Israel Charges 'Jesus Box' Relics Ring (Reuters)

[truthpusher]

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11965-3980807,00.html

Israel Charges 'Jesus Box' Relics Ring

30/12/2004

Reuters

Israeli prosecutors charged four antiquities dealers with forging a slew of biblical artefacts including a "Jesus box" that had been claimed as proof of Christianity's origins.

"Had they pulled off this fraud, they would have succeeded in changing the history of the Jewish and Christian people," said Israeli police spokesman Gil Kleiman on Wednesday.

snip...

The most notorious case was an ossuary, or ancient burial box, purported to contain the bones of Jesus' brother James.

snip...

But Israel's Antiquities Authority last year declared that the inscription on the box - "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" - had been faked.

more...

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11965-3980807,00.html

[The Sushi Bandit]

1. Frickin fundies will belive anything they are told

by their church and by bush

[truthpusher]

4. The 'Jesus Box' was actually an item that shook up the Fundies...

...the inscription implied that Jesus had a brother. I remember when this was initially reported...

photo:



...It was very intriguing and potentially upsetting for the Fundies...I was convinced myself. Read this story from CNN (October 2002):

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/

[InvisibleBallots]

6. not really

The "Jesus Box" controversy shook up Jewish fundamentalists, and perhaps some Catholic fundamentalists, and was welcome by Protestant and Muslim fundamentalists.

The "Jesus Box" story must be understood in light of the last 15 years of fighting over the Dead Sea Scrolls. Read up on David Eisenmann's work on DSS to get the recent backstory.

Or, just blame the Christians, why not?

[truthpusher]

7. The reaction was mostly based on disproving the assumption...

...that the relic proved that Jesus had a brother. As I recall the Fundies as well as many other groups wanted to make sure right away that this did not mean that Mary necessarily gave birth to another child. here are a couple of articles and a quote:


Christianity Today:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/141/11.0.html

Catholic.com:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Burial_Box_of_St_James_Found.asp

Some non-Catholics were quick to tout the box as evidence against the perpetual virginity of Mary, however this does not follow. The ossuary identifies its James as the son of Joseph and the brother of Jesus, it does not identify him as the son-much less the biological son-of Mary. The only point that Catholic doctrine has defined regarding the "brethren of the Lord" is that they are not biological children of Mary.

[InvisibleBallots]

11. Protestants have never denied that Jesus had a brother

And Muslims greatly identify with James the brother of Jesus and his theology. Catholics of course, deny that Jesus had a brother, and the Israeli Antiquities Authority has its own agenda as well.

[InvisibleBallots]

17. you own link shows the Protestants as quite happy with the Jesus Box

But hey, why let facts get in the way of the knee-jerk bigotry against Catholics and Christians on DU? Fundies got their panties in a twist because the Jesus box, er, wait, why would the fundies get upset? Fundies have never claimed Jesus didn't have a brother or that Mary had children after Jesus. In fact, they seem positively delighted, according to your own link:


Stunning New Evidence that Jesus Lived

Pilgrims who travel to Israel to walk where Jesus walked may soon have something new to connect them with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.

Scholars have recently examined a box carved out of soft limestone, made to hold the bones of a first-century Jew. On its side is carved an Aramaic inscription, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

The bone box, known as an ossuary, is in the hands of a private collector in Jerusalem. But its existence, revealed in a news conference today in Washington, D.C., has already generated a buzz among archaeologists and biblical scholars.

The news conference was convened by Biblical Archaeological Review, which reports "an archaeological landmark" in its November-December issue. The ossuary was not uncovered in an archaeological excavation, but apparently surfaced on the antiquities market. This means that potentially important evidence for evaluating the box is missing.

But experts consulted by BAR and Christianity Today seem satisfied that it really is a 2,000-year old artifact. BAR editor Hershel Shanks asked for an analysis by the Geological Survey of Israel. Retired Wheaton College professor John McRay, author of Archaelogy and the New Testament, says the survey's lab report was convincing. "Six different pieces of the patina of the stone were looked at through that laboratory," he said. "It was verified, by people who are not Christians, that the date on this is first century and there is no evidence of recent disturbances of the box."

[truthpusher]

22. In your first response to this post you mentioned blame...

...what do you mean by blame the Christians? I don't know what I could be blaming them for here? When I said "shook up the Fundies", I said that based on my own recollection of the reaction to this story when it came out. You can not deny that there was a lot of pointed response to this item from religious circles. Not only Fundamentalist Christian types responded, but scholarly types, mainstream media and more mainstream Christian media.

I live in Parker Colorado and drive to Colorado Springs regularly. Whenever I go to the Springs I dial in on all of the Christian talk shows to hear whats going on. I remember when this story hit, everybody was talking about it. The more Fundamentalist types were either calling it a hoax or explaining the positives that this might prove and explaining away any negatives. I found it especially interesting to hear a hint of how individuals in the Christian Fundamentalist community might act if there ever was any indisputable evidence that might contradict their belief system. Either way I could care less about how they believe or what they believe, so long as it doesn't effect me.

By the way, I presented those articles, because they expressed what I was hearing at the time. You act as though you made some great discovery in comparing what the articles said to what I said. I gave them as examples of what people were talking about of which I have no opinion one way or the other.

[InvisibleBallots]

25. sorry

I guess my knees can jerk as quickly as anyone else's. The articles are great, I have an interest in the subject, thanks for posting them.

It just drives me crazy to see half-educated people making up any shit, or repeating any urban legend they read, as long as it reflects badly on Christians or whichever group of people they hate. I'm not sure which pisses me off more - the bigotry, or the fast-and-loose handling of the truth. "Wicca is the oldest religion on earth. The Pope threw out all of Jesus' real Gospels during the Council of Trent in 300 AD under Constantine", and my all time favorite, "Jesus was a fictional character and also married to Mary Magdalene" etc, etc.

Like you, I don't really have a horse in this race either.

[Trajan]

8. No .. dont blame Christians ....

They have never done anything dishonest in the cause of their religion ....

Ever .....

[InvisibleBallots]

10. yes, Christians are the only ones that lie

No other religous groups lie, and neither do politicians, right?

[Porcupine]

16. Nah, Just lies heard on MSM are mostly Christian...

followed by Jewish lies and Muslim lies in proportion with their exposure by CNN, Fox et al.

Sometimes you can hear a Hindu lie on the BBC but to hear a Buddhist lie you have to look into the alternative press.;-)

I would point out that many avowed "Christians" have lied repeatedly about Iraq and then used their lies as an excuse for war and genocide. "Christian" is rapidly earning a bad name to the majority of the non-christian world.

[Bo]

14. Not only wacko fundies but Catholics

were very shaken up. we will never know the truth.

[InvisibleBallots]

19. Fundies were delighted, not shook up

Oops

[VegasWolf]

2. My "jesus box" is for sale on ebay. Certificate of Authenticity included. n/

[CO Liberal]

9. I Have a Jesus Shoe Box

No, wait. That's a picture of Buster Brown....

:-)

[alfredo]

18. Would an X Box be considered a

Jesus Box?

[jdj]

35. too funny

only if the virgin mary's face shows up on the screen intermittenly.

[alfredo]

37. I'd be more impressed if Noam Chomsky's face would

appear. At least we know he exists.

[Trajan]

3. Shhhhhhh ....

You are bound to wake the ossuary apologists ....

[truthpusher]

5. CNN Story from October 2002...

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/

[InvisibleBallots]

20. here's how it was "debunked"

Note - the website sounds wacky, but they are just reposting the conclusions of:

Prof. Yuval Goren
Department of Archaeology and Ancient Eastern Cultures
and the Laboratory for Comparative Microarchaeology,
Tel Aviv University



A. The ossuary is authentic, based on its typology and patination. The accumulation of rock varnish is considered a very lengthy process. It appears that the deposition of the patina was also considerably prolonged.

B. The inscription was engraved (or at least, completely cleaned) in modern times.

C. The inscription coating is not natural. It was made by grinding and dissolving chalk in hot water (possibly the powder resulting from the newly carved inscription), and spilling the paste onto the inscription and surrounding area, in order to blur the freshly engraved signs.


http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Goren_report.htm

Notice the hedging in B, and the assumption of purposeful deception in C. Again, I doubt this thing is authentic, but you simply cannot trust much of this sort of research, since it has major political/religious implications to various groups, and, well, people lie.

[truthpusher]

24. Thanks for the article...by the way you seem to know a bit about...

...this topic. Is it unusual for the Israeli government to crack down on antiques forgers?

[InvisibleBallots]

26. As far as I know, this is the first time

The IAA and the Vatican hate competition.

[truthpusher]

27. Thanks, what do you think about the police spokesman's comment?

'"Had they pulled off this fraud, they would have succeeded in changing the history of the Jewish and Christian people," said Israeli police spokesman Gil Kleiman on Wednesday.'

What do you think was meant by this? Based on the articles I posted in my other thread and some of the comments you made, this should have made no difference whatsoever.

[InvisibleBallots]

28. he is lying, or at least being disingenous

Basically, Israel has a whole host of their archaologists who have shown the entire history of "ancient Israel" is likely mythology. The idea that an ancient "King David and Solomon" were great leaders seems false, recent discoveries have shown that any kings at the time were vassals of the Pharoah. Same with Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem - that's why the "Temple Instruction" appeared, just in time.

No religious and political group likes it when their history is questioned - take a look at the Vatican response to Da Vinci Code - and for Israel is has some complicated political ramifications as well. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were illegally photographed and spirited out of the hands of the IAA, and David Eisenmann published them, it caused quite the controversey, and what's happening now is a part of it.

The police officer is being disingenous - these artifacts would not have "changed" the history of the Jewish and Christian people - they in fact were offered as evidence of the traditional history. Israel and the Vatican do not want the James Ossuary to be authentic, the Muslims do, the Protestants don't care. They all wanted the Temple Instructions to be authentic.

It's a complicated situation, and I certainly don't know all the facts. I'm sure something I wrote in this post is inaccurate, but this is my best guess about what's going on right now.

[Caria]

34. Yes, ancient artifact with modern, fake inscription added

I saw the "James ossuary" on display in Toronto, and what they did is really pretty obvious. I understand how people could be fooled by the published photographs, but I do not think anyone who saw the actual object in good light could remain fooled.

These people were STEALING artifacts (and making & marketing fakes) for at least two decades. They belong in prison.

For a good overview: http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/IARC/cwoc/issue11/israel.htm

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

12. Also debunked...

...a few weeks ago by 60 Minutes. One of the antiques dealers in Israel has been under investigation over several purported "antiques". It was found that the addition of the "brother of Jesus" to the ossuary was added adventiously (after its creation) and they found all kinds of forensic type of substances at the dealers home/shop that he used to add "old dirt" to the ossuary to spoof the carbon dating process.

"In other words, "Brother of Jesus" may have been added by a forger."
<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/17/60minutes/main661815.shtml>

[InvisibleBallots]

15. eh

My personal speculation is that the box is real, the inscription is fake. That's what the IAA says as well. But I wouldn't trust them anymore than I trust the Vatican when it comes to "proving" their version of ancient history. So, the IAA declares it "debunked" and everyone is supposed to trust them.

[whalerider55]

13. Didn't National Lampoon....

Have a story in the seventies that was purported to have been the chronicles of Jesus' younger brother (Mom always liked you best)...

Whalerider55

[Thor_MN]

21. Breaking News. Grilled cheese portait proven to actually be likeness of

of Mary's lesser known, skanky sister Judy. Judy was believed to date several of the apostles, at times, dating more than one at the same time.

[sonicx]

23. I thought Jesus was a Dude?!?!

sorry, i'm sick. :evilgrin:

[InvisibleBallots]

33. box = vagina

ha ha ha you are quite the wit sonicx!

[dread]

29. Does this mean that my knuckle bone

of St. Pedophilia is a fake too? Woe is me.

[InvisibleBallots]

32. welcome to DU, dread

you'll fit right in

[emad]

30. See also today's Independent story:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=596781

[emad]

31. Time to arrest cunning Islamic antiquities con artist David Khalili?

http://www.bu.edu/bridge/archive/2003/02-07/khalili.htm

[InvisibleBallots]

36. have some of his artifacts been faked?

I'm not as familiar with Islamic artifacts - what's the story here?

[emad]

38. An old crook, bankrolled by the Maktoums of Dubai, has been

passing off fake Islamic antiquities for the last 20 years and getting fat on it.

10 years ago he got busted in London for a series of scams linked to the Aga Khan (spiritual leader of the Ismaili sect). Did a plea bargain, paid a huge fine and carried on blithely churning out more 9th/10th century artefacts that the Sultan of Brunei's brother snapped up to display in one of his numerous palaces.....

[emad]

39. Forgers 'tried to rewrite biblical history' : Guardian today

Forgers 'tried to rewrite biblical history'

Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Friday December 31, 2004
The Guardian


Scam jar... an 8th century BC jar with forged scripts. Photo: Oded Balilty/AP

Hundreds of biblical artefacts in museums all over the world could be fakes, it has emerged after Israeli investigators uncovered what they claim is a sophisticated forgery ring.
Four men have been charged with the faking of some of the most important biblical discoveries in recent years.

The artefacts in question include an ossuary which was believed to contain the bones of James, the brother of Jesus, and a tablet with a written inscription by a Jewish king in the ninth century before Christ.

The indictment against the men in Jerusalem says: "During the last 20 years many archaeological items were sold, or an attempt was made to sell them, in Israel and in the world, that were not actually antiques. These items, many of them of great scientific, religious, sentimental, political and economic value, were created specifically with intent to defraud."

The forgers not only conned buyers out of of millions of dollars, said officials of the Israel Antiquities Authority, but also damaged the science of archaeology, casting doubt on the authenticity of every artefact not uncovered in an authorised dig.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1381272,00.html