Cardinal Says Bush Broke Iraq Promise

[Barrett808]

The Italian cardinal sent by Pope John Paul II last year to try to dissuade President Bush from invading Iraq said Monday the president promised that the U.S. operation would be "quick."

Cardinal Pio Laghi visited Bush at the White House on March 5, 2003, to relay the pope's position that dialogue, not arms, should be used to resolve the crisis over Iraq, which the United States accused of harboring weapons of mass destruction.

"When I went to Washington as the pope's envoy just before the outbreak of the war in Iraq, he (Bush) told me: `Don't worry, your eminence. We'll be quick and do well in Iraq,'" Laghi told Italian Catholic TV station Telepace, which was broadcasting the pontiff's annual address to diplomats.

When the United States went to war in Iraq, Laghi called the attack on Baghdad "tragic and unacceptable."

"Unfortunately, the facts have demonstrated afterward that things took a different course — not rapid and not favorable," the prelate told Telepace. "Bush was wrong."

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050110/ap_on_re_mi_ea/vatican_us_iraq

[3days]

1. Uhoh shrub made the church mad

Thanks Pope

Pope- "Well George if there's gonna be a war then at least make it quick"

Chimp- "I promise. Trust me. I'm good for it."

Pope- "Solid"

Chimp- "Peace out"

[AngryOldDem]

6. Rather flip, don't you think? The Church made its case...

...and Bush rejected it.

Was the Church then to just stay silent on the issue? If action had to be taken -- if nothing was going to dissuade Bush -- all the Church was saying it should not be prolonged. But when you enter a war with no coherent plans or exit strategy, that kind of makes a quick, limited engagement rather impossible.

The results we see today are exactly those the Pope had feared and had tried to communicate to Bush. To me this is just another example of Bush not willing to listen to anyone or anything else but the own voices he hears in his head.

[3days]

12. Exactly

The church made its case and chimp rejected it. At this point the church should stand up and let its members know that the chimp is killing innocent people and will continue to do so and doesn't care what the catholics think about it.
And as a matter of fact will willing take as many of those catholics along for the ride.

[patcox2]

17. That is what the church has done. But the press ignores it.

The church has stated publicly that this may not be a "just war." That is a huge indictment because if the war is not "just," then a catholic soldier would be a murderer. Its like telling catholics they cannot fight in this war and if they do their souls are in jeapardy.

The pope has continued to denounce the war. The american press simply ignores this.

I have a strong suspicion that anti-catholic prejudice could have cost Kerry the election. Its so underground these days, but its still out there. The Masons were originally known as the Anti-catholic league, and the KKK was formed to fight against blacks, jews and papists. Thanks for spreading it.

[3days]

21. The press ignores it?

Come on..
If the pope stood up and said Bush is a murderer, I don't think any of that would be ignored.
I'm not anti-catholic..however I am anti organized religion and until they stop speaking in their double tongues
Abortion=bad
BUT
You can vote for a pro choice candidate if the abortion issue is the lesser of two evils

War in Iraq=bad
BUT
If you're gonna do it make it quick, will ya?

[AngryOldDem]

24. 'Make it quick, will ya'???

>>>War in Iraq=bad
BUT
If you're gonna do it make it quick, will ya?>>

Again...it was clear that Bush was not going to be moved one inch from his determination to wage war. What if the Church had shrugged its shoulders and said, "Well, OK...we tried; go do what you want," and walked away? Cannot the Church try to put SOME kind of conditions on an act that was a virtual fait accompli? The Vatican could not tell Bush not to go to war. But it could tell him what to expect if he did. And guess what...most of what the Pope feared would happen, has. Bush, whether he realizes it or not, is reaping his own whirlwind but he can't say that nobody warned him (as if he'd ever concede the point in the first place). The Pope did.

>>Abortion=bad
BUT
You can vote for a pro choice candidate if the abortion issue is the lesser of two evils>>

Some bishops actually recognized the primacy of one's own conscience, which I think is what most people here support. I will say this, though: Some American bishops should have gone beyond the abortion question and examined Bush's positions as they concern other parts of social justice that the Church is equally outspoken on. I know a great many Catholics who did, and then voted accordingly.

[3days]

28. The Vatican could not tell Bush not to go to war?

I beg to disagree.
Much like all the dems who couldn't tell Bush not to go to war?

Why the hell not?
What do they have to lose?

Once again I think they should have called a chimp a chimp and told the world that this idiot is staging an illegal war and will kill tens of thousands of innocent people.

Oh by the way, DON'T VOTE FOR HIM!
cause you know...he killed tens of thousands of innocent people and you all know the rest...

[NYC]

29. Is this truly so?

"The church has stated publicly that this may not be a "just war." That is a huge indictment because if the war is not "just," then a catholic soldier would be a murderer. Its like telling catholics they cannot fight in this war and if they do their souls are in jeapardy."

Is that how Catholics see it?

[Pirate Smile]

30. The truly pathetic thing is that Kerry lost the Catholic vote.

I'm Catholic and I'm extremely disappointed in the Church and the Congregations where the Right-Wingers are now trying to take over just like they did in many of the Protestant Churches.

A few RW Bishops made it sound like abortion was the only issue that mattered.

Tragic!

[pretzel4gore]

39. who are they, the rw bishops?

n/t

[0007]

40. Like the archbishop in Colorado Springs!

[Pirate Smile]

45. Here are three and a link to an article about it:

"Archbishop Raymond L. Burke of St. Louis issued just such a statement. Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs and Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark have both recently declared that the obligation to oppose abortion outweighs any other issue."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/politics/campaign/12catholics.html?ex=1105506000&en=978883cc5cd724c9&ei=5070

[merh]

47. The Vatican did not support the weed in the election, they

took the safe path and issued a letter advising catholics to look at all of the policies that a candidate supports, not just one (e.g. abortion).

What happened is the U.S. cardinals and bishops were sell outs. They took their 30 pieces of silver (tort reform to help limit their liability in the pedophile cases pending throughout the country) and they distorted the interpretation of the letter from the vatican, focusing on abortion and gay marriages.

[LynnTheDem]

31. No "may not be" a just war about it. The churches have said it IS NOT a

just war...and that includes bush's very own church & very own church minister.

Every major religious authority around the world has called bush's invasion of Iraq UNJUST, and immoral.

I got lists a mile long.

[autorank]

34. The Pope and the Church tried to stop the war.

Unfortunately, the church confounds its highly progressive social and international programs with support of anti-abortion forces who organize against the social and international programs. It is ironic and tragic to see the church shoot it self in the foot over and over because of this short sighted policy.

My understanding is that American Catholics were 50-50 on Kerry. Seems there is a lot of anti-Democratic, anti-liberal prejudice on the part of some Catholics.

You are right, however, that there is no doubt that the Pope and church did the right thing on Iraq. The only thing more the Pope could have done was fly to Baghdad to prevent the invasion (or he could have sent some Opus Dei folks, haha).h

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Pope John Paul II told Bush** that he would go without God if he went into

Iraq. Guess you missed that, but he said it before the war (after Cardinal Laghi had met personally with Bush**) and he has criticized the war and prayed for its end since it began.

[Drifter]

20. Looks like ...

AWOLs god has trumped the Popes god.

Do you think they are both talking to the same god ?

Cheers
Drifter

[3days]

22. Chimps god is his dad

Or himself. Whomever is around at the time

[MaineDem]

2. Thank you, your Eminence!

Many of us here know he lied!

[Pirate Smile]

3. Hmmmm. Why couldn't you guys have mentioned this BEFORE Nov. 2nd?

[MaineDem]

7. Most excellent point!!! (nt)

[Supersedeas]

9. according to the MSM, the election WAS about values...right and wrong

[chelaque liberal]

14. Must read speech by Dr. Robin Meyer

at this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x14179

[Supersedeas]

18. thanks for the link chela -- excellent article.

[hedgehog]

10. Agreed

This isn't the only story to come out about 2 months too late. It really does make me want to get out my tin hat. Was the media really engaged in a cover-up?

[AngryOldDem]

26. HMMMM....

Do you think it would have made any difference?

And, I find it funny that when the Church says something that we can all agree on, everyone wants it to speak out. But yet when it says something that most here disagree with, the Vatican needs to butt the hell out of our affairs.

[spanone]

4. Oh my God, you mean, bush* lied? Wow, alert the media.

[chelaque liberal]

I don't think he lied. I think he is so arrogant and stupid

that he actually believed it. That's not saying that he ever intended to get out of Iraq quickly, not with all of that money to be made and those bases to be built. He just didn't expect any resistance, so the killing would be over quickly.

[EFerrari]

42. You have to be REALLY stupid not to know you're lying that much nt

[rodeodance]

5. Its current average rating is 4.53 with 17 vote(s).

nice little story!!!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

43. Where did Cardinal Lahgi say he agreed with Bush**???

He said that Bush** TOLD HIM that the war would be short. Having been sent there to tell him why there should be no war, I expect the cardinal did just that, but he had no way to force Bush** to cancel his war plans. Bush** didn't listen, naturally. Now he's making it public that Bush** made a promise that the war would be over quickly.

Some people will remember that there was that sort of talk from others in the administration and some will start asking themselves WHY we are still there. If the cardinal had talked about this earlier, it would have been lost in the shuffle. Now's a better time for it to come out.

I heard on the news today that a GOP congressman from South Carolina told his local newspaper it's time to bring the troops home. That should help, too.

[chelaque liberal]

11. I hope that all of the Catholics who voted for Bush

for "moral" reasons will take this to heart. Of course the election is over and it's too late to change anything. The cardinal could have made the same statement in Oct when it might have made a difference...

The ultimate irony (paraphrased from a nun Bill Moyer interviewed, who's name I have forgotten):

"You would have to assume that at least some of those innocent civilian that we killed in Iraq were pregnant women and their fetus' died along with them."

[AngryOldDem]

25. Sounds like something Joan Chittister would say

And if recent letters to my archdiocesan newspaper are any indication, there are still some Catholics out there who see no dissonance with supporting a man who claims to have such upright values but yet persists in waging an unjust war as it is defined by the Catholic Church.

Your point that if Cardinal Laghi had said this in November is also ironic. You have some here who post that the Vatican should butt out of our political affairs. Yet this is the second post on this thread that wishes Rome had said something before November. If it can speak out to this government on war, can it not also speak out on other issues and take positions with which some here may not agree?

[gratuitous]

13. Golly, if only Cardinal Laghi could have said this, oh . . . .

SIX MONTHS AGO? Where was the media with Catholic voices like this during the campaign? Instead, all we got was about how various American bishops would deny Kerry communion because he'd had an abortion. Wait, it wasn't that Kerry had had an abortion, he said that he wouldn't force his wife to not have an abortion. No, that wasn't Kerry's position, either.

Well, whatever it was, the media were lining up to produce thumb-sucker articles about what "all" Catholics thought, and how John Kerry was a bad one, and how no Catholics of conscience could possibly vote for Kerry for president, but that all the "moral values" people had to vote for George W. Bush.

Now it appears that Lil George misled (can we say LIED?) to the Pope's envoy. I seem to recall the Bible saying something pretty harsh about persons bearing false witness . . .

[adigal]

15. Maybe I'll go back to the Catholic Church

when the priests talk about killing real humans and cutting housing funds for the poor as sins ranking up there with abortion and gay marriage.

Until then, I am in the market for a new church.

[emad]

16. Same headline viz Cardinal Marcinkus who got an exemption

from prosecution from Bush1 when he was Ronnie Raygun's Veep - over that pesky Banco Ambrosiano biz in 1982?

As I recall, Bush1 gave Marcinkus immunity on the grounds of a sworn affidavit saying that as all the evidence pointed to a suicide for "God's Banker" Roberto Calvi in July 82, marcinkus didn't have to testify.

Last year Licio Gelli and Flavio Carboni were indicted in Rome on Calvi murder charges along with other members of the P2 Lodge.

Proceedings adjourned when the City of London Police came up with 70 crates of previously "unavailable" evidence on this, in April last year.

Trial to re-commence early this year.

What of Poppy and his dud immunity certificate:

Hope they indite him and the rest of the Carlyle Group including Kissinger.

[warrens]

19. That's why Smirko the Sociopath

Has all those flunkies around and refuses to read the newspaper. 99 percent of people in the world say he is wrong, but sociopaths just don't care. As long as their actions make them happy, that's all that matters. His doppleganger, Ted Bundy, was basically the same way. Just less prolific at killing.

[Dudley_DUright]

23. "Don't worry...We'll be quick"

is probably what he said to Karla Faye Tucker and the other 150 killed in the TX death chambers during his tenure as governor.

[sabra]

27. Wasn't Pat Robertson also saying this a few months ago?

Seems like *'s bubble is bursting...

[QC]

32. Yes. He says he warned Bush that the war would be difficult

and heavy in casualties. Bush replied that there would not be casualties. Even Robertson thought this was nutty.

[VegasWolf]

33. Make it "quick" and don't kill "too many" innocents! n/t

[lovuian]

35. Well Maybe the Pope is realizing Supporting Bush was wrong!!!

Because he did support him and because you support him the backlash is terrible!!!

[Bridget Burke]

36. Where did the Pope go on record as supporting Bush?

I can't remember him declaring a Crusade....

[DemBones DemBones]

44. The Pope was completely against this war.

Anyone who pays attention to the news knows that.

[struggle4progress]

37. kick

[fshrink]

38. The only promises he didn't break

we don't know about.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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