Scalia: Church-state separation didn't protect Jews in Holocaust

[kskiska]

WASHINGTON (ABP)—The man who may be the next chief justice of the United States reportedly gave a speech in which he suggested church-state separation did nothing to prevent the Holocaust.

At a conference in November on religious freedom, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia offered a lengthy critique of the idea that the framers of the Constitution supported strict separation between church and state. According to accounts of the speech from the Associated Press and the Jerusalem Post, he then pointed to episodes of American history that he said proved the government has always supported religion.

"There is something wrong with the principle of neutrality (toward religion by government)," Scalia said, according to the Jerusalem newspaper. The kind of neutrality the framers intended, he continued, "is not neutrality between religiousness and non-religiousness; it is between denominations of religion."

Scalia contrasted that with the reticence of modern-day European leaders to discuss God or religion in public life. "You will not hear the word 'God' cross the lips of a French premier or an Italian head of state," Scalia said. "But that has never been the American way."

more…
http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=2805

[purduejake]

1. Didn't Hitler gain power by manipulating religion?

WTF is Scalia talking about?!?

[kskiska]

2. Further down:

(snip)

Hartmann noted that, in actuality, church and state were closely wed in Nazi Germany, with German dictator Adolph Hitler going so far as to unite all German Protestant denominations into one government-controlled "Reich Church" and to appoint a "Reichsbishop," Lutheran pastor Ludwig Müller, to head the entity. Müller, like Hitler, committed suicide at the end of the war.

[aquart]

18. Any hope Scalia will?

[papau]

36. "Scalia has an extraordinary way of not letting facts confound hisargument

"Scalia has an extraordinary way of not letting facts confound his arguments, but this time he's gone completely over the top by suggesting that a separation of church and state facilitated the Holocaust," Hartmann wrote.


Hartmann noted that, in actuality, church and state were closely wed in Nazi Germany, with German dictator Adolph Hitler going so far as to unite all German Protestant denominations into one government-controlled "Reich Church" and to appoint a "Reichsbishop," Lutheran pastor Ludwig Müller, to head the entity. Müller, like Hitler, committed suicide at the end of the war.

[htuttle]

3. Scalia either flunked history class...

...or he's just plain lying.

I'm betting he's just lying his ass off again.

[74dodgedart]

4. From the article

"Hartmann noted that, in actuality, church and state were closely wed in Nazi Germany, with German dictator Adolph Hitler going so far as to unite all German Protestant denominations into one government-controlled "Reich Church" and to appoint a "Reichsbishop," Lutheran pastor Ludwig Müller, to head the entity. Müller, like Hitler, committed suicide at the end of the war."

Scalia is off the deep end...

[jdj]

79. Baptist Standard???

what the hell is that?

[tk2kewl]

28. Scalia need to focus on separation of head and ass

imho

[driver8]

45. Now that's funny!! n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

5. There was no church/state separation in Nazi Germany.

[shance]

27. THANK YOU.

Frightening that one of our own Supreme Court Justices will distort the truth like that.

[Demeter]

42. SOP: Standard Operating Procedure

Supreme Court distorts truth under Bush, Greenspan forgets everything he ever knew (and told Clinton) under Bush, Democratic party decides to abandon its progressive principles under Bush; the man's a big black hole for reality and principle!

[ElectroPrincess]

61. I kid you not ... he's employed demented logic for so long

that he's believing his own propaganda. And why not? If you have power you can be honored as "a real character" ... "a little eccentric" ... "quoted out of context" instead of the TRUTH =

He's crazier than bat shit and no longer competent to serve as a Supreme Court Justice, much less their leader.

YIKES! Our whole damn country will go MAD if he's declared Chief Justice.

[Annus Horribilis]

6. The "Reich Church"

Hartmann noted that, in actuality, church and state were closely wed in Nazi Germany, with German dictator Adolph Hitler going so far as to unite all German Protestant denominations into one government-controlled "Reich Church" and to appoint a "Reichsbishop," Lutheran pastor Ludwig Müller, to head the entity. Müller, like Hitler, committed suicide at the end of the war.

Scalia is an idiot, but Hartmann isn't making sense either. The "Reich Church" was created by the Nazi party and state. It wasn't an independent institution like churches today. The church basically was another arm of the Nazis.

[Canuckistanian]

33. Sound familiar? n/t

[Mokito]

51. Isn't that what it says?

with German dictator Adolph Hitler going so far as to unite all German Protestant denominations into one government-controlled "Reich Church"

[Igel]

65. Government control doesn't mean church + state union.

USSR controlled the Orthodox church (and in spite of Stalin's sucking up to the church during the war, the USSR wasn't religious). Unite the churches, control them, and that's one less institution to oppose you.

But don't I remember Hitler Youth songs that declared they were Teutons and had no use for Christ? And all this Germanic pre-Christian religion stuff that I keep hearing ascribed to Hitler and friends?

on edit: I wish Hartman had said something that would have decided the matter in my mind.

[FrankBooth]

7. It also didn't protect any Clergy who spoke out

against Hitler's murderous actions. What utter nonsense...he can't be serious.

[Walt Starr]

8. Man, what an idiot!

The man made an unfounded charge based upon a lie! Church and State were INTERLOCKED in Nazi Germany!!!!

[Pirate Smile]

9. Geez, here I thought it was both neutrality between religiousness and

non-religiousness AND neutrality between denominations.

Someone, contact the law schools - they are teaching it wrong.

These guys are so friggin scary but thanks for the ammo Tony, like we needed more. Keep talking.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. no denomination

is a denomination, its the 'empty denomination'. Scalia is an idiot. He invented a history of nazi germany for rhetorical reasons and then went on to declare that nonbelievers (the empty denomination) are not protected by separation of church and state.

If by "denomination" Scalia means branch of christianity, then he would also have to argue that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc are not protected by separation of church and state, otherwise he ends up with the absurd conclusion that Hinduism is a denomination of Christianity. If by "denomination" he really means 'distinct set of religious beliefs' then of course atheism, agnosticism, that pesky deism that the supposedly ultra-religious FOUNDING FATHERS for the most part seemed to subscribe to, and even apathy as in I couldn't care less are all denominations protected by separation.

Actually he is probably not an idiot, more likely he is a lying sack of shit and an evil ass-monkey. Like this is news.

[Pirate Smile]

70. I just figured he meant any religious denomination but I

may be giving him too much credit.

[dutchtreat]

10. Scalia's speech: Good news and Bad news

What's good about what Antonin the Great said? At least he recognizes that the Holocaust really happened. Many of his followers don't. What's bad about what the Father Figure of Clarence Thomas said? Everything else. We're building up to an attempt to do away with, or at the very least reinterpret through congressional action, the separation of religion and politics. Scalia is the point man for St. George. Since our president (well, is "our" appropriate?) considers himself to have been chosen by god for the task of presiding, we're soon going to be looking at a theocracy.

[Justitia]

44. Welcome to DU dutchtreat!

Hi there dutchtreat.

I see from your profile you are a retired educator. I'm guessing Fat Tony missed classes like yours in school. I wonder how we ended up with such a belligerent idiot on our "revered court".

And to think, he dares to talk about causes of the holocaust to the Jerusalem Post - what chutzpah! The arrogance is stunning.

Anyway, welcome to DU, and many happy postings!

:hi:

[Sandpiper]

11. As usual, Scalia doesn't let the facts get in the way of his fantasy world

It stands to reason that separation of church and state didn't protect the Jews in Nazi Germany. THERE WASN'T ANY!!!


<snip>

Article 1 of the "Decree concerning the Constitution of the German Protestant Church, of 14 July 1933," signed by Adolf Hitler himself, merged the German Protestant Church into the Reich, and gave the Reich the legal authority to ordain priests.

Article Three provides absolute assurance to the new state church that the Reich will fund it, even if that requires going to Hitler's cabinet. It opens: "Should the competent agencies of a State Church refuse to include assessments of the German Protestant Church in their budget, the appropriate State Government will cause the expenditures to be included in the budget upon request of the Reich Cabinet."

That new state-sponsored German church's constitution opens: "At a time in which our German people are experiencing a great historical new era through the grace of God," the new German state church "federates into a solemn league all denominations that stem from the Reformation and stand equally legitimately side by side, and thereby bears witness to: 'One Body and One Spirit, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of All of Us, who is Above All, and Through All, and In All.'"

Section Four, Article Five of he new constitution further established a head for the new German state-church with the title of Reich Bishop. Hitler quickly filled the job with a Lutheran pastor, Ludwig Müller, who held the position until he committed suicide at the end of the war.

<snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1202-33.htm

[struggle4progress]

19. Scalia is either ignorant of history or dishonest about it.

The Barmen Declaration, 1934, was a call to resistance against the theological claims of the Nazi state. Almost immediately after Hitler's seizure of power in 1933, Protestant Christians faced pressure to "aryanize" the Church, expel Jewish Christians from the ordained ministry and adopt the Nazi "Führer Principle" as the organizing principle of church government. In general, the churches succumbed to these pressures, and some Christians embraced them willingly. The pro-Nazi "German Christian" movement became a force in the church. They glorified Adolf Hitler as a "German prophet" and preached that racial consciousness was a source of revelation alongside the Bible. <snip>
http://www.ucc.org/faith/barmen.htm

Theological Declaration of Barmen

I. An Appeal to the Evangelical Congregations and Christians in Germany

8.01 The Confessional Synod of the German Evangelical Church met in Barmen, May 29-31, 1934 ... Their intention was .. to withstand in faith and unanimity the destruction of the Confession of Faith, and thus of the Evangelical Church in Germany. In opposition to attempts to establish the unity of the German Evangelical Church by means of false doctrine, by the use of force and insincere practices, the Confessional Synod insists that the unity of the Evangelical Churches in Germany can come only from the Word of God ...

8.03 Be not deceived by loose talk, as if we meant to oppose the unity of the German nation! Do not listen to the seducers who pervert our intentions, as if we wanted to break up the unity of the German Evangelical Church or to forsake the Confessions of the Fathers!

8.04 ... If you find that we are speaking contrary to Scripture, then do not listen to us! But if you find that we are taking our stand upon Scripture, then let no fear or temptation keep you from treading with us the path of faith and obedience to the Word of God ...

II. Theological Declaration Concerning the Present Situation of the German Evangelical Church

8.05 According to the opening words of its constitution of July 11, 1933, the German Evangelical Church is a federation of Confessional Churches that grew our of the Reformation and that enjoy equal rights. The theological basis for the unification of these Churches is laid down in Article 1 and Article 2(1) of the constitution of the German Evangelical Church that was recognized by the Reich Government on July 14, 1933 ...

8.07 We publicly declare before all evangelical Churches in Germany that what they hold in common in this Confession is grievously imperiled, and with it the unity of the German Evangelical Church. It is threatened by the teaching methods and actions of the ruling Church party of the "German Christians" and of the Church administration carried on by them. These have become more and more apparent during the first year of the existence of the German Evangelical Church. This threat consists in the fact that the theological basis, in which the German Evangelical Church is united, has been continually and systematically thwarted and rendered ineffective by alien principles, on the part of the leaders and spokesmen of the "German Christians" as well as on the part of the Church administration. When these principles are held to be valid, then, according to all the Confessions in force among us, the Church ceases to be the Church and th German Evangelical Church, as a federation of Confessional Churches, becomes intrinsically impossible.

8.08 ... Precisely because we want to be and to remain faithful to our various Confessions, we may not keep silent, since we believe that we have been given a common message to utter in a time of common need and temptation ...

8.12 We reject the false doctrine, as though the church could and would have to acknowledge as a source of its proclamation, apart from and besides this one Word of God, still other events and powers, figures and truths, as God's revelation ...

8.15 We reject the false doctrine, as though there were areas of our life in which we would not belong to Jesus Christ, but to other lords--areas in which we would not need justification and sanctification through him ...

8.21 We reject the false doctrine, as though the Church, apart from this ministry, could and were permitted to give itself, or allow to be given to it, special leaders vested with ruling powers ...

8.24 We reject the false doctrine, as though the Church, over and beyond its special commission, should and could appropriate the characteristics, the tasks, and the dignity of the State, thus itself becoming an organ of the State ...

8.27 We reject the false doctrine, as though the Church in human arrogance could place the Word and work of the Lord in the service of any arbitrarily chosen desires, purposes, and plans ...

From: The Church's Confession Under Hitler by Arthur C. Cochrane.
Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1962, pp. 237-242.

http://www.creeds.net/reformed/barmen.htm

[hollowdweller]

64. I thought that it was their race not their religion that Hitler hated?

[struggle4progress]

12. The US of A didn't protect Jews in the Holocaust either, and ...

... that was about twenty-five years before the famous 1963 prayer case SCHOOL DISTRICT OF ABINGTON TOWNSHIP, PENNSYLVANIA, ET AL. v. SCHEMPP ET AL.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. Someone hit that man in the head with Plymouth Rock

please!

[Just Me]

14. If the man knew more about the evolution of fascism, he'd resign,...

,...and prolly commit suicide.

[shraby]

I'm beginning to wonder about Scalia's

mental competency. Do you suppose he's getting senile?

[struggle4progress]

21. Nope. I think he's a lyin shill for the fascists. eom

[aquart]

20. It doesn't hurt to hope.

[daleo]

15. Will he include Odin, Krishna, Goddess, etc. as denominations?

Something tells me he only has Christian denominations in mind here.

I can't wait to see a list of commandments from the Delphic Oracle on a statue at the Supreme Court.

[lutherj]

16. Thom Hartmann wrote a detailed critique of this: link

Scalia To Synagogue - Jews Are Safer With Christians In Charge

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1202-33.htm

"In some distant place, Adolf Hitler and Bishop Müller must be smiling at Scalia's encouragement of the growing conflation of church and state in America. It's exactly what they worked so hard to achieve, and what helped make their horrors possible."

[lumpy]

17. Scalia

has no respect for the US Constitution apparentely. Separation of church and state is our heritage, it is imperitive that we preserve our rights given to us through the WISE men who created the Constitution. Scalia is a poor excuse to be considered for chief justice.

[Igel]

66. So true. When I was in a church

I wanted the government out of it. I believed the government had no business saying how the church ran its affairs. The first amendment is there for a reason.

[Kahuna]

22. Jesus apparently believed in the separation because he said...

give unto Ceaser what belongs to Ceaser, give unto God what belongs to God. He also said that man cannot serve God and man. So, apparently Jesus was wise enough to realize the folly of trying to merge church and state doctrines.

[purduejake]

25. I thank you for your insight, but...

I'm sure somebody can pull something out of the bible to argue with you. The bible can be used to support just about any point of view.

[Demeter]

43. Only If YOu Confuse the Old Testament, New Testament, and Paul's Letters

If I had to choose among them, I'd stick with the NEW testament as having the closest interpretation of the Christ's teachings. Paul has a lot to answer for!

[purduejake]

47. You know more about it than me.

So I won't argue with your last statement. I was only talking from my own personal views though and I will be the first to admit I am certainly not qualified to make any real arguments based on any religious writings.

[MaryH]

26. The Early Church Fought for Separation of Church and State

They wanted to be free to be separate from the government.

[PATRICK]

34. Deeper than that

The meaning is parsed too narrowly, which the fundies do too well. The real separation is total. There is no relevance or alliance between God and human boxes or power. The game cannot be engaged or the God is false.

The freedom and responsibility to conduct government that might flow from being a Christian has not been too successful since it is very hard for people playing the power games to keep their spiritual heads straight and not start identifying wrong things and losing BOTH in a lie.

All of Jesus' warnings are against power, false leadership, ambition, pre-eminence and privilege. They were general to the fledgling discipleship and not relevant to the Roman Empire or its occupation of Palestine. He decried the lack of real faith of fan crowds and vocal enthusiasts. He was not always hopeful about the future of any future discipleship. At least HE had second thoughts. Scalia knows better than God Himself.

The leadership thought Jesus was a threat anyway. Their single instincts were functioning to that extent though they got absolutely everything else wrong- like Scalia.

The coalition of Jewish collaborationists and Roman occupiers did Jesus in. Yes, Virginia, Church state cooperation does matter. It can be dangerous beyond the ability of the heart to stand.

[Igel]

67. And you parse the meaning too broadly.

If I'm in a church in an area with a dominant religion, I'm likely to embrace the values taught by than religion. If the issue comes up during a campaign and I take a stand on it, I'm fairly stuck with that stand (barring a significant change in knowledge or circumstances).

How do I tell a Xian who believes in equal rights for gays because Christ told us to love our brethren and not judge that he can't implement his beliefs? As long as he believes the things he does, why he believes it doesn't matter. As long as congressmen and politicians are in churches (or any religion), and a sizeable number of his/her constituents have the same beliefs, you can't separate church out from the state.

Separating the state out from the church, well, that's not a difficult thing to execute (but probably shouldn't be implemented absolutely.)

[abelenkpe]

23. what does that have to do with anything? nt

[joefree1]

24. ... And now a word from our Founding Fathers

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion, but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."
-- Thomas Paine

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

-- Benjamin Franklin

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

-- James Madison

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced."
-- John Adams

"They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility, against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion."

-- Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-- James Madison

"Its first and most immediate purpose rested on the belief that a union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion."
-- Justice Hugo Black, On the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear."
-- Thomas Jefferson


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganWarrior/

[Just Me]

30. Fabulous quotes from those Founders!!!!

Thanks!!! :bounce:

[Charlie Brown]

57. Ironically, the Baptist movement

produced some of the most vocal and passionate voices for separation of Church and state both in Europe and America. Historically, it's one of their most influential legacies, and what sets them apart from other Protestant denominations. Oh, if only it were still so.

http://www.auok.org/early_advocates_for_separation.htm

“Let every man speak freely without fear, maintain the principles that he believes, worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let the government protect him in so doing.”

John Leland, Baptist leader in Virginia

After the U.S. Constitution was adopted, Leland rejoiced that it would be possible for a "Pagan, Turk, Jew or Christian" to be eligible for any post or office in the government.

[Igel]

69. The anabaptists were cruelly persecuted. n/t

[Mr_Spock]

62. Thanks, I printed the quotes out and stuck them on my wall!

:D

[garthranzz]

29. American anti-Semitism

As someone pointed out, America didn't protect the Jews in the 30's or 40's either. I believe the movie "Ship of Fools" is based on a real-life incident: a passenger ship with several hundred Jews who had bought their way of of Nazi Germany was refused entry to the U.S. It sailed from country to country, but each followed the lead of the U.S. The ship eventually returned to Germany, where the passengers went to the concentration camps. During the 30's a virulent anti-Semitic priest was all over the airwaves. Etc.

This country, great and tolerant as it is, does not have an unblemished record, regarding any minority.

It's precisely Scalia's mindset the Founders feared, having experienced it.

Scalia should read what Washington and John Adams had to say about treatment of the Jews.

Tyranny wraps itself in the cloak of religion at least as often as it grabs the mantle of patriotism.

[Just Me]

32. Sounds like an inevitable truth to me:

Tyranny wraps itself in the cloak of religion at least as often as it grabs the mantle of patriotism.

,...and, an unleashed drive for power, leads to tyranny.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. And Social Security didn't prevent the tsunami. Let's privatize it! (nt)

[saigon68]

35. He is a THUG and A Hoodlum

Not to mention a Capitalist Tool to oppress the dark skinned man. He would love to see an old fashioned Lynching.

[Seabiscuit]

37. You frickin' fool, Scalia!

The separation of church and state clause in the Constitution was designed to protect the state from encroachment by religion, you moron, not vice-versa!

When an outspoken U.S. Supreme Court Justice this desperately needs a refresher course in very basic Constitutional Law, you know this country's going to hell in a handbasket.

[hootinholler]

41. 2 words: Pelican Brief

-Hoot

[WMliberal]

38. Scalia should stick to law, as he has NOOOOOO grasp of history.

Religion was one of the cornerstones of the Nazi appeal in the 1930's. There was much less separation of church and state in Nazi era Germany than in the present U.S.

[Demeter]

46. His Grasp of the Law Is Rather Shaky, Too!

Perhaps an early retirement is the best thing for Scalia--before he gets impeached!

[RobinA]

60. He Apparently Has No Grasp

of law either, unless I missed the part where the US Constitution had jurisdiction in Germany.

[LynnTheDem]

39. How can a Justice be so TOTALLY IGNORANT of history?????

There was NO SEPARATION of church & state in Hitler's Germany, Scalia you incredibly stupid fuck!

[jukes]

40. scalia is a strict dominionist

and this country is in SERIOUS fucking trouble. i suspect there will be even more of this public defamation of the constitution after the little emperor's "gala".

[Crunchy Frog]

48. If Bush has his way

there's going to be three or four more of them appointed over the next four years.:scared:

[BrightKnight]

49. Wasn't the protistant reformation was about removing politics?

Combining religion with power, money an politics compromises the religious message. History is full of examples of this. I thought that the protestant reformation was about removing these influences and purifying the message. We appear to be regressing into a new dark age. America was founded in the age of enlightenment.

Perhaps Scalia should be reminded the Christ chased the money changers from the temple.

[Charlie Brown]

76. Luther and the Right of Conscience

"I say, then, neither pope, nor bishop, nor any man whatever has the right of making one syllable binding on a Christian man, unless it be done with his own consent. Whatever is done otherwise is done in the spirit of tyranny...I cry aloud on behalf of liberty and conscience, and I proclaim with confidence that no kind of law can with any justice be imposed on Christians, except so far as they themselves will; for we are free from all."

[snippy]

50. Proves that Scalia is just another republican liar. n/t

[enki23]

52. how the fuck did this idiot become a supreme court justice?

talk about social promotion.

[Just Me]

68. Just another lucky asshole,...I guess.

:shrug:

Right place, right time,...right friends.

After all,...the U.S.A. isn't the epitome of a merit-based system,...it's WHO YOU KNOW,...NOT WHAT YOU KNOW,...unless you hit the lottery or live in constant sacrifice of any fundamental principles.

That's life in the U.S. of Capitalist A.!!!!

[cosmicdot]

53. who vetted and confirmed this man? link to Hartmann's response below

did they ask him the right questions? did they delve deep enough into the man's 'philosophy' and/or 'interpretations'

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1202-33.htm

~snip~

Others, like Falwell and Robertson, who want to use the money and power of government to promote their religious agendas, are making rapid inroads with George W. Bush's so-called "faith-based initiatives," which shift money from government programs for the poor and needy to churches and religious groups.

All of this - the merging of church and state - is now being aggressively promoted by no less than Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, in no less shocking a venue than the nation's oldest Orthodox synagogue.

In some distant place, Adolf Hitler and Bishop Müller must be smiling at Scalia's encouragement of the growing conflation of church and state in America. It's exactly what they worked so hard to achieve, and what helped make their horrors possible.

And Thomas Jefferson and James Madison must have tears in their eyes.

[David__77]

54. But Scalia, my religion is secular.

"The kind of neutrality the framers intended, he continued, 'is not neutrality between religiousness and non-religiousness'"

What a crock. The right tries to paint secularism as a religion, and then Scalia says this nonsense.

[Nameless]

55. Hmm

The late Steve Kangas tackled this suggestion back in the mid-90's, here's a few snippets:

Hitler's views on religion were complex. Although ostensibly an atheist, he considered himself a cultural Catholic, and frequently evoked God, the Creator and Providence in his writings. Throughout his life he would remain an envious admirer of the Christian Church and its power over the masses. Here is but one example:
"We can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice… comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas. It has recognized quite correctly that its power of resistance does not lie in its lesser or greater adaptation to the scientific findings of the moment, which in reality are always fluctuating, but rather in rigidly holding to dogmas once established, for it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of faith. And so it stands today more firmly than ever." (53)
Hitler also saw a useful purpose for the Church:
"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude… For the political man, the value of a religion must be estimated less by its deficiencies than by the virtue of a visibly better substitute. As long as this appears to be lacking, what is present can be demolished only by fools or criminals." (54)
Hitler thus advocated freedom of religious belief. Although he would later press churches into the service of Nazism, often at the point of a gun, Hitler did not attempt to impose a state religion or mandate the basic philosophical content of German religions. As long as they did not interfere with his program, he allowed them to continue fuctioning. And this policy was foreshadowed in his writings:
"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else he has no right to be in politics…" (55)

"Political parties have nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties." (56)

"Worst of all, however, is the devastation wrought by the misuse of religious conviction for political ends." (57)

"Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other." (58)
Hitler was raised a Catholic, even going to school for two years at the monastery at Lambauch, Austria. As late as 24 he still called himself a Catholic, but somewhere along the way he became an atheist. It is highly doubtful that this was an intellectual decision, as a reading of his disordered thoughts in Mein Kampf will attest. The decision was most likely a pragmatic one, based on power and personal ambition. Bullock reveals an interesting anecdote showing how these considerations worked on the young Hitler. After five years of eking out a miserable existence in Vienna and four years of war, Hitler walked into his first German Worker's Party meeting:
"'Under the dim light shed by a grimy gas-lamp I could see four people sitting around a table…' As Hitler frankly acknowledges, this very obscurity was an attraction. It was only in a party which, like himself, was beginning at the bottom that he had any prospect of playing a leading part and imposing his ideas. In the established parties there was no room for him, he would be a nobody." (59)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

[leesa]

56. That's because, like Bus, Hitler broke down the walls of separation

and declared Germany a "christian" country. Is he warning the Jews?

[indepat]

58. Scalia clearly has a different form of government in mind: he clearly

does not like the one we have and appears hell-bent on destroying our Republic. You would think we the people would demand his impeachment in mass, but nah, whatever the extreme ideologues to the right want is hunky-dory-pie a.o.k. with a dopey public.

[GOPBasher]

59. They obviously didn't HAVE any separation of church/state

Jews had to wear the star of David. How the hell is that separation of church and state? It was the LACK of separation of church and state that killed the Jews. If they HAD the separation, the Holocaust probably would not have occured. Scalia's a fucking retard.

[The_Casual_Observer]

71. We are hearing shit now that has never been voiced by rational

sober responsible leaders. These bastards are truly dangerous and need to be stopped. Who appointed that piece of shit as global arbiter of the "truth"? They are going to far with that kind of talk.

[peacetalksforall]

72. He knows exactly what he's doing...he is bringing the Illuminati or The

One World Order or whatever you want to call it to get rid of the unfit and control, contain, sublimate, and make slaves of the rest.

I think we have just begun to hear these kinds of words from those who wish and think they are ordained to control us because it has been slow and difficult until now, but we gave them a license to take us over by our obsession with sports and shopping and by parents who bought all the propaganda about the American way and taught us innocently.

He is a tool. He is not dumb. The difference between us and him is what motivates him versus what we were raised to believe.

I think he is part of a group that wants to bring common citizens to their knees. From union busting to control of communication to prisons to drug dependency as a method. They want us to turn on each other and to have the rest control us - spies, snitches, liars by profession, kangaroo courts, and lots and lots of prisons and mentalhospitals. They want us bar-coded and they want to watch us on screens by the Poindexters and ultra spy system ceo's.

Over the decades they have honed an approach that includes facism, nazism, communism, military dictatorships. We call what they are doing to the rest of the world imperialism - they call it order.

Because of our growth financially, they need to break us and one way is to ruin the earth. I don't think they plan to live in the U.S. when they succeed. (Try Paraguay where their man Moon has bought thousands of acres of property to start. Notice what good work Moon has done so far with highly controlled followers?)

Loony? I only base these words on what has resulted from trying to figure out why they do and say things that are the opposite of what we were taught from day one of school and sunday school.

My eyes opened wide and my ears started getting fox-like when we were taught to detest and fear communists while our head honchos were doing business with them. Nixon, Hammer, Dulles, Kissinger and on and on. Go back to Lindbergh as hard as it is to say that.

Why do we wonder what some of our leaders are up to and how they can vote the way they do or rollover the way they do?

Dire straits? Too horrific? What offends you the most?

[TexasLawyer]

73. Hitler Knew the Power of Religion

and he used it--big time!

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

**************************************

"For by employing religious force in the service of its political considerations, the crown aroused a spirit which at that outset it had not considered possible."

-Adolf Hitler on the state of Rome (Mein Kampf)

[sam sarrha]

74. how old is this guy.. is this a case of dementia...?? who appointed him ?

[jpgray]

75. Hitler was a huge fan of blending church and state power

It goes hand in hand with blending corporate and state power.

[tom_paine]

77. Talk about Nazi-like revision of history! Crazy. Up is down.

Yep, that was a pretty good seperation there of church and state, eh?

Fat Tony is fucking insane.

[mitchum]

78. If Fat Tony has a heart attack, does that mean Good Ol' Clarence...

keels over also?
I despise those two Opus Dei shitbags