Yushchenko Backers Block Building

[wicket]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041229/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_election

Boisterous supporters of President-elect Viktor Yushchenko blockaded the government headquarters on Wednesday, preventing the prime minister from convening a Cabinet session.

Yushchenko had called for the blockade after Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych refused to concede defeat in Sunday's presidential election and late Tuesday appealed to Ukraine's Supreme Court.

About 1,000 demonstrators gathered at the government building early Wednesday, blocking off the entrances. People showing up for work were turned away.

"Resign! Resign!" the crowd chanted, banging on drums. Many wore ribbons and carried banners of orange, Yushchenko's campaign color. A few carried the red and black flags of Ukraine's Una-Unso, an ultranationalist group.

[Lost4words]

1. When I read about the Ukraine, I am embarrassed for the usa.

I would like a Democrat leader more like Genghis Kahn than little johnny kerry.

[pinerow]

7. Ukraine...One of Hitlers most reliable allies...

I have a very difficult time getting worked up over these so-called "west leaning" countries...Slovenia, Serbia...ad infinitum.

BTW...don't ask for documentation...if one has studied WWII, even on a cursory level, one will know I am not incorrect in this assesment.

[Lost4words]

9. Its the uprising that I support, not the country or its history.

Or do you think that we should have remained subjects of the British crown. BTW I am quite familiar with WWII and the rise of fascism in Europe prior to WWII. Anybody who is knowledgeable as you say you are would share my fear today!

So dont bother yourself with any of these trivial matters.

Dont forget Prescott Bush was also "One of Hitlers most reliable allies", or more appropriately, one of Hitlers most enthusiastic financial supporters.

:puke:

[pinerow]

28. I cannot figure out how you managed to invoke Prescott Bush

in a conversation about Ukraine. My point, in case it may have escaped you, is that even the "west-leaning" countries in the area still have and continue to express their fascist tendencies...the lesser of two evils is still evil.

[Lost4words]

69. Nothing your sorry little brain conceived could ever escape me,

just why you are here is peeking my curiosity however. We are a country because many people, unlike yourself, decided that it was better to challenge the current authority rather than be subject to it. Brave revolutionaries who defied the status quo who were satisfied with the crown. Our Revolution did not have 100% support of the people. So you would have fit in nicely with those loyalists.

As far as the lesser of two evils, I d choose to have the flu over lung cancer but Id rather stay well. Ill take the lesser evil over the greater evil if that is the only option. At least it is a move in the right direction.

And for the last f-ing time, I dont have any great love or respect for the Ukraine, its officials or history. I admire the people who had the moxie to take it to the streets.

You talk of fascists, take a look around!

Dont reply to me again, you are the only person I have ever put on ignore.

[Raster]

53. And his most American of money launderers.

[TankLV]

16. Yes - it is much easier to be simplistic and read into it what you want to

push.

The Ukraine has been aboused and the Ukrainians have been slaughtered by the russians for centuries.

Just prior to their "alliance" with Hitler, the Russians butchered Ukerainians and force the starvation of millions int the early 30's.

Hitler offered the Ukrainians independence - which was soon a lie.

Who would you trust in a similar situation - hell all repukes wanted an alliance with Hitler during this time and all the major news organizations praised him and moussoulini for "keeping the trains on time", etc. etc.

Of course, the unfortunate Ukrainians soon learned first hand what such an "alliance" would bring in the form of the death camps.

Your purile and infantile accessment of history leaves a lot to be desired.

[pinerow]

29. The persecution of the Jews and Romani are very well documented...

and the common folk of Ukraine jumped right on board...

[TankLV]

39. Like I said - failure to understand the underlying reasons for such

actions is much easier than to make simplistic statements.

SOME Ukrainians wanted to side with Hitler, just like bunkerboy's family. MOST did not. The Ukrainians were striving for independence, not to jump aboard the death machine.

Regardless, the "alliance" did not last more than a few months before Hitler sent millions of his "allies" to death camps.

[Lost4words]

8. Let me explain my post....

I would like to see a democrat restore legitimacy to the election system by using the same determination that Genghis Kahn used in his attempt to concur the world. I am not necessarily suggesting a hoard of marauding blood thirsty warriors scorching the earth, although Bush is doing that just fine right now, but a strong leader that cares more for the will and betterment of all citizens of the USA and also the people of the world not just the uber rich.

You know like the bullshit most people of the usa were taught in school.

I have since learned the real Golden Rule, They who have the gold make the rules.

:puke:

[pinerow]

32. Strong leader...???...that's what the Russians had in Stalin

and the Germans had in Hitler...

[Lost4words]

68. So you are happy with a spineless imbecile, like yourself?

you are happy kerry rolled over like he did. STRONG DOSENT MEAN TYRANT you silly little twit!

go home your mothers callin! :spank:

[colonel odis]

2. it's hellaciously ironic that a former soviet republic shows the world

the importance of free elections and the democratic process.

i guess living under dictatorial govts for so long made them understand how precious democracy is. perhaps we'll do the same one day.

can't you hear the world laughing at us?

[jmatthan]

3. I am laughing and crying here in Oulu, Finland

eom

[genieroze]

13. At least you are in Finland. eom

[Kagemusha]

4. Myself, I don't understand this. Good for the goose...

Why can only Yushchenko challenge elections? Why can't Yanukovych get his day in court too? In democratic countries, both sides get a fair hearing.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Its because CNN's Jill Doherty (ain't she purtty) says Yushchenko won

And that is good enough for most. No more questions allowed. Swear him in.

Don

[0007]

27. .....and junior nods his head up and down like a government mule.

[Walt Starr]

6. Now Yushenko is being more thuggish than his opposition

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

[Robbien]

10. Yes. It looks like Florida 2000 all over again

Bush demanding that he won so Gore should concede. When Gore did not, Bush sent his goons into the streets to block the vote count.

Change the names to Yushenko and Yanukovych and you have the present Ukraine situation.

[kostya]

11. I'm sorry, but how is it like FL 2000?

In this case we have a well-monitored election (12,000 observers), standardized voting procedures, and the victor had an 8% margin. Plus, it's done on a popular vote basis, not with electors. So, tell me again what the parallels are with FL? - K

[Robbien]

14. It closely resembles the takeover of an election by bully tactics

Your well-monitored election monitors was bought and paid for by Bush and Blair money. The press on the election is all one sided where all election fraud is not being reported (i.e. whole sectors of eastern voters were taken off the voter rolls). Only Yushenko protesters were reported, but Yanukovich protesters ignored. Now a team of orange-suited bullies are demanding the election be ceded without investigating the claims of fraud and is stopping all government activity in the city.

The Ukraine situation is exactly the same as Florida 2000. Only the global capitalists get a voice in the press while the opposition is silenced. Bush was claimed to be a popular president by the press. Now that exact same press is claiming Yushencko is the popular president. All western press is walking in step.

[TankLV]

18. Bullshit - you have no clue of what you are talking about.

Yuschenko's supporters are doing what Gore should have done in responce to bunkerboy's brownshirts.

Yuschenko is standing up to the brownshirts by not letting them get away with stealing the elections.

[Robbien]

20. Go ahead. Keep on believing the mainstream media

Yushenko's supporters are doing what Bush supporters would have done if Kerry had gotten the most votes since both are being back by Bush money.

There is so much fraud in the Ukraine election. Eastern people were taken off the voter roles, streets in the east were painted orange to intimidate voters not to vote, radio broadcasts in favor of Yanukovich were mysteriously taken off the air, voter monitors were only in the eastern part of the country but kept away from the western and southern parts. The monitors were paid NGO's of Bush and Blair.

But go ahead you believe mainstream media and put Yushenko up on a pedistal while he privatizes Ukraines assets to the global capitalists.

[Tinoire]

30. Robbien, I have to back you up on this but

please be gentle. We have been thoroughly and totally had and people like you who have been following this from deep down are going to have to show much sensitivity when treading on people's hopes that an independent Ukraine is being achieved.

The key is going to be exposing Cheney's dealings with Yushchenko's people in the Ukraine and they're out there.

If I were Ukrainian, in what is now a time of joy for many sincere Ukrainians, I would have problems with people like you and me for pissing on that joy.

The whole mess is heart-breaking.

[Just Me]

41. Kinda' brings us back to choosing between two evils,...

,...doesn't it.

*sigh*

Sometimes,...the struggle seems overwhelming. Absolute struggle against absolute corruption.

[TankLV]

42. Again - I call bullshit. I've been following this for over 3 years now.

All you johnnycomelatelys know nothing.

I have to disagree with you strongly on this one Tinoire.

Try talking to the Ukrainina people.

Yuschenko is the good guy here.

It is right to be suspect of anything that bunkerboy and the repukes touch - but this time it just happens to be a more of a great coincidence than any repuke conspiracy.

[Just Me]

46. I hope you're right, Tank,...

,...I really do,...really.

I hope Yuschenko is the hero humanity thirsts for. I'll watch and I'll hope for the best for the Ukrainian people. They deserve a compassionate and strong leader. So do we.

[podnoi]

54. Read tanklv's previous posts for a caution on his perspective

they border on ethnic prejudice.

In previous posts he stereotypes the eastern half as "not true Ukrainians" and advocates that they deserve to be disinfranchised and if they can't learn Ukrainian they should be "shipped to Russia".

I have relatives there by the way.

[Just Me]

57. I disagree with your interpretation.

But, of course, you are FREE to interpret as you wish or choose.

[podnoi]

61. Do you agree that Russian Speaking Ukrainians are not true

Ukrainians? That people who don't know Russian should not be prejudiced against? Keep in mind that most of the people who live in the country were taught Russian in elementry school. Many of them are too old to learn a new language. What is "democratic" about removing Russian language TV from the airwaves? What will you do with the greater than 50% who speak Russian as their primary language?

Which part do you not agree with? Have you searched back in Tanks comments? He wants revenge for what previous generations have done to his ancestors. That is called a "circle of violence". That is what is driving many of Yuschenko's supporters.

By the way I have read a lot on this too. I would not support *either candidate*. But the truth matters. And I am very concerned for my relatives. They are good, kind people and do not deserve to be hurt by nationalists.

[Just Me]

62. No.

Good, kind people do not deserve to be hurt.

I haven't seen any evidence that Tank is against good, kind people.

Have you?

Tank seems to intend "justice" rather than "vengence",...and also appears to advocate for "the people".

Perhaps, we should be slow to judge,...while "truth" unfolds.

After all, none of us have the trademark, copyright or patent on "truth". Only the "rule of law" helps to guide us towards that.

C'mon. Breathe.

[podnoi]

67. Can I ask... How can one have "Justice" when the country

to extract justice on is dissolved. The USSR no longer exists. Ukraine is a seperate country. There are still people likely alive that could be brought to justice. But to search for a group to blame when there is none any longer...

well, we didn't do that to the Germans and they are still the same country. And it seems we did the right thing in distinguishing the leaders from the rest, don't you think?

[TankLV]

72. Bullshit. That is your judgemental opinion.

Read this YOUR posts and we can all see where YOU are comming from.

The fact is that the Easter half IS populated by Russian immigrants settled there by Stalin.

They don't even speak the fucking language of their supposed country!

I do not believe they should be shipped to russia, but if they so dislike Ukrainian culture and never even bother to speak the language, I wonder why they continue to stay there.

Is it not fair to expect that one be expected to speak the language and learn the culture of the country they allegedly vow allegience to?

[podnoi]

84. Nationalism discussion

"I do not believe they should be shipped to russia"

TankLV,

I am glad to see that tempers are softening and you really don't believe that Russian Speaking Ukrainians should be forced to leave the country (You *DID* say that).

I hope that you and your relatives in the West of Ukraine will now fight to make sure that the other half (such as MY relatives) are not disinfranchised and persecuted. Injustice to your ancestors, if it is answered by injustice to another, just breeds war and misery. So hopefully the Nationalist side of the "Orange Revolution" will be quickly exposed and extinguished...

[TankLV]

40. Bullshit - you know nothing of what you are talking about.

I have relatives and friends there - NOTHING from the "mainstream media" as you suggest.

Bullshit on your ignorance of the subject.

[pinerow]

44. Read it and weep...

http://eng.for-ua.com/comments/2002/03/22/141006.html

[TankLV]

73. I've read it. Does nothing to negate the facts that I have presented.

I've noticed that you feel free to post to my inbox, but like the coward you are, do not permit me the same courtesy.

Nice.

I have justified reasons to believe as I do. Your simplistic posturing helps no one.

The fact remains that the overwhelming reason for the Ukrainian alliance with Germany is because Germany promised the Ukraine indepencence - this happened only a year or 2 after Stalins instituted starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians.

There are despicable persons in every culture - and that these types used a sad situation to make matters worse is inexcusable.

I condemn any and all violence in this situation, but the Russian thugs are only now screaming now that the Ukrainian people are pushing back. Can you blame them? I do not condone this cycle of "revenge" - I only want justice for a long suffering people. The Ukrainian people have been given the shaft by their Russian "brothers" in this current situation. That is a fact.

If Yuschenko turns out to support or even excuse the actions of these horrible people, I will be the first to condemn him - but so far, he has himself condemned these people.

[PATRICK]

21. This is not an argument

Of course the "good guys" should have put up a good fight like this, but the point is painfully true that they would NOT have without the artificial aid of the US in its own cynical interests- backing a corporate ultra nationalist over a Kremlin crony. This is what thrills the heart of a DLC dreamer.Rah rah for the little plutocrat. How sour and unenthusiastic the Democratic leadership is- to have to contend with real liberals and progressives who really want democracy and fairness right here at home.

I would have at least added the point that maybe we could have some equal
enthusiasm at least for bipartisan government funding of elections here- to achieve democratic results such as we pump primed in the Ukraine.

I don't think we have to pass judgment on the people of the Ukraine or its fight for democracy- only the revolting scandal of US hypocrisy and its tainted motivation doubled to the max when compared to its practices back home(BOTH parties). I think the peoples of all countries are pretty much treated like patsies once the cheering stops.

[Tinoire]

31. Whoa good truth there..

the peoples of all countries are pretty much treated like patsies once the cheering stops

[Just Me]

43. Sadly, you have hit the nail on the head,...

,...peoples of all countries are pretty much treated like patsies,...

The people are pawns.

Democracy has become merely a "carrot" to get everyone into the game.

[NNN0LHI]

45. I think you may be on to something n/t

[TankLV]

74. I cannot disagree with a single thing you have said.

What you have said is also true.

[podnoi]

85. There are no "Good Guys"

That is the problem. And we will never have a peaceful world if we do not call *all* sides to a higher standard, regardless if they claim to support "Democracy" or not.

[TankLV]

17. Wrong again.

They are mainly protecting the election results. The opposition refuses to support the results of the finally legitimate count of the vote - the opposition was trying to install it's losing members in a parlimentary session that they had no business doing.

Someone needs to do a litte more research on the subject.

This in no way can compre to the brownshirt tactics of the opposition.

[genieroze]

12. Oh Shaddup! Hearing this makes me depressed as heck. eom

[radric]

15. From reading alternative news..

about the situation in the Ukraine that the east and south may secede and join or forge closer ties with Russia. These people are Russian speaking and don't have a lot in common with the Ukrainian speaking western sections. The south/eastern sections are also the industrial heartland of Ukraine too. This may be a huge mess in the near future...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

33. An alternative Virew from the Ukraine

Messy messy situation because only one side is being represented in the US media. Honestly, I fear a huge rift akin to civil war on this... This is worse than Alsace-Lorraine.
======

the situation in ukraine is intriguing. first, there's the obvious parallel to our own election. yes yes, it's very ironic that bush spoke of exit polling irregularity and vote fraud when weighing in on the ukrainian results. and no, i'm not suprised to find out that we were meddling once again (over %65 million worth). and it was even more ironic to hear bush proclaim that outside influences shouldn't be meddling in the ukraine election process.

*sigh*

but it's been a beautiful thing to watch from a distance as ordinary people took to the streets in protest of rampant and widespread fraud. at least some people don't take their democracy for granted.

but beyond that, i'm actually interested in the situation for purely selfish reasons, as the monkey and i have been considering international adoption - specifically from the ukraine. we have a close friend who grew up in ukraine, specifically the donetsk region, and we finally got to pick his brain last weekend. ever since the shit hit the fan over there i've been dying to ask him what he thinks. i've been trying to keep up with the developments, but in my opinion nothing beats the perspective of an actual ukrainian.

i was quite suprised at the opinions expressed by our friend. they were quite a contrast to the one-sided story we're getting over here. interestingly enough, our friend took a pro-russian position.



mikhael is in his twenties and came to america four years ago to attend college. his parents still live in donetsk and while he did keep in touch quite frequently before the election, now he is making weekly calls that last a few hours. his parents are of what we might call a working class background, but mikhael says they never really wanted for anything when he was growing up. he told us that nobody in ukraine ever stood in line for toilet paper or bread until right before the USSR collapsed, and by then everything was pretty bad anyway.

i first asked him about donetsk, which is in the heart of eastern russia. he explained how the country of ukraine is already split by language. the eastern half of the country speaks russian and the western half speaks ukrainian. the area around kiev is more mixed. both languages are taught in the primary schools and most ukrainians are bilingual. the eastern half of the country is very proud of it's russian heritage and many people living in the region consider themselves russian first. meanwhile, the westerners are proud of their ukrainian heritage and are eager to join europe like many of the other former soviet republics.

his parents supported yanukovik as did the majority in donetsk. they are very upset right now and concerned about the upcoming sovereignty vote in the east. although they feel very loyal to russia, they don't want to see their country torn apart over this issue. they feel that joining the EU will be detrimental to ukraine. they feel that ukraine will become - in mikhael's words - "europe's bitch". i imagine that losing their russian identity during the original split was a blow to their pride, and that a move towards uniting with europe would strike an even deeper blow.

considering what happened to yuschenko, i wondered if it was in the realm of possibility that ukraine would have a civil war if the election issue didn't get settled peacefully. mikhael shrugged that off and explained that ukrainians as a whole aren't prone to violence. he says that's not how things are done. then i asked him how he felt about the vote fraud and he said it's nothing new. they just do it differently now. back in the day, the factory bosses would get all the workers together and go to the polls to vote in mass for a candidate. it was a system of organised ballot-stuffing, but it was all on the square.

but then mikhael said something that really suprised me when i asked him how he felt about yuschenko being poisoned. he said "they should have shot the mother fucker". then he went on a short rant about yuschenko working with westerners in order to split ukraine from russia. he feels yuschenko's group doesn't respect the wishes of the eastern ukrainians, that yuschenko and his ilk are just dying to westernise the country and get rich in the process. mikhael doesn't trust yuschenko and questions his motives. apparently that sentiment is very common among about half the population.

mikhael hopes that the country doesn't split, but figures if it does happen it will happen peacefully. his parents are concerned as well and are simply trying to live day to day. they tell him that most people in the east are simply going about their business while the crowd camps out in kiev. they are used to carrying on in the face of crisis. they are a very resolute people.

having grown up in the country we're all so interested in now, mikhael definitely has a different perspective. he was about ten when the wall fell, and talking with him is always stimulating. half his life was spent "behind the iron curtain" and the other half was spent in a burgeoning democracy. it was interesting - considering all we've been reading about regaring ukraine and the orange revolution - to be able to speak to someone who is so staunchly opposed to yuschenko. it helped me understand how some people in ukraine would want to maintain the status quo and continue to their long relationship with russia. those are well-trodden paths and to many people they is a level of comfort associated with maintaining those ties.

i admit i've been kindof amused listening to everyone try to weigh in on this subject, especially considering most of us don't know jack shit about ukraine. i only know what i've run across while researching ukrainian adoption and most of that is legal stuff or related to the geography and history of the country. i haven't really done much research about their current political situation. so when the election thing happened i was captivated by what appeared to be unfolding and i devoured page after page of information online. but talking to mikhael gave me pause. now that i've got the story from both sides, it'll be all the more interesting to see how the story ends.

http://archives.annatopia.com/000985.html

[pinerow]

34. Great Post...!!!...different perspective...

nt

[Robbien]

35. What worries me most about this post

is all the talk about civil unrest.

Civil unrest is how BushCo goes about controlling a population. Get the people so busy fighting each other that they will not notice how the country's assets are being privatized.

They created civil unrest here in the US. They created it in Haiti, Venezuela, all over Africa and they are trying to pit the Sunnis against the Shiite in Iraq. Much easier to control a population if the population is busy fighting each other.

[pinerow]

36. Good point....!!

nt

[Tinoire]

37. Exactly! And it's what we did to Georgia, Yugoslavia ...

Same US players. Same scenario.

My hope on this one though is that the people on both sides are aware of this and went to efforts to avoid this. Remember how the US/UK press kept reporting before the second elections that people were at each others throats & on the verge of a civil war... The Ukrainians, the people, put that lie to shame. As if they very well understand the game and are determined not to fall into that trap.

When will the mask of these people be ripped off and their sordid games revealed?

[Robbien]

38. It is possible that in Iraq the people are on to this game

I believe that is what the push for the elections is all about, to officially pit the two sects against each other. When reading the alternative press one sees the Iraqii know what is happening, but I worry.

Hopefully the Iraqi election will not go as the global capitalists hope it does. Maybe then I will have more faith for Ukraine.

[Just Me]

48. So, true. Divide and conquer = neoCONimperialists' approach.

They do it EVERYWHERE!!!

[TankLV]

75. This worries me also.

[TankLV]

47. Yes - great post from a RUSSIAN who refuses to even speak Ukrainian

and who would naturally support RUSSIA. No great suprise there.

After the Ukraine got it's independence, russian butchers and carpetbaggers like your friend Mikhael would naturally support their russian heritage instead of the heritage and culrure and language of the people who's country it is, not the ones who came in mass after THEY massacurred MILLIONS of Ukrainians during the Great Ukrainian Famine that THEY instituted.

These self same "poor russians" were the one who until recently were allowed free reign over the Ukrainian people - FORBIDDING the use of the Ukrainian language, religious practices or study of their history or culture - IT WAS ALL FORBIDDEN - under the threat of death if anyone dared go against their russian masters.

Gee - I wonder why all his russian thugs now are complaining that the Ukrainian people are pushing for their natural birthright now.

I feal no pity for him or his russian thugs and bullies.

Read about how they intimidated, killed and bullied anyone including Yuschenko's supporters who tried to even just meet during the run-up to the first elections.

Read up on it - it will open your eyes.

[Igel]

82. This is so much nationalist twaddle.

The western Ukrainians haven't been at ease with the eastern ones for a long time. Different histories (since being under Pol./Lith./catholic rule) for centuries, different dialect base, different allegiances, etc. Papering over these differences by taking a purely west Ukrainian point of view is valid, but is certainly one sided.

Millions died in the Ukraine from famine because they had a drought and Stalin forced both collectivization (restructuring farms on the urban model) and played to the KPSS's base, urban dwellers. The 1917 rev. was an urban one; city-dwellers were the good guys, to the extent Stalin trusted them. Whether good ol' Uncle Joe killed a greater percentage of Ukrainians or Russians, I don't know. But he was Georgian. Viewing all of this as primarly some sort of ethnic struggle is probably wrong. In later years, there was Russian domination; but to read all the gripes about how the Ivans couldn't get a fair shake after about 1960 is to realize the USSR also had their own version of ethnic-based affirmative action.

Some of what you say is equivalent to saying that we should punish Mexican immigrants if they don't learn Spanish--refusing to learn the language and culture of the country they move to. Diversity, multilingual societies, etc., are good for the US, Europe, etc. But not for the Ukraine! (Specifically referring to the area, not the country.) I suppose Rusyn should be wiped out, too (a Carpathian Slavic dialect trying to claim language-level status with limited success). If language shift happens, it happens. Land doesn't have a language or rights--it's dirt and rock; people have language and culture. Instead of railing against people because their allegiance is to a government on the other side of some arbitrary line, maybe Kiev should try to earn it? But no, that wouldn't be in the spirit of Pora's "jackboot crushing a bug" poster, would it? Sort of like some conservatives concerned that all the Mexicans in the SW have mixed allegiances.

I've been of two minds concerning the Baltics--what do you do to preserve a culture and language (Estonian, Latvian, etc.) when much of your population is monolingual Russian? While most were there as overseers, or in exile, or whatever (this is a generation or two ago) many weren't "settled" there decades ago, they immigrated, some for better pay, part because that's where they were assigned in the raspredelenie. Just like in Kazakhstan. Or Yakutia. In the case of the Baltics, the languages aren't robust enough to survive--you need a minimum number of speakers and it needs to have an institutional purpose, so I can understand pushing Latvian and Estonian, even if I'm unsure as to its morality. But Ukrainian is big and sufficiently well established to survive in a bilingual society. It's no longer a victim.

In most cases, the Russians living in the eastern part (and in Kiev--I know many Kievan Russian-speakers who have a poor grasp of Ukrainian) didn't move there. They were born there; in many cases, their parents were born there. I'm not even sure that the borders were drawn with ethnicity in mind, so their ancestors may have been there for many centuries, back to Kievan Rus'. You can't portray them all as carpetbaggers. "Learn the new national language or leave"? Punishing them because they're Russian ... gee, isn't that collective punishment? Soft ethnic cleansing? Racism? Ethnocentrism? Good, "progressive" values?

And, my final word: revolutions scare me. Some revolutions work out great, some so-so, and some are horrible. You can't always predict how they go, and any thuggery is a mistake. So the Belorussian's supporters are in power for another election cycle. Yippee.

[podnoi]

83. Igil, Your post is a must read!!!!!

Excellent,
You said it so well.

All this nationalistic "True Ukraine" "Bad Ukraine" is bunk. Just an excuse for hatred. And yes about Revelolution... What really started me digging was when my home watched Yuschenko so quickly try to rile up the possability of a revolution. Such a violent thing and he seemed to be treating it like a game.

And at the same time Yanakovich was calling for calm, even telling his supporters that if they won by bloodshed that he refused to be President. But those statements were never covered by the media.

The entire issue is so clouded by nationalism and propaganda that it is destructive to their real chances at Democracy, and the "Orange Revolution" gave rise to much of this. I don't trust either of them. But given a choice between NeoCon type nationalism vs "more of the same" Eastern Ukraine naturally votes more of the same. But it is not what is prefferred.

[Paula Sims]

49. Let's look at Tinoire's reply from anther angle. . .

Tinore,
I appreciate the information you posted and your friend's honest assessment of what he feels is going on. However, let's look at it from a couple of angles.

First of all, as a Ukrainian (and yes, from the western part), I am biased. OK, it's out there, and I'm honest. However, for many centuries (we're talking since 1100-ish and the rule of Andrei Bogoliubsky), Russia has been trying to take over Ukraine, even going as far as taking Ukrainian history and saying that it was Russia that that accepted Christianity in 988 and Ukraine is nothing more than a state acting like small bratty child trying to have its way. The Ukrainian language was forbidden, worshiping in our own Churches was punishable by death -- heck, even my own family was sent to Siberia for hard labor because they were "an enemy of the people, of Mother Russia." The first thing that Hitler and Stalin did when they took totalitarian control was to get rid of the "Intellegencia" -- those that thought for themselves (sound familiar). Then there was Stalin's mass genocide in the 1930's in which over 7 million Ukrainians were starved to death because of the Collectivization efforts(some estimates are as high as 15 mil). This was a massive cover-up, even denied by the U.S. Government. In the early 1990's, when Ukraine proclaimed its independence (without bloodshed), it finally was out in the open as a separate country with its own language, culture, and history. Thus, when we see a candidate wanting to link back with Russia and making Russian the official language (rather than Ukrainian), justifiably that sends chills down our spines.

Now regarding your friend's concerns. Frankly, they are justified given the (mis)information going through that area. Yes, it's scary thinking that your life will change overnight and everything you have known will change and be forbidden. But I truly do not believe that will be the case. Ukrainians have lived through that and we can't see doing that to others. Yes, Ukrainian will be made the official language in politics and commerce, but isn't English the official language here? Just because Yuschenko wants to make Ukraine for Ukrainians, doesn't mean everyone else will be made miserable. Frankly, that seems like a right-winged argument: Just because we have separation of church and state means that we can't worship the way we want in our own homes. As we all know, we have that separation because we need a standard that must be followed by all in public and we can do as we wish in private. I also do not think there will be a Civil War because after all the fury calms down, cooler heads will prevail. If there is Civil War, well, if Russia intervenes, you will see some ugly stuff. Still, I don't think (hope) it will come to that.

Finally, regarding the Ukrainians' aiding the Nazis during WWII. Well, given the history of the people under Stalin, the devil we didn't know was better than the devil we knew-- UNTIL WE GOT TO KNOW THAT DEVIL. After the true plot of the Germans' was uncovered (Lebensraum, mass extermination of the Slavs), we did turn on both the Russians and the Germans. There are MANY accounts of Ukrainians helping not only the Jews but also others under Nazi and Russian persecution. And if you're looking at "who hooked up with the bad guys", the U.S. just LOVED "Uncle Joe" Stalin (Yalta conference -- which was held in UKRAINE) until he showed his true colors. And of course, let's not forget about Grand-pappy Prescott and his "contributions".

So what I'm seeing with this move of Yuschenko's is his wanting to limit what Yanukovich can do because Yanukovich will not concede or go quietly (he's already said the Supreme Court is useless). Right now, it's rhetoric and posturing. Whether or not it escalates above that is hard to tell.

But I will tell you, DON'T tick off a Ukrainian old lady -- it's ugly!!! :grr:


Paula

P.S. Thanks to everyone for their warm DU welcome. Hubby and I have been lurking and donating for a while now, so I decided to jump in the fray!

[NNN0LHI]

50. "so I decided to jump in the fray!"

Glad you did. I like to hear different perspectives. Welcome to DU to you and the old man.

Don

[Just Me]

51. Hey, Paula!!!! Thanks for sharing your voice!!!

:hi:

Glad to have yet another expressive and articulate voice on this board!!!

I wish I knew what the hell was going on over there. I, naturally, have concerns about people being manipulated as they are here. But, I do rejoice that "the people" of Ukraine are so involved. It's quite refreshing given the seeming apathy in my own country.

I hope the situation does not escalate into a civil bloodshed. But, if it does,...may "the people" win.

[Tinoire]

52. That's not my friend... It's a post I found in a blog representing

a different view, the one the US hasn't shown on TV. And no matter how distasteful it may be to some, both views are worthy of respect and consideration. 45% of the people in Ukraine voted for Yanukovych. Shall they remain voiceless?

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm neither Russian nor Ukranian. What I am is an American whose long been aware of what my government does & had long done in other countries.

Bush and Cheney pumped $65 million into "democratic" elections in Ukraine. Shall we pretend not to notice and believe that there are no strings attached to that money? Shall we overlook the shady things about Yushchenko just because we think we're getting rid of Russian interference? What I fear is that Ukraine has just jumped out of the fire and into the frying pan.

And no, I would never dare tick of a Ukrainian older lady! I remember them too well, and very fondly, from my 3 years of daily, 8-hour contact with them. They literally rapped students knuckles over verb conjugaisons but lol, I was always Milaya, Dorogaya, Molodetz, umnaya so my knuckles were spared ;) Those were women and men I loved and I well know, from them, the history and pain of Ukraine.

I sincerely believe what I told you about from the frying pan to the fire but I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Welcome to DU! Glad you chimed in.

[Just Me]

55. Your worldliness,...is priceless,...

,...and, it's tough trying to anticipate whether or not any of us,...are flying from a frying pan to the fire,...when we are at the bottom of the capitalist chain,...the pawns in that game.

It is awesome and gratifying and hope-filled,...that, so many voices can be expressed,...in one place,...without fear.

DU is a healthy place. Your voice makes it a vibrant space.

[Tinoire]

58. Coming from you, that's a great compliment

Thank you. From one pawn to another :)

[Just Me]

60. Oh, please, Tinoire,...

,...you make me blush. I am not "great" for acknowledging you. You are "great" for being so gracious!!!!

You humble me,...way too often,...my friend *LOL*.

Stop it *LOL*!!!!

[TankLV]

77. I do appreciate your views and information on the whole spectrum of

topics here.

This is certainly in no way shape or form a good situation.

Unfortunately, for once, this issue coudn't be any closer to home with me or my family.

I hope it gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction and they can move on.

But it is right to suspect EVERYTHING bunkerboy and his gang of thugs touch.

[Tinoire]

78. Tank, I never thought any differently!

I hope they'll manage to keep everything under control but I get the impression that there's a deliberate inflamming of passions going on behind the scenes.

What they've done with this meddling, these elections, is create the same situation there that we have in this country. Years of bitterness for the each side that's either convinced it really won or that it was stolen from them. And to that add the ethnic tensions we don't have in our own situation. It makes you want to scream! But the people over there, on both sides seem determined to avoid that.

I join you in wishing this gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction and they can move on. This whole thing is making me just not want to know anything anymore... to retreat back to happy days where you just didn't feel a need to look.

Bunkerboy and his gang of thugs - that about boils it down. We can't get rid of them soon enough.

Thank you for your insight into this. I appreciated it- appreciated reading all the various views. I hope you keep posting about this!

[TankLV]

80. Never trust anything even remotely connected to bunkerboy and the repukes.

That's the one thing we need to keep foremost in our thoughts, no matter what the situation is.

I, too, wish for the day to come where we won't have to look at everything so closely - but maybe that's where WE went wrong - thinking that we could "relax" and "not care so much".

I have a feeling that the founding fathers were too close to the truth for "comfort". That we must always be vivilant. That we can never be "comfortable". That we must always "fight the good fight".

Otherwise, the liberty and freedoms and comfort we have come to know will be gone quicker than we can imagine. They are currently slipping away.

At least NOBODY can say "my vote doesn't count" anymore!

[podnoi]

56. Paula, do you feel Yulia Timoshenko should be prime minister?

Do you think she will be a force for stability? How do you feel about her comments about taking Yanukovich supporters behind Barbed wire and burning them or hanging them by their scarves?

I know you are well meaning....

But do you hear what you say?

"Yes, it's scary thinking that your life will change overnight and everything you have known will change and be forbidden."

[Just Me]

59. Perhaps, YOU should share your wisdom and put into context,...

,...the assertions concerning Yulia Timoshenko.

What is your motive? Do you seek to unite or destroy?

What is your stake in this discussion?

What do you want?

[podnoi]

63. I have shared my perspective

Not sure about your questions... I don't think anyone on this board needs to answer such questions. The nature of this board is for being able to express opinion right? Do I need to meet a litmus test to freely express?

By the way I hope I did not sound down on the previous poster, just honestly asking the questions.

I am simply concerned about the situation having relatives there. I believe truth eluminates. No-one would more like to see people united than I. But I don't see Uniting taking place by the Orange Revolution. Do you?

You will have to go back in posts. I don't see a "good guy" and "bad guy". Yuschenko was prime minister under Kuchma before Yanakovich. Yulia was an "Oligarch" during Yuschenko's Prime minister days.
I don't know how to further "illuminate" the comments attributed to her. I think they are self explanitory.

[Just Me]

64. The "litmus test" thingy,...

,...kinda' tells me everything I need to know,...about your position.

You extrapolate anything that is "self-explanatory" according to your position? Maybe?

But, hey,...I reckon we all do that to some degree or other.

[Paula Sims]

65. "Yes, it's scary THINKING that your life will change overnight . . .

and everything you have known will change and be forbidden" was just part of my reply. I also said that I do not believe that will happen. I am not familiar with Yulia's comments, but if they come from a Russian source, I am somewhat suspicious. The Russians do not want Ukraine to have their freedom, to be a separate country. For a Ukrainian to believe a Russian source is like someone taking what Ann Coulter or Faux News said as the unvarnished truth.

Speaking of truth, I think it's somewhere in the middle. What we have here is a situation akin to the Blind Men and the Elephant parable; each person is reacting based on their own experience. In that way, perception is reality. What Yuschenko will do remains to be seen. Russian will still be spoken, just NOT the primary language. Then again, perhaps we might have a situation similar to Quebec in Canada. Who knows? What I do know is having a leader saying that the primary language will be that of another country is another step toward final Russification of Ukraine. And the example earlier stated that less that 50% do not consider Ukrainian to be their primary language (or even speak the language) is exactly the reason why Ukrainian must be spoken, must be kept alive. When the language dies, the culture or the people cannot be far behind. The Irish are finding that out and are enforcing the use of Gaelic (according to a friend who was raised in Ireland).

As I said, we need to wait and see. We thought that Kravchuk or Kuchma would look out for the Ukrainian people and we were wrong. And having heard the plans Yanukovich had scared us, so we took what we perceived the lesser of the two evils.

And Tinoire, forgive me. I meant no disrespect. I also misread your post.

Thank you all for opening my eyes to all points of view, not just on this topic (I'll admit, I'm biased), but on all postings. I was a 'pub until the love of a good man (my husband) showed me the light.


Paula

P.S. I didn't mean that I am an old Ukrainian lady (I'll be 40 next year), but I did learn well from my dearly departed Grandmother! :D

[podnoi]

66. Thanks for your explaination

Those quotes were on Ukrainian TV reported by a relative. My relatives also had many friends that were removed from voting this last vote.

Just wondering, did you know that Yanukovich also supported Ukrainian for primary language? He just advocated Russian language being officially recognized as the secondary language. Now in that case it would be truly like Quebec... You see why those in the East get concerned about Yuschenko? He seems to be little interested in finding ways to accomodate everyone. There is a fixation on the desires of the west side of the country at the expense of the east.

Yuschenko could easily bring the nation together by simply providing some guarantees to the east. It is not about Russia as the propaganda suggests. The east is concerned about their welfare and feels that this is a nationalist movement. Do we believe in Democracy or not? Why don't Yuschenko supporters pressure him to be more representative? Why does he make the most antagonist decisions?

[Tinoire]

71. Lol Paula!

I neither saw nor felt ANY disrespect from your post and indeed appreciated it!

In post 52, I welcomed you here and trust me, these days that's not something I do lightly. I am very happy to hear your perspective because I think all voices should be represented and your posts, even though based on your opinion (something which goes for all of us), reek of trying to be fair. Nothing to firgive at all lol. How do you say "Pozhalusta, ne za shta" in Ukrainian?

Besides, I love the way you put certain things

For a Ukrainian to believe a Russian source is like someone taking what Ann Coulter or Faux News said as the unvarnished truth.

I KNOW exactly what you mean! If Fox news tells me the sky is blue, I have to check 3 sources before believing them! The Russians are masters at propaganda though nothing like the US. I wish I could remember, maybe you will, the name of a famous Russian politician who one of the first to come to the US and marvelled, absolutely marvelled at very effective job the US media did in keeping people lulled in intellectual oblivion. I have it marked in an old book but have no idea which one! (House is floor to celing books)

We have no choice now but to wait and see. I really pray what we see is GOOD!

Thanks lol for the clarification about your age- not that it mattered! And your husband? Your husband is a good man ;) Poka :hi: and welcome to DU once again

[TankLV]

76. Xrystos Razhdietchya!

You have stated much more clearly and unemotionally what I have tried to convey.

Thank you.

My family was from Kymnyat - which is now gone - it was directly west of Kiev - was obliterated from the maps during the Crimean War.

[Paula Sims]

86. Let's all step back for a moment

As I've posted in other threads, the iron cross group (UNA-UNCO) is a small splinter group that is more anti-Yanukovich thank pro-Yuschenko (I've called friends in Ukraine and that was their take on it). Yes, visions of 1929 Germany did pop into my head, but at least we know the signs. Remember the old phrase -- "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". How many Skinheads, KKK members, and log cabin Republicans support the Neocons? That doesn't mean the Neocons will welcome them into the camp. If Yuschenko does one thing to turn against the interests of the Ukrainian people (ALL the Ukrainian people) in favor of self gratification (or does a Kuchma and decides to behead reporters), I'm rushing to the front of the line demanding a change. Right now, we had to get out the old regime. Let's see what the new one does.

Regarding the "influence" of Bush-co and the money. Again, we need to remember the Ukrainian mentality -- if you give, I'm taking! I doubt there will be quid-pro-quo or that Yuschenko will be Bush's puppet. As far as Mrs. Yuschenko, just substitute the words "Hillary Clinton" into the sentences --- takes on another tone, doesn't it?

Frankly, we don't know what will happen. Yes, it's messy now and everyone will report and react based on their sphere of knowledge and information (blind men and the elephant). Ukrainians have been promised so much from so many evil-doers (Stalin, Hitler, Kravchuk, Kuchma) that they don't know whom to trust. What they DO know is that the devil they had wasn't working out so they're willing to try someone else. Sound familiar? Politicians are a different breed and we elect based on what sounds good to us and what we choose to see and emphasize (let's be honest here) about their past. When they get into office, it's a totally different game.

The IMPORTANT part here is that the majority of Ukrainians are united FOR AN INDEPENDENT UKRAINE. That is is true miracle here. We've had splits that would make the Red/Blue state thing look like a minor family tiff. So as the New Year approaches, I which my fellow countrymen much health, joy, success, and above all, a free and prosperous Ukraine!

Paula

Tank -- thanks for the greeting. For those that do not speak transliterated Ukrainian, Tank wished me a Merry Christmas (translated as Christ is Born). The reply is SLAVITE YOHO(may He be Glorified!). Also for those of the Old Calendar tradition, our Christmas is Jan 7 -- talk about after Christmas bargains!!!

:headbang:

[GiovanniC]

22. Something Smells Bad in Ukraine

Very bad.

The main problem here and pretty much everywhere else you go is that everyone wants to separate these two -- one candidate is "good" and the other candidate is "bad". Newsflash people... they're BOTH bad. I am amazed at how many people here are suddenly major experts on Ukrainian history, politics, and culture -- yet that does not negate the fact that while one Viktor defrauded the Ukrainian voters with massive voter fraud a la Bushco, the other Viktor was defrauding the Ukrainian voters with massive voter fraud and a propoganda campaign engineered by Bush & Pals.

In other words, this isn't like Luke Skywalker versus Darth Vader... it's more like Darth Vader versus Dr. Doom.

[Robbien]

25. Yes. The people of Ukraine lose no matter who wins the election

There is no happy outcome here. No fight for democracy.

It was a lose lose situation from the start.

[genieroze]

26. Darth Vader versus Dr. Doom., at least THEY got to choose their

monster. Then again, maybe not.

[InvisibleBallots]

23. Ukranians putting Americans to shame

!

[Just Me]

24. Hmmmm,...hope this situation doesn't get out of control.

I'd hate to see this escalate into a full-scale civil war.

I really do not know what to make of all the goings on in Ukraine. There's so much behind the curtain that is unseen.

[jman0]

70. don't believe the hype

There's definatley shadowy figures operating here.
Some interesting articles here:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG412A.html
It sounds like the nazi types are in Yushchenko's camp, some liberal huh?

[cambie]

79. Mob action

We would have seen it here quick enough, say if the wrong person had won the election. By the way, mob action is not the same thing as Democracy.

[TankLV]

81. And in this case - it's DEMOCRACY IN ACTION, not "mob action".

http://www.orangeukraine.squarespace.com/