Graner Found Guilty in Iraq Prisoner Abuse

[Bluebear]

FORT HOOD, Texas - Army Spc. Charles Graner Jr., the reputed ringleader of a band of rogue guards at the Abu Ghraib prison, was convicted Friday of abusing Iraqi detainees in a case that sparked international outrage when photographs were released that showed reservists gleefully torturing prisoners.

Graner, the first soldier to be tried on charges arising from the scandal, was convicted of all five charges and faces up to 17 1/2 years behind bars.

The jury took less than five hours to reach the verdict.

The verdict came after a five-day trial in which prosecutors depicted Graner as a sadistic soldier who took great pleasure in seeing detainees suffer. He was accused of stacking naked prisoners in a human pyramid and later ordering them to masturbate while other soldiers took photographs. He also allegedly punched one man in the head hard enough to knock him out, and struck an injured prisoner with a collapsible metal stick.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050114/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_graner

[Shakespeare]

1. GOOD. Sadistic bastard. n/t

[Barrett808]

2. That "cheerleader pyramid" defense seemed doomed to fail n/t

[wtmusic]

3. Poor guy

Maybe he'll learn how to make an "Arab pyramid" in prison

[Philly Buster]

4. Good news

But I still want to see the higher up Mil Intel people be held responsible too.

[Malikshah]

5. So what does the POS get?

Maybe they can form cheerleader pyramids at Leavenworth?
Shit, Leavenworth is too good for him.

[Bluebear]

9. Deliberations for sentencing going on now

[Malikshah]

15. Just saw--up to 17 1/2 years

doubt he'll get much...hope they get the others too.

[pokercat999]

52. "Army Spc. Charles Graner Jr., the reputed ringleader"

....From: the Commander-in Chief

.....To: JAG, Graner trial

Good work but put away that broom and lay the rug down again it may become obvious

On second though forget this memo we are in Merica after-all.

Your buddy and CIC, George


PS: got any extra pic's, my girls just love em.

[NYC]

6. What did they say?

?

[Sparkle]

7. I sure hope he and a few other low rankers don't take the heat for that.

It should at least go as far up as Rumsfeld.

[Shakespeare]

11. Yes, but....

He deserves ALL the heat he gets. He's a vicious sadist who had a history of abusing prisoners in state prison before he got called up for NG duty. Get the higher-ups as well, but Graner absolutely deserves to have his ass nailed to the wall.

[arcane1]

20. they will love him in prison

serves him right, too

hope he enjoys the inevitable cheer-leader pyramid

[jazzjunkysue]

54. don't you think that's why they put him there?

Because he had skills. The question is, will some military families finally wake up, now that they know their kids can't even follow orders without going to jail?

[jazzjunkysue]

55. Will this wake up military families? Can't refuse orders, can't follow 'em

[jarab]

59. Agree ....

And, I believe an investigation should be undertaken regarding any and all complaints lodged against him in his previous employment as a prison guard. This conduct of which he has been found guilty didn't commence last year, imo.
Will probably never happen.
...O...

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

8. MSNBC has the following "breaking" headline:

"Spc. Charles Graner found guilty on all 5 counts in Abu Ghraib abuse case"

and Fox:

"Spc. Charles Graner Jr. Found Guilty of Abusing Abu Ghraib Inmates"

...it will be interesting to see how the "big 3" MSM spinners handle this, and which "pundits" and "military experts" will be brought in to comment.

Let Freedom Reign, I guess...

[ChiciB1]

10. Did We Expect Less...

Just heard it myself!! I guess this will end it for the Boy King now, what an ASS! Rummy must be Yukking it up too! I surely don't condone what Graner did and think he should have been convicted of something. But to take the COMPLETE blow is treasonous on the part of the administration! I'm waiting for KARMA!

Just get the "little guys" and we can SKATE!!!

I want Gonzales NOW!

[maddezmom]

12. AP link: Graner Found Guilty in Iraq Prisoner Abuse

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20050114/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_graner

[NYC]

18. Thank you.

Google didn't have anything yet.

[Chicago Democrat]

13. A Scapegoat! Taking the fall for FOLLOWING ORDERS!

INCOMPETANT LAWYER! Utter crap defense! A miscarriage of justice. THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS THE ISSUE!


TOTALLY BULLSHIT.... The Gonzalez memo authorizes torture! Tom Ridge authorised it just today in a speech!!! WHAT A KANGAROO COURT! This man was FOLLOWING ORDERS. A railroad! A SHAME FOR ALL HISTORY! ANOTHER LIFE RUINED AS A SCAPEGOAT FOR BUSH POLICY!!!!

[Shakespeare]

16. Graner carried out the orders. They should ALL be in prison, Graner incl.

Just because the orders came from higher up does NOT absolve that sadistic fuck.

[Chicago Democrat]

24. Yes it does! Just because this was photographed it was discovered!

BUT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!!! IN DOZENS OF SECRET PRISONS ALL OVER THE WORLD AND WORSE!


So he is like the lowliest pawn in a giant crime. He deserves pity and clemency in return for proving these actions were ubiquitous and done purposely under the direction of Bush and Rumsfeld and every General on down. The Guilt is greatest at the top, not the bottom.


So by condemning this schlub, you are falling for the trick that is was just a few bad apples. (Bad apples that only happened to be photographed, maybe .00001% of the total torture done, right?)

[Shakespeare]

28. Graner deserves NO pity OR clemency!

:wtf:

Did you not READ my entire post? NOWHERE did I "fall for a trick" that it was just "a few bad apples." I said EVERYONE involved in this deserves prison time--those who gave the orders, AND those who carried them out.

As Shakespeare said in Henry V, "Every subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's soul is his own."

[Chicago Democrat]

35. "Everyone" meaning? Inequal justice is no justice at all...

Graner is facing 17 years for doing what was being done everywhere, all the time, with express authorization.

Innocents are being killed to the tune of 100,000 per year and but these deaths/torture gets you put in prison for 17 years because some idiot took a photo. But what about the 250,000 that used to live in Fallujah? What about all the innocents that die every day? What about the architects of the torture policy?How can it be justice for Graner to gets 17 years for obeying orders, and Tommy Franks gets a medal? My point is that Bush is using your bloodlust for Graner as a cover for his crimes. If you believe in proportional justice and a punishment should equal the crime, why is Rumsfelt free but this stupid, order obeying, monster they purposely created being punished for doing exactly as he was designed?

This whole damn war is 'illegal' every participant is basicallly participating in a war crime. This is not justice, its a whitewash to make it seem as though they are actually doing something about the torture.

[Shakespeare]

38. And MY point is that you're wrong to suggest Graner should get off.

I have no "bloodlust" for Graner, and you've got a lot of gall to suggest that I do. Being glad that a sadist is going to prison is not equivalent to bloodlust, and you know it.

Just because you're angry--we're ALL angry--that the ones who gave the orders are not being punished, does not mitigate what Graner did. He tortured those men, he ENJOYED torturing those men, and he deserves to go to prison for that. Just because others are getting away with it doesn't mean Graner should. His crime wasn't getting "caught," his crime was the crime.

[Chicago Democrat]

42. If he had a competant lawyer, then the trial would have followed up

the chain of command. It is so plainly obvious that this "trial" is a sham. It is so plainly obvious that this man is being sacrificed to cover for higher ups culpability.

I think Nazis and even Saddam deserve honest trials. The lawyer did not use the ample evidence that torture was authorised. That line of defense was not even raised!

Why wasn't anything about the authorization of torture used? Why did his lawyer make idiotic statements about cheerleaders? Why?

Because he is a FALL GUY. Like John Waker Lind. Like that Guantanimo chaplain. This is a set up. This is bullshit. I'm glad you're pleased, but it stinks to me. BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW THAT's THE END OF IT!


So the idea that this is somehow progress, I find delusional.

[Shakespeare]

44. Of course it stinks.

You keep trying--to no avail--to insist that I don't want to see the prosecution go UP the chain of command, and that's simply not the case.

Graner is more of a token than a fall guy--a fall guy is generally someone who isn't guilty. Graner is most certainly guilty, but he's a token conviction. See the difference?

[Heddi]

19. "Just following orders" DOES NOT FLY

Was he following orders? YES
Were there others who gave him those orders? YES

BUT that does NOT NEGATE THE FACT THAT HE TORTURED THOSE PRISONERS

Those who ordered the abuse should be strung high and long...but we should not set examples to the world that eh...that pesky Neuremburg trial meant NOTHING.

He is GUILTY. So are others. But the guilt of others does not negate his guilt ONE SINGLE BIT.

If disobeying the order meant he was discharged..so be it.

If disobeying the order meant he was court marshalled...so be it.

He doesn't even GET the severity of what he did. Alluded it was pranks. laughs. harmless fun.

HE
TORTURED
PRISONERS

END of story. There is nothing lighthearted, jovial or funny ha ha about that. AT ALL.

He is guilty. he should pay DEARLY for his crimes

[Chicago Democrat]

26. No...

This is a distraction from the gigantic crime that happens every single day. The guilt belongs at the TOP and dissappates as you go on down, not the other way around.



His only crime is being caught in a photo.

[Shakespeare]

29. "His only crime is being caught in a photo"

BULLSHIT!

His crime is the torture and, in at least one case, DEATH of Iraqi detainees.

[Heddi]

30. You made a point without realizing it

His only crime was getting CAUGHT

Had those photos never been taken, or had those photos stayed in the hands of people who find torture adn abuse funny, we would never know about these atrocities. We would never know the names Lyndie England or Grainer and the rest of those sociopaths.

Rumsfeld. Bush, Gonzales---they all approved of torture.

But Grainer was in the pictures. England was in the pictures. They're all smiling, having a great old time. They didn't look pressured to me. I saw no guns pointed at their heads. They were yucking it up. Just a frat party.

They are monsters that should never see the light of day again.

The blame starts at the top and is EQUAL the way down. Those who authorized it are JUST AS GUILTY as those who followed through. I mean, you wouldn't have an abuse scandal of this nature if there weren't sociopaths to DO the torture, would you?

[CourtJstc]

43. totally agree!

There was NO way he would've been found not guilty. "Following orders"
didn't work for the Nazis and it shouldn't work for Graner!

[Blue_Tires]

14. have fun starring in your own manpile in prison!!!

[onenote]

17. maybe he can join the prison cheerleading squad n/t

[NYC]

21. Found guilty of:

Graner, a 36-year-old reservist from Uniontown, Pa., was convicted of conspiracy, assault, maltreating prisoners, dereliction of duty and committing indecent acts.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20050114/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_graner

[Just Me]

36. Ya' know,...that "conspiracy" charge should go all the way up the chain

of command. Seriously. Conspiracy includes Gonzales, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, Card, Franks, Cheney and Bush. Seriously.

The cover-up of that conspiracy should have taken the whole freakin' lot of them down. But, until this is aggressively pursued, these criminals are not only loose but in charge.

:puke:

[NYC]

37. There is still hope.

[Straight Shooter]

22. Shaved the mustache so he would look more "innocent"

I agree with the posters who want justice to reach to the highest levels.

On the upside, maybe this sends a message to our congresscritters that Americans disapprove of torture.

Whaddaya say to this, Rush Limbaugh? Still think it's no worse than a frat prank?

edit typo

[Heddi]

23. I wonder how he'll feel being on the receiving end of torture now?

Going to prison, eh?

Former prison guard who had allegations of abusing prisoners in the civilian world. Military prison guard who is found guilty of torturing (excuse me...abusing) prisoners in the military world.

Gee whiz, Sgt Grainer...how shalt thou feel when thy is made into the prisoner, and the abuse is aimed at thyself instead of others?

I wonder if he'll pass it off as harmless fun then? Just for jokes? Fraternity pranks?

I wonder if he would feel like a male cheerleader should he be stripped naked, blindfolded, and piled atop other naked male prisoners.

I wonder if he'd be busting a gut should electrodes (non-working, supposedly) be attached to his genitalia and told that should he move an inch, volts will shoot through his body.

Oh a laugh riot should be had for all involved, especiall for Mr. Grainer, who seems to be the authority on what is and is not funny.

Pranks...pranks I say.

[Moderator]

25. Please edit post to make subject match title of article

Per rules for Latest Breaking News. If you want, you could put the 9 of 10 counts in parentheses afterwards.

Thanks!

[Bluebear]

27. Sorry, I typed the subject as it came up on CNN

before a link was avilable. Changed title now, thanks.

[NNN0LHI]

31. A soldier got 1 year for murdering an Iraqi kid today. No coverage of that

Wonder why?

Don

[VegasWolf]

32. I hope RumFilled is not breathing a sigh of relief now that the peon

has been hung.

[madrchsod]

33. well i`m glad that`s over

no reason for anyone to look any deeper---gonzo will make sure this never happend again..ya right

[AmerDem]

34. Don't drop the soap where you're going Baby Hughie

I hope this guy and everyone leading up to Rummy the Dummy live a slow pitiful existence.

[bluestateguy]

39. Send him to a prison in a Muslim country

That should straighten him out.

[Solly Mack]

40. It's a good start. Now get them all ..all the way up to Bush

Because they are ALL guilty.

[VLC98]

41. Who took the photographs?

It says "other soldiers took photographs". Who were these "other soldiers"? Were they witnesses in the trial? What about the numerous military people standing around obvious torture victims in some of the photo's? Were they all identified?
Obviously Graner is a piece of shit, but I daresay he was especially selected for the job, knowing they could easily blame it all on him if it came to light.

[CourtJstc]

45. they took pictures of each other

Lynddie England's trial starts soon, doesn't it???

[sarcasmo]

46. He is guilty, but this guy is the fall guy.

There are higher ups, Generals and Master Sergeants that need to fry for this as well.

[Shakespeare]

47. NOT a fall guy--a token. There's a difference.

Fall guy implies little or no guilt, which is NOT the case here.

[MasonJar]

48. What I object to is the moniker "ringleader." We know the real

ringleaders were following Bush in D.C.

[Democracy Died 2004]

49. Rot in hell fucker. n/t

[LibDemAlways]

50. Holding Graner accountable for

his role is all well and good. However, stopping with him would be like going after Manson's "family" while letting Charlie walk. I won't be satisfied until the whole evil cabal that approved the torture is punished for it.

[lovuian]

51. Its called Karma and he probably thought he was a Good Soldier

It only got him in jail!!!

[Righteous9]

53. Not Good -

Doesn't the very fact that this man was held accountable for the actions at Abu Ghraib prison, mean the buck stops with him? It implies that he was not following orders.

This man is not a shining example for humanity. He makes me sick...but he was following 'legalized' orders, not making or breaking them.

we call this an illegal war but we don't say that the men and women on the battlefield are committing murder. They aren't murderers...Bush and 'companies', are. they are merely following orders as good soldiers.

The example is set at the top. The top is responsible, and as our leaders, they set our tone. Our service-men and women, sad to say, are not well educated most of the time. The military offers them a lift out of their depressed surroundings, so they take it. Their superiors become their moral compass if these young men and women are impressionable, and most of them are.

We all are. A whole country of people helped to demonize and then slaughter the jews, because the propagandists at the top taught them who to hate. That doesn't make all german people bad, and not all of them should have been tried for war crimes after world war two. They were manipulated by the people in power.

This man is not the 'evil' ringleader. He's a pawn, and by being happy about the results of this trial, we are falling for the gambit. This is misplaced justice.

[NYC]

56. Abu Ghraib defendant seeks to lay blame on those higher up the chain

of command.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a3e99e7e-669b-11d9-a832-00000e2511c8.html

In the first trial of a soldier accused over the Abu Ghraib scandal, witnesses described how military police brutalised detainees at the notorious Baghdad prison, but provided scant evidence that interrogators had ordered them to do so...

...Nine Pentagon investigations have found that there was confusion over what interrogation techniques were permissible, but none has concluded that the US had a policy of torture.*

But the defence team of Specialist Charles Graner, an army reservist who faces more than 17 years in prison for his role in the abuses, set out to refute that argument this week at his court martial at Fort Hood, Texas...

..."As opposed to the few bad apples at the bottom of the barrel, the policymakers in Washington who 'set the conditions' are the watermelons at the top of the barrel."

More at link.
*It does not say that they concluded that the U.S. does not have a policy of torture. There is still hope for these charges to go up the line.

[daleo]

57. The real ring-leader's name is Bush

Graner, bad as he is, is a scapegoat.

[ausiedownunderground]

58. The Reputed ringleader of oh such a nasty gang!! LOL LOL

This is just a part of the Sickness in America called "JESUSLAND"!!