Alabama Woman Accused of Killing 12-Year-Old Daughter For Having Sex

[NNN0LHI]

Alabama Woman Accused of Killing 12-Year-Old Daughter Because She Was Angry Girl Had Sex

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBPQP1XY3E.html

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) - A woman angry with her 12-year-old daughter for having sex forced the girl to drink bleach and sat on her until the child died, a police detective said.

The girl's 9-year-old brother was forced to watch the attack, Detective Warren Cotton testified Thursday in a preliminary hearing for Tunisia Archie, 31.

Archie is charged with capital murder in the asphyxiation death of her daughter Jasmine. If convicted, she could be sentenced to death or life in prison without parole. snip

Archie forced Jasmine's 9-year-old brother Jacorey to watch the attack and "told him that if he shed a tear that she was going to kill him, too," Cotton testified.

more

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Glad we have those abortion notification laws

But you forgot the link, Don

[tk2kewl]

4. Excellent observation

:( :scared:

[David Zephyr]

5. Absolutely.

Must notify the parents so they can be murdered...fundie logic.

[okieinpain]

139. it's going to happen. but we still need notification laws. teens

should not be allowed to have abortions on demand.

[DearAbby]

2. Link please

:)

[maddezmom]

11. link here

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBPQP1XY3E.html

[tk2kewl]

3. Pathetically sad. But "capital murder"?

This is perfect fundigelical justice. Everyone gets to meet there maker no matter the gravity of the sin.

[Spinzonner]

13. What's your view ?

Self defense ?

Accidental ?

What other classification could there be ?

Sheesh.

[tk2kewl]

16. How is it not murder 2?

I thought capital murder required the commission of separate crime, or premeditation.

This woman is clearly just screwed up in the head. Send her away for 25 years to life, don't kill her and exacerbate the situation.

[St. Jarvitude]

23. Commission of a separate crime?

I guess that pouring bleach down her daughter's throat and then forcing her son to watch his sister DIE isn't child abuse.

[atre]

99. What he refers to is the felony murder rule

That is, if a crime is committed (without specific intent to kill) in the commission of a certain class of "inherently dangerous crimes" (which includes arson, rape, kidnaping, robbery, and a couple others), then first degree murder charges are available. Child abuse, while a crime, isn't included in that class.

First degree is also available when there is premeditation, however. In this case, there is clear premeditation since the mother poisoned her daughter. Premeditation means there was a specific intent to kill and a specific plan to do so formulated before the act which caused death; premeditation is always present in murders involving strangulation or poisoning, unless they are accidental.

[Walt Starr]

34. Premeditation can happen an instant before the crime

Premeditation occurred at the moment she forced the child to drink the bleach. Sitting on her was the crime.

Ergo, this is capital murder. Add in a felony child endangerment by forcing the nine year old to watch her murder her daughter and you've proven the premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt plus you have a second felony, ergo, this woman is eligible for the death penalty.

[rocktivity]

38. The defense will claim manslaughter at worst

You CAN'T believe that the mother MEANT for her daughter to die...

:eyes:
rocknation

[Dave Reynolds]

49. Her words to the 9-year-old

"I'll kill you too" kinda suggests that she had intent to kill the girl.

[jobycom]

53. I wondered about that, too. Did she say that before or after the daughter

died? If it was before, it was premeditated. If after, it's not so clear.

[Dave Reynolds]

57. I'm not sure from the article.

Maybe we'll see more on this one as it progresses.

[peacebird]

134. forcing the child to drink BLEACH

Ingesting household bleach can cause oral, esophageal and gastric burns as well as produce nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and abdominal pain.

Forcing a child to drink bleach and then sitting on her as she struggled and suffocated (likely on her vomit) is pretty much cold blooded murder, and to force her younger sibling to watch helplessly?

lock her up and throw away the key.

[okieinpain]

141. no give her the needle.

[NashVegas]

71. She Sat On the Kid

I'd call that pretty intentional.

[atre]

100. Depraved heart murder is murder 2, not manslaughter

The laws differ from state to state, but "extreme recklessness and disregard for the health or safety of another" (also known as depraved heart murder) is murder 2 in virtually every state.

Voluntary manslaughter is limited to a few situations in which the person is overcome by emotion and acts by pure impulse. There are only a few such situations articulated in the law, and the classic example providing for voluntary manslaughter is a man who walks in on his wife with another man, and kills one or both of them.

[atre]

102. Right on premeditation, wrong on the crime

The felony murder rule does not include child abuse in any state of which I am aware.

[progressivebydesign]

55. Um.. she OBVIOUSLY premeditated it.. here's why..

She told her son not to shed a tear while he watched, or she'd kill him too'. Sounds like she was planning and succeded in murdering her daughter. Killing the mother in this sounds fine with me. Gosh, maybe she can be released in 10 years or so and be a mommy to the son that she just screwed up forever. No thanks. What exactly would be the purpose of keeping this woman alive? Can't find one right now..

[livinginphotographs]

126. I think life in prison would be a much more fitting punishment.

You know what other prisoners think about child-killers, especially women prisoners who have killed their OWN children.

I'm still against the death penalty in all cases (not trying to turn this into a death penalty flame war thread), but I have no problem with throwing her into general population and let what happens happen.

[okieinpain]

142. no the needle would be a lot better.

[livinginphotographs]

146. Sorry, I don't support state-sanctioned murder.

Revenge will not bring her daughter back.

[okieinpain]

148. I heard this from a commercial for a video game, but it's so fitting

it's not revenge, it's punishment. that says it all.

[livinginphotographs]

149. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

This doesn't need to turn into another death penalty flamewar.

[okieinpain]

140. yep she should get the death penalty

[ixion]

6. ah, aren't religious zealots wonderful

how very sad. :-(

[PurityOfEssence]

90. There ya go: the unspoken words

god god god god god

Weird assumptions don't have anything to do with anything. Nope.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

7. oh my

wow, how could she justify killing her?
this is crazy.

[WI_DEM]

8. Well which is worst?

child abuse and murder or a 12-year old child who obviously had little parental guidance having had sex? hmm.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Link here.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/14/daughter.killed.ap/

[Rainscents]

10. These anti-sex nut head

seems to think, they can stop teenagers from having sex. Teens are going to be teens, there's nothing in the laws is going to stop the teens from not having sex.

[skygazer]

14. She did stop her from having sex

That kid will never have sex again. Or anything else except a funeral.

[Rainscents]

20. So sad...

I want to scram!!!!!!!!! This country is going crazy!!!

[Occulus]

97. I'm sure you meant "scream"

but, somehow, 'scram' is sooooo apt.....

[fob]

12. I can't blame him for forgetting the link, I think I'm going to be sick

What in the hell is going on with people that are doing these things to children?

That woman who drowned her kids, the woman her cut her baby's arms off...

I need to scream.

[Straight Shooter]

15. This woman had a short fuse. Anything could have set her off.

The sex was an excuse. Probably always wanted to kill her daughter. She was probably 19 when the child was born, resented her all her life. And look how little she thinks of her son, that if he shed a tear he would be murdered also.

Sat on her daughter and asphyxiated her. What a POS.

[saltpoint]

17. As Zeus used to morph into swans and eagles --

-- so does Jahweh occasionally morph into mortal Southern fundamentalist parents.

It's that 'smite' thing, I guess.

If I were that 9-year old I would hop the next Greyhound out of Alabama so fast it would makeyour head spin.

I'm picturing some hyper-Baptist congregation in the state listening this coming Sunday to its preacher railing at them, "Now if Judge Roy Moore had been allowed to keep the 10 Commandments statue in his Courthouse, this never woulda happened!"

nothingshocksmeanymore -- you absolutely nailed it down in your comment. Thanks for that.

[CottonBear]

77. Hey. This isn't a "southern" problem.

This sort of awful tragedy could happen anywhere. Go easy on us Southerners. We've got enough problems as it is.

[saltpoint]

82. It's true that it could have happened anyplace and true --

-- also that not all fundamentalists are in the South.

But Alabama must own up to the Judge Roy Moore demographic, and that is what I was getting at. I didn't make the distinction well enough.

[CottonBear]

87. I agree with your "Judge Moore" demographic angle...

There ARE those types in Alabama and the rest of the south too. Not all of us, however, are in that group. I will say that it is MAYBE more socially acceptable to be in that demographic group if one lives in the south. My LA in-laws, for example, expressed the opinion that they would vote for David Duke if he ran for public office again. Not everyone thinks like that but many do.

[saltpoint]

89. Agreed. I'm a Faulkner fan, and Mississippi is as --

-- alive to me as anyplace in the nation. I have in-laws in Ohio near Cincinnati who would consider David Duke too liberal.

So I agree it's not only a Mason-Dixon Line kind of thing.

[arcane1]

18. fuck death, give that monster LIFE IN PRISON

a few decades with other prisoners who don't like people who murder their children :grr:

I'll bet $100 this demon was anti-choice, too

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[madrchsod]

24. a voice of reason!

justice fitting the crime-the rest of her life just waiting for someone to put an end to it....

[meow2u3]

40. This monster's idea of pro-life

Don't kill your kids before they're born. Do it 12 years after they're born.

[arcane1]

44. but that is apparently ok

spare the blessed fetus and kill the child, makes perfect sense

to a lunatic, anyway :puke:

[QC]

69. How do you know she's "pro-life"?

Do you have access to some article the rest of us haven't read?

[Lorien]

54. So true. My dad works at a state woman's prison

the women who have killed their kids are loathed by the other inmates. My dad's a shrink and keeps those women on suicide watch. Most of them want to die, but aren't allowed to.

Another interesting fact; states with the death penalty have a higher rate of homicide. Maybe the criminals are more afraid of life in prison...

[reprobate]

133. Her "Life in Prison" would be a short one.

Unless she was in perpetual solitary confinement, those in general population would likely apply the popular sentiment to child murderers.

Capital punishment administered by her peers.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heddi]

21. Hey! At least it's a deterrent...that girl will never have sex again!!!

As much as I absolutely disapprove of the death penalty and use of torture/inhumane treatment in ALL cases...this woman surely tests my thoughts...not really, but sheesh! Making the kid drink bleach? that's a bit.....eh....the woman killed her daughter and forced her son to watch and threatened him if he cried. I guess calling the act(s) "insane" would just be a bit too much of an understatement.

[TXDemGal]

22. That'll teach the hussy

Wonder how the surviving son will do? Can you say Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

[ooglymoogly]

25. where is carrie when we need her

she would have made short shrift of that degenerate old bitch.

[Megahurtz]

26. I'm taking it that this was

down in the Bible-thumping belt?:crazy:

[prolesunited]

27. Think of how that poor girl

must have suffered.

Eyes, ears, nose, and throat
Severe pain in the throat
Severe pain or burning in the nose, eyes, ears, lips, or tongue
Loss of vision

Gastrointestinal
Severe abdominal pain
Vomiting
Burns of the esophagus (food pipe)
Vomiting blood
Blood in the stool

Heart and blood vessels
Hypotension (low blood pressure) develops rapidly
Collapse


Prognosis or Expectations
The prognosis (probable outcome) depends on how rapidly the alkali was diluted and neutralized. Extensive damage to the mouth, throat, eyes, lungs, esophagus, nose, and stomach are possible.

The ultimate outcome depends on the extent of this damage. Damage continues to occur to the esophagus and stomach for several weeks after the alkali was swallowed, and death may occur as long as a month later.
http://health.allrefer.com/health/bleach-prognosis.html

It's unimaginable.

[FizzFuzz]

85. this is the part of the story I get stuck at.

I WANT TO SCREAM FOR THESE KIDS BEING MURDERED BY RAVING PURITANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I HATE THEM AND EVERY SPOUTER OF IDEOLOGY that encourages their violent hate of themselves and everyone else in it.

I can't even think of what should be done with IT at this point. Calmly discussing legalities is beyond me right now.

I HATE THEM and I just want them to GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



uhg, geez, sorry but I just couldn't hold that in.

[QC]

105. How do you know that her motivation was religious?

I've read three articles on the crime, two from the newspaper in the city where it happened, and none of them mention anything about the mother being a "puritan" or what have you. Do you have access to some information that the rest of us have not seen? If you do, please feel free to share it.

[FizzFuzz]

123. feel free to look in a dictionary

You don't know the definition of puritan. When I said puritan, I meant

adj.
Of or relating to the Puritans or Puritanism.
puritan Characteristic of a puritan; puritanical.
<The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.>


puritan

adj : morally rigorous and strict; "blue laws"; "the puritan work ethic"; "puritanic distaste for alcohol"; "she was anything but puritanical in her behavior" n 1: adheres to strict religious principles; opposed to sensual pleasures 2: a person excessively concerned about propriety and decorum
< WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University>

If I meant christian fundamentalist southern baptist right winger evangelist I would have said that.

[QC]

130. OK. You meant "puritan" in a strictly non-religious sense,

since the word has no religious connotations. Sure. Whatever.

Fact is, we do not know enough about the case to know what motivated this woman. It could have been some kind of religious fanaticism turned violent, of course. It could also have been drug-related. She might be plain old crazy, which seems likely to me. There might be a history of conflict between this woman and her daughter that escalated into this. And so on. There's simply no way for us to know anything but the bare facts of the case right now.

But that's not enough to stop some DUers from seeing the word "Alabama" and launching into all their favorite bigotries. That's really what has happened in this thread, and we all know it.

[reprobate]

135. Her 'motivation' is immaterial.

The fact is that she abused and poisoned her own daughter, and then suffocated her. All the while threatening her son with the same treatment if he showed any sympathy toward his sister. Unless she is found by law insane (which is far different than our definition of the word) at the time of the crime, her 'motivation' has no bearing. As they say on tv, the facts speak for themselves.

I must admit that I feel biased in this case. I unobjectively imagine the unbearable pain the child experienced from the ingestion of bleach.

After time as an LEO and all the interveaning years of life experience I had thought I was inured to all the ways we can hurt each other. I was wrong. This case rises to new levels of 'evil'.

[FizzFuzz]

136. read me whatever way you want.

I was shaking with anger when I wrote that post, but I made an effort to choose a word that connoted a strict, angry, punishment, anti-sex meaning without specifying a religious group. I purposely avoided choosing the word christofascist or christian-taliban, which would have been my choice had the story included references to commandments from god, or the singing of hymns.

Fact is, percentage of christian fundamentalists in AL is very high. That influences everyone's "values", whether they themselves are "believers" or not. And undereducated, ignorant or mentally ill people are particularly vulnerable to the black and white, simplistic fear-based thinking that fundamentalism offers.

But what is really on my mind is, what the HELL is up with YOU, that you're focusing self-righteously on MY PC-ness?? Does that make you a virtuous progressive? Maybe ignoring realities in favor of screaming at others who aren't toeing the ideology line strictly enough for you is a form of religious fundamentalism?

Why don't you try opening your heart and offering fervent prayer for this little kid who was FORCED TO DRINK BLEACH???!!!! Go back and read the post that describes the physical effects of that.

Imagine yourself in that child's reality for a moment, and offer sincere prayers for her happiness, and for inspiration on how you and I and we as a group can help turn the tide.

Why are you obsessed with whether I am bashing a particular religion? I can't believe that's more important to you than thinking of ways to educate people away from violence, or wondering how we as a society can provide more options for women, so that they will have strategies to help them avoid the trap of having children because they don't feel capable of any other options.

Then, go support Planned Parenthood and their education efforts, and your local shelter for abused women.

[QC]

137. What's wrong with me?

I'm tired of seeing tragedies turned into nothing more occasions for the self-righteous at DU to re-spew their favorite bigotries yet again, which has become a constant thing here since the election. Someone points to an act of criminality and/or stupidity in a state where a majority voted for Bush and others leap in with unfounded, baseless speculation attributing that act to everyone who lives there.

Did you catch the thread about the small town in Louisiana that recently lost six people in the war? Quite a few DUers were falling all over themselves to rush in and declare that the bastards deserved it for voting for Bush. (Of course, they had no way of knowing for whom these people voted, but when did mere facts ever get in the way of someone eager to proclaim his or her own righteousness and heap condemnations upon the wicked?) It was positively ghoulish--six dead people were nothing more than grist for the mill.

I can well appreciate your passion here, because this is a monstrous crime and the thought of how that girl suffered--and how her mother will have to live with what she has done--is almost unbearable. I believe you when you say that you did not want to make this a religious discussion, and if I had known that, I would not have reacted as I did. There have been many posts here that have rushed to make what happened a matter of religious fanaticism gone violent, even though there is nothing in the facts of the crime that we now have to suggest that. For these people, they see the word "Alabama" and that is all the evidence they need. That is bigotry, and it's something that we should know better than to engage in. If you doubt me, consider what would have been the reaction here if people had made the same kinds of unfounded speculations based on this woman's race or sex. Tombstones would have been flying right and left and the thread would have vanished.

As for getting out and volunteering and all that, you have no need to worry about me. I became a teacher so that I could help people have a better shot at life. In other words, I spend the majority of my waking hours trying to educate people away from these things, not merely thinking about it. It's satisfying work, and I wouldn't do anything else.

It sounds like you and I are mostly in agreement here, and I am sorry that there has been any conflict between us.

[okieinpain]

143. funny thing is they hate you for having the sex, yet want you to

have the baby. then hate you if you need help.

[livinginphotographs]

127. I think that was the worst of it.

Asphyxiation is one thing; but drinking bleach will basically burn you from inside out.

She didn't just stop breathing, she died a slow, torturous death.

This is just beyond disgusting.

[Ripley]

129. I heard her attorney say there was no evidence of bleach ingestion.

I live in the area and saw it on local TV. He said the medical examiner reported that there was no burning of the esophagus or mouth to indicate bleach there. Who knows? Maybe it was an empty bottle of Clorox filled with soapy water?

The woman was/is either mentally unhinged or was stoned out of her mind. The fact that her 12 year old daughter was 5'10" and 240 is pretty shocking to me. This is an awful case that should not be used by people on this board to further their unreasonable hatred of all people in the South.

This won't be the first or last case where a mother or child was mentally ill or on drugs and alcohol and committed a heinous crime. It's just too bad these cases seem to be cropping up more often now.

We have a very sick country.

[livinginphotographs]

131. I live in the South, so let me play devils advocate for a moment.

From reading the thread, it looks like some people wrongly jumped to the conclusion that she was a white fundie. Turns out she was black, and probably on drugs, and that this was most likely the result of that rather than religious zealotry.

That said, I've lived in various parts of the South my entire life, and have traveled all over the southeast, and can safely say that jumping to that conclusion is not completely without reason. There are some great people in the south, and I'm not one bit ashamed to be from here. There are also some sick, racist, fundie assholes all over the place, and sometimes I get the feeling that the normals are outnumbered by the loonies.

Outright bigotry against the south is inexcusable, but realizing that we probably have more than our share of loonies down here, occasionally jumping to the wrong conclusion is understandable. I don't hold it against anyone.

And yes, we do have a very sick country. As the days go by, I feel more and more embarrassed to call myself a member of the human race.

[Ripley]

132. I don't see it that way.

I don't think the South has more of a share of loonies that the rest of the country. Yep, it's got some Ultra-Freaks, but where do those serial killers usually come from?

Anyway, since I've lived here I've seen some really sick shit done by blacks, latinos and whites. So I wouldn't "naturally" jump to the conclusion that bizarre violent murder is a white Fundie. I would first think - as it usually turns out to be - DRUGS and ALCOHOL in the person. Like the black girl who cut the baby out of the stomach of another black woman in Tuscaloosa a few years ago. Sick, sick, sick.

Our country is having a major breakdown and I'm sure it can all be traced back to DumbAsses policies. The tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of social programs is probably the number one cause of despair and the resulting increase use of drugs or lack of treatment for mental illnesses, thus increase of crimes.

[okieinpain]

144. yeah I figured she was black. I'm a racist, the name was a give

away.

[livinginphotographs]

145. Um, huh?

I hope you're not implying that I'm a racist, as I was not implying that anyone on this thread was.

Another poster who lived in the area said that she was interviewed on TV, and she was black. That's where I got that bit of info.

[okieinpain]

147. no I'm saying that I guess I am. when I saw the name I figured she

was black.

[livinginphotographs]

150. That doesn't necessarily mean you're a racist.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I hope you don't think that I was implying that.

[okieinpain]

151. ok, but just wanted you to know I was talking about myself. I'm

one of those people that will assign race by voice tone over the phone. by the way I'm black.

[DemBones DemBones]

28. Please take note that the article mentions nothing about religion as a

contributing factor. Posters are projecting their prejudices against religion. What other motive could there be? Maybe the mother didn't want her daughter to ruin her life and felt that becoming sexually active at 12 was a step toward a screwed-up life. Maybe this was the culmination of many conflicts between mother and daughter. Whatever caused it, it's a terrible thing.

[arcane1]

31. didn't want her daughter to ruin her life

that problem is solved :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

I think ppl are speculating fundi-ness because so many violent extreme anti-sex folk tend to be fundies

[Der Blaue Engel]

36. Your life can't get much more ruined than being snuffed out

I have no comment about the potential religious affiliation of the murderer, but it is quite clear that she did not do this out of frustration or concern for her daughter, but out of a sick concept of morality. Christian dogma-related morality or not, the woman got the idea from somewhere that a girl was better off dead than sexual. That's generally gotten from a fundamentalist religion. There a couple around; take your pick.

Another thought...though there are certainly many kids who are sexually active that young, I would consider it a fair chance the girl was not entirely consenting. Since her mother is a psychotic sadist, there was probably much abuse going on in that household.

And now that I've finished my post, I'm going to go be sick. :(

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sonicx]

48. Oh, there are plenty of black fundies out there...

Blacks are probably more conservative on social issues like abortion and homosexuality than whites.

[Ripley]

50. Yeah, I know that, I live here.

But the woman in the courtroom looked doped out, unhealthy. And she did not give any indication that her religion made her do it.

I found this in my local paper....very bizarre...12 year old was BIG:

snip>>
Jasmine was 5 feet 10 and weighed 240 pounds, while the mother is tall and slender. But the medical examiner ruled that Jasmine died from asphyxia, which is caused by suffocation, and was found dead, on her back, in her bedroom.
snip>>

[rocktivity]

81. Twelve years old, nearly six feet tall and MORE THAN TWO HUNDRED POUNDS?

Before I let any child of mine weigh that much, I'd padlock the refrigerator and cut off her allowance so she couldn't buy her own food. Her self-esteem was probably so down in dumps she considered it a blessing that someone was interested in having sex with her. And her mother was tall but slender? What a disappointment Jasmine must have been to her--it sounds like that child was abused in more ways than one.

P.S. John Cleese of Monty Python fame was six feet tall at the age of twelve. He said he solved his self-esteem problems by becoming the class comedian...

:headbang:
rocknation

[Redstone]

29. I got ten bucks that says

the woman who killed her daughter describes herself as a Devout Christian.

(This is not meant as an insult to all those out there who are REAL Christians; it's an observation on how many times we seem to hear people describe themselves as Devout Christians, then do all kinds of horrible things that Jesus would have not condoned.)

That poor little girl...

Redstone

[atre]

104. Actually, I doubt that

Maybe superficially Christian, but not a regular church-goer or anyone familiar with the true nuances of the religion.

My bet would be the killing was motivated by her revulsion with the other child the girl had sex with; I bet he was a minority.

[QC]

106. "I bet he was a minority."

Actually, the mother and the victim, judging from their neighborhood and the school the girl attended, are "minorities."

It's amazing what people can come up with when they make wildass assumptions about things they know nothing about.

[atre]

114. Excuse me?

You make an assumption based on where they live. I make mine based on the psychology of lower class white culture in the South. I could be wrong, but so could you. How is your wildass assumption any different than mine?

[QC]

117. My assumption is based on personal knowledge of Birmingham's

neighborhoods and schools. I lived in the area for years, have friends and family there, know my way around, visit from time to time, etc.

It's amazing to see all the speculation that has been slung around in this particularly nutty thread. To some, this is a case of Margaret White come to life. To others, it is an episode of "In the Heat of the Night," with a backwoods mother coming home from the snakehandling and trying to drive the demons of lust out of her fallen daughter. Others see the hand of "the Roy Moore constituency" at work. Yet all we have here at present are the barest facts of the case.

And I can assure you, as a product of "lower class white culture in the South," that it is not the norm for us hayseeds to murder our children. Shocking, I know.

[atre]

118. QC

I also grew up in the South, albeit a different part, and it's been my experience that there is nothing more scandalous among many pockets of lower-class whites than an interracial relationship. Maybe my part is much different than Alabama, but based on the persons I know from that area, I wouldn't think so. Of course it is not the norm to murder children among Southern lower class whites, but that doesn't mean that a possible psychological reaction to such news played no part.

You do have a point about people jumping to conclusions here, but aside from a few incindiary comments about the South and a few unjustified efforts to tie this murder to religious conservatism, I don't see what's so inherently wrong about speculation.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sonicx]

30. I'm sure she learned her lesson...

:(

[VegasWolf]

32. This is just too unbelievable!n/t

[housewolf]

33. I share everyone's outrage about this

It's a tragedy and I am full of compassion for the young girl who died and her brother.

But I want to point out that we are making some assumptions here that reflect our biases back to us.

For instance, there are lots of statements here about the woman being a fundamental/evangelical christion. That may be the case however there is no evidence of that in the article. The article doesn't mention anything about the woman's background or life at all other than that the article is an Alabama resident. We ASSUME that she is a fundie/evangelicalist but we don't know that. Making that assumption shows that we have a bias that we hold about this type of behavior being a result of or connect to fundamentalism/evangelicalism. It may or may not, but look how quickly we jump to that conclusion.

I am not trying to talk anyone out of being outraged - of course acts like this require our outrage and condemnation. I'm just bringing this up so that we (or at least some of us) can take a look at a particular bias that we hold that may not be in our best long-range interests, we being the party of inclusion who pride ourselves on our lack of bias.

[Walt Starr]

35. All I see is a cold blooded murderess

who could receive the death penalty for her crimes.

[kimchi]

39. I don't see it as a matter of bias against religion.

I see at as a matter of putting facts together to form a logical conclusion. The majority of women and men who have killed their children lately have been extreme fundamentalists. It isn't bias, but it is conjecture to think this woman who lived in AL might just be a religious nut too. I'd call it an educated guess.

Any way you slice it she needs to be in jail or a mental ward.

[SomeYoungGuy]

88. The same standard could be applied to other areas.

Take terrorism for an example. How many non-Muslims have committed suicide bombings or hijacked airliners in the last 10 years? If we "form a logical conclusion" and make "an educated guess," wouldn't we take a closer look at Muslims boarding airplanes for more security scrutiny?

Oh, that's an uncomfortable question because we're stereotyping non-Christians, and that can't be right, huh?

It's amazing where logic takes us when we don't use the facts presented. The article doesn't mention religion, so I fail to see how logic can take us to "this woman killed her child for having sex because the mom is religious." I'm not suggesting that she is or isn't religious, only that a stereotype is being broadly and unfairly applied. This stereotype is just as incorrect and unfair as the one I cite as an example.

If you know the mom or are somehow aware of the her religious convictions, then I stand corrected.

[President Kerry]

93. good point - this has nothing to do with politics.

This woman deserves to live out her miserable life in jail, and miserable it will be. But she was overobsessed with "morals" - fanatical really, and that makes it likely she would project it to things like abortion. You're right, there's nothing factual about her faith. But it's a good guess she was an evangelical.

The point is, it doesn't make her crime any more or less monstrous than it is.

[sonicx]

42. Yes, I have a bias against fundamentalism...

I admit it and don't care. :)

[jobycom]

56. Exactly

I was going to point that out, too. The article doesn't give a religious or any other motive, and there is not anywhere near enough detail in this story to know whether the woman is sane, paranoid-schizophrenic, cold-blooded, acted in a blind rage, or what. We don't know if she meant to kill the daughter or just punish her. We don't know if the threat made to the nine year old child was before, during, after the attack, or if the cop even represented it word for word, or was citing his own interpretation of what she said. We don't know anything, and as usual with today's media, there just isn't enough detail in this story for us to pretend we do.

I like to know a little more about someone before I kill them. Just my own personal bias there. I don't trust the media as much as some people here, I guess.

[kaho]

68. ...bravo, well said..

[saltpoint]

86. You make a point, but I believe it is a very thin --

-- argument that this mother's rage and murder of her daughter for having sex was prompted by anything less than the notion that it was a "transgression" against scripture.

You're right that we don't have the clinical testimony. But I bet we're sniffin' 'round the right tree.

----
edit: typo

[housewolf]

91. You could very well be right

And I admit to making the assumptions myself.

I've been listening lately to "compalints" red-state folks have against blue-state folks, and one of them is that we discount and look down upon them, belittle them. I've been trying to notice where I and others might actually do that and noticed that one way is through the assumptions we make and the labels and classiffications we use.

It's not a big deal and I didn't post in order to make it a big deal, it just seem worthy of shing some light in that direction in case anyone wanted to look. It seems worth asking the question: how does an unconscious bias manifest itself? How does a person becme conscious of their unconscious biases, if they choose to?

[saltpoint]

92. One thought might be to ask why a few of those --

-- Red State folks fired on Fort Sumpter. Or why U.S. presidents had to get on the telephone to enjoin Southern governors to the Civil Rights movement. Or why Southerners won't vote for candidates from New England.

I think the Red Staters can dish it out as well as anybody.

Leave some room for them to re-examine their own biases.

[QC]

96. Another thought might be:

why are so many Democrats so enamored of a corporate media talking point designed to exaggerate the GOP's power that they repeat it endlessly?

[saltpoint]

101. True of any number of such points. Right?

Burroughs considered language to be a virus. The media is sort of a germ lab in that construct.

[bluestateguy]

37. Al From and the DLC says we need to "connect" with these poeple

I say we need to fight them and defeat them, not appease them and try to "understand" them.

[QC]

41. The DLC wants us to connect with child-murderers?

Damn them! Is there any limit to their evil?

[Ripley]

47. What in the hell is wrong with this board?

Now they are equating anyone who lives in a red state to crack head freaks who murder their children!

[jobycom]

62. I know

I've never lived outside of a red state, and have spent very little time outside out of the South. I guess my daughters should be terrified of me, and the next time Howard Dean reaches out to the likes of me, someone should crucify him. You and I can't be trusted, Ripley.

[QC]

70. The haters have taken over, Ripley.

People always become what they hate, and some of our friends have spent so much time and energy hating the freepers that they have become them.

[Occulus]

103. That's not what I got from the comment at all

I took it as meaning they want us to connect with people like this..... woman. I won't say 'mother' since she obviously wasn't fit to wear the title in the first place.

I'll agree a lot of assumptions are being made in this thread. That's why I'm not assuming he was openly bashing the South. I can see how it could be taken that way, though...

[jobycom]

64. Quick! Under the bed! In the Closet! Look out!

It's the DLC Boogeyman, and he's coming to get you!

[Cocoa]

124. DLC officially proposed the VCPFF law

Vigilante Capital Punishment For Fornication law. Lieberman I think came up with it.

[MrSlayer]

43. Made her drink bleach? Well that's what should be done to her.

Of course that would be "barbaric" so it will never happen. When she is convicted they should take her right to the gallows. This is a sick disgusting crime against not just the child she killed but the other child who was forced to watch as well. I have no time or tears for child murderers.

[Mend]

45. This girl was a victim of statutory rape...

possibly incest. There is no indication that she even willingly had sex. Sometimes these mothers go ballistic because the man involved is their husband or boyfriend.

[Sequoia]

58. My thoughts exactly

God, this is an outrage. I wish I'd never found out about it, now I'll think about forever. I hope that mother gets ripped to shreds.

[against all enemies]

51. Another "moral voter" for Bush no doubt.

[moobu2]

52. This is so awfull, she has to be a fundie

Sorry to you level headed believers, but this is classic fundieism

[FreakinDJ]

84. MY Thoughts EXACTLY

The Moral Higher Values are coming out.

[Toucano]

59. RIP Jasmine.

eom

[pokercat999]

60. IMHO it obvious she is mentally ill...eom

[Ilsa]

61. "And that's ......what I like.... about the Soooouuuth!"

I can clearly remember Nick Nolte sarcastically singing that in "The Prince of Tides".

I wonder what the rest of this story is.

That poor child. Statutory rape, then murdered by her own mother. When I hear stories like this I can't help but wish there was a reasoning test that went along with giving birth.

[rockedthevoteinMA]

63. This is horrid!!!!! n/t

[jobycom]

65. Another link

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1105438507146520.xml

"Mental evaluation ordered in slaying:

A judge has ordered a mental evaluation for a woman accused of forcing bleach down her daughter's throat and sitting on the girl until she suffocated. The order, signed Jan. 5, calls for an outpatient evaluation of Tunisia Archie's competency to stand trial and mental state during the incident, court records show. Archie, 31, of Wylam, is charged with capital murder in the Nov. 26 death of Jasmine Archie, 12, a Bush Middle School student. Archie remains jailed without bond. Her attorney said her problems include severe depression. Court-appointed attorney David Luker said Monday a state doctor has started some aspects of the evaluation. Once the exams are complete, Luker said, he'll have private physicians review the report and evaluate Archie. Archie is scheduled to return to a Jefferson County courtroom Thursday for a preliminary hearing. Chanda Temple -- "

Not much more information.

[rocktivity]

67. "Jasmine Archie...(was) a Bush Middle School student..."

A BUSH Middle School student????

:crazy:
rocknation

[symbolman]

66. I've been crucified by the Alabama court system

and it is BARBARIC.

You can LITERALLY KILL/MURDER a kid there and get away with it and the KIDS KNOW IT..

I know of one case there where the father held his own son down with a garden hose in the boy's mouth as the stepmother cheered him on - the poor boy died (a teen) and the father was given 5 years PROBATION and about 3 or 4 months in Jail..

for killing his own son with full intent.

I was sentenced to a YEAR in their county jail for my "tone of voice" in an illegally recorded conversation with my 15 year old son - I hired SIX lawyers and fought it all the way up to the Alabama Supreme Court (who refused to hear the case) and now there are precedents for SICK custodial mothers to record ALL Conversations secretly and vicariously refuse to allow police to use them, or use them to screw their ex husbands..

I lost a house over that case and am still broke as a result - in the end I served 20 days in HELL, in Lockdown for 5 of them, with Murderers and Rapists and insaniacs..

There is NO Justice in Alabama, just a bunch of sick, Fundie RIght wing judges who rule from the bench and you'll never get a fair trial no matter how far you go..

my ex has always been allowed to keep my sons, despiste BITING live in boyfriends TWICE in one year, getting DUIS twice in a week, driving my kids around drunk and then *I* (who have NO criminal record) get JAILED when I show up to save my kids from a maniac..

My ex actually Sat on my older son's chest at age 9 choking him while my 4 year old ran around screaming - the older son swears to this day that she was killing him - and each time I've called the Child Protective agency it all gets laughed off -- because I'm some "liberal" from "california" and not from "these parts"..

they are hateful and insane down there and they should be kicked out of the United States - there is no legal system other than a cottage industry to jail and put everyone on probation to fine and OWN them -- they do nothing but ENSLAVE people and cause irreperable harm to the kids down there.

If the earth opened up and swallowed Alabama and sent it straight to hell I would party for a week.

Sorry to anyone sane that lives there, but that's the most severely fucked up state in the Union and I have nothing but hate and contempt for it - they stole my kids, let a psychotic raise them, and jailed ME for no reason (never missed a child support or medical payment, even paid for shrinks that my ex refused to take my kids to)..

Scummy, racist, man hating, right wing, phony Christian Hypocrite Judges, ALL of them.

I wish the Feds would go into that state and burn it down, fat chance with one of their own GWBUSH in office.

If the media didn't get a hold of this case, this woman would get probation and little jail time, mark my words.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Syrinx]

74. words of wisdom, those

:eyes:

[QC]

76. Yeah, and the constant repetition just makes them that much wiser.

:eyes:

[Syrinx]

78. yeah, I must be getting really wise myself

Having seen the story at least a dozen times.

[President Kerry]

94. what'd he say?

[Syrinx]

83. I do have this straight, don't I?

You say ALL the judges here are phony, hypocritical bigots, and that "they are hateful and insane down there," and should be swallowed up by the earth, or burned alive by the federal government. So you are the good California liberal, and you want four-and-a-half million (mostly) innocent people (including your kids) to die a horrible death. Ah, I see. All that good liberal logic and compassion I've heard so much about. Refreshing.

[atre]

111. Well

Mr. S., I know there is little that would console you as to those events, but you may be pleased to know that the case in which you were involved was is an unreported decision (as of this momen); as it stands now, it is not precedent for future decisions (although one recent case has distinguished it).

Based on my objective legal opinion, you were wronged. The "vicarious consent" doctrine as between parents and children already rests on shaky ground, and to stretch the meaning of "intimidate" to include mere persuasion is the ultimate in results-oriented legal sophistry. I don't know whether the opinion was predicated on xenophobia against Californians, but I do know that courts and even appellate courts are wrong all the time. It's a terribly inexact business, and the problem is only compounded by the intellectual limitations of the judges.

[symbolman]

120. thanks

seriously, I can tell you've done your homework - probably read the rulings, etc.

The Superior Court Brief reads like it was written by a sixth grader, of the 26 or so Rules of Evidence, there was only ONE that even Vaguely MAY had applied - results oriented sophistry is exactly correct.

It was a conspiracy and I wish to god I could find a good Federal lawyer, Civil Rights expert and go down there and sue the hell out of that particular Judge - violations of the Judicial Cannons, abuse of power, etc, and jail my ex, her lawyer and that Judge so that this kind of thing never happens to another person.

But of course it would be another waste of money, and all these lives have been ruined, moments never to be replaced.

I am the poster child for the ruthlessness of the system, and would love to have a shot at cleaning it up - I've got stacks of legal papers taller than both my sons - even beat my ex Pro Se twice before she decided to head for a place where the jails have been compared to South African prisons.

Now I have a new son, a loving wife and can have a normal life, unless I get dragged back to that hellhole for another lesson in hateful idiocy by a Judge who Doesn't even HAVE CHILDREN.

A Prosecutor - I've seen enough family Judges, having had to take my ex to court every single visitation for over 15 years, and this was no Family Judge.

I was set up, there was double jeopardy involved at minimum, and tho like Bush's win, there is no real way to Prove Conspiracy I would still bet my life on it.

If nothing else I'd love to expose the brutality of the Alabama jail system, Cool Hand Luke was a vacation compared to what I went through..

thanks for your words of wisdom.

[seaj11]

72. I just heard about this.

I'm in shock. I have never heard of anything like this. What a terrible way to die, and for no reason! The brother is in my thoughts. At the risk of sounding brutal, I hope that mother is locked away to rot for the rest of her life. :cry:

[President Kerry]

95. not brutal, very fitting n/t

[bling bling]

75. This thread is bananas.

I can't believe my eyes regarding so many responses. I am stunned. I normally don't rail against my peers here but I don't feel I'm amongst my "peers" on this thread at all, so I don't mind saying that some of these responses make me want to :puke:

[superconnected]

79. I don't understand it

How does a human being do that to another human being.

I don't get people.

[Paleocon]

80. Guess she won't do THAT again...

Hide those dirty pillows!

:crazy:

[burrowowl]

98. Bleach is a horrible way to go

if she suffocated the child before she suffered all the throes of dying from the bleach, she accidently gave the coup de grace.
What a horrible woman!

[98geoduck]

108. Maybe We Need someone like Rush Limbaugh to explain...

CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men --

LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?

[burrowowl]

112. Welcome to DU, 98geoduck!

any relation to gyrogearloose?
But back to the story, it is hard to image forcing anyone to drink bleach. Some suicides have survived it, but with permantently burn damaged esophagus, palette, tongue, larnyx, stomach, etc.

[98geoduck]

115. Thanks

I may have been accused of having a gyro gear loose on occasions, but no relation...

I'll also state that chlorine is an Awfully caustic chemical, and couldn't imagine the pain it had to have induced. Sickening...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

107. There's more to this story than the article reports...

"her daughter told her that she was no longer a virgin."

Was she raped, or was it consensual sex...or was the child even mature enough to tell the difference? Where's the father of these kids?

How awful for the brother!

[daleo]

109. More details are certainly needed to put this in perspective.

People act crazy for all kinds of reasons. But killing your own child in this fashion seems like the action of someone insane. The drinking bleach thing seems like an extreme variant of washing a child's mouth out with soap when they swear. I don't know if this shows the mother was totally out of touch with reality or hideously corrupted by some kind of religious dogma.

[Gemini Cat]

110. Wow.

Poor little girl.
I feel sorry for the brother who will now have to live with this for the rest of his life.

[truthisfreedom]

113. insane person again.

why are so many people nuts these days?

[98geoduck]

116. It's post partum millenia

Jesus didn't show up when he said he would, and some just can't handle the thought of waiting another thousand years....

[Voltaire99]

119. Chalk up another casualty to American Puritanism.

The Taliban would understand.

[JNelson6563]

121. I would read thread but....

I don't think I could bear to read even on foolish post that made excuses for this woman.

Julie

[The Flaming Red Head]

122. Another broken pane of glass

I wonder why she didn't kill the person who raped her underaged daughter.

Sounds like what they do to girls in some of the Muslim countries.

[BamaBecky]

128. For goodness sakes, bet she's "schizo" and off meds.........

how else could anybody "in their right mind" do such a thing? :shrug:


Bush & Co. will read this and say...yep we need to test their "mental health", especially in Alabama........

[Cobalt Violet]

138. An honor killing by the American Taliban.

This is no real surprise.

[madison2000]

152. There are no details here as to the kind of sex the daughter had or

why the mother was angry.

A few years ago there was a student at the University of Chicago who was abducted from campus, and taken to an apartment where she was raped. She reported the crime. She and her mother were from India, and her mothers and uncles reaction was that now that she was no longer a virgin it would be difficult to arrange a marriage for her. A week later she laid down on the railroad tracks and was run over by a train.

The rapist had been apprehended, but he was freed, as there was no longer a witness against him.

Many cultures make coming of age difficult for young women.

[Moderator]

153. locking

The thread is no longer providing productive discussion.