Principal outlaws "Freak" dancing

[flygal]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DIRTY_DANCING?SITE=MTGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

LEMOORE, Calif. (AP) -- Fed up with students' racy moves, a principal at a California high school has taken the unusual step of canceling the rest of this year's school dances.

Principal Jim Bennett of Lemoore Union High School said he warned students at a winter formal dance last month to either quit dirty dancing or face the possibility of not dancing at all.

But he said the students continued "freak dancing," a form of sexually suggestive dancing that involves grinding the hips and pelvic area.

The ban on dances includes the school's Sadie Hawkins dance in February and the junior and senior proms in the spring, but Bennett said they could be rescheduled if students modify their behavior.


The "teeny tiny" bit of conservative in me doesn't have a problem. I also wish there were stricter dress codes. Back in my day you couldn't wear sweats or shorts. Now anything goes (except the belly I guess). I just think kids need to learn some "social graces" and dressing appropriately and not dry humping on the dance floor are a good start. <<zipping up Teflon suit>> ----- flame away

edited - last sentence didn't make sense, wanted to clarify I agree with this principal

[saltpoint]

1. A grinding of the pelvic area while dancing?

Shocking.

Thank Christ someone has put a stop to this immediately!

[Florida_Geek]

17. Elvis would have never done that

Right.

[saltpoint]

18. Yes. Ed Sullivan only showed Elvis from the waist up.

Couldn't risk exciting an entire population to sexual excess.

: )

[KinkyDem]

131. Partly true

Ed Sullivan only showed Elvis from the waste up in his second performance on his show.

[saltpoint]

235. "The way he moved, it was a sin..."

--is a line from the song "Black Velvet," about Elvis as the messiah of rock'n'roll and his prominent basket.

I think you're right about it being the second appearance -- but that just dramatizes the genitalphobia.

I realize that "freak dancing" is upsetting to people. But this country always responds the same way to "sin." Prohibition did not work. People drank like fishes. My own grandfather ran white lightening out of a shanty along the old canal in his town, with enthusiastic help from two uncles, four aunts, and my two twin cousins, affectionately called "the hellions" among shanty intimates.

Prohibiting freakdancing enhances its appeal. Banned books are delicious to read.

I've seen a hell of a lot of wonderful parents raise kids who don't simulate sex on dance floors. I don't think it's fair to those parents -- or those kids for that matter -- to generalize and say that if freakdancing is condoned then ALL kids will do it. That just isn't true.

Not all kids have that sort of bravado and many don't even go to their schools' dances at all.

[mattclearing]

276. I've been out of high school for over a decade now, and...

Freak dancing was widespread then. Even when I was a freshman in high school it was rampant.

And most of the kids who were not shy with the opposite sex were involved.

This is nothing new. Nor is it worthy of this principal's, nor our valuable time.

Christ, did this man not see Footloose? Even that was back in the 80's.

I'm tired of old people trying to instill their bullshit values on the younger generations and beyond.

It's beyond hopeless, and it only pisses us/them off.

[auburngrad82]

52. I don't think Elvis ground his pelvis AGAINST another person

I think that's what it's referring to. You can shake yer groove thang, you just can't rub it against anyone.

[shadowknows69]

28. We're talking about children here

that are obviouosly already growing up too fast these days. I guess I have enough conservative blood in me to agree with this in theory. The real values about this sort of thing needs to be taught at home. Invite a few of the parents to be chaperones. Kids won't like it but I'll bet not-so-little susie and not-so-little billy will be less likely to grind pelvises with mom and dad watching.

[DrWeird]

42. We're talking about horny teenagers.

dancing.

[saigon68]

109. Let them GRIND THEIR PELVISES in back seat of the Car.

LOL

Put your pants back on.

[purduejake]

148. As if these same children aren't going home...

and doing some real humping. This is ridiculous. Next thing you know, slow dancing and touching will be banned.

[shadowknows69]

152. fine, that's where I did my humping.

home when mom was away. in a field. auditorium once. football stands. still doesn't mean we should make it any easier or tempting for them.

[purduejake]

153. Well, people shouldn't act like these are little innocent children...

because they are not. That's life. I can see debate over where to draw the line with what is allowable or not, but we shouldn't assume for one minute that these children are clueless.

[LostinVA]

159. I think that's the point most of us

are making -- they aren't innocent, and need to learn boundaries about what is -- and what isn't -- acceptable at a public function. Hopefully, at least some of their parents are educating them at home...

[shadowknows69]

163. I once DJ'd for an outdoor event

adults and their kids. i had 9 and 10 year old boys and girls coming up to me asking for eminem songs that I knew to have multiple obscenities in(i love eminem btw but a lot of it is very adult sh*t despite how MTV markets it). I told the kids I couldn't play this stuff at a family function with parents and even younger kids in attendance and they were like "our parents buy us this stuff" looking at me like I was 80 years old. then these kids parent came up to me and reinforced it saying, oh yeah we let them listen to this all the time. I honestly was flabbergasted. Am I too old fashioned?

[saltpoint]

238. I'm aware of the facts in the case.

I stand by my response, which attempted to question the prohibitive impulse in this country.

If you ban booze, people run it illegally. Ban freakdancing, and it will confirm to kids who want to try it that it is obviously another alluring activity.

Dancing IS simulated sex. When I watch the really talented tango dancers, it takes less than a second for me to understand the symbolism.

Their bodies touch.

Inviting parents to kids' dances probably would do what you say to Susie and Billy's impulse to freakdance, but it won't take Susie and Billy long to devise an alternative strategy.

Sorry. As transgressions go, I would place deceit and betrayal far ahead of pelvis grinding.

[okieinpain]

211. actually, I don't call it freak dancing, I call it fucking.

[saltpoint]

239. The original post called it 'freak dancing' --

-- and in keeping with responding to information as presented, I call it 'freak dancing' as referenced.

Generally I feel dancing IS simulated sex. That's not a revelatory insight, is it? It's paralyzed the Baptists for generations.

Generally I feel that fucking is done with express genital-to-genital contact, as opposed to "dry humping," a slang colloquialism for sexual activity which generally occurs with peoples' clothes still on.

How far off am I on your point?

[okieinpain]

251. nah, it's fucking pure and simple. I don't care if there is no actually

genital to genital contact. the kids are screwing, and they are putting pressure on the other kids to do it also. the principal should get a medal.

[saltpoint]

254. Equating dry humping with actual fucking is --

-- a tough sell.

I think the distinction is considerable.

[Divine Discontent]

296. THOSE WHO HAVE NOOOOOOOO CLUE SHOULDN'T SAY THEY APPROVE

LOOK! Until you've been in attendence where young kids (10-16) are doing this, you cannot say, "but but but Elvis did it!, hahahaha", or that, "you know we all wanted to do it!".

We all wanted to, but our LEADERS & TEACHERS & PARENTS taught most of us differently. You do not encourage public sexual gratification to underaged children. If you approve of these virtual humps, where the boys gets hard & ejaculates in their shorts if the girl lets them grind into her long enough, giving her an orgasm also, THEN YOU ARE SEVERELY IN NEED OF THERAPY & SHOULDN'T SUPERVISE ANYONE'S CHILD!

There's nothing wrong with boys & girls kissing for a little bit, but I liked the point someone else made about not encouraging or giving them the chance to physically harass other kids into thinking well, all the other kids do it, so I should too if I want a boyfriend. Or allow them to flippin' quasi-sex in public! If their parents aren't responsible enough to make sure they get home right after the dance, OH WELL, they'll go and possibly do the full thing somewhere, but that's what adults are for - leadership & teaching!

on edit: I saw this occurring on Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, and was a young adult in the room, and there were no parents around, and 17-20 year old men were doing this to a couple of willing 12-14 year old girls and it was disgusting and contemptable on the guy who was in charge who seemed to be eyeing it all and not stopping it. I left & reported it to the main desk. I would expect anyone of adult age to stop what possibly could be a disaster in the making with one of those girls getting raped or coerced into sex, or getting pregnant. There was no "love" there, just guys hoping to get some young girl sex without any strings attached. Call me a prude, I don't care.

[da_chimperor]

2. WTF? If it wasn't for pelvic grinding, my senior prom would have sucked!

Let's let the young'uns have some fun.

[Whoa_Nelly]

121. UPDATE: From local Lemoore, CA friend

My friend in Lemoore writes:
Been in the papers for a couple weeks- last I heard he was going to allow the Sadie Hawkins, but if they still did their freak dancing the prom is definitely off.

[da_chimperor]

125. We had some semi-freaky dancing at my prom, and it was great.

but then again everyone there was 17 or above. :shrug:

[gatorboy]

3. Pelvic dancing? Why didn't you guys tell me that Elvis was back?

Goodness! This has been a problem for 40 years! Good thing someone decided to do something about it!

[Connie_Corleone]

4. Um, the pelvic dancing kids do now is not like Elvis.

Freak dancing is basically simulated sex on the dance floor with your clothes on.

[TahitiNut]

9. That's exactly how the Funky Chicken was described in the 50's.

The same dancensorship was the rage at our teen-age sock hops in the 50's ... dances chaperoned by teachers and parents with flashlights. It was absolutely no wonder that basement after-school parties became the rage.

[LostinVA]

13. Um, this isn't the Funky Chicken

This is actual SEX on the dance floor -- not just grinding or "dirty dancing." To be blunt, it is f*cking while dressed, and my niece and nephew have told me kids often have an orgasm on the floor, and the boys walk around showing off their erections.

These aren't adults, nor 17-year-olds... I'm talking about 13 and 14-year old. Maybe some of the people on this thread think this is cute or funny or cool, but I don't. the kids in this country -- specifically the girls -- are often being forced into acting a certain way and doing things they don't want to. For example: the absolutely skanky sex clothes 10 year olds wear. And, most of these kids haven't had one second of real sex education. We have a teenage pregnancy and STD problem on our hands in this country, and so many people refuse to acknowledge it. And, having adults chuckling at or tacitly condoning "freaking" doesn't help any.

As I started earlier, I am as liberal as they come, and think some form of sex ed should start in grammar school. But freaking isn't the Funky Chicken, or girls and boys rubbing against each other.

Sorry for the rant, but I have a niece and nephew right at this age, and they both feel tremendous pressure to act in a way neither wish to.

[bunny planet]

49. It is most definitely not the Funky chicken.

Sometimes there is a boy in front, a girl in the middle, and a boy behind in the dance, all three grinding like doing it doggy style. For adults in a club who choose to dance this way, fine, for an older couple who are boyfriend and girlfriend and who are alone, as a prelude to actual sex, fine (as long as it's safe sex). Not for my fourteen year old please. Kids that age need adults to help them set limits they would probably like to set themselves if they weren't so afraid of looking like prudes or outsiders. My daughter has actually stayed home from some dances, and she loves to dance, because she knew she would have to dance that way if she didn't want to be singled out. At her school they call it giving boys a 'lap dance' or 'giving booty'. I think the idea of canceling the dances is a bad idea, there should just be some adults there on 'boundary patrol'. The kids need to learn that they can have fun, and flirt without being pornographic to do it.

I'm a dancer, I will dance until the break of dawn anytime there is a dance party so I'm certainly not against dancing, but children (girls especially) do need someone to protect them from inappropriate touching and invasion of personal space masquerading as a dance. Dancing can be plenty stimulating and sexy without going too far.

[silverpatronus]

191. oy vey...

you people would have had fits at our high school dances in trinidad...actually, you'd have fits all over the caribbean. because we dance just like that, from young to old and it is sincerely no big deal.

[bunny planet]

195. Actually I lived in Trinidad for awhile and yes went to many a dance party

there that got extremely raunchy and fun. I was a young adult, and could handle myself. However, I think a thirteen year old or fouteen year old girl who loves to dance and has to feel left out if she doesn't want to dance that close with someone or get nastier than she wants to is something to consider.

[bunny planet]

206. Also in Trinidad, at least in my experience living there, their was not

the culture of violence and misogeny that has evolved in this country, so even the dirty dancing did not have that attitude tainting it. Do you have children? Do you have a young teenage girl, it is very easy for them to be used and abused in this exploitative society. In Trinidad, everything was 'de hoddest hod' (phonetic spelling) but everything was also done in 'Trinidad time' which was slower, more leisurely, less aggressive and malignant than the culture here. The big spliffas didn't hurt either. Mighty Sparrow mon.
;-)

[silverpatronus]

245. i WAS a young teenage girl...

and i have younger sisters and cousins who are like sisters, and it's not a big deal because it's not expected, nor is not doing it ridiculed, and even if it were, we wouldn't care.

[bunny planet]

246. yes I know, but my point was that Trinidad is a much less misogynist

culture, less aggressive towards women.

[okieinpain]

213. and with is the out of wedlock birth rate.

[Midlodemocrat]

145. I agree with you

these are children and the way some of them 'dance' is really questionable. I have chaperoned dances where the ones who are grinding get the other kids to surround them to keep the parents away. We have had to send kids home, and I am talking middle school here, and we told the parents why.

Additionally, I read somewhere last year about a school in CA, I think, where the girls were wearing thongs or nothing in order to make having sex while dancing a little easier. Apparently, a vice principal was 'checking' and got in a lot of trouble...as well she should have.

[yinkaafrica]

186. I'm with you, this goes way too far

[la la]

37. freakin'

you ever watch elementary or middle school kids do this? It's absolutely wrong ---and I'm a very liberal person- usually let stuff go if it's not hurtful. Freaking is hurtful- to the kids. I've seen it lead to actual 'laying down on the floor sex', with other kids crowding around to watch it--- before an adult got there to stop it. It's just another way kids are made into adults too soon.

[saltpoint]

242. Hips are hips, in my book.

That goes for the 1950s and 1960s or last week or a thousand years ago.

Hips are hips.

[Left Is Write]

51. The difference

Is that Elvis wasn't grinding his pelvis into someone else's.

[DrWeird]

At least not on stage.

Pretty trivial difference though.

[Left Is Write]

54. I don't care what he did with his pelvis in private.

But what he was doing onstage was not the same as the freak dancing being discussed here. It's not a valid comparison.

[DrWeird]

57. It's the same dance only by himself.

If the freak is sex, then Elvis was televised masturbation. It's every bit as sexually explicit. If you want to call that explicit.

[Left Is Write]

64. No, it's not. I've seen what Elvis did.

I've also seen what the kids "freaking" do. It is hardly the same, and it is certainly more explicit. A boy with an erection grinding his erection into the back end of a girl while he's holding her breasts is considerably different from what Elvis did.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to think that kind of public display by underage kids is inappropriate, particularly in a school setting.

The school isn't telling the kids they can't have sex. The school is telling the kids they cannot have simulated sex acts (and I'd even take out the word "simulated") in public at school dances.

[Swamp Rat]

117. HAHA!

"... then Elvis was televised masturbation." :D

[mitchum]

237. But I thought talking head punditry was "televised masturbation"

:)

[Mr_Spock]

5. Apparently none of the above posters has seen what these kids do.

It's more like "fucking" on the dance floor. I saw a woman have an orgasm in a club recently - it made me SO uncomfortable. If some horny teenager tried to dry hump my little girls in public - and I knew about it - I'd be mighty pissed as well. This is definitely where I draw the line.

[Connie_Corleone]

8. I agree.

There is no comparison to what kids did in the 1950's to what they're doing now on the dance floor. It's NOT dancing.

What amazes me is that people are just now talking about this. Freak dancing was going on when I was in college 10 years ago.

I didn't like it then, and I sure don't like it now.

[la la]

39. freakin'

was going on in the middle school I taught in - at least 15 years ago.
it took about that same 15 years to get kids to understand that they wouldn't be allowed to do it. If parents saw that happening ( they NEVER chaperoned dances!)- they would have apoplexy on the spot! it is NOT 'cute' and it is NOT Elvis and it is NOT appropriate or safe.

[wuushew]

55. How is it not safe?

Increased heart attack or strokes among adults? Seems to me safe sex with your cloths on is pretty riskless even if I was to accept the premise of the statement. Seems to me all this good willed authoritarianism undermines the notion that adolescents have free will and are capable of observing and acting on things in the real world.

[DrWeird]

63. LOL.

It can lead to lower back problems.

[Squatch]

65. And chafing

[phasev]

89. you missed the point

it's all about having a sense of decency. leave sex in the bedroom and in private places. not in clear view of everybody.

[wuushew]

115. Decency is entirely too subjective

many of these posts make my inner civil libertarian weep. These dance events are not required school functions but voluntary. The two or more people "freaking" do so out of mutual consent. Therefore in the absence of draconian behavior rules, the people or students that are offended should do one of the following things. Either (A)Leave the function (B)Deal with your outrage or (C)Form a dialog between the the parties and by mutual agreement setup limited rules where behavior guidelines are followed by all involved.

America is a country of blind outrage evidenced by people's obvious hate of gay marriage. Despite the fact the such a concept has zero affect on heterosexual marriage the strong inclination by many voters to control other people's behavior serves to the detriment of freedom.

The notion that adolescents aren't people also bothers me greatly. The teenage brain on average can balance a checkbook, grasp abstract ideas and hopefully has the wherewithal to if it was possible to understand voting or jury duty. Sadly that is a claim I cannot make to many American seniors afflicted by senility or other mental degenerations. We do not strip them of their legal rights as any good opponent of hypocrisy would insist.

Another aspect of this debate which I find unpleasant is that teenagers are viewed because of their youth as at the mercy of environmental determinism. Since they have not experienced enough of the world the rest of society must some how limit the scope of their actions. Again I can sight dozens of examples of poor adult behavior ranging anywhere from smoking or alcoholism to divorce, credit card debt or speeding. I see no clear line of demarcation between adult behavior and adolescent behavior. Instead of the generally flawed practice of social engineering, people and governments should concern themselves with the consequences of peoples decisions not the motivation or nature by which they live their lives.

[cally]

92. It puts young teens in a position

where the cultural norm is sex in public. I don't think encouraging sexual activity before you are ready is healthy. Freak dancing is sex. Read above and from I've heard from my kids. They do have orgasms.

[purduejake]

151. I "freak" dance...

and I wish I could have an orgasm while doing it. It's never happened to anybody I know, but I'm sure we'll try harder.

[Dorian Gray]

93. Yep...

That's exactly it. Their "free will." Yep...

Geez, these are teens having simulated sex at a school dance. If the principal wants to close the dances down, I will support his decisions. If my kids behaved in this way, I would come down on them harder than that. (They would basically have no social life for the rest of the school year.)

I'm sorry, maybe I'm a prude, but I don't think that this behavior from teenagers is healthy or good. Hell, I think that this behavior from adults is exhibitionist, and I wouldn't join in the "fun."

[okieinpain]

215. wow, man do you have kids. if yes, is it okay for a boy to fuck your

daughter on the dance floor.

[purduejake]

149. It's not dancing?

Who are you to make that decision? You sound like the people who say "That's not art."

[Connie_Corleone]

154. That wasn't a decision.

It was an opinion.

[bloom]

274. Some "art" isn't art.

And sex isn't dancing.

[Mr_Spock]

223. Some people get so caught up in protecting their freedom...

that they lose sight of the actual act in question. I'm far from a prude, but I assumed the people I saw doing this were so drunk and/or stoned that they didn't care that people were practically puking watching these fools wet their underware.

People (especially drunk, horny kids) will imitatively do all sorts of things they wouldn't normally do when presented with this sort of situation. The people I saw doing this never returned to the club they had so stimatized themselves. Some kids will be permanently stigmatized and/or become obcessed with this sort of behavior. Why not do them and all of us (especially parents) a favor and just make a "not permitted" rule? We have laws about creating a "hostile work environment" but we can't have rules about drunken kids dry-humping at a public event? That's not a hostile environment? C'mon! :eyes:

[Nashyra]

11. Dresscode major problem

There was an all out riot at the Homecoming dance this last fall. The principal invited parents to chaperone, how stupid was that. Anyway most of the girls who left home were dressed differently then they were when they exited the girls bathroom at arrival. Seems to be the standard behavior, the cheerleaders told me that is what they do all the time or their parents would not let them out of the house. Of course the parents that were there had a heart attack. I knew it was true because my son told me about it when he was in high school. The parents were upset about the fact that the traditional homecoming theme is "pimps and hoe", no matter what the real theme this is what the kids dress for. The girls said that this is the "only time" they can dress like "sluts" and get away with it. Needless to say we have added a chatgroup after practice once a week about why self esteem is so important. The hard part was sitting there acting like it's no big deal, don't let them shock me, that's what they want. Needless to say they were all excited about how pissed the parents were and how pissed they were at the principal. The girls on the leadership counsel have now begun to work together with the principal for a dress code for the Prom, of course she wants to go overboard after the last experience, but things are getting ironed out. Teenagers, they love to push that envelope.

[LizW]

21. Parents should be chaperoning dances

Otherwise we don't stand a chance of knowing what the kids are really doing. It's not fair for teachers and principals to have to deal with these things without parent involvement.

At my son's school we have to sign a permission form before every dance. It details the dress code and spells out the behavior expected of the student. It even says that the parent, by signing, agrees to pick the child up on time (this is middle school).

I'm just fine with this. I can let my son go to a dance without worrying that he's going to be staring at half dressed girls or watching people having clothed sex on the dance floor.

I agree, kids will push the envelope, and as long as it's harmless, that's fine. But my expereince is that most kids have no idea where the line is between harmless and dangerous.

[shanti]

31. let me tell you something...

as the mother of a teen son. the girls are just as bad if not worse! don't blame it all on the boys!

[DrWeird]

34. We need to do something about this dangerous rock and roll.

It's corrupting our youth.

[Zynx]

40. Not the same thing, so don't start that routine.

This is essentially kids involved in public sex, minus the whole "get naked" part. You have the same things at dance clubs for adults, I've participated in it, and it's the same sort of grind lap dance action that you have to pay for at a strip club.

[DrWeird]

44. It's exactly the same thing.

Only the name has changed

[redqueen]

47. So, you seriously believe that kids were having orgasms from doing

the funky chicken? Or even the twist?

For serious?

[DrWeird]

50. If by "kids" you mean sexually mature teenagers...

I'm sure they've been having orgasms since the dawn of time.

[redqueen]

53. Sexually mature teenagers have been having orgasms ON THE DANCE FLOOR

AT SCHOOL, since the dawn of time?

Care to rethink that one?

[DrWeird]

56. Well, there haven't been schools since the dawn of time.

But sure, or backseats of cars, or caves, or what have you. And the whole point of organized dances has always been about sex. Even if it wasn't bumping and grinding, and that's been around since the fifties. Now it's the slow dances where the sex comes in. You can't tell me your great-grandpa didn't use the slow dances at the grange social for a little heavy petting with your great-grandma. As for the orgasm, you seem to be confusing a dance with one person's anecdotal story from an adult nightclub.

[Squatch]

58. You are absolutely correct

Dancing is a stylized form of mating ritual.

That's why I hate dancing. I feel like a blue footed booby, or something. That, and I naturally stink at it.

[redqueen]

60. About sex is not the same as sex.

And I don't need anecdotal stories to confirm that men have orgasms from dry humping.

Great grandpa may have done heavy petting, but to pretend what's going on now is 'heavy petting' is really ignorant.

[Squatch]

62. Here you go...

Dancing is and always will be about sex in the animal kingdom:

http://www.aviary.org/curric/sociallives.htm

[redqueen]

67. This I know.

However, children are not animals, and however much swinging your hips and whatever is meant to show off sexual ability / maturity / whathaveyou, actually grinding one's clothed genitals against another underage person crosses the line, in my opinion.

Apparently you disagree and think 12 year olds dry humping is A-OK. We just disagree.

[Squatch]

69. 12 yr olds are at the peak of sexual discovery

society deems it's not appropriate until much later. Biology and society do not always agree.

Children ARE animals, as are we all, guided in part by primal instinct.

[redqueen]

73. So?

So we should just lower the age of consent to 12?

[DrWeird]

74. Consent to dancing?

Sure.

[redqueen]

77. Dancing in this case = sex

So no, not dancing, dry humping (i.e. sex).

[DrWeird]

79. Hardly.

Of course, they said the same thing about Elvis.

[redqueen]

81. Still trying the 'Elvis' argument, eh?

Despite being shown by several posters that it's not the same thing?

[DrWeird]

85. They haven't shown. They've only opined.

And their "argument" is straight out of Bob Boudelang.

It's not the same thing. So stop saying that!!!

[redqueen]

88. It's really not the same thing.

Oh well... you can lead a horse to water...

[DrWeird]

91. Yeah, basically it is.

Maybe a little more obvious, but every bit as sexual.

[redqueen]

96. One adult dancing suggestively

during concerts and whatnot is the same thing as two underage people simulating sex acts to music at a school dance.

OK. Got it.

[DrWeird]

102. It is the same thing.

On one hand you've got this hypersexy rock star grinding his hips through a television screen and into the collective imaginations of millions of teenage girls. On the other, you've got those girls going out and trying it with their boyfriends.

It wasn't Elvis that all those censors were worried about, it was fear of teenagers dancing and swinging there hips. Which is the same thing you're worried about.

OK. Got it.

[redqueen]

107. What the censors were concerend about is immaterial to this convo.

The fact is that the dancing Elvis did did not involve two people simulating sex.

What the censors did matters nothing in this conversation. This conversation is about allowing teenagers to simulate sex at school dances.

[DrWeird]

124. I disagree.

I'm claiming that people in this thread agreeing with this principal are acting very much the same as the anti-rock n' roll censors of the fifties.

And it's only about "simulating sex" in schools because you're choosing to define "the freak" as simulated sex.

[bobbieinok]

165. have you personally seen any of what other posters are talking about???

do you have children who are now between 11 and 14??? if so, would you think it was just fine if they were dancing this way??? if they were feeling pressured to dance this way????

[DrWeird]

205. Yes, I have.

No, I don't have any children 11 and 14. I danced "the freak" when I was in high school, I'm willing to bet most hear did too, even if they don't admit it. I'm no hypocrite. And I doubt any of these kids are really dancing this way unwilllingly.

[AgadorSparticus]

250. i freaked in college....but it was NOTHING like it is today.

what we called freaking is so tame compared to (apparently) what jr. high kids are doing now. good lord, i feel sorry for these kids to have to grow up in this madness.

[regnaD kciN]

290. "Unwillingly"...? Ha!

I find the myopia of parents in my generation hysterical. When it comes to their kids (and particularly their daughters), there's no way they can possibly admit that their little darlings could ever actually want to have sex (real or simulated). It has to be...that's right...Peer Pressure! Yeah...that's the ticket. (And has anyone ever noticed how "peer pressure" is always invoked to explain teenagers doing something other than what is being pushed on them by parental pressure?)

And note how, when it comes to having sex, teenagers miraculously become "just children." :eyes: When you have a huge investment in denial, a 17-year-old gets placed in the same category as a toddler...even by those parents who were quite willingly and happily "sexually active" at that same age, if not younger. Do these people have any memory whatsoever of being that age themselves? :shrug:

[Squatch]

82. Dry humping is sex?

How about copping a feel? Pinching an ass? etc. etc. etc.

[redqueen]

90. Yes.

The other acts you mentioned are an attempt to drive this convo off on another tangent (just like the insanely stupid "Elvis" argument).

Next?

[DrWeird]

97. It's a valid question.

To equate the freak with dry humping is pretty of tangent. So is the insanely stupid "it's not like Elvis" argument. So petting, or pinching somebody in the acts are other mentionable act. So is cheerleading, for that matter.

[redqueen]

98. You're going from bad to worse.

Have a good day.

[DrWeird]

103. Ah, "have a good day."

= I just lost the argument.

[redqueen]

105. "Have a good day" = "I'm tired of trying to communiate with you."

:hi:

[patcox2]

190. Dry hump someone without consent and it is rape, my friend.

Absolutely and positively, rubbing your body against someone else's body for the purpose of sexual gratification is sex, legally, morally, in law and in fact.

[DrWeird]

201. Yes, without consent.

But we're not talking about sexual activity without consent.

[patcox2]

204. No, but for it to be rape w/o consent, it has to be sex, even with.

And I am serious, it would be rape, legally indistinguishable from any other form of sexual assault, without consent.

But the point is, it has to be sex to be rape. Rape is sex without consent. So, with consent, its not rape, but its still sex.

[tblue37]

171. Um, in public?

Pissing and pooping are also natural activities, and people of all ages do them. But I don't think they should be done as a publc performance at school, and I don't think kids, especially girls, should be in a position where they feel pressured to engage in such things publicly--at school.

Some sorts of behavior are private--or should be.

[DrWeird]

70. Yes, children are animals.

And we're talking about a high school here, where half of the students are sexually active and the other half wish they were.

[redqueen]

75. So you think we should at least lower the age of consent to 14, then?

[DrWeird]

83. For dancing, or sex?

If sex, I believe that in most states it's entirely legal for two 14 year olds to have sex. Why? Would you like to prosecute them? As far as ages of consent, I believe that has to do with sex with older persons.

[redqueen]

94. If you think it's fine

for 14 year olds to simulate sex on the dance floor, then good for you.

[DrWeird]

66. And dancing is not the same thing as sex.

Even with a lot of pelvic movement.

Frankly, I think grandpa with his hand up grandma's skirt diddling her to Moon River is quit a bit more sexual than just the usual bump and grind.

[redqueen]

71. Do you really believe

that boys in the 50's used to just reach up girls' skirts on the dancefloor?

:crazy:

[DrWeird]

78. You can count on it.

Do you really think teenagers today are different then teenagers fifty years ago?

[redqueen]

86. No, but I KNOW society's permissiveness is different.

And back then, that would not be tolerated. So if rhetorical teenaged grandpa actually did try being a perverted a-hole by trying to get to third base on the dance floor, he'd have been kicked out of the dance like the trash he was acting like.

[DrWeird]

126. And that's a good thing.

Some people, it appears, would rather return to the fifties. When sex was something to be ashamed of.

"acting like a perverted asshole"

Well now you're just making judgement calls. One could say the same thing about "the twist" or everything in the movie "Dirty Dancing" (which was wildly popular with teenage girls when I was in high school) or half the moves from the average cheerleading squad.

I don't think you've got an argument, just a bad case of "kids these days."

[redqueen]

129. Of course I'm making judgment calls.

This is a school dance, not a night club. Hell I don't think fingering your partner is even legal at most night clubs.

Sorry, but you're all over the map here. It's not a case of 'kids these days', it's a case of 'what *isn't* allowed these days?'

Sex is not something to be ashamed of, and I seriously doubt anyone who thinks it's OK to ban this type of dancing would disagree with that sentiment. This is not about sex, this is about a type of dancing which many on this thread seem to agree is basically the simulated act of sex. That's quite a far cry from Dirty Dancing or the twist... cheerleading ... bringing that up is just bizarre.

[DrWeird]

133. Judgement calls as in:

people who do "the freak" are perverted assholes.

I mean you don't see me going around calling cheerleaders perverted assholes because they go around shaking their hips and their breats and doing the splits and kicking their legs up in the air like whatsname (19th french ladies that dance and kick w/ no underwear.)

[redqueen]

136. No,

I called a teenager who'd try to finger his date at a school dance a perverted a-hole.

Just not trying very hard today are you?

[DrWeird]

139. People who finger their girlfriends are assholes?

Is it hard to find lasting relationships with opinions like that?

[redqueen]

143. Why omit the 'at a school dance' part?

Does the context make it harder to make your arguments?

[DrWeird]

144. Does that really make a big difference?

It's OK if they sneak away to the girls room, or the backseat of his car, or down at the park?

[redqueen]

155. The difference is big, yes.

At the school dance, it makes other students uncomfortable and goes against school rules. Everywhere else they only have to worry about police or their parents.

This thread isn't about what everyone thinks is OK for everyone else to do. Why do you keep trying to conflate other issues with this one?

[Sterling]

173. To me it does.

If kids are going to be sexually active they need to learn the responsibility that goes with it. Part of it is having the class not to make others watch you fuck in public. Kids are being marketed to in ways today that make them think being a kid is like being a grown up except without the same rules we have to live by.

When I go to a club I don't want to see a couple fucking on the dance floor, or in a booth or anywhere that I did not specifically come to or pay to see people fucking.

The fact is that kids while sexually active are really mature enough to handle the responsibility of being sexually active. I am glad someone is trying to teach them.

[Sterling]

172. It's part of the sexual predatory nature of our culture, Dr.

It makes me sad to see that children are increasingly being marketed to like adults in terms of sexuality. We have underage teen pop stars dressed up like the girls in INTERNET porn singing about how they "are not that innocent".

It's not like these kids just started "freak dancing" on their own. MTV and the major labels made a shit load of money targeting children with sex. And I mean sex dude, not just rock and roll. And not older high school kids, children. I understand why you would compare this to the old days when rock and roll was going to send you to hell but this is just about turning little kids into whores and pimps for the profit of corporate America. It's not art, it's commerce, and it's exploitation.

Sure kids are going to be sexually active, most of us were to some degree. But the degree that corporate culture has exploited that fact has really twisted being a teen into something altogether different than what we dealt with when we were kids.

[LostinVA]

176. Great Post, Sterling

You made the point I've been trying to make all day on this thread -- but you made it better.

[DrWeird]

207. I'm not buying it.

"t's not like these kids just started "freak dancing" on their own."

These kids would be fucking like rabbits on their own. "The freak" has been around since at least the late seventies, well before MTV and "the major labels making a shit load of money targeting children with sex" whatever the hell that means.

"It's not art, it's commerce, and it's exploitation."

No, it's dancing. Which is a form of art. It's not commerce or exploitation.

"But the degree that corporate culture has exploited that fact has really twisted being a teen into something altogether different than what we dealt with when we were kids."

Horseshit. Just a rephrasing of the conservative "moral decay of America" line.

[Sterling]

210. Ok I get it now.

""The freak" has been around since at least the late seventies"

I don't think we are talking about the same "dance"

[DrWeird]

226. No, I think we are.

It's just getting exaggerated wildly out of proportion.

[bloom]

278. "The freak" wasn't' around in the 70's that I experienced....

In fact - in all but the slow dances - people did not touch at all. And even then - not much. Rock 'N Roll or no...

I didn't realize how discreet we were. :)

[NashVegas]

224. There Are Many Forms of Art

That have been commercially exploited to the point where there's nothing "artful" about it. Dance is no different in this than movies, music, paintings, you name it.

[DrWeird]

228. If we were talking about a commercial, you may have a point.

Since what we're talking about is what teenagers are doing by themselves sans media, you haven't.

[NashVegas]

236. Did You See The Pic Posted In This Thread

that showed two young people going at it for some media event? Big Verizon banner hanging in the background.

I'd say Sterling has the right of it.

on edit:

and no, it doesn't have to be in a commercial. There is a lot of SHIT on our radios, in our theatres, on our doctors' office walls. The shit exists because people don't say 'no' to it. So this principal is saying 'no.' Fine by me.

[saltpoint]

243. But these art forms thrive because they are --

-- archetypal.

If I don't like Neil Sedaka, I can haul my ass down to the music shop and get some Nina Simone or Brahms or Duke Ellington.

True across all the forms you list is the range of choices.

Dr. Weird has it right -- there's a strong smell of moralism and "kids these days" and "America is now decadent" driving the objections on this post.

Hips are hips and are not decade-specific.

And these are after all, high school kids. Many would be 18 and 19 years old.

There's a scene in CRIME AND PUNISHMENT relatively early on in which a man consumed with frustration and narrow anger thrashes a horse. The scene is remorselessly violent and repugnant.

I think some of the posters on this thread forget that 'art' lives across that whole range, and includes crass commercialization that you mention in your post, and also controversial and unpleasant realms as well -- places "where the ragged people go" in Paul Simon's phrase.

If the moralistic energy were taken away from some posters' objections to "freakdancing" here, their arguments would be filleted.

[NashVegas]

258. No, They Thrive Because They Are Pushed By Marketing Forces

And MTV is nothing if not a marketing force. That Verizon banner in the background pretty much says it all.

FYI, through my work, I have direct knowledge who how and why some things make it to the mainstream and some don't. (PM if you want creds.) Granted, if something had no true appeal, there would be no way to make money off of it, and therefor wouldn't stick around.

As you said, if you don't like Neil Sedaka, you can haul your ass down to the record store. A 13 year old who wants to attend a school-sponsored social function, but doesn't wish to engage in freak dancing, has much more limited choices. They can go and stand on the sidelines, they can allow peer pressure to engage in behavior they aren't comfortable with, or they can blow the dance off entirely. It takes a remarkably strong young individual to go against their peers without coming to grief over it.

Adults who have no wish to be subjected to these displays are stuck in the position of chaperoning. Simon's "ragged people" are adults who aren't pressuring others to go along with them.

If these kids want to leave the dance and screw each others' brains out, they're welcome to. If that's not their intention, this so-called "expression" if anything, devalues sexuality, reduces it to little more than getting a snack out of the fridge. And those posting in this thread who have experience with the phenomena seem to confirm this.

Ever read Brave New World? The whole point of encouraging widespread, casual activity was to devalue sexuality and remove it as a tool for subversion. It was a measure to control the population, just as much as conservative attempts to put a complete lid on sexuality are.

[saltpoint]

264. Well, we part company on why things survive.

I say they are archetypal. I stand on Jung's shoulders there, and his work appears to me to be more enduring and compelling than the public relations people at Verizon.

I don't dispute your claim on MTV, but I don't have cable so I really don't watch it. I'm from a generation which did not require spoon-fed attendant visuals to imagine a context for a song.

While I'm aware of and distrustful of corporate aspects of why some things make it and others might not, I don't see it as holding primacy at the nerve-ending level of most art, whether of this century or any other. The Medici bankrolled Renaissance painters, Budweiser pops for the Stones' world tour. But my response rises unbidden from some other place than those corporate offices and connects to something much greater than myself.

I also don't dispute your claim about activity that makes some kids uncomfortable. But it is isolative to suggest that sexual grinding is the active agent of that discomfort. Any peer pressure that reduces individual choices is questionable at best, but genitals aren't the active agents here, either. Disregard and indignity are more pervasive and not necessarily sex-related. That is the greater, more urgent target, but many posters here want it narrowed to "dry humping."

High school kids often act in unkind ways toward their peers, and many kids are victimized by that practiced, almost institutionalized unkindness. I would rather Mr. Bennett cancel activities based on his objection to that unkindess than ban dances because a few kids are freak dancing. As it stands, it is an administrative over-reaction that suspends privilege without clarifying responsibility.

I stand by my position that many posters' comments here are moralistic.

[bloom]

281. And some people have a problem with ethics and morality.

I suppose perpetrators would like to get rid of laws, as well. (Would make their life easier, eh).

Gonzales made a convincing argument for some people that either torture isn't really torture or if it is- it is Ok because of x.y,z. I see the same types of justification here.

[redqueen]

284. Bravo!

"Gonzales made a convincing argument for some people that either torture isn't really torture or if it is- it is Ok because of x.y,z. I see the same types of justification here."

What I don't understand for the LIFE of me is WHY people would defend this.

At least when the subject was torture, the defenders had a goal in mind, that being the disclosure or secrets about the enemy.

What I'd really LOVE to know is what's the goal of people claiming this type of 'dancing' should be allowed at school funcitons?

[wuushew]

289. I really don't think you can equate the two

Torture is pretty much a cultural universal. No one likes getting attacked by dogs or having their genitals electrocuted. I think most of humanity agrees on the vileness of war, murder or crimes of violence.

However the tone of your post seems to discount any concept of relativism in this matter. Not only can viewpoints differ from the point of national identity as illustrated by Caribbean culture but also that of age. Do you view this style of dance as silent victimization where a female student is unable to extricate herself? If that is the case then a crime has been committed and action should be taken. However I fail to see the point of anyone punishing acts of consensual behavior.

[regnaD kciN]

293. No question there...

These kids would be f***ing like rabbits on their own.

It seems like many adults forget what puberty is. When the hormones start flowing (and, nowadays, that's likely to be 12 or even younger), adolescents start wanting to have sex. It's actually completely natural, on the biological level, to start mating as soon as one is developmentally able to bear or father children. If there's any external "pressure" here, it's from parents arguing that it's better to wait for sexual intimacy (and, on a psychological level, it may well be, but it certainly isn't what the adolescent's instincts are telling him or her to do, and it's thus no less "unnatural," even if it may be beneficial in the long run).

[phylny]

265. You're absolutely right!

I HAVE teenaged girls, and I talk to other parents at times. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, over the last six months:

"He broke up with her because she wouldn't put out."

"He told her that if she didn't want to give him a blow-job, that he'd have no problems finding a girl who did."

I have a constant conversation with my girls regarding boys and sex, regarding what sex means to boys.

I have no problem with sexual activity - but not at this age. Sure, everyone has a sex drive, and it's normal and healthy. But my argument is that in many cases, sex is so very different for boys and girls when they're teenagers. Sorry to generalize, and maybe I'm not being fair, but boys don't generally think, "Gee, I hope I don't hurt her feelings!" or "I know this means she loves me!"

There are many, many reasons for someone to wait, including prevention of STDs (and possible infertility that may result from some STDs), avoidance of pregnancy, avoiding having to make a heartbreaking decision if you do become pregnant, concentrating on schoolwork and those things that will benefit your future, delaying sexual activity until you're married, or at least until you're able to make decisions and are ready to have a baby, or deal with the consequences of pregnancy.

And yes, we discuss birth control and the need to protect yourself.

This world is very, very different than the world I grew up in. To act as though it isn't is unrealistic.

[LostinVA]

183. I Just Called My Mother

Who went to high school in the late 50s and very early 60s, and asked her what would have happened if a boy had reached under a girl's skirt on the dance floor of a school dance: Mind you, she went to a very large, diverse, pretty progressive high school for the times. Her answer: the boy would have definitely been slapped, thrown out of the dance, and maybe expelled.

Were the 50s the "golden age"? GOD KNOW. We never, ever want them back, but I do think things were different then. I went to the same HS in the late 70s, early 80s, and the same thing would have happened then.

Watch the movie "Thirteen." It's scary as hell, and per my relatives who are that age, way too true.

For the record, I don't have kids, so you can't brand me an overprotective parent.

man, let the kids be kids.

[DrWeird]

203. Yeah, your mother.

First off, there's probably a million things your mom did as a teenager that she'd never tell you about. Secondly, if you really think there's more stuff going on nowadays then in the fifties, I've got a bridge to sell you.

"man, let the kids be kids."

That's my point exactly.

[LostinVA]

232. You Went Too Far

I'm sure my mom did stuff she didn't tell me, but guess what? That's not what we're fucking talking about here. We're talking about if kids got away with this in the 50s, specifically diddling on the dance floor, and the answer was no. Of course kids fooled around then... that's not the discussion. the WHOLE discussion is WHAT IS PUBLICLY APPROPRIATE. And, for your information, my mom was very frank about what she did and did not do as a teenager --it's called sex education and good parenting. So, whatever the hell you want to say to ME, say to me, but you went over the line by implying my mother was some slut. Got it?

And yeah, man, let them be kids. Not kids that are being pushed into adult behavior too soon. Sterling's post was dead one. It is NOT RW talking points. I warrant I have as much if not more liberal street cred than you.

seriously, flame away, because I'm leaving this thread. Too many people are getting nasty... you KNOW you stepped over the line.

[StuckinKS]

188. I think I'm correct in assuming

that grandma and grandpa's principal also banned grandpa diddling grandma on the dance floor. So in that same vein, it is appropriate to ban "freaky" dancing at a school dance.

I imagine grandpa and grandma would be banned from a lot of dances now if they got caught diddling.

The comparisons to Elvis also don't ring true for me. Elvis' pelvic movements were designed to incite sexual urges in young people so that the music would be more provacative and, thus, popular. Freaky dancing is those sexual urges being acted upon and put on display for the entire school. Big difference.

[chenGOD]

279. The 'freak' is not just the usual bump and grind...

Think about a girl bent over at the waist and grinding her hips and ass back into the guy's pelvis....with another guy standing with his groin in front of her head.
Or a girl sandwiched in between 2 guys. Both of them trying their damndest to thrust their erections through several layers of clothing and into the girl's orifices.
That's what 'freakin' is nowadays.

Personally, although i don't approve of 14 year olds doing it, I think at the high school level, as long as no one is forced into doing it, it's wrong to ban it.

[nibbana]

193. Let's burn some Beatle records!!! Get a Hair Cut you f'n hippie

LOL...

[regnaD kciN]

295. Talk about timing!

I'm at a FedEx Kinkos, and just as I scrolled to your post, their in-house music went to...a Beatles song (Don't Bother Me)! Quite a coincidence.

[sjgman9]

184. This is nuts

As a college student, id go out to bars all the time and dance like that. I had (and still) have a blast doing it. Its what college students and adults(myself at 24) do at clubs and some bars these days.

As a high school student, no, we didnt dance like that. I went to high school from 95-99. Ok, some kids didnt dance like that, but some did. It could not have been as bad as whats going on now.

If i were a parent of a teenage girl, I would definitely not want her getting dry humped or grinded on the dance floor. Definitely not in middle school or high school dances. If she goes to a teen dance club, its her judgement call.

The last thing we need is the conservative fundies using this as a way to put their theocratic agenda forward. Us liberals have standards too.

I would say that using flashlights or stopping music would be a good way to cool stuff down. Or just play the barney song, or some cory thing like i got boots for walking or something, or hell, a country song

[LostinVA]

187. "Us Liberals Have Standards Too"

Excellent point! As well as the point of the fundies using this.

[Squatch]

6. Is this 1950? What's next, dancing with a baloon between partners?

[Sin]

32. hehe yea

And the chaperone's walking up to couples dancing to close parting them and saying "Leave Room for the Holy Spirit"

[JVS]

101. Why not? That's how people screw now

[jandrok]

7. I dunno.....we might need to send in Kevin Bacon

The part of me that understands teenagers says "Let 'em dance, quit worryin'".

On the other hand, the parent part of me says "Get yer grubby hands off of my daughter, you got no business dancin' that way. And have her home by ten or I'll load the shotgun with rock salt."

My daughter will be 9 this year. Those days aren't too far off.

[LostinVA]

10. It is exactly like simulated sex

And my 13-year-old niece no longer goes to school dances because of this. She says it makes her uncomfortable watching it, and most boys EXPECT you to do this on the dance floor.

Sorry -- I'm as liberal as they come, and think this country's pseudo-Puritanism is insane, but I back the principal on this one.

[Demit]

12. I agree with you. I don't have a problem with a school setting standards.

that's what people in authority--vis a vis children and teenagers--are supposed to do. This way kids grow up learning what's not acceptable to do in public.

That said, it is then the kids' job to try to circumvent authority, and sneak in rebellious behavior until they're caught. :) In the early 60's kids called certain slow dancing "grinding" (tho it probably was a milder form)--and the priests (it was Catholic school) would come by and tap the boy on the shoulder so he would straighten up. Twas ever thus.

[JackintheGreen]

15. I have to agree.

Limits must be set low enough so that transgressions of those limits (as are an inevitable and healthy part of growing up) don't exceed reason. Frankly,I lost my patience when I saw my kindergarteners (students, not MY kids :) doing it. From here there is nowhere else to go except:

Crotchless panties and chaps w/o pants.

They gotta leave something for us parents!

[noamnety]

14. I'm all for the standards

This is pretty simple - it's basically mutual masturbation - I'm surprised anyone thinks that's appropriate at a high school activity.

[saltpoint]

255. I would prefer that to --

-- standardized testing.

[HuckleB]

16. Does this mean what I think it means? -- Le, le, le, le.... le Chic...

Le Chic is on the comeback trail!?

;) :)

[MADem]

174. ANYONE REMEMBER "the BUMP?"

That was the granddaddy of this movement...then came the LAMBADA.

Let's make them listen to those old songs, over and over and over again. Maybe they'll get sick of the whole concept and go back to the minuet on their own!

The only way this nonsense is going to stop is if some reasonably "cool" pop stars emerge who prosletize a message that it is NOT fashionable to act or dress like a pig. Not these Christian rock types, someone who can actually sing and dance who sends a message that you should be a bit picky in choosing your partner, and in how you present yourself, and not put your shit out there for all to see, because it's YOURS and it has value.

When adults try to push the issue, we are derided as "uncool" or we just don't "get it." It will have to come from them. If enough kids get uncomfortable at these rather unseemly displays, they'll force the change on their own. In the meantime, nothing wrong with adults being meanies and laying down ground rules--it's what they DO, and it is as old as time.

[StuckinKS]

19. With this type of dirty dancing the term "frottage"

or dry humping comes to mind. My step kids were doing it at school dances back in the 80s.

I consider myself a bit of a libertine but I also believe that some things that are appropriate for adults are not always appropriate for children. As a parent, I strive to teach my children a proper code of conduct. Teenagers have always pushed the limits (it is their job) so I am grateful for sensible school policies. I would also welcome a well-intentioned phone call from any chaperone who observes my child either changing into skanky clothes or humping their dance partner on the floor. After all, it takes a village.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

22. with that logic

we should just let them come to school naked, to dissipate the sexual tension.

[LostinVA]

26. Kids Educated Correctly

Will not be "freaking" either in school or at home -- at least not when they're 14-years-old. Studies have pr oven that kids given proper sex education, guidance by parents, and who also have a good sex image, will NOT be screwing around before they're ready. Just look at most Western European countries, and compare their teenage sex/pregnancy/std stats with us. Kids shouldn't have sex until they are emotionally ready, and allowing "freaking" at school sure as hell doesn't help parents who are trying to raise self-confident, sexually responsible teens.

That's the main reason I loathe the abstinence "sex education programs (oxymoron!) this administration is foisting upon our kids. Sex is NOT dirty or anything to be ashamed of. But sex also shouldn't be treated casually by kids.

Like a poster up thread, I've been a bit of a libertine in my time, but sexual depravity should be saved for adults, dammit!

[LizW]

23. I don't want my son "dissipating sexual tension" in school

Call me old fashined, but when people have orgasms from grinding each other's genitals on the dance floor, it's not dancing, it's sex. If you allow that at school dances, I don't know where you go from there. Better be distributing condoms at the door as they leave.

[melnjones]

99. I agree... nt

[NashVegas]

219. That's What the Bathroom's For!

:D

[KansDem]

24. Keeeryst Almighty! Get sex off the dance floor...!

...and put it back where it belongs: in the back seat of a Buick!
(/sarcasm)

I'm in complete agreement with you, flygal. As the father of a soon-to-be 13-year old young woman, this concerns me. My daughter has already been to a couple of dances, but when she talks about it, she mentions she has only danced with her girlfriends. The boys, apparently, just stand around in their groups, talking among themselves, and it seems very little interaction between the two occurs. Soon, though, I imagine the two sexes will "discover" each other and I wonder if "freak" dancing, or some derivative, will then raise its ugly head.

But thanks to DU, I'll be prepared!

edited to correct preposition...

[Hobarticus]

25. 2005: The Year of Non-Issues eom

[LostinVA]

27. This is not a non issue at all

The US lags far behind most industrialized countries when it comes to teenage pregnancy, std rates, etc. FAR behind. And, girls often take the brunt of this: being forced into an image or behavior they don't want to be part of, getting pregnant and dropping out of school, etc. And, often these are kids on the low end of the income scale, so the cycle is continued.

There are many important issues in 2005: Iraq, the coming draft, the economy, etc., but I sure don't consider raising and helping the kids of this country as a "non issue." I talk to my niece and nephew several times a week, and am very aware of what their worries and pressures are, and this is one of them.

[Hobarticus]

30. Respectfully disagree...

I don't see the connection between banning lewd dancing and helping teens discover their self-worth.

Your involvement with your niece and nephew is very important and kudos for that. It's far more effective in shaping their values than their principal's edicts, wouldn't you agree?

Teens learn their values at home and in the classroom, not on the dance floor. Kids aren't stupid.

Reversing US teens' slide into a vicious circle of teen pregnancy and poverty is indeed important, but this isn't the way to go about it.

Legislating morality and "proper" behavior is another easy method of avoiding tackling the larger issues.

[LostinVA]

33. Kids Aren't Stupid And They Learn Values at Home

But peer pressure is a bad thing. You can teach your kids everything you want, but if they go to school and see behavior tacitly approved by adults... what happens? Behavior that even if they don't join in, they have to observe.

And, of course there is a link between the banning public lewd behavior AT SCHOOL and SCHOOL FUNCTIONS and self worth. Being called a bitch and a ho in the hallways, and being told you have nice tits, and being used as a prop for masturbation against on the dance floor doesn't diminish your self worth? Of course it does! Just like having a sexist/racist/homophobic working atmosphere does the same thing to a smaller extent to adults. And, these are kids.

And, no one is advocating legislating any kind of behavior. I'm dead set against that, and I never advocated that.

And, reversing teens' vicious circle is done this way -- it's worked for Germany, the Scandinavian countries, etc.

If you answer and I don't, I'm not dissing you< hobarticus -- I have to go to work!

[Squatch]

36. Peer pressure is a bad thing?

Depends on your peers, I s'pose.

[Hobarticus]

168. I think you're reaching, and making more of this than needs to be...

But, it's cool.

Have a good day at work!

[flygal]

95. Do you have kids?

As a mother I have to hope there are some boundaries being placed in public. As a taxpayer I would hope the public schools set these boundaries and have "fair" punishment. This isn't book burning or censorship - it's saying no sex on the dance floor at a school function. It's just like saying no to ass-less pants at school!

They will have boundaries placed on them in the work place - why not teach them they will have to adjust. When my kids are 18 they can pay their admission to a "freak on" dance club and then I'll shut up about it to them.

[Hobarticus]

147. Sex on the dance floor? Ass-less pants? Overreacting, maybe?

If you want a principal foisting his values upon your kids at his will, be my guest.

I'm not condoning this dancing. I'm opposed to overly-zealous school adminsitrators.

There's a huge difference.

[redqueen]

156. What's the difference?

If you're opposed to a principle banning this type of dancing at school functions, that pretty much means you're condoning this type of dancing, at least at school, between high schoolers, does it not?

[Hobarticus]

166. No, it doesn't....

NOT banning this kind of thing is NOT the same as encouraging it.

It's not that simple.

There's little point in continuing this; you'll never convince me, and I'll never convince you.

[redqueen]

169. I'm not trying to convince, I'm trying to understand.

You seem to be saying that you can somehow not condone something but simultaneously not make it against the rules. I don't understand that.

To me, if there's no rule against something, that's the same as condoning it as acceptable behavior.

Note that I have not used the word 'encourage'. I don't know where you got that from.

:shrug:

[NashVegas]

221. If Not the Principal - Who?

Parents who are too wrapped up in their nights at the gym, or whatever, or single parents who are already overwhelmed as it is?

I saw got my first look at so-called freak or phreak dancing about a month ago (I don't watch MTV and always enjoyed dancing too much to waste a minute in the meat markets). Two fully adult couples were having a good time together and my main thought was that they were all going to go home together and have a really good time.

Now I open this thread and find out what I saw was not "the vertical expression of a horizontal desire," but fashion? How disappointing.

Someone needs to confront these kids. Someone needs to walk straight up to them when they're engaging in this oh-so-less-than-subtle form of expression and say it straight out: "if you wanna fuck, fuck. But take it some place else. If you don't want to fuck, cut the crap."

If their parents are not willing to take the time to properly explain why it's not appropriate, the principal is perfectly right to take a stand.

[Cocoa]

29. time for a Footloose remake

or sequel. You know it's coming eventually anyway.

[Moochy]

178. Kick up your sunday shoes!

Would you rather our kids were doing this ???

[Zynx]

35. Good

This isn't "just another type of dirty dancing" and kids who are not old enough to legally do anything sexual with each other shouldn't be doing this sort of thing on school property.

[DrWeird]

38. OH WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!!!

I must have stumbled into a time warp. It seems to be 1952 and the taliban are still in power.

[Zynx]

43. Have you ever seen what this actually is?

If you made a video of middle schoolers doing it and put it on your computer, the police would probably arrest you for kid porn.

This is one part of "liberals" that I really hate. Kneejerk tolerence for expression, even when it is completely, utterly wrong for kids to be engaging in.

[DrWeird]

45. This is the part of conservatives that I hate.

Ridiculous exaggerations, knee jerk tolerance for censorship, phony morality, preoccupation with other people's sexuality...

[underthedome]

59. Yes, when children are involved, yes.

[Bertha Venation]

61. Freedom of expression for the sexuality of children?

Children have a sexuality that they ought to be free to express? The pervs are lining up as we type.

[DrWeird]

68. Teenagers.

Yes, teenagers should be able to have sex with who they want and dance anyway that they want to.

Of course, they do anyway.

[LostinVA]

112. Dancing How They Want

In a club? Up to the club owner. At home? Up to the patents. Ina school? Hell no. You would be fired for doing that at a work function, and it's the same thing: school is their workplace. Certain places and situations have boundaries and rules, and should. If you freaked a coworker at a work-controlled party, you would be fired. Same thing. they can screw their brains out in the proper setting, but not at school. And, it is grossly unfair for the kids who feel intimidated by it to have to watch. Like another poster said, when they turn 18, they can freak their little hearts out at a club.

[DrWeird]

127. Apparently they can't.

I'm sure there's a number of 18 year olds in that high school. Plenty of 17 year olds to, and frankly there isn't much difference.

[shadowknows69]

142. hey, I was getting laid on a regular basis when I was 16

do most of our children have sex by then? probably. should they or should we have? absolutely not. despite the fact it happens the majority of children aren't emotionally equipped to deal with such adult situations. the statistics on teen pregnancy and std rates over the years don't lie. the curve just seems to be getting younger and younger. It's not just school dances obviously. I hope I won't get booted for being overly conservative on this matter but despite our love of tolerance and freedom we enter a whole different world when it comes to raising our children. I would never advocate hiding a child away from the ways of the world but I don't think it's censorship or bad parenting or being a raging neo-con to somewhat restrict access to that world. <<<TANGENT ALERT!!!LOL>>>
now a disclaimer. I don't have a kid of my own so now you may accuse me of not knowing sh*t. I have a stepson who I had to quite unexpectedly take into my home on a permanent basis soon after I married his mother. Long story. I did my best to raise him as my own and he didn't like a lot of my rules. As an 11 year old I wouldn't let him watch certain movies, listen to certain music or have certain privledges as far as staying home alone and running the roads as many of his friends did. I looked back on my life and realized what actions I'd taken that influenced some of my decisions and I attempted to protect him from some of the stupider ones. example. despite that I bregrudgingly let him watch the south park tv show *actually a lot tamer then than it is today) but I wouldn't take him to the movie because it was rated R and I had forewarning of some of the scenes. he didn't like it but he didn't fight long and I think he respected my reasons. for all my good deeds though his father let him rent it the following vacation. cest la vie. i had a lot of those examples. so I guess I'm conflicted after all that babbling. lol. judge me du. am I a repug parent?? I hope not but I'll take it if it means I taught something enduring to my stepson or another child of our future. serious I'd love some feedback. from mothers in particular. or you can just tell me to take it to the family and parenting forum lol.

[Sterling]

233. "at a club."

You missed this part.

[Squatch]

46. Guilty as charged

"Kneejerk tolerence for expression"

[DrWeird]

48. LOL.

That's some funny stuff.

[KittyWampus]

110. One Can Only Hope Some Posters Never Have Children Or Are In A

position to influence their behavior.

Dogs shit pretty much anywheres, so we should allow teenagers to do the same... why limit their excrectory experiences?

[DrWeird]

128. One can only hope some poster are never in positions of authority.

I'd assume they'd never been teenagers themselves once, if that were possible.

Perhaps some need to be shipped off to a convalescent center, where they can day dream about flappers bumping and grinding to ragtime and complaining about kids these days.

[Sterling]

202. I agree I hope no one who lets kids freak dance is ever in charge of my

kids school. It's not about being square it's about the sexualization of children.

[saltpoint]

240. Do you really want an answer to that?

I think it's important to guard against -- and always question -- the idea that sex is sin.

That's the underlying fear that drives the principal's decision to ban freakdancing.

It is the impulse by moralistic adults -- not moral, but moralistic - to control instinct.

Implicit in this is the wish to control that instinct arbitrarily, especially when it involves sex.

[shadowknows69]

134. hear hear! n/t

[hangtotheLEFT]

140. DON'T HATE ME...

...just cuz I can freak....and, I would bet, you can't.

Try it, you might like it. Don't worry, no ones looking.

& PS....yes, in our current state, the police probably WOULD arrest you for a video of FULLY DRESSED minors DANCING, charging ya with kiddie porn. Congratulations...you've just stumbled blindly on the fuckin problem.

[redqueen]

41. Seems reasonable to me.

[barackmyworld]

72. As a teen that went to a lot of school dances...

The people that dance the most inappropriately are the ones that are already having some kind of sexual activity. And it's not EVERYONE. I went to probably 10 formal/semiformal dances in my high school career, at different high schools, and there is always a range of activities. A lot of girls will just dance in circles, a lot of guys clear away a space to show off their break dancing/footwork/etc. The kids getting really freaky are usually going out anyways!

Don't worry about your 10 year old. In my experience I rarely saw even freshmen/sophomores doing this.

edit: Let me add that I went to an inner-city public school in Chicago.

[renaissanceguy]

158. It is the older teens

who engage in grinding. BUT, it's not most of them. It's just some. The rest (based on experience) pretty much laugh at those who are doing it because they look so ridiculous.

But I think the real problem here lies with the parents. Parents need to trust their children. Contrary to popular belief, the more parents grasp their children tightly, the more the children will rebel. This is not to say that there shouldn't be rules. Of course there should be rules. But human sexuality is a perfectly natural thing. And if parents try to suppress their child's natural development, the child will only rebel, and that can lead to many other problems down the road. Instead of restricting, how about TALKING to your kids for once? How about talking WITH them, not AT them. Show them a little respect and dignity, and they will return it tenfold.

[LostinVA]

160. My Niece is in 7th Grade

And she says it goes on at her dances also, and girls are pressured into being "cool: and doing it. If they don't, the boys AND many of them girls call them dykes, etc...... also, sometimes boys come up to the "uncool" (re: non-freakin' girls) and grind them against their lockers.

BTW, this is in a medium-sized, very middle class area, with a large military population.

[MADem]

192. That sounds like assault to me, consummated by battery

Those "uncool" girls should sue the fuckers...then they can take the cash they get and spend it on an "uncool" college education at a good school, and have those grinding losers applying for jobs in their corporation down the road. That's bullying, plain and simple, disguised as fashion.

When pressure is being applied to children to behave in ways that make them feel uncomfortable or attacked, that's just not right. And no one has the right to go rubbing up against them, unless they consent to it, of course!

[phylny]

266. You GO, MADem!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[many a good man]

76. Dry-humping in public

should not be tolerated.

[redqueen]

80. You'd think this was a complex issue based on the arguments here.

:wtf:

[elaineb]

256. Not complex at all. YOU are making it complex.

Simulated sex is not sex.

If you think simulated sex is equivalent to sex, then the issue does become VERY complex, but only because you made it so by equating the two.

Boy, if you were the head of the Department of Homeland Morality, you'd really have your job cut out for you, because as other posters to this thread have pointed out, dancing almost always has an element of sexuality to it (sorry to tell you). One-to-one dancing anyway.

So someone would have to make a judgment call as to how much is too much. Which society does and is doing. Without keeping score it looks like your "side" is winning, but I just wanted to put my own opinion out there.

Oh, and by the way, I really think this type of cultural expression is self-regulating and doesn't really need a higher authority to impose artificial (and necessarily complex) boundaries. Other posters have pointed out that some people who engage in "freakin'" are made to feel embarrassed and stop on their own. The boundaries of cultural expression are cyclical. Remember the "virgin" movement of the 1990's? (heck, I dunno, maybe it's still in vogue) I honestly believe that this was kids setting their OWN boundaries, because they'd become disillusioned by the sexual mores around them. Trust me, it'll happen again, as will unbridled sexual expression. Many times over.

[redqueen]

285. No, I'm not making it complicated.

I think it is CLEARLY inappropriate for school dances and that it's fine that the principal is banning it.

How is that complex?

You seem to support the 'free market' solution. Let them do it, they'll be 'embarassed' (HAH!) and stop on their own.

If that's how you truly feel, why have laws against having sex with your relatives? Surely those that do it will feel bad and quit, right?

:eyes:

Honestly... I have seen the STUPIDEST arguments in this thread that I have ever seen on DU, and that's saying a LOT.

[phasev]

84. the principal was right

nobody should ever be subjected to see wannabe gangbangers and their wannabe prostitute girlfriends do pelvic grinds in a public venue. leave that shit at home.

[Squatch]

87. Where 12 year olds can have actual sex instead of the simulated kind

[redqueen]

100. One cannot control what their parents allow them to do.

While at school, the administrators of the school bear that burden.

God forbid they should try to do a better job than some parents.

[phasev]

104. yes

when they have underaged sex in their bedroom then that becomes the responsibility of the parents. the principal was just protecting himself.

[Squatch]

106. So, this entire argument is all about shifting blame

[redqueen]

108. Where did you get 'shifting blame' from?

The school is responsible for what the teenagers are allowed to do while at school. Is that so hard to understand?

[noamnety]

113. what are you implying?

You seem to be implying that if they do this at dances once a month, they will be less inclined to have sex at home during the other 29 days a month. I doubt there's any truth to that.

As a teacher, I don't volunteer to chaperone dances, because I find it offensive. There's no part of my job description that involves watching people grind their genitals into each other. If it were part of my job description, I'd file a harrassment charge. If teachers acted that way at a school dance, they'd be fired on the spot.

If a 40 year old man ground his genitals into a 14 year old's pelvis, you'd call the police - because it's a sexual act. Teachers get fired for having kids sit in their laps inappropriately - even with clothes on - because we recognize that as a sexual act. The school doesn't have the legal authority to prevent stuff like that from happening at teen's homes, but they do have a legal responsibility to prevent it on school grounds, at school functions.

It's not about sex being dirty or unnatural. It's about the appropriateness of having sexual encounters which are supervised by school employees. As one of those school employees, I don't want to have anything to do with supervising rutting kids. No state employee should have to do that.

[DrWeird]

138. No, I'd call the police because it's rape.

I haven't got a problem with people committing acts of sex.

As for "rubbing genitals together" which so many people in this thread have a problem with. Did they never slow dance in high school?

[eek MD]

227. The principal was wrong

Imho..........you shouldn't punish the entire school for the actions of a few. hasn't anyone heard of detention/suspension?...or why not just kick the troublemakers out of the dang dance??

[knitter4democracy]

259. When most of the kids are doing it, the best thing is to shut it down

Having actually chaperoned school dances when I was a high school teacher four years ago, I tell you that it's way beyond anything we had when I was in high school in the early nineties. Cut a couple holes in their clothes, and it's sex.

Do you really want adults standing around watching that crap? I would go around (granted, it was in Catholic schools) and break kids up. I always warned my students ahead of time that I would, and they usually got upset. However, my argument is that if an adult chaperoning the dance lets it go on, that's sicker than breaking it up. That would make all of us perverts. When I asked my kids if they'd like to watch the parents and teachers go at it in the same way, they were all disgusted. It's a school, for goodness sakes! It's as close to sex as they can get, and often it's also used to intimidate girls. We threw one boy out because he would get another guy to trap a girl in between them, someone who didn't want to but couldn't get away until I walked up and broke it up. Yeah, let's just stand back and let that happen.

[bloom]

288. It sounds to me

like there should be police at these dances. Would make it easier to arrest people. OR like the cops who sit there so the traffic slows down.

"he would get another guy to trap a girl in between them, someone who didn't want to but couldn't get away "


Anyone defending that is defending a crime.

[gorbal]

111. In other news

In other news, teenagers are having less actual "sex" then they used to...now we know why:)

I'm glad they found something knew to shock parent's with, and here I thought we had run out of ideas in the 90's.:)

[underthedome]

119. Those surveys aren't worth sh*t

I remember how everyone would put down just the opposite of what they did.

Question: How often do you use Crack Cocaine?
Answer: I'm on it right now

Question: How often do you have Sex?
Answer: Never. And definitely not last night in the back seat of my parents Sedan.

[MARALE]

114. My 16 year old boy

Does not like to go to dances now because of this behavior on the dance floor. It is hard enough to go to a dance on a first date and watch this go on. It should not go on in school in front of people. He said it was disgusting and he is pretty liberal. If they want to go to their cars or whatever, that is fine with me. From what he discribed, it was inappropriate. He was there with his girlfriend of over a year, so it wasn't that he was shy with his date, they both were disgusted by it. There needs to be rules about decorum at these schools.

[gorbal]

116. You do have a point

I used to love going to dance clubs, but the last few times I went anonymous guys would come right up to me and start grinding into my backside like it was just everyday business of theirs. I would try to move, but they would keep coming. It was really strange, LOL! I'm not sure if I object to it but I understand whay some do.

:)

[redqueen]

118. I don't understand how that's a laughing matter.

I've been at clubs and have been accosted by people in the way you describe, but I was angered and had them bounced from the club after they didn't take the "NO" and "STOP IT" hints.

[gorbal]

120. It probably wasn't as bad a situation for me

You must have been in a worse enviroment than I was in. I was just dealing with the regular behavior in the dance clubs these days, it's different than it used to be. If I moved to the other side of the room a different guy would come up to me. I couldn't have all of them bounced so I grabbed a lady friend and danced with her.

[redqueen]

122. Lord almighty... is that how it is now?

I used to love to go dancing, but if that's how it is I don't think I'd enjoy myself.

How sad.

[gorbal]

123. Go to gay clubs

If you want to Dance, go to gay clubs, Sure there is bumping and grinding but people are more respectful. (at least in my experience)

[redqueen]

130. I find that so very sad.

[NashVegas]

231. or "alternative music" clubs

I used to go to QE2 in Albany on weekends, in the 1980s. 4 straight hours of the Cure, New Order, Bob Marley, Blondie, PiL, Echo, etc. People who went there went out to hear the music they liked, to hang out, and to dance. Find some place like that that plays the modern equivalent and you'll probably find a pretty cool hang-out.

If you wanted to pick someone up badly enough, you could, but it wasn't the main reason why people were there. Sure there was some brushing, mostly unintentional, mostly just in the course of working the floor, but like gay clubs, people were respectful. This was our club and no one wanted to piss in the pool.

[Steely_Dan]

177. I keep thinking...

...about that SNL skit.

-P

[phylny]

267. Shoot, the last time that happened to me

was on the #7 subway train in New York ... 20 years ago.

I guess I gotta get out more! ;)

[hangtotheLEFT]

132. GRIND ON, CHILDREN

"OK kids....you've all been bad, so no dances for you!"

So, on the night of the cancelled Sadie Hawkins dance, the students, with nothing to do, threw the party of the year. ANd screwed each others' brains out since the parent's were at a

Will adults every learn how to properly deal with the young'ins?!?!?!?!?

PS...it's DANCING. COuld we NOT completely revert into 50's monsters?!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?


EXPRESS YOURSELF...DON'T REPRESS YOURSELF

[DrWeird]

135. Great post.

Welcome.

[redqueen]

137. Hi there, sockpuppet! ;)

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[siliconefreak]

141. you people crack me up

Or at least some of you do. The people who are the most "freaked" about this situation aren't the kids - it's the adults who just can't stand to acknowledge that people are SEXUAL BEINGS.

The more openness we have about human sexuality, the better off we'll all be, in my opinion.

[LostinVA]

150. That's Not the Case At All

We ARE admitting kids are sexual beings -- that's the point. I also believe that most of us on this post (myself included) are advocating being very open about sexuality. We have stated it is not dirty or unnatural, etc. What we have been stating is what is appropriate public behavior: how freakin' at dances is not good public behavior,a nd is not fair to the kids who are made uncomfortable by it, or feel pressured to imitate it. That's it. As I stated up thread, this behavior would be inappropriate at a work-related party, and is just as inappropriate at a school-related activity. If they want to screw, they can screw, just not on the dance floor.

[Zynx]

247. Quite frankly, there is more to life than sex.

In public or in the workplace, and I consider school to be a workplace, what business do sexual acts have there?

[CoffeeCat]

146. A dancing ban? Did we learn nothing from "Footloose" ? (n/t)

[neweurope]

157. Hey, slowly there, PLEASE! Your country brought us Woodstock...

long time ago... I still see the pictures. We loved you for it. What IS going on in your country right now? It's as if the whole country is shifting to the conservative side. I find it scary.

Don't forget to outlaw sexy clothes and Make-Up...

-----------------

Remember Fallujah!

[LostinVA]

161. I'm Not Conservative

Far from it. And, I am far from being a prude. I think there are alot of thoughtful posts on this subject that show that -- from everyone.

[neweurope]

162. So you probably don't think I'm thoughtful. I apologize and withdraw.

---------------------------

Remember Fallujah!

[LostinVA]

180. When did I say that???

When did I say that? I'm saying that some posters are labeling those of us opposed as being conservative, or uncool, or whatever,,,which is close to the point you were making. What we are saying is that preteens and teens have to learn socially acceptable behavior, and this isn't it. It's a PUBLIC SCHOOL dance, not a private function or their homes. Like another poster said, I have no desire to go to a club and watch someone fucking or simulating fucking. There are clubs for that. If these kids want to rent a hall or go to someone's house and freak all night, then let 'em. It's better than wandering the streets.

Going whacko about Janet Jackson's breast or the NFL "Desperate Housewives" spoof IS crazy. Our country is really whacked that way. No arguments from me.

Neweurope -- we're on the same side, trust me!

[Chovexani]

164. As the poet-philosopher Crow T. Robot once said

Don't forget to leave room for the Holy Ghost. :P

[HuckleB]

167. What I don't get is...?

Why these kids are still doing this type of dance? I mean, it was big five years ago, and it should be passe, old-school tripe by now. What's going on?

[redqueen]

175. Do you really think this is correctly known as a 'dance'?

I mean... really?

It's not.

[HuckleB]

181. "Correctly?"

What does that mean? I mean, sure, this might be the replacement for the old suburban white kid's side to side move, made most famous by Courteney Cox in Springsteen's "Dancing in the Dark" video, but, that "non-dance" died a timely death. Why is this one still kicking around?

[redqueen]

182. I mean it's not a 'dance'.

This 'dance' has no steps. It's just girl bends over, boy pretends to eff her from behind. IMO it's just not a dance, period.

[skypilot]

194. That pretty much sums it up.

This is what it looks like for anyone here who doesn't know:

[redqueen]

196. Thanks, skypilot.

[HuckleB]

197. Why not?

Most social "dances" don't have steps anymore. It's all free form. Been that way since the '60s, and probably before. It might not be very creative, but that doesn't mean it's not dance.

[DrWeird]

199. Form of denigration.

It's like people saying "rap isn't music" because they don't like it.

[redqueen]

216. Oh gimme a break.

Freeform dance is somehow analogous to simulating the sex act?

Are you guys high?

[DrWeird]

229. You're the one making the analogy.

Not me.

[redqueen]

286. No, that was HuckleB

"Most social "dances" don't have steps anymore. It's all free form. Been that way since the '60s, and probably before. It might not be very creative, but that doesn't mean it's not dance."

Still not trying too hard?

[gatorboy]

170. Geez, I meant the Elvis comment as a joke...

So uptight in here.....We need some Freak Dancin'! :D

[onenote]

179. a video of dancing do's and dont's

http://www.ljworld.com/section/schools/story/145633


onenote

[gorbal]

249. I insist that everyone see the above video

ROTFL!:thumbsup:

[MojoRoad]

270. Hahahahahhahahah!!!!!

OK, I admit I was dithering between the two sides of this argument (I.e sexual expression in dancing and teenagers VS acceptable public behaviors in teens. That video (above) seals it. It IS Elvis. And the TWIST. And the LIMBADA.... You'll notice when watching that fine example of a yr.2004 50's throwback "educational" film, is that the "proper" dance moves are equated with old 50's sock hop music and the "lude, unacceptable Freaking" is, of course equated with modern stuff the kids are all listening to.

I'm sorry to inform you all (inc. The morality squad and anxious parents) that the social and cultural mores HAVE shifted (mostly) in a more obvious expression of sexuality. Guess what? you did it too w. Elvis, and rock and roll. If you're a little younger, let's say it was Woodstock and "free love", and if you were from an older generation, it was Jazz & "Swing". Or Disco. Or just pick ANY era that there were young people.

Like it or not, the clock cannot be turned back on these things (even with the Fundies having power.) This IS the new reality folks. for me it was nine inch nails. (remember "I want to fuck you like an animal", anyone? I was dancing to that "obscene" music.). So now it's Eminem. So what?

Also, as some posters rightly mentioned, go to ANY Caribbean country (or for that matter most real hip hop clubs right here) and you'll see "freaking" as just normal part of the culture. Just as it's now "normal" in mainstream (North) American culture. You might not like it, but you can bet you parents weren't too thrilled to your "moshing" to metalica or listening to the sex pistols, or the Stones' "brown sugar", or the "twist" or the "Hanky Panky".

Kids (and by Kids I mean Teens) just have found another way to challenge their elders. That is NOT to say ANYONE should be forced to do something they don't want to do. But IF you're going to have a dance, with contemporary music, guess what? The kids are gonna dance to it in a contemporary way, just as they see on MTV. And you know what? The kids are alright.

Here's a quote about the 1930's dance "the Lindy"

The Lindy permitted a physical closeness which to many people at the time appeared to perpetuate a growing (and undesirable) familiarity between men and women. Many people in the 1920's and 30's believed it was drastically altering the very fabric of society. The Lindy added some new twists to the exultation in human physicality/sexuality which had begun in the Roaring 20's. The partners did tricks where the man pulled the woman through his legs, spun her so her skirts flew up in the air, lifted her up so she straddled his waist, and (worse yet!) threw the woman about while she clasped her arms about his waist, her head level to his navel. And for these transgressions against common morality the Lindy was attacked as being dangerously sexual, a threat to the moral fiber of our nation, etc. etc.

...And here's a link to some old 50's educational videos.

http://www.netbroadcaster.com/new/shorts/timecapsule.html#


Cheers,

MojoRoad

[tblue37]

282. Lawrence, Kansas?

Me, too!

[LostinVA]

185. Let's just all put all the emotion aside and put it this way

The dance is in a public forum on public property. Are the kids acting in such a way that would be acceptable in any other public forum: work, the park, the mall, even school itself. Just because it's a fun, social activity doesn't mean common sense gets thrown out of the window. It is a public arena, and alot of kids do NOT like this, and are made very uncomfortable by this. Hell, most adults would be the same way at a private club. Not everyone is into voyeurism. Two adults -- or kids -- dry humping in a public park would find themselves talking to a cop, or at least an irate bystander.

You can have fun, slow dance, and get all tingly without freakin at a school dance. We all did.

And.,.. I think I've had enough of this thread.

[Zynx]

189. Exactly. Sex should be in the private domain.

It has no place in public areas.

[tishaLA]

217. Should could would

Sex has always been public. It's the nature of the beast--even dating back to the glorious 50s when people found their thrill on Blueberry Hill. The pretense of an innocent past when things were behind closed doors is purely mythological.

[Zynx]

244. That doesn't mean I have to see it everywhere I go.

There are some things that just aren't appropriate in public. I have a right not to see obscene behavior when I am in a public area and the majority of those high school students have a right not to be exposed to that sort of activity at a SCHOOL FUNCTION for Christ's sake. There has to be a line somewhere or we might as well just have one big orgy all over the country in every venue.

[Sterling]

200. It's sexual harassment to the kids who are not "freaking"

No kid should be sexualized in this context and no kid should have to be in a room full of freak dancers at a school function.

[DrWeird]

208. Horseshit.

It's no more sexual harrassment than watching cheerleaders.

This is a replay of the Janet Jackson debate only fully clothed.

[Bill Lumbergh]

214. Except that was on a private network

And this is at a PUBLIC school, funded by taxpayer dollars.

[redqueen]

218. Do cheerleaders simulate penetration or oral sex where you went to school?

Seriously, your 'arguments' are going from ridiculous to flat-out ABSURD!

[DrWeird]

225. Yes.

Just like Elvis.

[Sterling]

234. Normally I agree with a lot of what you post but....

You seem to be going way out on a limb here with your logic. Maybe you are just trying to "piss of the parents".

I am pretty rebellious too but when it comes to kids and sex I think this kind of thing is a no brainer. J Jackson was a grown up but the booby flop was still inappropriate in the context. Yes the Viagra ads and beer ads are also inappropriate as well in case you want to mention them as well. It's all part of our culture that places a high value on exploiting everything for profit. Even sexually exploiting children is allowed if it is in the spirit of capitalism.

You need to look at what they play for kids on MTV, what they put in teen mags aimed at young girls, the clothes they advertise in the teen fashion mags. If you don't think their greed behind this kind of thing you are turning a blind eye to what is happening in front of you.

[Jesus H. Christ]

241. Ah, you're offended by Janet Jackson.

Yup, it's entirely inappropriate. And don't get me started on Michaelangelo's David.

Oh, and those Viagra commercials are disgusting. How dare they talk about medicine for urological problems. I say we ban them. And commercials for adult incontinence diapers. And adds for tampons. Oh my God, how is inappropriate is it to be sitting next to a woman and seeing an add for tampons come on TV. What is our world coming too!!?

:eyes:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

248. Didn't SCOTUS Antonin Scalia say he approved of orgies?

I think he said it was a good way to reduce tension in a speech in the UK.

If kids would only listen to the members of the Supreme Court, this would be a more...interesting country.

In a related story, I hear many Baptists won't have sex standing up because their afraid that if someone sees them, they might think they were dancing. (rimshot)

I heard this from a country songwriter in an NPR interview.

I can't believe I kicked this silly story to the top of LBN. This has more posts than any other at the moment. We be animals, hunh?

[tblue37]

277. Exactly.

If you are at work and someone talks or behaves in a sexually suggestive way that makes you uncomfortable, then it is considered sexual harrassment. But a kid, someone who has far less in the way of emotional and psychological defenses, is to be subjected to explicitly sexual behavior by his or her peers, no matter how much it distresses him or her. And I assure you some of those kids are verydistressed by it.

But the kids who don't want to be subjected to this don't have any rights, according to those on this thread who defend such dancing at school functions. The only "right" they have is to not go to the dances. In other words, the dances are not "for" them, even if they love to dance and want very much to participate in their schools social activities. The dances are only "for" the kids who want to be sexually exhibitionist or who want to watch such exhibitionism.

It is easier, more reasonable, and more appropriate to expect a sexual exhibitionist to tolerate the lack of exhibitionism by his or her peers than it is to expect a nonexhibitionist who is made uncomfortable by such behavior to tolerate such exhibitionism.

Some people seem to believe that all of our public spaces must be ceded to the most aggressive or obnoxious among us, and that those who are made uncomfortable by it have no right at all to enjoy public spaces or public activities.

The "let it all hang out" school of public behavior forgets that civilization and civility consist of tucking at least some of it in sometimes.

[Borgnine]

198. Footloose!

I've been working so hard
I'm punching my card
Eight hours for what?
Oh, tell me what I got
I've got this feeling
That times's just holding me down
I'll hit the ceiling or else
I'll tear up this town

Now I gotta cut loose
1-Footloose, kick off the Sunday shoes
Please, Louise, pull me off of my knees
Jack, get Mack, come on before we crack
Lose your blues, everybody cut footloose...

You're playing so cool, obeying every rule
Deep way down in your heart
You're burning yearning for the sun
Somebody to tell you that life ain't passing you by
I'm trying to tell you
It will if you don't even try
You'll get by if you'd only

Cut loose, footloose, kick off the Sunday shoes
Oo-wee Marie shake it, shake it for me
Woah, Milo come on, come on let's go
Lose your blues, everybody cut footloose...

[frustrated_lefty]

209. I really can't believe this is a subject of debate.

The "bump and grind" dancing kids are doing these days is simply age inappropriate, poorly suited to public venues.

If you want your sexually mature teen to feel free to explore his or her body, have them do so in privacy and express a willingness to answer questions if they have any. "Wham, bam, thank you Ma'am" on the dance floor is simply inappropriate.

I'm not a prude about this, and have tried to make sure my kids are informed about human sexuality.

Dry-humping on the dance floor, or anything resembling that, is just begging for trouble.

Kids are curious. They shouldn't be discovering this crap on their own in public.

FL

[Bill Lumbergh]

212. This is dry humping

I don't care what anyone says.

It is completely inappropriate for 13 and 14 year old kids to be doing this kind of dancing at school. I knowthat these are high schoolers but it doesn't matter.

It's basically dry humping, not dancing. It sets a BAD example for other students at the dance.

And to the person who kept harping on the Elvis line, I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit. Elvis never went down into the audience and fucked 15 year old girls.

This is just unacceptable for students at school dances.

The principal is right.

[knitter4democracy]

260. Absolutely!

Having actually chaperoned high school dances recently, I can tell you it's way beyond anything that should be seen in public, let alone at a school dance.

Here's my question: you have to have adult chaperones there (for many good reasons), so if they don't stop it, what does that make them? I went around breaking kids up (warning my students before the dance I would) because I'm not a pervert who wants to stand around and watch kids engage in sexual acts. Cut a couple holes in their clothes, and it's sex, people. My husband actually stopped coming to the dances with me because of this. It's definitely not Footloose--it's more like the Playboy Channel.

[Bill Lumbergh]

273. Seriously

It's disgusting that so many people on this site would condone that kind of behavior.

[bloom]

291. It's mostly the same people over and over

So it sounds like more are agreeing than really are.

[Bill Lumbergh]

294. Yeah like DrWeird

but that's to be expected.

[AlFrankenFan]

220. My principal did a similar thing

He taped kids "doing it", called there parents to a meeting, and showed them the tape. Needless to say they're banned from the dances. And I agree fully with it. Being a freshman, I've seen my share of it, and it ain't something that needs defending.

[knitter4democracy]

261. Thank you!

I think most of the adults here just haven't seen what the kids are doing. I know when I was a high school teacher four years ago, it was disgusting. I mean, do you want to engage in sexual acts with a huge crowd watching? Do you want adults standing around, watching that and letting it happen? Do you want guys going around, trapping girls against walls or another guy and rubbing themselves all over those girls? With everyone standing around, watching? That's what these people are defending.

I would get physically ill after dances and tried to get out of chaperoning them as much as possible. I even got in trouble with some parents whose kids said that I'd embarrased them. After I told the parents what their kids had done--in public, mind you--I was told that "everyone's doing it" and that I should've let it happen. No way! It's not appropriate in public. Period. Sexual acts are not for the classroom or the school gym.

[phylny]

269. Oh, now that is funny.

"Mrs. Smith? If you look on the screen right THERE, you can see your little girl, Kayla. Yeah, that's Jimmy Jones. Doesn't it look like he's doing her from behind?"

In other words, good for the principal.

[redqueen]

287. THANK YOU!

Think these ADULT MEN on this thread, defending this crap, will listen to you?

I sure hope so!

:yourock:

[Sivafae]

222. I've seen this kind of dancing for years

And I always felt uncomfortable around it.

I mean, if you watch a couple in the park getting into it, one might say "get a room," and what these youngsters are doing makes me want to say, "get a room." Now that I am an adult, I do not go to clubs that have dancing like that. I am sorry if I sound "draconian," but there are social standards so that everyone can feel comfortable attending such events. I mean, when I went to school, the behavior of a few kept most from attending these events. And yes, that freak dancing was part of the behavior. What this is really bring to a forefront is the hyper-sexualization of teenagers. I do believe that teenagers should be able to do what they feel like doing. But having these rules is not just about what these kids can and cannot do, these rules are there so that everyone can feel comfortable to get on the dance floor. I mean, if you want to dance, the standard should not be simulated sex.

[redqueen]

230. but but but... Elvis did it!

:crazy:

[NorthernSpy]

252. Privacy is a right. And maybe it's also a duty...

It's true that sexual attraction is part of being a teen. But learning what sort of behavior is appropriate where is also part of being a teen. This strikes me as similar to the issue of that 'Stars-n-Bars' dress that some twit tried to wear to the prom, even after being told not to.

I hope that the dry-humpin' teens realize that their selfish, histrionic behavior is not welcome in public, and adjust their conduct accordingly. They've got to learn this stuff some time, and it might as well be now -- before they turn into equally charming adults (heaven forbid!).

[jman0]

253. wish they danced this way when i was growing up

It looks like raunchy fun. May have even got me out onto the dance floor!

[Stuckinthebush]

257. Dancing has gotten more suggestive over the years

and every time it takes another step toward the erotic, then someone tries to ban it.

Teenagers and exploration of sexuality go hand in hand. If they don't do it on the dance floor, then they will do it somewhere else. You see, these "children" are really living in the bodies of adults. Their bodies are telling them to get it on, damn it! They get mixed messages about sex from their classmates, their teachers, their parents, their church, and their media. So they battle between the "I want to do it!" message their bodies are sending them, and the "It is wrong!" message that their church and parents are sending them. The dance floor is a writhing mass of sweaty bodies that let loose the primal urges in these teens. They aren't going to start screwing on the dance floor, nor are they going to run off behind the bleachers and screw (any more than our peers did in high school). The vast majority of kids will go home and masturbate (of course they will get mixed messages about that too!).

Our society is so hung up on sex. We as adults just can't talk about it with our kids because we want them to stay "innocent", and we want them to not experience those urges. The problem is that sex and sexual response is not like crack - you can't avoid the need for it just by not doing it.

So here is a thought...let's talk to our kids about healthy sexual relationships. Let's talk to them about respect for oneself and for others when it comes to sex. Let's talk to them about saying "No" when they are feeling pressured or violated. Let's talk to them about contraceptive use for prevention of pregnancy and STDs. Let's talk to them about the biological side of sex as well as the emotional and physical side. Let's tell them it feels good, but it can also be used for power or violence. Let's start talking to them about sex and sexuality in elementary school so they can have a base to build on as they move toward adolescence. Let's not wait until they are "freak dancing" in high school to start wondering about their understanding of sexuality. And most importantly, let's not continue the useless and quite negative practice of banning things that make us uncomfortable about sex, and instead, use these things as opportunities to discuss sex with our children.

[knitter4democracy]

262. As a former high school teacher, I did talk to them about it

Before every dance, I would talk with my students about healthy ways to show love and what would not be tolerated on the dance floor. Keep in mind, it's a public arena with a lot of people standing around, watching. I talked with my students about what's appropriate in public and what isn't, and how sex can be misused and abused. Of course, it was a Catholic school, so I had to stay within what the Church says, but I still was encouraged to talk about it.

If a girl bends down, even to pick something up, a guy comes up behind her and rubs himself all over her. First of all, what's she getting out of this? Second, is it really okay to tell guys (either overtly or not) that it's okay to treat women like that? If a ring of kids forms around that, with guys grabbing themselves while watching two kids simulate sex (which I saw happen, mind you), is that okay? Is it okay for a group of guys to form a ring around a teacher--a teacher!--in order to help one of their own rub himself on her? He got yanked to the ground and kicked out of the dance, but what makes it okay for him to do that to a student?

Things are worse than most people here know. It's not that we're uncomfortable with sex--it's that chaperones and other students shouldn't have to watch it in public.

[Stuckinthebush]

263. I'm saying we wait too late

We wait too late to discuss these issues with children. Of course it is not OK to be a sexual predator. How did these kids get this way? Part of it is that we allow popular media to tell these kids about sex. Starting in grade school we should help the kids understand about sex and inappropriate sexual behavior, and we should teach them how to deconstruct the messages given to them by media.

My other point is that banning a certain form of dance will have absolutely no effect on their inappropriate sexual acting out. They will find other ways to fulfill their urges.

If you are experiencing students who circle around another student or teacher for the purpose of sexual molestation, then there are much bigger problems here than freak dancing. I suggest that this is not the norm, but should be dealt with through disciplinary measures, counseling, and a serious examination of what is going on at the school and feeder schools that may promote this behavior.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

268. "healthy sexual relationships" do not include exhibitionism

...When teaching your children about sex, please include the subject of exhibitionism. Let them know that their rights end where others' begin, and that public sex is about as appropriate as public defacation. Sorry to be so crude, but I have been subjected three times now, to couples f*ing in front of me.

The 1st time it was in broad daylight on a public beach in France. The next was at night, at a Holiday Inn outdoor spa--and I am talking 10-15' away from us. This past spring, we were at a national seashore on the gulf coast. We like unspoiled, uncrowded beaches, and frequently travel with our dog, so have to find beaches where he is allowed. It was about 11:00am, and there were perhaps 40 people in about 1/2 mile stretch...including several families with small children. We are all minding our own business and enjoying a beautiful day at the beach when a couple wanders in (she is obviously drunk, and carrying a to-go cup with what looks like beer in it).

I went back to my reading, but when I looked up again, she was on top of him, and they were having sex. They were not more than 30 feet from the boardwalk, and about 20 feet from an elderly couple who had their backs to the action, so didnt know what was going on behind them. One mom and dad packed their kids up and left, trying not to make any issue of it in front of their kids, and I was SO PISSED, I called the sheriff. Unfortunately he got there right after these pigs had left.

It is incredibly depressing that this is going on, and it is obvious that the media is fueling it.

[Stuckinthebush]

271. Agreed

It is all part of sexual education.

Of course, we are just animals after all, so we have the same urges. One could make the argument that the negative reaction to sex in public is a product of our society's problem with sex. The act of sex is beautiful and quite fun, so perhaps the negative reaction is based on our internal concepts of sex as being naughty, dirty, and something that we do but don't talk about.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

272. Yes, that argument has been considered

It is a very complicated issue to be sure. But I don't feel the intention of exhibitionists is to bring "beauty" into the world. It is really more of a power trip, an ego-gratification, and a "f* you" to those around them. Should there be ANY guidelines? Or should we all defer to the beast within? Does ANYTHING go over the limit? If so, what?

[Stuckinthebush]

275. Controlling the beast within

has been a human pursuit for centuries. We do try to deny and/or control our true nature in many areas - some for good and some do more harm than good.

Our nature is to kill and fight those that threaten us. This applies to even the perception of threat. Thank the gods that we have done a fairly good job at suppressing this desire in daily life. Our governments aren't doing as good of a job, however.

Sex, on the other hand, is controlled to our detriment. We arrest people for having sex in public or for exposing sexual parts. The message is that sex is bad or embarrassing. The rationale is that people don't want to be exposed to other's sexual relationships. The deeper question is, "Why not?"

As for crossing the line, I think you have a valid question there. Any time sex becomes violent, one-sided, or abusive, then it crosses the line. Of course, it is no longer sex at that point.

As for those that have sex in the open, I'd imagine that pure passion combined with decreased inhibition due to alcohol or drugs are mostly at issue here instead of an in-your-face attitude.

Here is a fun test... If you are ever faced with two people having sex in public again, instead of walking away or calling the police, go up to them, sit down, and watch. Bring your friends along and encourage others around you to do the same. I bet you large bills that the couple will get very uncomfortable and stop the act. They probably weren't thinking about being watched, and when it becomes obvious that others are silently observing, then they will stop and walk away. They may scream at you to beat it to which you reply, "I assumed you wanted people to watch - why don't you two go somewhere private if you don't want people to watch." If they continue, then it may be fun to comment on their technique or openly reflect on your experiences while watching. You may even wish to clap if they do something extremely impressive.

My bet is this will cure them of their exhibitionist tendencies.

[MojoRoad]

292. Hear Hear. In full agreement. (see #270) n/t

[mojojojo27]

280. yes

hm

[hedgehog]

283. People are so afraid of being repressive

that they won't acknowledge that sometimes sex is misused. How much of that freak dancing is actually a power play - boys dominating girls or girls using it against other girls?

(Believe me, there is talk days afterward about who did or didn't do what with whom.)

Sex is an important part of life, but it's not the only important thing. There are junior high girls so focused on getting a boy friend that they never get a life.

[Moderator]

297. Locking the Thread

This thread has come down to:

"You're a prude!"
"Am not!"
"Are too!"