Abu Ghraib Abuse Ringleader Blames Superiors

[leftchick]

http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7335891

FORT HOOD, Texas (Reuters) - The U.S. military prison guard convicted of abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib said on Saturday he complained repeatedly to superiors about the rough treatment he was forced to mete out to prisoners.

Charles Graner, who was found guilty on Friday on 10 charges in the scandal that has badly damaged America's reputation, said during the sentencing phase of his court-martial that he was told to "follow orders."

The military jury that convicted Graner, seen as the ringleader in the Abu Ghraib abuse case, will consider later on Saturday whether to pass the maximum sentence of 15 years in prison.

~snip~

He named several higher-ranking people to whom he complained about the conditions or treatment forced upon the prisoners, citing isolation cells where he said they were kept on a limited sleep cycle and diet.

"We had a person in an isolation cell ... we were terrorizing him," he said referring to sleep deprivation tactics and erratic meal times.

"A lot of our off-the-wall stuff was from the civilian interrogator," Graner said. "We yelled and we screamed a lot."

When he complained to superiors, he said he was told to "follow your order, charge on."

[IStriker]

1. If this guy was ordered to do the things he did...

not to mention photograph them and send them via email to his friends at home, whoever picked him to do this, chose the right guy. As soon as this guy's name was released, the warden at the prison where this guy worked as a guard before his reserve unit was activated started receiving letters from prisoners who said he did the same kind of stuff to the prisoners he was guarding there.

[bipolarity1]

2. what else is he gonna say???

He should've said he was sorry or expressed remorse. I think he gets 10 years.

[NNN0LHI]

5. 10 years? A soldier got one year for murdering an Iraqi teenager yesterday

I say they give this guy a medal and send him on his way. He will be someones new neighbor in a few months.

Don

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[leftchick]

36. as usual on "this board"

you totally miss the point! :eyes:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Mr_Spock]

39. So, that is what's important on a discussion board?

You are a genius, a God - you are omnipotent. I wish I was as brilliant as you.

[leftchick]

41. lol...

if only!...

[leftchick]

7. he could say he heard this was a directive from *s CIA.....

:eyes:

[bipolarity1]

8. Why? He's already been convicted!!

He should've taken the stand to plead his case. Obviously he thought he couldn't survive cross examination! He should now be expressing remorse even if he doesn't feel it. His e-mails home will be the final nail in his coffin,

[barb162]

10. Remember a lot of Nixon's people went to jail for him? Why does

ANYONE go to jail for soemone else?

[LynnTheDem]

27. He was saying the TRUTH.

We ALL KNOW bush & his Cartel authorized torture.

BUSH and his entire administration should be rotting in jail alongside Graner.

[Just Me]

28. Agree. Only the sickest of minds advocate/perform torture!!!

They should all rot in a high-security prison 'cause they are the human scum of the earth!!!

[Bo]

40. Your right he was under orders...

Gonzales said torture was OK so whats the big deal here?

[readmylips]

45. Colin Powell was under orders to lie to the world....

Like a good soldier, Powell followed orders and thounsands of innocent people have been killed by bush and his criminals. And the American people foot the bill. And USA's name throughout the world is shit.

Like a good soldier, Granger followed orders, he'll be pardon by bush and soon will get a Fox job like Ollie North.

[Vidar]

3. If he's naming names, this need to be followed up.

[Just Me]

6. Did he actually name names?

Of course, I am of the opinion that this a trickle-down torture system created at the very top.

[bipolarity1]

9. no, he didn't

[Vidar]

15. Sound like it here.

"He named several higher-ranking people to whom he complained about the conditions or treatment forced upon the prisoners, citing isolation cells where he said they were kept on a limited sleep cycle and diet."

[LynnTheDem]

30. Yes he did.

Someone seems to be lost...

[TahitiNut]

33. Indeed.

:eyes:

[leftchick]

37. a couple of

someones... :eyes:

[Just Me]

42. Don't tell me our "liberal" media won't publish those names!!!

:cry:

Please, don't tell that *LOL*!!!! :mad:

*sigh*

[mediaman007]

4. Had he been found innocent, I doubt that he would have opened

his mouth. Apparently he had a pretty low breaking point.

[Tinoire]

11. Actually he had kept a diary and it's pretty damning to his superiors

his diary may be what saves his ass.

[bipolarity1]

12. His diary and his e-mails are one of the

reasons he was convicted so quickly, plus his reputation of abusing prisonr at his job in PA.

[Just Me]

20. That constitutes evidence that he did, in fact, follow orders,...

,...which kinda' makes this military trial really confusing to me.

I realize that he is obliged, no matter what, to adhere to laws pertaining to war. However, how does the "following orders of superiors" (which breach such laws) play in these matters?

Aren't the superiors automatically pulled into the fold per military justice?

I do understand that "politics" penetrate all justice systems (thwarting the possibility of a JUST system). What I do not understand is how on earth clear evidence of a chain-of-command approval of unlawful behavior can be,..."disappeared", so to speak.

BTW: Didn't you find it odd how confident and smiley-faced this guy was during the proceedings?

[Tinoire]

23. Was he? I didn't watch. I know the little twerp was confident

as if he really thought that he wouldn't fry because it would start a chain-reaction to the top. What a dumb kid.

Theoretically, all those above him who were involved should fry with him... but we know how that works ;)

[Just Me]

26. Oh yeah,...he was "smirking" all over the place!!!

Appeared and sounded just like another "smirk". Know what I mean?

It was just, plain weird that the guy seemed so damn confident and showed no remorse, whatsoever, for anything he did.

He was like a Bush-bot!!!

I wonder whether those "superiors" names will ever be released and published by our endearing press.

[MSgt213]

14. Anybody think this lone guy came up with this shit on his own and was able

to get away with for so long in a fucking prison? Let me tell ya something. I worked in one of the largest prison in the United States. You can get away with a lot of shit in a prison system that spreads itself out over several miles and over 30 separate buildings some isolated from each other. But here's the kicker. Somebody knows what the fuck your doing. Why? Because most prisoners have the simple ability to talk and if they can't talk they can't write. Guards get away with shit because their superiors let them get away with it by ignoring it.

There are some very simple and uncomplicated natural rules that you have to follow in order to maintain any prison any where in the fucking world and you don't have to be a prison expert to know you have to do these things. One is a head counts of your prisoners.

Now some might buy the argument that the old Sgt was an out of control loose cannon. But if you buy that argument explain to me how military intelligence, the CIA, the FBI and DIA had any clue when they walk in to prison in Iraq who to interrogate? The Bush administration knew exactly what was happening in that prison.

[Just Me]

22. Good grief *LOL*, I hope not!!!

Of course, MI, CIA, FBI, DIA, CIC and DoD all knew what the hell was going on. Hell, the CIC's counsel wrote the damned memo!!!!

Isn't stunning how easily Gonzales' memo is dismissed?

Stunning!!!

[QC]

16. Graner is a piece of shit, but he shouldn't be the fallguy here.

We all know that people much higher up--like Gonzales, Bush, etc.--authorized torture.

Let's not take the bait by focusing all our anger on Graner.

[mediaman007]

17. I guess they knew exactly who they were employing!

And I guess that Graner knew who was hiring him, if he kept the journal.

[TahitiNut]

34. It doesn't take much to harvest guys like Graner for jobs like this.

The guy's an authoritarian addict ... loves the power trip of being in uniform and having power over other people.

Once upon a time, police forces were getting pretty good at weeding these latent sociopaths out of the recruitment process. I'm pretty sure today's "volunteer" military is good at deploying these types "effectively." Weed out the "bleeding hearts" and the "barracks lawyers" - keep the sadists and reichbots.

Everything anyone ever needed to know about this was seen in the Stanford Jail Experiment and Stanley Milgram's studies. Graner's just a blunt instrument - a tool. He was used, all the way.

[bultpruf]

18. "I was just following orders"

Wasn't that the Nazi's Nuremberg defense? There was plenty of press around. If Graner objected to what he was being ordered to do, he could have told the story to an eager media. Then, he would have been a hero, instead of a bum -- which is what he is.

[TahitiNut]

19. In Nuremberg, the ones who gave the orders were also prosecuted.

Let's try not to forget that when drawing parallels.

The military is an authoritarian system. As such, the guilt is more than shared by the command staff and above. While it does not exonerate the subordinate, it calls for prosecution up to and including those wielding the most authority.

We can dismiss it as the "Nuremberg Defense" when the Bushoilini Regime is also imprisoned. Until then, dismissing it as such is merely licensing ever more atrocities by those in authority. There's no end to the number of sociopaths willing to carry out such policies. Until those not dirtying their own fingernails are prosecuted, we apologize corrupt leadership.

[bultpruf]

21. Absolutely!

It should be taken on up the chain as far as it can be...but NOBODY should get to use the old "just following orders, sir" defense. This guy apparently felt no sense of human decency, nor apparently did he believe that what he found so amusing would be considered vile, despicable behavior in a civilized society.

I was raised in the military, so I know all about the "never question authority" mindset. The UCMJ says: "Military members who fail to obey the lawful orders of their superiors risk serious consequences." The key word there is "lawful." An order which is unlawful does not need to be obeyed. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders if the order was illegal.

[TahitiNut]

25. Aye, but that's the rub.

At the same time the Regime has been claiming that such treatment (and indefinite detention without trial or any due process) of prisoners (see Guantanamo) is legal, they're prosecuting these people for doing it.

If the White House Counsel and Attorney General aren't able to determine that such treatment is illegal, how the hell is a grunt supposed to tell??? Just what is an "illegal order" under this regime??? Graner does NOT have a law degree. (Remember, refusing to obey an order can get you shot in a war zone. I'm a Vietnam vet. I have some experience.)

I agree that his behavior is detestable and reprehensible. It pales in comparison to the regime that condones even worse.

[bultpruf]

32. Uh, yeah...

Great point. If we get Gonzales, the prisoners/"detainees" are even more screwed. One thing you may not be considering is that the Bush administration and their buds don't think in terms of right or wrong. They only think in terms of what they want, right or wrong.

However, Granor didn't need to be a great legal mind to know that what he was doing was unethical and inhumane. If he couldn't figure that out on his own, all he had to do was ask himself if he'd want the same thing done to himself or his fellow soldiers, and he'd have an easy answer about whether or not he should be doing it to others.

[cascadiance]

43. As Randi Rhodes said on her show earlier this week...

The big difference is that Nuremberg trials *only* tried those in charge and it was done first before the prison guards, etc. were tried. It was done "top down", so we got the top level responsibility pinned down first, and then were able to tell who had more independent responsibility at lower levels.

With the way we're doing these trials "bottom up", there's no way to tell how much these soldiers were coerced in their behavior through orders given them, or if they were doing it on their own.

We should be reaching up the chain of command first and try to assess who's guilty at the top first (though that usually doesn't happen to the winning army of course). Until we assess top level responsibilities here, we really don't know if we're allowing these guys to "pass the buck" in terms of their direct responsibilities in the abuses, or if we're overdoing it in terms of making them the scapegoat for something that was more a systemic problem created by abuses at a higher level that aren't being addressed.

[lovuian]

24. A learning lesson Just because your ordered to do inhumane

things doesn't excuse you!!! and being a good soldier this is what happens you take the blame and superiors walk away safely!!!

[2Design]

29. they get prison if they refuse orders and they get prison if they follow

orders

those who took the subtle hints that just following orders is not a reason - refused to follow orders later - in fighting in abuse and other - but they also went to trial and prison

the only part I keep hearing on this - did someone order the picture taking - so it is still about the exposure of the crime and not rumsfeld's crime

[Hissyspit]

31. MSNBC Link: Graner Says Ordered To Abuse Prisoners

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6795956/

[Just Me]

44. Do they say WHO ordered him? NOT!!!

He does spew the FAUX news rhetoric though!!!