Lutherans Release Report on Homosexuality

[CornField]

http://www.christianpost.com/article/church/1830/section/lutherans.release.report.on.homosexuality/1.htm

The Studies on Sexuality Task Force of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) released its long-awaited report on the contentious issue of homosexual ordinations and the blessing of homosexual unions on Thursday, January 13, 2004. The report, which took nearly four years to draft, addressed the two questions that have been causing greater rifts within the conservative and liberal factions within the 2-million member denomination: Should homosexuals be ordained and should same-sex unions be blessed in the church?

In regards to the two questions, the task force recommended the church maintain its current stance and refrain from ordaining homosexuals and blessing their unions.

Specifically, it recommended the church “continue to respect the pastoral guidance of the 1993 statement of the Conference of Bishops regarding the blessing of homosexual relationships” and “continue under the standards regarding sexual conduct for rostered leaders as set forth in “Visions and Expectations” and “Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline.”

...

The ELCA “Visions and Expectations” spells out the standards and rules of conduct for denomination’s rostered clergy. One of the clauses in the Visions and Expectations states that clergy – both heterosexual and homosexual – are expected to refrain from extra-marital sexual relationships. Marriage is defined as a union between one man and one woman only, and the standard further explains “ordained and commissioned ministers who are homosexual in their self-understanding are expected to abstain from homosexual sexual relationships." The Definitions and Guidelines for Discipline explains what forms of punishment is suitable for clergy who step out of the boundaries of the Visions and Expectations.

...

[bobweaver]

1. And they stayed up all night cramming for it.

[BrainRants]

2. Sounds like they wasted 4 years to arrive at their obvious conclusion. nt

[arcane1]

3. typical... we can't have people LOVING EACH OTHER

that would be un-christ-like :eyes:


these people make me sick. Why not spend FOOUR FUCKING YEARS studying whether war violates the 'no killing' commandment instead?

assholes :puke:

[renaissanceguy]

13. Killing non-Christians is OK to them.

They'd rather get rid of their opposition if they can't convert them.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14741193

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

29. Whoa... I don't think you mean that... ELCA are not wing nuts

by any stretch of the imagination.

[Flammable Materials]

38. ELCA is perhaps the most liberal Lutheran denomination in the USA.

It's just going to take a little longer.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

39. Well, you are dealing with the people Garrison Keilor likes to

call, the shy people.

They can't make a decision about anything for fear of offending.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. It took four years to answer two questions?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Kick Jesus out...he hung with 12 men

[Selwynn]

12. 12 hung men? :)

[qanda]

6. As Rev. Al said the other day

The church is where this debate belongs. If people don't like the stance of the Lutheran church then they can go join a different church or start their own church.

[Democrats_win]

7. What they do in their pew is their business.

Yep, keep it in the church and out of politics. But don't hold your breath, Thrivant, an insurance company for Lutherans, hosted Bush in Wisconsin for one of his campaign speeches.

[yellowcanine]

9. If they do their business in the pew I am going to complain. My cat

did her business in the Papasan chair and it took a week to get the smell out.

[susanna]

34. Don't get me started on Thrivent.

They're the result of a merger of two Lutheran insurance companies. As a member of one of the original companies (much less overtly political), I'm furious that Thrivent pushes * policies and basically plays him up as some sort of "man of faith." I'm looking for a new insurance company because of their political posturing.

[Jax]

8. My homophobic Lutheran neighbor

had her 12 year old son convinced all his friends were gay and evil. Kid ended up with no friends. There was no reasoning with her at all.

We were all glad when she moved, but we felt bad for her son. She is raising a bigot.

Intolerance is not a value.

Jax

[kysrsoze]

19. I'm ELCA and I'm pissed. We're supposed to be more liberal than

...the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods, but I don't see a difference. This sucks.

Of course, the synod is run by a bunch of uptight suburbanites and country yokels (no offense to the sensible suburb and country people). Our congregation completely disagrees with the Synod's now-public stance. Our small, but growing urban church gets literally no financial assistance for rebuilding our 100+ year-old building and its membership which includes a number of gays is obviously not represented.

I think they'd rather see us fold than deal with our "type" of congregation. I hope this results in a split of the synod.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

30. Me too. Our suburban church has about 5 rabid anti-gay idiots

and probably 20 quiet gay couples.

It is disappointing, at best.


But, Lutherans can't make up their minds on anything. it has taken our committee 4 years to make a decision that most people make in 5 minutes... office automation.

Go figure.

[Maat]

49. It would be neat if you progressive Lutherans just went off on your own ..

but dividing up property and finances is tricky. Then you get into contracts. What? Churches have contracts that bind them? You bet they do. But, if the more progressive Lutherans were willing to tough the battle out, they might be better off.

[0007]

10. The fat fingered Pharisees are making wishy washy doctrine to

keep the flock together and the big bucks rolling. And it took them one thousand four hundred and sixty days to figure it out!!

Is this a joke or what and who in the fuck are they kidding? Absolute no marriage or short term fruits allowed.

"The task force also added that pastoral care should be extended to same-sex couples in a “committed, long term relationship with prayerful support.”

“Surrounding persons or households with prayerful support does not necessarily mean public approval of homosexual sexual intimacy,” it added. “Such an exercise of pastoral care should be understood as a matter quite distinct from and in no way equivalent to marriage."

[Hand]

11. Welcome to the new church...

...Just like the old church.

Martin Luther would have flogged these arseholes bloody.

:grr:

[brentspeak]

20. I find that hard to believe

Martin Luther would have jumped at a chance to burn a few homosexuals at the stake. He once personally signed-off on the burning of four alleged "witches" - three women and one 12-yr-old boy. He also encouraged nobles to brutally put down the "Peasant's Revolt" by any means necessary, including torture.

I've met a lot of good Lutherans. But Martin Luther - no good man, he.

[Zenlitened]

44. I was raised Lutheran, fairly active in the church...

... and it wasn't until I was in my 20's and away from all that nonsense that I learned Luther was virulently anti-semitic. For some reason, that little tid-bit never came up in all the years of their preaching, proclaiming and posturing.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

33. The next Martin Luther will

[noel711]

15. Word up from a Lutheran pastor..

Please don't jump to conclusions. If you read the whole report
http://ELCA.org
you'll see how tender this issue is; because the ELCA is centered in scripture, the task force has spent incredible time on scholarship, prayer and input from folks out in the real world. Read the fine print: there are gay pastors in the ELCA; there are pastors who perform same couple blessings; there are many inclusive ministries in the ELCA. But these are not part of the wider church lawful policies.
A large part of it how the local bishops deal with individual parishes, clergy and congregants. There is also the issue of the people in the pew; the vast majority of Lutherans are from rural areas- the forsaken Red States. It's going to take some time for the isolated midwest to adjust to the open attitudes of the coasts.


ELCA does NOT take the stance that gays are doomed to hell; the problem/crux/issue is the Lutheran view of sexuality: any sexual activity outside the boundaries of marriage is sinful- (of course this opens up many questions that I've heard from kids over an over again- premarital sex, extramarital sex, phone sex, masturbation, video sex, gay sex, etc.... to the extreme, yes, it's sinful because it centers on self-pleasure (theologically, any activity that focuses solely on the self is part of original sin- see Augustine); scripturally, marital sex is a glory of God's creation. This is also the Jewish view- which offers mitsvahs when a couple has sex on the sabbath).

HOnestly, as a heterosexual woman and pastor, I have had occasion to break that rule in my life many times. But thru repentence and grace, I've been forgiven. That same grace applies to all, straight and gay.

Please don't paint all LUtherans with the broad brushstroke of judgmental fundamentalism. The ELCA is the most liberal branch of the Lutheran tree. The Wisconsin Synod and the MIssouri Synod are the fundamentalist cousins where I would not be permitted to be ordained.

[Betty]

16. Doesn't the church create a catch 22

when they say that any sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, and then says that gays can't marry? If the church thinks marriage is so important, then why not encourage it for all?

It seems unreasonable to me. I'm an agnostic and haven't gone to church for abut 30 years and I think part of the reason why is that I don't see the use for so many arcane rules. The only rule I got out of Sunday school that I have kept to (well, tried to as much as possible) is the golden rule.

[noel711]

17. You're right Betty...

welcome to the church. Lots of conflicts and conflicts of interest.
NOthing is easy.

[libnnc]

18. From a lesbian who has been in a committed relationship for 12 years...

and has heard the same lame excuses from my own United Methodist denomination--

"whatever..."

So the GLBT community is supposed to feel moved by these denominations' "Prayerful contemplation" which essentially goes nowhere?

Same 'ol hymn, different hymnal...

:eyes:

UCC--here I come

[il_lilac]

32. UCC welcomes you!

:grouphug:

[hollowdweller]

22. I think the Lutherans policies are up to them. However I don't believe

the government should discriminate.

[mulethree]

26. ? martial, but protected sex ?

Seems to be as much about pleasure as any of the others.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

31. Not only not ordained, but not even communed without a letter

from one of their Bishops... unless that has changed recently.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

45. There's also the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" features of this report...

The recommendations basically keep orthodox church practice the same (No gay clergy, No gay marriage), but it leaves open the option for local home rule. It recommends that the church refrain from disciplining those who, in the best interest of evangelism and outreach, violate these practices. It's a result bound to offend everybody -- gay friendly groups (like most of those posting to this thread) will see it as reactionary and homophobes (like must of the rural midwest) will see this as heresy. I'm just glad I wasn't on the committee!

And you're absolutely correct. Having grown up in the Wisconsin Synod, I can tell you from experience that the ELCA isn't nearly as conservative as many people here think. My first act as a liberated adult was to leave the church for more than a decade before I discovered the ELCA (believe it or not, I didn't know growing up that "other" Lutherans even existed).

[Stuckinthebush]

48. So the ELCA is not a leader

A large part of it how the local bishops deal with individual parishes, clergy and congregants. There is also the issue of the people in the pew; the vast majority of Lutherans are from rural areas- the forsaken Red States. It's going to take some time for the isolated midwest to adjust to the open attitudes of the coasts.

Ugh.

If this is the reason, then the ELCA is ethically challenged. As church clergy, you lead the congregations to the ethical, you don't wait until your congregations are ready to hear it.

Imagine if the Episcopalians and Presbyterians had this attitude in the South many years ago? "Well, the southern church isn't ready for women to be ministers or for blacks to be ministers."

And don't get me started on the "sex is sin unless in marriage" stuff.

God, our religions are warped.

[txaslftist]

50. Thanks for the word up...

I'm a Missouri Synod Lutheran, and while appreciate the clarification of the ELCA position, you go a bit far when you say that the Missouri and Wisconsin synods are 'fundamentalist'.

I went to a Southern Baptist university, Baylor, and I know what fundamentalists are. No stripe of the Lutheran church can be fairly characterized as fundamentalist.

United Methodists struggled with this issue for a long time. So did many other branches and denominations. One thing you can say about Lutherans is, yes, they are conservative, but they are progressing, not regressing.

It's an organized church, for Pete's sake. Of course its conservative. Go to a normal church and look how many octegenarians are in the pews. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the congregation reflects 1940s values.

Give them time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. The ELCA is in a tough spot here

Say yes to gay rights, and they will probably lose most of their rural and many suburban parishes, especially after the Republicanites have put so much energy into demonizing GLBT people, and this denomination is heavily based in rural areas and suburbs in the Midwest. Given the demographics of the rural Midwest, many rural Lutherans are elderly.

Say no to gay rights, and they will be condemned in the GLBT community, and rightfully so, because they are going against their own doctrine that God loves all people equally.

Two churches in Minneapolis have already been censured by the national church for accepting non-celibate gay clergy.

We're dealing with a rural-urban gap here. If you talk to someone who comes from a place (or an era) where all the gays and lesbians are closeted, it's genuinely hard for them to understand why all the gay people just can't turn straight.

My mother is over eighty, and after marrying my stepfather, a musician, twelve years ago, she first met "out" gay people. "Why do they have to do that? Aren't there enough nice women around?" I tried to explain, but she's had a hard time getting her mind around it after all those decades of social conditioning. However, she thought that the Republicans were crazy to emphasize gay-bashing when the country faced so many serious problems, so she voted for Kerry.

[uhhuh]

24. So what you're saying is

religion and politics are now the same thing. I guess they might lose "the base" of thier party,uh, I mean, congregation, if they embrace and promote inclusion of all in their vision of how God views his children.

Jesus was a radical. He was not supported by the conservative jewish traditionalists of his time. I don't think he cared if people weren't ready for his ideas. I'm sure he could have gotten a lot more support if he would have compromised some of his message to reach a larger audience.

Thomas: You know, J, that whole love your enemies thing isn't going over well with the 25-45 sheepherder and merchant demographic. I think we should say "Love those who kind of piss you off, but if they really bother you, then stone them." How about that?

Jesus: Well, we can't afford to be too out there. We could be labeled as outside the mainstream. That may lose us some pretty hefty support from the Jerusalem 'burbs. I'll see what I can do to moderate the message for more mass appeal.

Thomas: I think you should also stop hanging out with those less desirable types. You know, there is a lot of talk going around about the amount of time you spend with prostitutes and tax collectors and such. I think you should get out there and be seen more in the temple, hanging out with the high priest once in a while. See if you can get a lunch meeting with Herod. That will reassure the moderates and conservatives that you aren't about to suggest that those who are rich share with the poor, or anything crazy like that.

Jesus: I'm on it Tom. We can't afford to lose this thing.

I feel you either supports Jesus' message on love and inclusion or you don't. If there is any thought given to modifying how to teach C hrist's message to make people more comfortable, then you are no longer offering Christ's message, you're spinning it to keep attendees in church.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. I do agree with you, and I think they should be more courageous

but I'm just describing the issues that they face.

[susanna]

36. LOL

"Thomas: You know, J, that whole love your enemies thing isn't going over well with the 25-45 sheepherder and merchant demographic."

You're killing me. Now THAT is funny. :-)

[mutus_frutex]

23. As an atheist,

I really don't give a shit what any church does within itself. What intrigues me is what any homosexual would want to do in a church that is even remotely based in the christian myth. I know that there is a pretty good explanation in the fact that religious belief is linked to indoctrination as a child and is very difficult to get away from, but any half-enlightened homosexual should be able to see through the muck.

[roguevalley]

27. Thats fine. I will keep my traditional stance of not going or tithing.

[sakabatou]

28. Wait... so they won't give out unions to same-sex partners?

I could see them doing that for marriage, but for unions? 0_.

[Nevernose]

35. The ELCA is actually very liberal - this reminds me of "dont ask dont tell

Their schools teach evolution, their employee health plan covers abortion, the men's investment group tries to invest only with decent companies. My church even serves fair-trade coffee. My pastor has spoken out against the Iraq war, against ANWAR and environmental destruction, and against hypocritical fundamentalist Christians.

Another of the pastors, when I first attended the church, told me flat out that "some people's defintion of love is deifferent than others" (referring politely to homosexuality), that what mattered was God's love for us and our love for him, and that if I had a problem being in a congregation with gays, then I could look for another church, one that would be "more attuned with other, more popular Christian beliefs."

The new report is essentially a don't-ask-don't-tell policy, trying to please the rural and suburban membership (as Lydia pointed out), while still accepting gays as congregants and ministers on the sly. Don't-ask-don't-tell policies try and appeal to both sides of an issue, and end up appealing to neither.

There was a wonderful debate on this a few years ago in the church magazine, a point/counterpoint with both sides being relatively positive on the issue of homosexuality. I agree with the "point" section: Martin Luther was the one who made us realize that our understandings of scripture changes over time and culture, and we must adapt with it.

[leesa]

37. How regressive of them! I was raised in this religion and rejected it in

the sixth grade. Now I remember why.

[gratuitous]

40. Perhaps someone knows . . .

I looked over the report, and for what it is, it's not really too bad. Certainly it could have been better. However, if there are knowledgeable ELCA folks running around DU (heck, we seem to have someone experienced in just about everything here), could you tell me if any of the task force members are homosexual? Here's the list:

The Rev. Margaret G. Payne (chair)
Bishop of the ELCA New England Synod
Member of Immanuel Lutheran Church, Amherst, Massachusetts

Ms. Erin Clark
2003 graduate of Luther College, Decorah, Iowa
Member of Grace Lutheran Church, Knoxville, Illinois

The Rev. Terence E. Fretheim
Professor at Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota
Member of Messiah Lutheran Church, Park Ridge, Illinois

Dr. Julio A. Fonseca
Psychologist
Member of Iglesia Luterana Getsemani, Dorado, Puerto Rico

Mr. Louis M. Hesse
Farmer
Member of Immanuel Lutheran Church, Moses Lake, Washington

The Rev. Lucy A. Kolin
Pastor
Resurrection Lutheran Church, Oakland, California

The Rev. Gary J. Liedtke
Pastor
Calvary Lutheran Church, Brookfield, Wisconsin

The Rev. Dr. Kevin R. Maly
Pastor
St. Paul Lutheran Church, Denver, Colorado

Dr. John Prabhakar
Surgeon
Member of Faith Lutheran Church, Rochelle, Illinois

Ms. Susan Salomone
Program Manager, Community Networks Dayhabilitaion Program - Enable (a United Cerebral Palsy affiliate)
Member of First English Lutheran Church, Syracuse, New York
The Rev. E. Peter Strommen
Bishop of the ELCA Northeastern Minnesota Synod, Member of First Lutheran Church, Duluth, Minnesota

Ms. Connie D. Thomas
Principal
Lutheran Church of the Holy Spirit, Chicago, Illinois

The Rev. Timothy J. Wengert
Professor at Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia, Member of St. Paul Evangelical Lutheran Church, Glenside, Pennsylvania

Dr. Diane Yeager
Professor at Georgetown University, Washington, D.C., Member of Resurrection Lutheran Church, Arlington, Virginia

________________

The reason I ask is this: Would the ELCA convene a task force on women without putting any women on it? Or a task force on race relations without appointing any Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians to it? The "family" motto for these things is "No conversations about us without us."

[noel711]

52. I am personally acquainted with several..

members of the task force. Their sexual orientation is really no business of mine. I am sure that the task force has had leadership from those of that orientation. But the issue that strangled them making any changes was tradition: Lutherans are bound by the scripture.

[gratuitous]

53. Of course they're bound by the scripture

But which scripture? Leviticus? Or Acts 8? A modern gloss on an ambiguous and incomplete reading of Paul's letter to the Romans, or Jesus' clear and unambiguous teachings? The Bible says many things, and the controversy over the role and participation of homosexuals is in many ways a matter of emphasis of one part of scripture over another.

For the two or three passages of scripture, none of which use the fairly modern word "homosexual," that have been used and interpreted to keep the church doors closed to homosexuals, I can cite dozens of passages that argue for the full inclusion and participation of everyone in the body of Christ.

[teenagebambam]

41. In their defense....

...my uncle, a big-shot muckety-muck minister in the ELCA, was the first in my family to send my partner and I a Christmas Card addressed in such a way, that I was led to believe he had meticulously consulted Emily Post about how to address missives to a gay couple.

I will also say that Lutheran adoption services are quietly, but consistently, placing adoptees with gay couples.

So, while it's not the sweeping "All are welcome" I might have hoped for, I rest secure in the knowledge that there is steady progress behind the scenes that will, someday, erupt into the open.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

47. I'd forgotten about the adoption issue...

A gay couple I know received both of the children through Lutheran Social Services.

While this decision certainly could have been more courageous, it gives congregations that ability to do what they think is right. In the big theological picture, gay marriage doesn't a thing one way or the other. The common Lutheran doctrine is "By grace you are saved through faith."

Got faith? Then you'll receive grace.

[Occulus]

42. Fuck everyone who says gay people can *be*, but not have sex.

Just FUCK that attitude. Talk about a slap in the face!!!!

[Zenlitened]

43. But golly gee whiz, they're just trying to affirm marriage, right?

Sex is OK within a marriage... 'course, same-sex couples cannot marry, heh heh.

No intellectual dishonesty there. :crazy:

[Eurobabe]

46. I was raised Lutheran but left church in 80's

The closest I have gotten to a church in 20 yrs. is a Unitarian service. And that's how it will stay.

[txaslftist]

51. Baptists oppose homosexuality...

So do a lot of other denominations...

Why aren't they getting trashed?

[Zenlitened]

54. Do you have a link to an article...

... on the Baptists' new report about homosexuality?