxpayers, paying her college tuition. So who wins? We all lose, & next year, if she wins, there'll be more, dressed in stupid outfits, than ever before. A civil rights issue...she has the right to be ignorant, & we have the right, to shout her down, & all of our rights, remain, for our kids, to enjoy. They're sacred, to me, & it's intolerant, to try to take them away...a gift, some of us, still cherish. The freer, I can make you, the freer I also shall be, even free, to do dumb things, like dressing like a flag. A fashion statement, that would never get off the ground, but now it might now, thanks to this mess. Five years hence, the prom, may look like Gettysburg, or the kids might be dressed, in uniforms, so as not to offend anyone else's sensibilities.

Now she's got a soapbox, she never deserved, in the first place.

Respect...

[Traction]

194. Exactly

A far-right friend of mine once told me "The most intolerant people are those that preach tolerance." Sad to say, I'm starting to believe him. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

219. Not true

The most intolerant people are those who want their way or the highway! As my mom says "your rights end where my nose begins!" I don't care what you believe, but when you try to force me to believe that way or interfere with my rights, then there is an issue.

Did she have a right to wear the dress? Yes, unless it violated an established dress code for the school. Was there a better way to handle this situation? Definitely! But to act as if she is a complete victim is short-sighted! She HAD to have known the reaction she would get. Why did she do it? Southern Pride? I really doubt it! As a Southerner, through and through, that flag does not represent my Southern Pride, my beautiful accent does!

[sled]

232. Nice

A very good argument & I applaud you for making it. Your mother taught you well, as did many of our grandparents, & parents, teach us well. My grandfather used the same phrase to me, throughout his life, & it's nice, to see it again. Southern kids aren't as ill educated, as so many assume.

But, as my grandfather used it, & was passed on, to me, the meaning, from his mouth, to my ears, was I had no right, to strike another. Other than that, as a free American, I should say what I mean, & mean what I say, & always speak truth, just as you have done. It's your right, as an American.

That said, we must never assume, intent. This will be addressed, in court, & the young lady, will be able to make her case. If her intent, was to cause a civil disturbance, then she may very well, lose her case. If her clothes, were for entirely different reasons, & as she suggests, to celebrate her heritage, & her escort was a Civil War reenactor, wearing his uniform, to compliment her dress, she very well may have a solid First Amendment case, here. Intent may be what decides this case, unless the school dress code, specifically disallows, this type of clothing, & even then, it may be ruled unconstitutional, if her intent, was not to cause a disturbance, & it even appears, her principals actions, may have caused the disturbance, in the first place. If they can't produce another child, who claims they were offended, & so offended, they might take action, against her, she could very well, win this case.

It'll be interesting, to see how this plays out, but in the name of tolerance, we should never assume, we know what one means to say, by their clothing. To each his own.

Merry Christmas...

[vs the introvore]

105. if anybody remembers the "moran" on the summer campaign trails,

he happened to have been wearing an american flag bandanna wrapped around his head. why do we worry about folks burning the flag when so many others desecrate it for sport and/or art. this chick kicks thee ass for even bothering to try to make any kind of personal statement to cover up the ridiculous pretension of the prom. her brain might actually be ON. dude, she made her own dress out of a confederate flag?!?!?! duchesses of hazard, my ass! else you expect her li'l keister to be slipping out from her daisy dukes???

PS - i must see this dress.

[AlCzervik]

118. Her flag was probably bought and paid for by

freerepublic.

[silverpatronus]

123. she was within her rights to wear the dress

the school was within its rights to bar her from the prom. however, the school overstepped its bounds by bringing in the police. THAT, they had no right to do in this situation.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oddly Stevenson]

135. I'm originally from Kentucky.....

..having lived my first 19 years there. Having said that, I have to add that only in Kentucky could a girl who was not permitted to wear her confederate flag dress to her prom be defended by an attorney named Earl-Ray.

Okay, maybe in North Carolina (where I live now.)

Go Cats!

[KenCarson]

141. this story needs a fun punch line ending

like the dress is a stunt costume and it pops off at a set time with fireworks

[Traction]

142. If a gay couple were thrown out of a public school prom

Because the principle said it was inappropriate and would offend others, we'd all be outraged (and rightly so). So why the double standard? There's no explaining out of this. You are either for or against the 1st Amendment. Personally, I'm for it.

[livinginphotographs]

163. Because the Confederate flag is meant to intimidate.

Gay couples might just offend. To me, this is just like trying to go to a prom wearing gang colors.

I'm for the first amendment. I'm not for burning a cross in my front lawn if a black family lives across the street.

[Traction]

193. No it's not always meant to intimidate

Only over the past 20 years has it become a symbol of hate and white power. Before then, it was just either a sign of rebelion or Southern pride. Ever see the Dukes of Hazzard? No racism there. Honestly, the biggest hate from the rebel flag comes from the other side going nuts.

[livinginphotographs]

201. From the Websters dictionary:

Symbol - something used for or regarded as representing something else, esp. a material object representing something immaterial; emblem or sign.


The very essence of a symbol is defined by what it represents. If it represents racism, that is what the symbol is defined as. The swastika may be a Romanian sign of good luck, but that's not what it represents to Americans. The Confederate flag represents racism and slavery to a large number of people, therefore, it is not better than a burning cross. That's what a "symbol" is. Therefore, it is meant to spit in the face of those that are offended by it.

This girl was warned beforehand that it would not be acceptable. That is enough for me.

[Traction]

209. The rebel flag has been tainted by the Klan

During the last 20 years or so. Before then, no one complained or thought racism. People get offended for every stupid little reason these days, and it cost us (Dems) literally millions of votes this year alone. If this was Alabama or Mississippi, it wouldn't even be an issue. The majority would support the girl, and the few who were offended would be quiet about it.

Seriously, I'm a lower middle class true-blue union Catholic Democrat who voted for Kerry. What I hate about some in the party is that they go after things like this, or a Christmas tree in a public school, or wanting to take "God" out of The Pledge of Allegiance, or off of currency. These people are why the South is fully red now. How about going after real issues, like jobs, gas prices, increasing the minimum wage, and pulling us out of Iraq? These are the reasons I vote Democrat, not the rest.

[livinginphotographs]

211. This is totally different than wanting to take "God" out of the "Pledge."

Those poor Southerners who can't promote their racism freely don't get much sympathy from me.

I was one of those Dean supporters who agreed with him when he said to court guys with Confederate flags on their pick-ups. But I don't deny the racist connotations behind the Confederate flag.

I live in Richmond, Virginia, the ex-capital of the Confederacy. So I have a deep-running problem with that flag. Try walking down the street with your African-American girlfriend when the Sons of the Confederate Veterans are marching outside your house. That provides a little perspective.

I don't agree (or care) that it's a "win or lose" issue for the Democrats. I could care less. The Confederate flag is a racist symbol, period. Why get behind that? This girl, regardless of the probably tiny black population at her school, is trying to instigate problems. Fuck her, and fuck the Confederate flag. I could care less if this wins elections. Racists should not be accomodated, regardless of whether this keeps us out of the White House.

[livinginphotographs]

212. It is used by the racists

to fly it in the face of so-called "political correctness." I see no difference between that and a burning cross.

As I said in my other post replying to you, I live in the ex-capital of the Confederacy. And when those people march, with they do frequently, the intend to intimidate. I have an African-American girlfriend, and I can't count the number of glares I've had from those people just walking down the street to 7-11. I've had a black guy that just moved from Brooklyn ask me if this was the norm in the South, and I've had to explain to him that not all Southerners are racists.

A symbol is defined by what it means to other people. If it means racism and slavery to a majority of people, that is what it is a symbol of. They can pretend that it doesn't mean that, but that doesn't change a thing.

I can pretend that the swastika is a Romanian symbol of good luck, but flying a swastika outside my home is going to get a very negative reaction, with due cause.

This girl was wrong, period. She wore that dress intending to cause a problem, and possibly intimidate any African-Americans attending that dance. That's just as wrong as burning a cross outside, IMO. The school warned her beforehand, and were right to do so.

[truthisfreedom]

144. i wonder if the ACLU will be involved.

what a convoluted and sad story.

[mseang]

146. This is NOT a First Amendment issue...

While it seems that it is, this is a safety and security issue. I am a teacher and I just finished an Educational Law course and she really does not have a First Amendment case. The administration only has to prove that this dress may cause an insecure or unsafe situation and they can prevent her from wearing the dress. This is well documented in previous cases. In the case of the Confederate Flag, this is not difficult.

The Tinker case does not apply because those administrators could not predict the reaction that would occur if the students wore the black armbands.

First and foremost as teachers, we have a duty to provide a safe and secure environment for our students. In my opinion, and I am a staunch first amendment rights supporter, the school acted correctly and this case will never actually see the inside of a courtroom.

[michaelwb]

154. Not really

I'm guessing from your post you never lived in the South, US - especially a small town.

Unfortunately, the sight of a Conferate Flag is rather common and NOT likely to "cause an insecure or unsafe situation."

It's a taste, manners and First Amendment issue, not a safety.

I don't agree with her choice, but she does have a right to make an ass of herself.

[auburngrad82]

177. Having lived through riots at our HS in Georgia in the 70s, it is a safety

issue. It doesn't take much for things to escalate when you have several hundred kids.

I've lived in the south almost my whole life. I grew up in Georgia, went to college in Alabama and now live in a very small town in North Carolina.

Yes the confederate flag is rather common in the south but it is frequently used as a symbol of racial superiority by whites in the south.

I have relatives that do Civil War re-enactment. The Civil war was a very interesting time in our country. In the context of history I don't have a problem with a confederate flag. In the context of a "statement" I do since it is invariably a racial statement.

[sled]

204. Right

I think the dude's probably a "reenactor" & there may be actual First Amendment issues involved. It's not just a southern thing...just a guess...if he's what I think he is, & they can show he's an active participant, & it involves folks, from all over the country...who knows??? It's a hobby, for these guys...if this guy would have shown up, in a Union uniform & she'd have worn a US flag, it probably wouldn't even be an issue, & there's southern guys, who actually reenact, as Union troops...it's not a big deal, to them...& a good lawyer, could probably win this case, under these circumstances...

"Civil War News Home Page"
http://www.civilwarnews.com/

[TankLV]

260. Let me guess - you're white.

Amazing how you can tell others that it is no big deal.

What a surprise!

[auburngrad82]

174. Exactly. Well-stated. eom

[ZR2]

149. I would love to see the reaction if a hate group chose a donkey as

it's symbol. Would that mean everyone that used the donkey symbol would automatically be associated with this group the same way anyone with a Confederate Flag is associated with the KKK ?

[GOPBasher]

153. Oh gee, I'm sorry, your school won't allow blantent racism?

[fortyfeetunder]

156. Now that I've seen the red dress

If she really wanted to display her ancestral heritage in a prom dress, she should have researched what the origin of the ship her ancestors traveled to the USA, and come up with a dress from that country. (Oh wow, just imagine if she was German....oh oh!)

edited to remove superfluous comment.

[Nihil]

165. There are more repressive flags in the world than that one.

You only have to look at the old black & white photos of the Klan
that have been posted in this thread to see that.

Do you think the dumb kid would have been banned if she'd worn the
stars & stripes? If not, why not? ("Because we're patriots dammit!")

How about the Japanese flag? They've fought against the Union more
recently than the Confederacy did ...

How about the British flag? That's another old war that you are proud
to have won. You beat "us" fair and square (well, more like "insurgent
tactics" really but who's counting?)

Do you think the dumb kid would have been banned if she's worn a dress
based on the Iraqi flag? The Afghani flag? The Iranian flag?

No, on second thoughts, these wouldn't be recognised as anything
other than pretty patterned cloth as the people protesting this have
such a pathetically insular mindset that they cannot comprehend that
their own beloved rag on a pole is far more tainted than the one they
are protesting.

Yes, the kid is dumb. Yes, her parents are exploiting her to get some
money. No, the flag in itself is simply not worth the fuss.

But hey, it makes for better news than civilians dying in Iraq.

[American Tragedy]

170. If people are determined to make themselves look like morons

I see little reason to stop them.

Of course, there isn't much room for serious argument. Prom is pretty much subject to the school's discretion.

[ToBeCooked]

186. I have no issues with her wearing the dress.

I wear a Cars R Coffins shirt and it expresses how I feel. I may not agree with her opinion, but we live in a free society and she has every right to wear it. This is as long as her school was a public school. If it was a private school, I would assume they have a legal right to ban her from wearing the dress.

[Democracy Died 2004]

187. She can wear what she wants to

and if she wants to look like white trash that's ok too.

[manhattanite]

188. HERE'S A PIC OF HER AND HER DATE

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

202. I wonder if Gen. Beauregard there spent 4 yrs. working on his getup too?

[sled]

203. My best guess

I think he's probably a "reenactor" type. I used to work with a guy, from Mississippi, who was into that stuff, & actually played a Union soldier & had a part in the movie "Gods & Generals". They do it on weekends, all over the country. A lot of them, are recruited for bit parts, in every Civil War movie, ever made. "Gettysburg's" another good example. Just a guess...

It's not as unusual, as folks might believe. Much ado, about nothing...makes a little more sense, since they've shown her date. That's a grown man, or a big ass boy, anyway...

"The Civil War Reenactors Home Page"
http://www.cwreenactors.com/

"Gods & Generals"
http://www.ronmaxwell.com/ggenerals.html

Check out their "calendar of events"...it's north & south...
http://www.civilwarnews.com/calendar/calendar.cfm

[TexasBushwhacker]

230. Yeah, is that her date or her dad?

Whoever he is, he isn't in high school, that's for sure.

Some people will do anything to get in the press.

[sled]

235. Yep, who knows...

I'm just slow to criticize people, I don't even know, especially considering the media's track record, & even considering gossip, folks tend to make a mountain, out of a mole hill. Maybe she actually was trying to start a riot, maybe she was trying to create a situation, to sue for a lot of money, or maybe it's much ado, about nothing.

I just don't trust, mainstream media, to bring me everything factual, about any situation. They're generally as wrong, as many times as they're right. Hell, look at their track record, considering this mess in Iraq. They told everybody there were WMDs lying all over, the place, when, personally, I believed Scott Ritter, from the start. Being a vet, myself, I just couldn't see, a former Marine, coming out & bull shitting his countrymen, like that. And as things would have it, he wasn't.

Consider the source, & what their motives, may be. This kind of, what just may be, tabloid journalism is always suspect, in my eyes. Nothing constructive, just destructive, & divides this country, more & more, everyday.

If this is such an important "issue" to everybody, why doesn't somebody just try to contact, these guys, & ask them what the problem is? You might be pleasantly surprised, that they're somebody you'd have a beer with. Who knows, but nobody will ever get to the bottom of it, blasting epithets, at each other, that's for sure.

A lot of folks just seem to expect the worst of people, & I try my damnedest, not to be like that.

Hell, it's Christmas eve, time to celebrate, it's just good to be breathing, far as I'm concerned. Could be worse, we could be troops, in Iraq, or the Iraqi people, for that matter.

Merry Christmas, to all & to all, a good night...

[Divine Discontent]

218. om!

general beauregard!? lolololololol

glad she got her Dad to go on a date with her to keep her from being BEATEN UP by the goths!

[Divine Discontent]

220. notice where...

the photo is taken. looks like a garage with that concrete floor (of course, could be there living room), and then on top of that, general beauregard (dad) there, is allowed by the photographer (mom), to push open the black curtain with his pork eatin arm, exposing the plywood and stealing what little glamour the darling rebel-clad princess had (the curtain).



oh the joys of sarcasm when you've been attacked by rethuglicans for years........

[Sean Reynolds]

190. It boils down to this......

She has every right in the world to make that her dress. However if the staff at the HS felt it was inappropriate and could cause a problem, they have every right in the world to deny her a chance of entering the school.

I'm sure if I walked into HS dance with the swastika attached to my sleeve I would be sent home. There is no difference here. She can fight it all she wants, but when it's a public school they must keep order and lower the level of something getting out of hand. A dress like this very well could lead to violence because of it offending. Since it's a public school it must abide by the public law that every child within the care of the educational staff is entitled to a safe school.

This is what school dress codes are made for. Because when you live in a diverse society, symbols such as these offend and hurt one too many people.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but when it hampers the learning environment of a school, I think it's the staff's right to ban her from the dance. Just as I agree with telling people they can't wear politically motivated shirts, or any other material that may offend, or cause problems within the school. They're there to learn, not make a damn fashion statement.

Now if she got the approval of every student within the school saying that they wouldn't be offended, I say let her wear it. If she didn't, she shouldn't.

And that's what it boils down to.

Now don't let this mean I conform to the notion of student uniforms. I do not. I believe people can and should be able to express themselves in their clothing (or in their drawing, writing, etc). However we must be sincere to other people's needs and beliefs. It's obvious this type of symbol doesn't inspire good in countless folks.

So why wear it?

[TexasBushwhacker]

231. As a former high school teacher, I agree

Schools having dress codes is nothing new, and standards for appropriate attire at proms, athletic events etc. are common place, and common sense. When girls started wearing short dresses to proms (easier to dance in!) they had to make rules about how short, and then when thong underwear came on the scene, they had to make rules about no thong underwear under short dresses. Yes, it's ridiculous, but we're dealing with teenagers here, and teenagers will push the envelope, won't they.

IMHO, once the principal found out and told her she could not wear the dress, that was it. If the principal hadn't found out about it in advance and she just showed up with wearing it, well, then the principal would have had to make a decision on the spot. She defied her principal's ruling and subsequently missed her senior prom. Dumb de dumb dumb.

If her "Southern" heritage is so important to her, why didn't she dress up like Scarlet O'Hara with a hoop skirt and ruffles. They didn't have sequins in the 1800's.

[rudlop]

197. Her only crime is bad taste

Why a confederate flag dress? Maybe the NASCAR idea was already taken.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

207. since when did kids have any free speech rights in high school? nt.

[Divine Discontent]

217. oh GOOD heavens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Open toed pumps with THAT dress?! :wow:

[proud2BlibKansan]

246. I thought she was barefoot

[Freebird12004]

224. what happened to ruffles

and it sounds like the Lil Lady had an ax to grind --- rather than a party to go to. I thought proms were supposed to be happy.

[Mabeline]

233. What about her right to self expression?

We see many people dressed in many different things, boys wearing their pants low enough to show they are mooning everyone, girls in skirts and tee shirts so tight there's nothing to the imagination...guys wearing makeup and dresses...hair all colors of the rainbow, spiked hair, all black, piercings, tatooes, punk, goth, flags of every other country, political group, organization.... and it is all acceptable, but she wants to wear the confederate flag and she's to be censored. I disagree.

[Divine Discontent]

236. Mabeline is true

wow, lots of good references. but still, wearing that represents the south, which fought the civil war to keep blacks as slaves, that's a racist historical flag and shouldn't be worn at a public setting. it's over the line. but you argue nicely on the other side!!! :)

[Mabeline]

242. Depends on what one believes the Civil War was about.

Maybe she believes it was truly about states rights. Many do.

[Ms. Clio]

245. Maybe you believe that

But historians know it was not about states' rights, it was about slavery, and the expansion of slavery.

[Mabeline]

248. The thread is about this teens dress, my comment was meant to be

related to that. The Civil War is a very touchy subject to many and if I replied about that it would hijack this thread and probably end up a different discussion.

Oh what the heck, slavery could not have been expanded any more other than with the birth of slave babies, there was a law enacted that no new slaves were to be brought into the states back in 1808.

*1828 the "Tariff of Abominations" was enacted

"In August 1827, delegates to a convention in Harrisburg, PA signed a petition to force Congress to do something about the grievances of both farm and manufacturing interests by increasing tariffs. The northern states were generally in favor, but southerners weren't because the higher tariffs meant higher prices for the manufactured products they didn't produce themselves, while southerners also felt Great Britain and France would retaliate on items like cotton, forcing the region into poverty.

The result was the Tariff of Abominations in 1828. Historian Robert Remini described it as a "ghastly, lopsided, unequal bill, every section of which showed marks of political preference and favoritism."

*1833 "Compromise of Tariff" brought the prices down gradually over several years until 1842.

*1857 Congress passes the Tariff of 1857 lowering rates to the lowest level since 1812 to 20%, this is very unpopular in the North and praised in the South.


*1860 November - Abraham Lincoln is elected president. Lincoln received 40% of the popular vote and won 59% of the Electoral votes. He was not even on the ballot in the deep south.


*1863 January 1 - President Lincoln issues the final Emancipation Proclamation freeing all slaves in territories held by Confederates and emphasizes the enlisting of black soldiers in the Union Army. The war to preserve the Union now becomes a revolutionary struggle for the abolition of slavery.


I am by no means a historian, yes, I am from the south, and proud of my heritage, I have family that fought in the civil war on both sides, as well as the war of 1812 and revolutionary war. The civil war began in 1860/1861 and Lincoln didn't free the slaves until 1863. Being raised in the south we learned much of what I noted above in grammer school, that is why I believe the civil war was begun because of states rights, not slavery.

[Ms. Clio]

249. Well, that explains it

"Being raised in the south we learned much of what I noted above in grammer school, that is why I believe the civil war was begun because of states rights, not slavery."

If you attended a halfway decent college or university anytime in the last 20 years, you would know that was completely wrong.

Why did all the states that seceded specifically claim that they were doing so in order to protect and preserve slavery? Have you read any primary source documents from the period--the newspapers, the secession declarations, etc? Why did the Confederate Constitution specifically bar any laws that would interfere with slavery?

The only "rights" that Southerners cared about before the war was their "right" to own human beings as property and take them wherever they pleased.

[sled]

250. A good place to do some research...

A good place to do some research...might help resolve the issue, specifically addressing slavery & secession. A terrible chapter, in American history, no doubt...

http://americancivilwar.com/

"The Crittenden Compromise" - December 18, 1860
http://americancivilwar.com/documents/crittenden_compromise.html

"American Civil War - Timeline 1861"
http://americancivilwar.com/tl/timeline.html

"Abraham Lincoln - First Inaugural Address"
Monday, March 4, 1861
http://americancivilwar.com/documents/lincoln_inaugural_1.html

"Civil War Documents"
http://americancivilwar.com/documents/index.html

[Mabeline]

254. Isn't it nice...

that when someone makes a post where they've taken the time to do the research and make sure they have their facts in order to make a halfway decent discussion possible the best response is to attack their education and the region they are from. Are you sure this isn't just your prejudice against us southerners coming out?

But one must wonder why would the halfway decent college or university of the past 20 years be the best to attend, they finally have the popular slant of the war the way everyone wants it?

I don't mind discussions, name calling or putting someone down is not my thing.

But thanks for the ...er...discussion.

[Ms. Clio]

257. Feel free to "slant it" anyway you want

The primary source documents do not support your interpretation.

[TankLV]

259. And exactly what were those "states rights" that the traitorous south

went to war for?

Hmmmmmmm?

It was the for the sole right to own and keep slaves, and to extend that "right" to the territories that were not yet states and soon to become new states.

Somebody needs to educate themselves on the subject.

Only southern "appologists" use the term "states rights" when trying to define the civil war.

Amazing how many of them are white, too.

[Mabeline]

262. Considering that everyone

that has responded to my post hasn't done anything but use put-downs and name calling when I did look up my dates and info, I'd say you may be right that "somebody" needs to educate themselves, but you are incorrect in your innuendo that it is I. Did you know that when the north decided they didn't need/want slaves anymore they didn't free their slaves, they sold them to southern plantation owners?

No one from the south would disagree that the one topical issue during the civil war was slavery, I am just saying that there was an underlying issue that had been building for years. Did anyone read, I mean really read my post? If it makes you feel better to call me an appologist, so be it, but why not discuss the issues I present instead of telling me I need to educate myself?



Here is a list of some of the sources I used in my original post;

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/timeline.asp

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/gahff/html/ff_176200_tariffofabom.htm

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/gahff/html/ff_042200_compromiseta.htm

http://www.nv.cc.va.us/home/nvsageh/Hist121/Part3/Calhoun1828.htm

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h268.html

http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2003/tariff_of_abominations.html

http://www.civilwar.com/docuhome1.htm

(Not one I researched, but found tonight.)
http://www.kusd.edu/schools/lance/platinum/banaszynski/civil_war_2002/us_civil_war.html#secession

An excert of one page:

"On December 20, 1860, South Carolina Seceded from the Union. Within a year, 10 more states (Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and finally Tennessee). On January 9,10,11,19, and 26 Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and Louisiana respectively seceded. On April 17, Virginia also secedes. After Virginia, Arkansas seceded on May 6, followed by North Carolina on May 20. On June 8, Tennessee secedes. On November 6, Missouri is admitted to the Confederacy, even though it never seceded, completing the Confederacy. Now, one might ask yourself."Why would the South secede anyway?" Well, they did have several grievances toward the North , but the final blow that shattered the Union was the outcome of the Election of 1860, when Lincoln was elected. There were several other reasons why the South seceded. One of them was that the North had placed high tariffs on all of their imports forcing them to sell raw materials at low prices. Another reason for the South seceding was the whole slavery issue. Slaves were getting extremely expansive (to buy and maintain), and, with the plantation owners being forced to lower the prices on their goods dramatically, where in no condition to buy/replace any more slaves. They were also angered by the fact that Congress had passed a law banning the "import" of any more slaves into the US. This, as previously stated, drastically raised the price of all remaining slaves. These are some of the reasons why the South seceded., "

[fortyfeetunder]

239. Self expression vs. common sense.

I can't completely buy into the self-expression bit.

It's been long acknowledged as a negative and inflammatory (and sometimes construed to be racist) symbol in the US culture. The Confederate states are no longer recognized. And the political conflicts in SE America, particularly by African Americans, regarding display of the Confederate flag in public places. Not to mention the vestiges of North vs South conflict that still exist today.

Now if she was going to a Confederate reenactment ball at a private party, sure I wouldn't have a problem with her wearing it. That is an appropriate means of self-expression.

But she was going to a public school event, where she was attending with children of a more diverse population (diverse in politic as well as diverse in ethnic characteristics), then I agree with the teachers and other posters who say she definitely should not have pursued wearing that dress.

This young woman, while desiring self-expression, lacked common sense and was obviously pushing the limits of her rebellion and to some extent stupidity.

[Mabeline]

241. But isn't pushing the limits of rebellion

what a lot of kids are doing when they dress the way the do? It may not be in the best of taste, but I think many people would be offended if she'd worn flags from other nations, like many people now feel bad towards France and her wearing the flag of that country could possibly cause as many problems for her as the rebel flag could. How about Great Britian, or Canada, or Africa? What about groups such as one of the groups for blacks? What is she were black and wanted to wear a flag of the black panthers? (if there is one) Since this IS a diverse country there are all kinds of people and just because some don't agree with her, why should she have to NOT wear what she wants, as long as she behaves with dignity and respect to everyone else.

If she'd been a guy (transexual) and wanted to wear this dress what would have been said? Here you have a man who wants to dress as a woman and chooses this dress, tell me the outcome would be the same.

[Bridget Burke]

252. She was trying to stir up trouble.

And she succeeded. The dress would have personally offended other students & the officials were correct to bar her from the prom.

She's quite free to wear the dress elsewhere--although the style is really not that flattering for her.

[killbotfactory]

247. Dress codes for the prom aren't illegal

And she wasn't arrested for wearing her stupid dress outside the prom.

what a stupid lawsuit.

[barackmyworld]

256. Yep, there are LOTS of restrictions

Some PUBLIC schools I know of mandated dresses with straps, longer than the knee, and one-piece. These are already arbitrary restrictions.

[Forced Into Exile]

251. Free Expression

Take another look at those who prevented the girl from wearing rebel flag dress. Ask yourself, "self, was this an act to protect the girl from harm and ridicule".

She should have been allowed to wear that which she wore.

[Bridget Burke]

253. They weren't trying to protect her from harm & ridicule.

But--if it had occurred--I'm quite sure she would have sued.

[Nevernose]

255. Th ACLU ensured the Nazi's march in Skokie

If the stupid, racist little twat wants to wear a confederate battle flag as a dress, then the stupid, racist little twat should be allowed to wear a confederate battle flag as a dress.

(The word "twat" here is a Joe Bob Briggs reference)

[Name removed]

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