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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:38 PM
Original message
Budget Chief: Payroll Taxes May See Rise....(SS FRIDAY DUMP)
Budget Chief: Payroll Taxes May See Rise



By ALAN FRAM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Social Security (news - web sites) taxes will have to rise by half if lawmakers don't revamp the giant program, President Bush (news - web sites)'s budget chief said Friday as the administration sought support for its overhaul plans.



The comments by Joshua Bolten came as Democrats accused the administration of hiding the costs of its plans for shoring up the pension system for the elderly and disabled.
snip.................

In remarks Friday to members of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (news - web sites), Bolten said the 70-year-old program has failed to change with the times. The number of workers paying Social Security taxes has shrunk compared to the number of retirees whose benefits they are supporting, yet more than 20 tax increases in recent decades have not fixed the imbalance, he said.
snip



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=693&e=1&u=/ap/20050114/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bolten_social_security
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portal Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh great, I already paid tons last year
about $5,500 or so.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Our fearless leader needs more
more, more cash. Prepare to pony up AND receive much less in return.
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. don't you mean "fear mongering" resident evil?
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Ummm... Bush wants you to be scared by this so you support his idea
to dismantle SS. Don't buy into it.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. No, not a dump. Bush agenda propaganda." - n/t
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. exactly
this isn't information, it's just words.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. NYT&AP headline drops "eventually" in "Payroll Taxes May See Rise"
NYT&AP headline drops "eventually" in "Payroll Taxes May See Rise"


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bolten-Soci...

January 14, 2005
Budget Chief: Payroll Taxes May See Rise
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 3:12 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Social Security taxes will have to rise by half if lawmakers don't revamp the giant program, President Bush's budget chief said Friday as the administration sought support for its overhaul plans.<snip>

"All these tax increases (that built the $1.5 trillion Trust Fund) did was push those problems out to be solved another day,'' Bolten said. "That day has arrived."

Bolten revealed no new information about what Bush will propose. Trustees who oversee Social Security say the program will fall $3.7 trillion short of its obligations over the next 75 years, and Bolten said the problem will grow by $600 billion each year it is not addressed.

"If we do nothing to fix Social Security, we will eventually need to raise Social Security payroll taxes on Americans by about 50 percent," he said.<snip>




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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. fear tactics
more bullshit propaganda. tell the masses that they will have their taxes raised by half if they don't support the legal robbery that they have planned with the privatization of ss. so we're f*cked either way.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. fear tactics
more bullshit propaganda. tell the masses that they will have their taxes raised by half if they don't support the legal robbery that they have planned with the privatization of ss. so we're f*cked either way.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Business Tax Cuts = Good for America, more jobs, trickle down
and all that other bullshit. But if they turn around and raise the employer portion of SS, then the business has to cut back.

How is it possible that SO many people don't call them on this "talking both sides of the issue"? Can they really be that naively blind?
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Yep! Bingo!
Business matches the SS and medicare contribution (7.65% to the employees 7.65%) this doesn't sound like much but if you own a small business and they raise it guess what?

It adds up and that will translate into JOB CUTS.

In my state most truly small businesses are just trying to hang on (as for that matter are most working people)

This is all a ploy by bush to get his way (what else is new)
he issues an edict of do my bidding or else and what choice is the tax paying public left with?

Either way we are screwed.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. here's where the LIES get really thick
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B1E4D96D3%2D26A1%2D4C3E%2D8649%2D4F7F91B384BB%7D&siteid=mktw

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) - Allowing workers to divert a chunk of their Social Security payroll taxes into private investment accounts would boost government borrowing in coming years but wouldn't increase federal debt, White House budget director Josh Bolten said on Friday.

Bush has ruled out raising payroll taxes to fund the transition to private accounts. Speaking at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Bolten reasserted the administration's stance that the transition should be funded by increased government borrowing.

While borrowing requirements - estimated at as much as $2 trillion over the next decade - would be reflected in the near-term fiscal picture, it wouldn't represent "an increase in debt," Bolten said.

He argued that the costs would be a wash over the long haul, with a revamped Social Security system wiping out the program's long-term projected shortfall of more than $10 trillion.

<snip>

Bolten criticized use of the term "transition costs" to describe the borrowing associated with creating the accounts, saying it would be better described as "transition financing."

...more...

WTF kind of math is that? Borrow $2 Trillion but have no Debt! Hurray for smoke and mirrors! New words to come! "Transition Financing"
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. free money
as the Bushies portray their plan, only an idiot would oppose it. All upside, no downside. A little like Iraq.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. wipe out SS shortfall over 75 yrs of $10T by borrowing $15 trillion
I love how the $15 trillion cost over 75 years - as pointed out by Krugman - and as stated in the Bush SS commission in the "obtion 2 plan" data - somehow does not make it into the media as they reprint the Bush scream that there is a Soc Sec 10 trillion hole over 75 years.

Media Whores - or just lazy?
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Did they say that?
That would be just plain wrong. There is no shortfall of $10 trillion over 75 years. It's $3.7 trillion. Over 75 years. Note that George Bush's two tax cuts for the rich total between $2 and $3 trillion just to 2010! If he can give away $2-3 trillion to mostly the top 2% of the U.S. population to fund personal, current consumption, how come he can't find $3.7 trillion over the next 75 years? Answer: Misplaced, greedy, immoral, thieving priorities!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #24
41. This is a game of apples and oranges as to numbers - all the numbers are
"correct" in one way or another -

but you are correct that the current value is only 3.7T for the maybe problem.

The Bush folks move from todays value numbers to the value at the end of 75 years numbers without worrying about the 2 not being comparable.

The neat thing is that if we use reasonable assumptions as to the growth of the economy, there is never a Soc Sec funding problem.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. 3.7T *is* the 75 year number!
Edited on Sat Jan-15-05 11:41 AM by davekriss
The $10 trillion number is the projected shortfall over "infinity", not 75 years. Who except this bozo administration makes policy over numbers projected over "infinity"? Geeze, we can't even correctly predict GDP growth over a 1 year horizon, we're going to predict the flow of FICA taxes over "forever"? Get a grip, nation!!

Projections today tell us social security payouts are solvent until 2018. At that point the Treasury Bonds (special issue) held by the Social Security Trust Fund will slowly be redeemed. The CBO forecasts that Social Security remains solvent at 100% benefits until 2052 (the SSA, with even more conservative economic growth assumptions, says 2042). There is a $3.7 trillion gap if we hold to 100% benefits from 2053 through 2075. So, from today (2005) to 2075 there is a forecast, based on conservative economic assumptions, that there will be a future shortfall of $3.7 trillion.

First, it's important to note that if the U.S. economy grows more than the 2.5% GDP growth built into the CBO model, then not only can we pay 100% benefits, but the surplus continues to grow.

Second, this is a matter of social priorities. Though Social Security shows a shortfall of $3.7 trillion at the back end of a 75 year view, George Bush and the Republican Party decided instead to address the wants of a thin sliver of the U.S. social body. They pushed through two massive tax cuts that, just between 2001 and 2010, are expected to generate between $2 to $3 trillion in additional debt. On top of that, they decided to lie us into an unnecessary, illegal, and immoral war that will cost around $600 billion before its done. That's between 60% to 90% of the Social Security shortfall right there (and we didn't even add on the Medicare pharmacuetical giveaway), frittered away on mostly the top 2% of the population, given away just in arch-class-terrorist Gee Dubya's first 4 years (!).

So instead of continuing to generate federal surpluses and paying down the debt (which is what the Democrats were doing), thereby making future budgetary room to redeem those Trust Fund Treasury Bonds, the Bush administration decided in effect to give away the promises behind the Trust Fund to his "base", the already advantaged rich. Bush has enabled the rich to steel their financial fortresses ahead of what's surely to be the Latinization of the American economy, one where the owning class rules, with a thin sliver of managers and magistrates that service that class, and then all the rest of us, the "useless eaters" and "cannon fodder" left to "own" our deprivation and misery.

It is theft, pure and simple; a theft effected while most working Americans sleep in front of the blue glow of their nightly worship at the altar of crony-capitalism, the nightly fix of CNN/CNBC/MSNBC/FOX/ABC/CBS/NBC telling us that we've always been at war with Eastasia, that widget production numbers continue to be up and up and up, and that Big Brother has magnaminously decided to up our choco rations another week. It is a tragedy of enormous proportion that will take generations to overcome.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. thanks for the heads up re "infinity" projections
I read the commission data as 15T added yo our national debt under the private account plan by the end of the 75 years -

so I thought the 10 T had the same basis.
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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. How about raising the ceiling?
If they just didn't let people stop paying once they hit $88,000 (approx.) in annual income, there wouldn't be a problem. Then they could actually lower the rates, but increase the amount coming in.

Seems simple to me. Is it more fair to jack up the tax on those already paying, or to have those making lots of money pay up to a higher ceiling level?

I never hear anyone talk about the ceiling issue, or rarely.

b_b
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. That's Because...
everyone involved with this (including the media that covers it) makes over 88K per year. Why would they promote an idea that would require them to pay more money? I agree with you BTW.

Jay
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. perfect example of the "easiest route" and simple questions AVOIDED
benefit a the wealthy and screw the majority of people in this country.

Wake up people.
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ps1074 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. Brilliant
Dems got roved again...

See how this story continues - If you don't back Bush's SS plan, then the taxes will rise. Do you want your taxes rise? Hell no! The President lowered your taxes, gave you tax cuts, he thinks about you. He don't want you pay higher taxes. Agree? Yes, we agree (sheep voices). Well, tell the damn liberals then that you want them to back president Bush's plan. If they don't, it means they vote to raise your taxes. Same as if they don't want to make the tax cuts permanent. They are tax and spend liberals and you don't need that.

The debate will follow a similar script soon. I hope dems are ready this time.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. thoght GOP'ers
didn't raise taxes?.....they are the party of "tax Cuts"........remember......keep your own money.......HAHAHA
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mediaman007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
49. Just expand the maximum to $250,000 or $500,000
The Social Security tax is the most regressive tax that we have. How do any workers above $90,000 get free from paying on the additional income. Hell, Social Security taxes shouldn't begin until you make $50,000!
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Why payroll taxes? Why not "unearned income?"
Why penalize people more for working? Why not roll back those tax cuts on unearned income like capital gains, corporate loopholes, and inheritance taxes?
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. i think you know the answer to those questions!
n/t
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
19. Didn't Bush* say there would be NO tax increases?
Maybe he was only talking to people who are in the top 1% of wealth.
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lawladyprof Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Well, he would be if he is talking about raising payroll taxes
without raising the cap. In other words, increased payroll taxes would only hit middle and lower income workers b/c above a certain amount ($87,000 this year?) you don't pay FICA and, of course, it wouldn't hit unearned (nonsalary/wages) earnings at all.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Lies, lies, and more lies
Of course the wealthy won't pay any higher taxes.

Instead it will be the poor, disabled, elderly, less fortunate and on and on and on..............
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. Oh and, "change with the times"?
Fuck you!:mad:
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. They are basically trying to shove SS privatization down
Edited on Fri Jan-14-05 05:18 PM by Skidmore
our throats and are employing the proverbial carrot and stick. Carrot = personal income accounts.
Stick = raise payroll taxes. This is an either/or and people will swallow it if there is no opposition party with a clear and understandable explanation. It is town hall meeting time for Dems and Independents. It is road trip time and these Dem pols had better get off of their butts and earn their raises.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. where the hell are the Dems education people on these LIES ????
WTF is going on..?
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Getting fitted for their Inaugural Ball gowns, I guess.
Pink tutus didn't quite fit the occasion--not enough sequins.

I'm so pissed right now, I can't stand it. And people want to know why some of us are so damned upset with this party.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. They are ALL OWNED...we are on our own with no MEDIA.... this is BS
again....we are being fed a line of bullshit so that they can raid "our money...our funds"...they should be held on criminal charges for "stealing our funds".
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. So.. they're taking back the $300 bribe....again !!
Let's see..

They "gave" people $300, then made them "claim it" on the next year's taxes....

Then they "gave" more to people with young children, but they too had to "claim" it.... (Most people saw little if any of that "bonus"..)

The trade off on "lowering taxes"..5 or 6 bucks a paycheck...

NOW, they want it all back...and then some....


But.. the rich folks who are NOT paying "payroll taxes", lose NONE of their bonanza windfall..

Sounds about right..:eyes:


suckers!!!

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. They have a war to run.
And if they have to break our budgets to do it, well that's just too bad.
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CarpeVeritas Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. That's EXACTLY how Ronnie Ray-gun stole the money for the rich...
step 1- give a HUGE tax cut to the uber-wealthy(who aren't subject to FICA)

step 2- use social security trust fund to cover budget shortfalls created by tax cuts

step 3- DOUBLE the Payroll withholding to cover anticipated shortfall in social security trust fund

accomplishment- a GIANT transfer of wealth, from the working class to the investor class.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
33. rate this story a "5"
it is going down fast I noticed.

Chalk up another "win" for the fuhrer! :grr:

Time to email all senators AGAIN!

:kick:
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. "This is a crisis." - just like the WMD!!!
<< "Delay and inaction are not an option," he said, adding later, "This is a crisis." >>

Another crisis! Just like Saddam! Just like those weapons of mass destruction!!!

* just need MORE WAR MONEY NOW!!!!!!! :grr:

:dem: :kick: :kick:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. That's the way to sock it to the legions of self-employed, bush
Thanks for nothing. Thanks a big fat lot for nothing, bush. Higher property taxes, inflation hitting the grocery store where it makes you want to pass out when the checker hits the total button, higher gas prices, everything goes higher and higher and higher, and now you're threatening me with higher taxes which is a double whammy to the self-employed. Then you turn around and you actually effin' think I can afford effin' health insurance? Are you out of your effin' mind?

Hey bush, here's a news flash for you: The poor aren't poor because they're lazy, as you have claimed. The poor are poor because the rich keep adding one more brick to the increasingly heavy load we carry.
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. Bushfuck the Liar has now become so arrogant that he allows his minions
Edited on Fri Jan-14-05 05:56 PM by snippy
to describe to the media how he intends to lie and use the "politics of fear" to decieve and manipulate the public into supporting his secret plan to change Social Security.
Social Security Push to Tap the GOP Faithful
Campaign's Tactics Will Drive Appeal

By Mike Allen and Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, January 14, 2005; Page A06

President Bush plans to reactivate his reelection campaign's network of donors and activists to build pressure on lawmakers to allow workers to invest part of their Social Security taxes in the stock market, according to Republican strategists.

White House allies are launching a market-research project to figure out how to sell the plan in the most comprehensible and appealing way, and Republican marketing and public-relations gurus are building teams of consultants to promote it, the strategists said.

The campaign will use Bush's campaign-honed techniques of mass repetition, never deviating from the script and using the politics of fear to build support -- contending that a Social Security financial crisis is imminent when even Republican figures show it is decades away.

Bush aides said that in addition to mobilizing the Republican faithful and tapping the power of business, they plan to target minority voters who have not been able to afford to save and might be open to the argument that the president's plan would turn them into investors. The campaign will also court younger voters, including many Democrats, who would potentially benefit the most from the change.

. . .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7797-2005Jan13.html?sub=AR


This article perfectly illustrates two things.

The first is the difference in the level of strategic planning and tactical organization between the two major parties. The GOP has done extensive strategic planning on manipulating public opinion concerning Bush's secret Social Security plan and has set in place even more extensive organizational tactics. Meanwhile, according to this article, the democratic party is in the position of

"scrambling to organize in the face of a multimillion-dollar juggernaut, have yet to settle on any particular counterargument but said they believe Bush's rollout of the idea has been rocky and new details will give them more ammunition."

The republican party has this type of advantage on every issue and during every election. The democratic party needs to learn to understand the competitive advantages of strategic planning and tactical organization.

The second thing illustrated by this article is the incredible arrogance republicans are developing. They now are willingly describing to the media how they intend to deceive and manipulate the public. In the past they would not reveal their intentions to lie and twist the truth in advance and would deny it after the fact.



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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. Eliminate the cap on income subject to payroll tax.
That would surely make the program solvent for as far as can be seen.
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CarpeVeritas Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. BINGO! That's the FIRST change that needs to be made-
Edited on Sat Jan-15-05 01:30 PM by CarpeVeritas
Before any benefit cuts or rate hikes are foisted upon the working class.

In Fact- if they removed the cap, they could probably lower the overall rate.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
38. BFD ....
Won't be the first time. Nor the last time. But now let's really put the money in a lock box -- with real teeth.
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
39. "Read my lips......."
where have I heard that one before?

The suckers out there that thought bush was some sort of savior by sending them a $300 check right after he took office must have some serious cognitive dissonance going on right now. Even the stupid ones must be scratching their collective behinds saying "but I thought I would be better off under Bush?"
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. this is Joshua Bolten's moment to shine as a Bushist stalwart--plz,
don't ignore him.
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
45. its an attempt to pay for: coronation: war: etc.
lies, all lies:

an attempt to use one set of money to pay for something else:

21 REASONS WHY PRESIDENT BUSH'S PLAN FOR SOCIAL SECURITY IS A BAD IDEA AND IN FACT IS MISLEADING :
(WAYS TO INNOCULATE YOURSELF AGAINST THE ONCOMING MEDIA BLITZ):
A story of how Social Security is not like a 'pig in a python' (but that's what Bush and company are telling you)
We are being scammed to pay for the war on Iraq & associated deficits


You will notice that points have references; see those references at the end of these points. This is not intended to be an 'academic presentation'; thus, the URL's which you can check for yourself.



1. WHO WANTS THE CHANGE AND HOW WILL THEY 'FRAME' THE ISSUE? Wall Street wants privatization in order reap a windfall profit. Everyone else should be very suspicious. If the stock market goes down, your benefits go down.

This is what you will hear from Bush and company: "right now we are on an unsustainable course." They say, 'its unfixable as it is.' They will say: 'the problem will just grow and grow as more and more boomers come on board to obtain their Social Security benefits.' They will say: "the trust fund is empty.

Quite the contrary: Social Security funds are actually increasing and....and will actually expand for 10 more years because of the interest it receives from Treasury bonds. Could it be that Bush and company are worried because, "the government has already used the annual surpluses to finance its operating deficits." (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)

That's right: Bush and company have used the surplus which usually accumulates along with the principal money in order to do something about the deficit that they have created over the past 4 years.



2. EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE SURPRISED: WAS THIS 'TWEAKING' OF SOCIAL SECURITY MEANT TO TAKE PLACE PERIODICALLY? : YES "What people forget is that the baby boom is not like a pig in the python," said Kent Smetters, an associate professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and a former senior official in Mr. Bush's Treasury Department. "If you just balance it over the next 75 years, it just means we have to come back and do the same thing all over again about 15 years from now," Professor Smetters said. (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)



3. WHY ARE WE BEING TOLD WE NEED TO 'DO SOMETHING ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY'? The nation's baby boomers start to retire at the end of this decade and relatedly the cost of retirement benefits is expected to rise much faster than payroll taxes from active workers. Obviously, payments become higher with each generation of retirees, even after accounting for inflation. By 2042, the trust fund will have used up its reserves and payroll taxes will cover only about 70 percent of the promised benefits.


4. WON'T WE HAVE TO PAY FOR CHANGING TO PRIVATE ACCOUNTS?? HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST US? : the Bush administration deems the current system, with its average monthly benefit of $955, as too generous (that's less than $12,000/ year). The Bush Administration wants to cut benefits by more than 40% to help pay the trillions of dollars that would be needed for the creation and maintenance of private accounts. http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41481

This doesn't make sense given that now Social Security is the most efficient government system ever instigated, utilizing only 1% of the overall funds to manage the monthly Social Security payments for millions of people. More than 99 percent of Social Security's revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. The Social Security System is legally separate from the rest of the budget. Bush wants to discontinue that. This will make it difficult it not impossible to track in terms of is the Social Security money really being used for other purposes like making war on Iraq.

Where's all that money right now? "The Social Security trust fund has accumulated more than $1.5 trillion in reserves, held in Treasury bonds." (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)



5. WHO IN BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION IS DRIVING THE MATTER? Karl Rove, Bush's right hand man: He is attempting to convince the public that Social Security is 'heading for an iceberg." )http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950)


4. WHY WOULD KARL ROVE WANT TO PRIVATIZE SOCIAL SECURITY? Rove sees it as : “one of the most important conservative undertakings of modern times,....“We need to establish in the public mind a key fiscal fact: right now we are on an unsustainable course,” the e-mail said. “That reality needs to be seared into the public consciousness; it is the precondition to authentic reform.....government and toward giving greater power and responsibility to individuals,” said Wehner, the director of White House Strategic Initiatives. " Who is this Wehner? : Peter Wehner, the deputy to White House political director Karl Rove. Thus, Rove is attempting to continue the line of 'getting government out of your lives' which is a recipe to allow corporations unbridled power and individuals no retirement through Social Security. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/679195


5. WHAT STRATEGIES ARE BEING UTILIZED IN ORDER TO CONVINCE THE PUBLIC OF THE NEED FOR PRIVATIZATION OF SOCIAL SECURITY?: "The administration has suggested that it would be justified in borrowing some $2 trillion to establish private accounts because doing so would head off $10 trillion in future
Social Security liabilities. It's bad enough that the $10 trillion is a highly inflated figure, intended to overstate a problem that is reasonably estimated at $3.7 trillion or
even considerably less. Worse are the true dimensions of the administration's proposed ploy, which were made painfully clear in a memo that was leaked to the press last week. Written in early January by Peter Wehner.".....(Rove's right hand person): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0


6. WHAT WOULD ACTUALLY TAKE PLACE RE: THIS PRIVATIZATION EFFORTS PER BUSH/ ROVE / THE REPUBLICANS? : "Revamping the system to allow investment accounts would not shore up the future finances and would make the financial picture worse. The administration is considering borrowing $1 trillion to $2 trillion to continue paying benefits to current retirees while tax revenue is diverted into personal accounts, called transition costs, Wehner's e mail said (per this article, this e mail was verified by the White House). Separately, to address the future financial shortfall, the administration is looking at plans to cut future promised benefits, by 46 percent in some cases, with investments expected to make up the difference." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/679195


7. WHO ELSE UNDERLINES THAT THIS IS WHAT WOULD ACTUALLY OCCUR? : " The real impact of President Bush's Social Security privatization scheme: massive cuts in promised benefits. The White House is expected to propose a new system of calculating Social Security benefits called "price indexing." The technical change would mean "cutting promised benefits by nearly a third in the coming decades" – with even deeper cuts in the future. For example, if the "price indexing" change is made, "a retiree in 2075 would receive 54 percent of the benefits now promised." David C. John, a Social Security expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation called the proposal "very much like sticking your hand in a wasp nest.": American Progress Action Fund" <progress@americanprogressaction.org


8. WHAT ARE SOME POINTS THAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT TO HEAR FROM BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS? Talk about: PRICE INDEXING: The current method of calculating Social Security benefits is adjusted to reflect the standard of living when a person retires. That means when your benefits are calculated based on your average earnings, the salary you made 25 years ago is adjusted upwards to reflect the overall rise in wages (wage growth) since that time. The "price indexing" plan, expected to be proposed by Bush, would make that adjustment based on the rise of consumer prices – essentially the inflation rate. Since wages rise much faster than inflation, that means your newly adjusted salary will be lower. The end result is far lower benefits for every new generation of retirees. If this system had been in place since Social Security's inception, people today would be retiring with a benefit tied to the living standard of the 1930s, when 40 percent of households lacked indoor plumbing.: progress@americanprogressaction.or


9. WHAT ELSE CAN WE EXPECT TO COME OUT WAY RE: THIS PUSH FOR PRIVATIZATION? : You will hear talk about how it will be cheaper in the long-run to privatize at least part of Social Security. Specifically, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan claims, "The cost is $10 trillion if we do nothing. So what you're talking about would be a significant savings over those costs." There are two problems with this argument. First, the $10 trillion figure grossly distorts the modest long-range deficit of the Social Security program by projecting that shortfall over eternity. (There is no shortfall at all until 2052. Projections beyond 2052, obviously, are extremely unreliable.) Second, and more fundamentally, "borrowing $2 trillion to fund individual accounts does nothing to reduce Social Security's long-term deficit." Under the Bush plan the long-term deficit is reduced through deep benefit cuts.: progress@americanprogressaction.or


10. WHAT ARE SOME OTHER MATTERS ASSOCIATED WITH RETIREMENT SAVINGS THAT WILL BE BOUGHT UP? The Thrift Savings Plan: what is it land what might be the downsides of such a model, which could be part of the Rovian onslaught?
the Thrift Savings Plan could serve as a possible model for personal investment accounts in Social Security.
Numerous readers said the two programs are unrelated and that the TSP, which relies on federal payroll systems for its basic operation, cannot be replicated on a scale as large as Social Security. Others said a column about the plan failed to stress that the TSP is a voluntary savings program that supplements Social Security, a tax-based program. Cavanaugh's paper (The paper, "Feasibility of Social Security Individual Accounts," was published by the AARP Public Policy Institute. AARP is opposing Bush's plan), for example, says that personal accounts in Social Security will cost more to manage than those in the TSP, in part because the TSP can rely on hundreds of federal agencies to administer payroll deductions and provide retirement planning and other services.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-2005Jan9.html?referrer=email


11. SO THE THRIFT SAVINGS PLAN APPEARS TO WORK FOR LARGER PERSONAL INVESTMENT ACCOUNTS, YES? The paper also points out that TSP operates on a progressive fee system (usually 60 cents per $1,000 account balance) so that holders of the higher account balances absorb part of the cost of maintaining smaller accounts. Such a fee system would not work in Social Security because too many accounts would be small, the paper contends. Social Security relies on the government to absorb inflation and market risks, while the TSP shifts those risks to individual investors, Cavanaugh writes. "Attempts to combine these two fundamentally different programs are like mating a bear with a bee -- somebody is going to get hurt," he concludes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-2005Jan9.html?referrer=email


12. WHY DOES WALL STREET WANT THE CHANGE? In the background, beyond private accounts, are various proposals to cut guaranteed Social Security
benefits in the future.


13. BUT WE WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER DEPRESSION AS IN 1929: wrong: In 1973-74, the stock
market lost 48 percent of its value. The stock market is a very dangerous place to put money



14. WHO DOES NOT WANT THE CHANGE? (1) AARP, the nation's largest seniors organization, is coming out
strongly against President Bush's plan to allow private individual accounts
within Social Security. (2) On January 10, 2005, a NY Times Opinion piece stated this: "In this and other ways, the administration is manipulating
information - a tacit, yet devastating, acknowledgement, we believe, that an informed public would reject privatizing Social Security." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0


15. HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST TO PRIVATIZE SOCIAL SECURITY? transitioning to private accounts could cost $2 trillion. See above information also.


16. TO REVIEW, WHERE WOULD THAT MONEY COME FROM? our taxes will have to be increased to make Bush's proposed plan work.


17. THEY TELL US THAT SOCIAL SECURITY IS BROKE OR GOING BROKE?: With all the clamoring about Social Security, a simple fact has been obscured: the Social Security budget is currently running a surplus; progress@americanprogressaction.or


18. OTHER COUNTRIES MUST HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MAYBE THOSE ARE BETTER? wrong: Chile's system, management fees are around 20 times as high. A privatized system will take money from your Social Security check.


19. SHOULD YOU BE WORRIED THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY? Nothing is going to change, in terms of benefits, for people near your retirement age.


20. WHO TAXED SOCIAL SECURITY TO BEGIN WITH? Ronald Reagan, a Republican, began the taxation on Social Security in 1983.


21. IF WE ARE GOING TO 'FIX IT' HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT TO DO AS RELATED TO WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST TO 'FIX' IT? "If you compare its position now with its position at the time of the last reforms in 1977 and 1983, it's clearly better," Professor Diamond said. "Even then, it was readily fixed without radical reforms, and it's obvious that can be done again." (a professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a co-author of the book "Saving Social Security.")





There is no Social Security crisis, just as there were no weapons of mass destruction. Social Security has provided a lifeline to millions of Americans with
millions of checks, and in more than 60 years has never missed a payment—and this track record can continue. Social Security is basically a sound system
that can meet 100 percent of its obligations for the next 39 years, and with responsible changes it can continue to do so indefinitely.

"Social Security is not a crisis for which enormous borrowing, huge benefit
cuts and risky private accounts are a solution. Rather,
it's a financial problem of manageable proportions,
solvable without new borrowing by a combination of modest
benefit cuts and tax increases that could be distributed
fairly and phased in over several decades, while
guaranteeing a basic level of inflation-proof income for
life." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0


And don't forget: It remains a fact that 30% of the votes in this national election were cast, and 80% of the votes were compiled, by three private companies, owned and controlled by conservative Republicans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/01/12_give.html




REFERENCES:




Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005:

HTtp://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41481

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-2005Jan9.html?referrer=email


progress@americanprogressaction.or










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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. They are not payroll taxes, they are insurance premiums.
It is Social Security Insurance, not Social security Investment Plan.

We are being told to abandon our insurance policy and instead invest the premiums into the volatile stock market.
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IStriker Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
47. I hope everybody posting on here is...
a "trust fund" baby like Chris Heinz and never needs to see a dime of SS or you are all old enough to already be on SS and are not worried about the liars in both parties who have been ignoring the facts for 40 yrs. because you will be dead before it means any change in your benefits.

I have BIG news for any of you who don't fit into those two groups: You're never going to see what you have paid into SS if you have worked regularly if nothing is done, and if everything suggested is done (cut benefits, lift the cap on earnings, raise the rates on FICA taxes, raise the age of retirement, etc.) it will only push the collapse ahead a little bit.
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