Driver's licenses spark privacy debate

[rainbow4321]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NATIONAL_ID_CARD?SITE=TXSAE&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


Privacy advocates warn that the new federal standards for driver's licenses will effectively create a national ID card, centralizing information that can be misused - by letting the government track the whereabouts of innocent people, for instance. Government officials say they're just making the cards more secure, and that the worries are overblown.

"There is a strong sense of protection of privacy by all of the administrators of DMV records, because we know the value of the information we've been entrusted with," said George Tatum, North Carolina's Department of Motor Vehicle commissioner. "We just want you to be who you say you are

States can opt out - refuse to make changes to their driver's licenses that will be required under the federal law - but then the licenses would be useless for any federal purpose, from getting benefits to boarding an airplane guarded by federal screeners.

The intelligence law aims to standardize the documents drivers present to get a license, the ways DMV workers verify that those documents are authentic, the information included on a license and the steps authorities take to ensure licenses can't be forged. The law also requires that licenses can be read by machines.

[SouthernDem2004]

1. As a Police Officer I am all for this....

A uniform DL would make it alot easier to id fakes. Also, some states have pretty cheesy DLs that are easy to alter. Not to mention it is hard to remember where the secruity measures are on every states DL.

I do not understand the privacy issue. I can run any DL in the US or Canada and get all of the driver's information and driver's history. I can also run what is know as a "Triple I" through the FBI's NCIC and get a complete criminal history. How will a national DL give me access to anymore information then I already have?

[Redstone]

3. That's my point exactly.

You, as a law officer, can already find out everything you need to know about me if you need to.

So your point about "why should there be more information available?" goes right to the heart of the matter.

If you, a police officer, believe that the additional information is not necessary (and I'd expect that most of your fellow officers believe this as well), then who is it who wants the additional information, and why?

That's what bothers me. I tell you what, if the driver's licenses get all these "features," the first thing I'll do with my new one is set it on top of a large magnet when I get it home. Then I'll whack it with a hammer a few times.

Redstone

[UL_Approved]

4. If this doesn't change what you can look up, why bother?

The issue of privacy comes from having everybody registered in a database somewhere to look them up. You say that you can look up anybody in the US AND in Canada from a driver's license. I would like some confirmation about that claim.

I have met many law enforcement offices, and they generally agree that this system will lead to abuse. I even got a lecture for about 20 minutes from an on duty officer in uniform about how our rights are being removed. This seems contrary to all that I've heard so far from police officers.

[SouthernDem2004]

6. Why bother?

Please read my first post for the answer.

Confirmation? You do not think Police can run out of State DLs? It would make it rather hard to determine if a license was valid if we could not. I am sure 99% of people on here can confirm this.

I know ALOT of Police Officers... I do not know of any that think this is a bad idea or it can lead to abuse. It will not give us access to any information that we do not already have access to.

[UL_Approved]

8. Hmmm, I wonder...

Where about in the country are you an officer? What type of organization?

About the confirmation, what sites or titles would you recommend for showing how the current information network can do? You have my curiosity now...

[SouthernDem2004]

9. I am...

I Patrol Officer for a city Police Department in the South as my name implies. Let me check and see if I can find a link to something about DLs. If you are curious about NCIC it is the National Crime Information Center. It is run by the FBI. We use it to access criminal history and to check for warrants. http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm

Let me look and see if I can find a break down of the DL system.

[SouthernDem2004]

14. Can not find...

any types of links to the DL system. If it has a specific name then I am not sure what it is...

For confirmation you can ask on the forums at Officer.com or any other Law Enforcement site.

[SlowDownFast]

26. there are exceptions...

<<<You do not think Police can run out of State DLs?>>>

Actually, there are a few states left that are not a part of the federal Dept of Transportation's 'interstate compact'. The 'interstate compact' laws are what links one states DMV to anothers. These few states (do your homework to find which) still issue drivers licenses through Secretary of States, and keep and derive all known driving records (of their state) in said institutions and only share with neighboring states, while unable to access most'interstate compact' states driving records and vice versa.

Of course, felonies show up in all states through the NCIC.

[Rush1184]

40. I think Vermont is one of those states...

I got a 109 mph speeding ticket there (don't ask), and they told me that the points were only in vermont.

[SouthernDem2004]

49. Correct in a a sense...

There are a few states left where I can not get the drivers history of violations. I can however check any DL for validity and get the drivers personal information. There are a handful of states that do not have the social but there are only a handful of those left.

Alot of states do not link their DMVs. I doubt my state does since we do not use a point system.

For DUI purposes if the state does not provide a driver's history we have to do a NCIC check. NCIC contains DUI charges and convictions.

I am curious as to what system does the DL checks. I am sure it is run by the Feds. I will ask our dispatch tonight when I go to work.

[AmerDem]

5. Well, apparently

This measure will allow many many others who AREN'T police officers to gain the same information that you are able to now. You have taken an oath to defend the law and in doing so the general public have faith in your ability to use this information in a fair an legal way. What happens when someone behind the scenes decides to use this information for their own gain?

[Redstone]

7. That's SouthernDem's point exactly.

We need to find out exactly who "needs" this additional information, since the police don't.

Redstone

[SouthernDem2004]

10. It is my understanding...

That there is no more additional information on the DL. Law Enforcement has been pushing for a Federal DL for a while. We just want one standard format.

[proudbluestater]

15. I just got my driver's license renewal form. Now they demand my SS #

This was never required in the past. I am not happy about it. It states you will not be able to get a renewal without disclosing your social security number.

[sunnystarr]

19. They require it in TN too and if you miss checking the little box it also

appears right on your drivers license, then the State sells this information and an identity thief has all they need to create a world of trouble for you.

When Social Security numbers were first issued in 1936 the people were assured that their number would only be used for that program and not for identification. There were many public concerns about privacy so it was included in the legislation. I remember my first SS card had a warning on it - "Not to be used for identification" (wording based on memory) and it was against the law to use the number for any other purpose. As an adult I remember a law suit against a library in Central NY because they required your SS # in order to get a library card. The library lost.

We have become less and less guardians of our privacy and the result was Congress repealing that provision and SS#'s no longer have the statement limiting the use of the number.

Of course this has made everyone open to identity theft but no one seems to care, certainly not our states.

[SouthernDem2004]

20. Alot of States already use SS#...

and no State sells the information.

[sunnystarr]

35. They used to sell the information and while the Supreme Court

upheld the law that prohibits it now there are many loopholes that still make it possible to legally give out that information. The newest way is swiping where the information on your license is available from the magnetic strip on new licenses and once swiped that infornation is d/l by the vendor.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa042300c.htm (background)

http://www.we-swipe.us/research.html

ChoicePoint (CP) is the biggest data warehouse or commercial supplier of personal data to federal agencies. The FBI, Department of Justice, and IRS all have multi-million dollar accounts with CP. CP has 10 billion records and contracts with 35 federal agencies to share data with them. CP collects data from public records and combines that with information from private detectives, the media, and credit reporting firms. The data is indexed by Social Security numbers and CP claims that if you have a credit card, CP has your in their database.

Notice that your SS# is used by ChoicePoint the neocon owned company responsible for the Election 2000 Florida felons list.


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,33611,00.html
The DPPA says that state governments may not "knowingly disclose" such private information, but there are many exceptions and loopholes. For instance, "any government agency" can obtain drivers license information. So may researchers, private investigators, insurance companies, or impound yards.

Marketers may obtain the data as long as states provide drivers "an opportunity, in a clear and conspicuous manner, to prohibit such uses."

If you want the info you can get it through sites like:
http://www.downloadglobe.com/ (where do you think they get their info)

[Book Lover]

43. Are you saying that no state DMV

sells their driver's license list? If so, that is not true - though I have only two personal anecdotes to back that up. Nor am I saying it was done under color of law, just that it *was* done.

[Heddi]

63. There was a big hoo-ha in South Carolina a few years ago

because the state WAS "selling" info to companies. I moved out of SC before any ruling was made, but ALOT---I mean ALOT of people were FURIOUS and of course the repukey asshole Atty General of the state whose name escapes me (I think it's Charlie Condon but I'm sure I'm wrong) was so non chalant about people's Name, DOB, SS#, address, etc, being sold to 3rd party companies for the sole purpose of marketing.

Assface.

I"m sure a google of SC Drivers License Sold or soemthing to that nature will provide all the info you need

[rainbow4321]

28. At one point some states DL used people's SS number for the DL #

For the life of me I cannot think of which state(s) but I vaguely remember someone in my family telling me that their DL number WAS their SS number.


edited: can't spell

[SouthernDem2004]

33. Mississippi is one such state...

They only changed it in recent years where you can pick a random number.

[CountAllVotes]

21. yes who needs this info exactly?

I was trying to get another credit card from my bank where I've had an acct. for over 20 years and they wanted a whole lot of info. like driver's license #'s.

I became disgusted and hung-up on the assholes. It's none of their goddamn business and they are btw very CLOSE to losing a VERY good customer!!

:kick:

[SouthernDem2004]

34. No idea why they need your DL, heck they already have your social.

[SouthernDem2004]

11. It is a crime to...

use NCIC for any purpose other then Law Enforcement. The FBI is extremely strict on its use. Any time a NCIC check is done we must provide the officer's name requesting the information and why. A log is kept of each check and once the information is no longer needed it must be shreaded and logged as destroyed. The FBI audits agencies randomly and often to make sure these guidelines are being followed. If a department is not following the guidelines they lose access to NCIC.

When people are involved there is always the potential for abuse. We do what we can to weed out the problem children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Do you know

if employers doing routine background checks for potential employees have access to NCIC?

[SouthernDem2004]

13. Negative. Only Law Enforcement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. The reason I asked

is I am a teacher and I recently met a guy who wants to start substitute teaching. The state requires a background check and he was busted last summer for a misdemeanor possession of marijuana. He is wondering if this will turn up in the background check and if it would prevent him from being hired. I am trying to find out but don't really know what to tell him.

[SouthernDem2004]

22. That is a good question...

I really do not know the answer to that, it would depend on your state. If a state government or local government requires a check it is very possible they will do a NCIC check. Your states version of the FBI will have the power to do it. They should have had him sign some sort of waiver. Will it show up on NCIC? Yes.

If he was arrested in the city or county he is trying to get a job in then he is definitely screwed. During background checks they always call local jurisdictions to see if they have been arrested. Arrest logs are open to the public....

What he should do... If its his only arrest history is go to a judge and try and get it expunged from his record. He needs to go to the court that convicted him and speak to a judge. Might be hard to do since it was so recent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Thanks for the info

and no, he was in another state way far away.

How long do you have to wait to get it expunged?

[SouthernDem2004]

31. I do not believe there is a hard rule on expunging.

Last summer does seem a little recent though. He needs to hire a attorney in the area he was convicted. He will know the judge and can speak to him on your friends behalf. If it was say 5 years ago he could take care of it himself but this recent I doubt it. If it is his first arrest the attorney could probably convince the judge to remove it from his record on the condition your friend does not get in any trouble over the next year.

DO NOT tell the judge he wants the conviction expunged so he can teach children. The judge may frown on that. I would not want a pot head teaching my children... Nothing personal...

[sunnystarr]

36. Better he be an ordinary alcoholic (nt)

[SouthernDem2004]

37. I did not know you had to be one or the other.

Odd, I do not smoke or drink.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Thanks I will let him know

I have always wondered this - are expungements really permanent? I mean, is there no way anyone can find out about the record? I wondered if maybe the FBI still had access to records. (As you can tell, I don't have a lot of experience with criminal behavior and court stuff)

One of my bosses used to be a co-worker. And while we worked together, she was arrested. They came to school to pick her up and were discrete about it, but a couple of us saw the whole thing. She was absent a week, then came back and told me she lucked out and was serving weekend time so she could still work. I didn't have the nerve to ask her what the crime was. That was 20 years ago. The rumor mill went wild but I never heard for sure what she was charged with. And I liked her, so I didn't feed on the gossip surrounding her arrest. In the meantime, she rose through the ranks and is now a top administrator. So she must have had her record expunged.

[SouthernDem2004]

44. The FBI does not have the records for misdemeanors.

Only the jurisdictions where the subject was arrested has the actual records. Expunging will get the information removed from NCIC. The judge will order the local jurisdiction to also remove the info but your friend will need to check and make sure they actually do it.

[DukeBlue]

39. Lexis Nexis

Has records available for a fee of course of every filed charge, every motion that goes before a judge. It varied by state of course. But Lexis has massive amounts of information available to the public.

I have a small business and use it and other services for background checks and credit checks on employees and suppliers. It is impressive. I could care less about old DWI or pot charges but finding out someone has been charged with theft more than once and never convicted is nice to know.

[Book Lover]

45. Tangential question

Why would you want to run a credit check on a potential employee? What business is it of yours how well or unwell a person runs their private finances (some or all of which may not be under their control)?

on edit: spelling

[DukeBlue]

50. Chemical Formulation

I handle federally tracked chemicals. Some are precursors to narcotics, toxic, etc.

As well as large accounts. I am not so big that I can keep people just for checks and balances.

I do not run credit checks on potential employees. I run them on potential customers to determine terms. Good business practice.

[Book Lover]

53. Thanks for the clarification

Obviously I misunderstood your post, and I certainly agree that it is sound practice.

[SlowDownFast]

27. from my understanding

there are certain agencies that get contracted to do background checks for employers wanting one. Criminal records are public information, whether misdemeanors (even driving records) or felonies. Do a google search and you will find thousands of 'people search' or 'background search' websites that will do the job for a fee.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Those who are applying for jobs

have to pay for the background check themselves. It's only $30 or $40 so I wouldn't think it's very extensive??

[DukeBlue]

41. You'd be amazed..

Lexis costs about $800 a month. You can pull every thing about a person or corporation.

Address, phone number, home ownership, military service, State DMV in some states, criminal and civil references, voting registration, party affiliation. Including indictments.

All in one place. Very powerful. Great for research as well.

[Rush1184]

48. And verry scary...

Ummm... shouldn't my party affiliation be private? I don't like the idea of my employers being able to look that one up...

[DukeBlue]

51. It should be

But it is public info.

How you actually vote is of course private. (in theory)

[SouthernDem2004]

57. Ouch

I am not a privacy nut but party affiliation is disturbing...

[DukeBlue]

59. I agree

In NC it as available. I don't know about other states.

[SouthernDem2004]

32. There is a difference between a private employer and government employer.

Yes, arrest histories are public record. When a private company does a check they have to contact each local agency individually. Normally they contact the cities around where the subject lives. They will take the form you filled out that list where you have lived in the past. They will then contact those local cities and check for an arrest history. They do not have access to NCIC.

[alarimer]

16. What about people who don't drive?

Why should you need a driver's license to board a plane?? there are other forms of ID. We live in fucking police state. That's what the fascists want.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. My 21 year old son does not drive

and he has a state ID. It looks just like a driver's license and he has never had any trouble when asked for ID.

My mother also does not drive and she uses her state ID.

I just hope they don't ask us to put ss# on these federal IDs.

[SouthernDem2004]

24. No one is going to require...

you to get a drivers license. According to the article posted they may stop accepting state DLs but no one is going to be required to have a DL.

[Rush1184]

46. There was a court case about that...

Technically, requireing ID to travel nationally is unconstitutional as it infringes on ones right to travel or somthing. Anyone else have any more info on this?

[SouthernDem2004]

52. Try this link:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/travel.htm

[Book Lover]

42. More than privacy, it's checking federal power

The federal gov't is grabbing authority not granted to it by the Constitution by requiring every state to conform its DL laws to a federal standard.

As for privacy, this issue is one of the canaries in the coal mine. People just don't like the smell of this law, but if the party in control of the federal gov't can push it through, their next steps will be easier. If, as you say, you can get DMV and criminal info when running a DL, then what's the point of this exercise? In my view, to see what the people will accept. DLs one day, internal passports the next (as an example; I have no insights into what Rove is planning next).

[SouthernDem2004]

55. We have been pushing for this long before Rove had any power...

Let me give you an example why:

I work in Mississippi and I often work the interstate. I stopped a guy with a Texas DL several months ago.. I am very familiar with a TX DL because I see them often. Well, TX DL's have a certain number of holographic seals on them. If you look at the DL at an angle in the light you will see them. Looking at the DL I could tell he was missing half of them. The DL came back valid but I hooked him up anyway for the traffic violation. I knew the DL was altered. I found his correct info in his wallet and vehicle. Turns out he was wanted out of TX for Agg. Assault and Robbery.

If his DL had been from say Alaska or some other state that I am unfamiliar with I would not have known their security measures and he would have gotten away.

There is a book put out that lists all the security measures per state but it would not be safe for me to be thumbing through a book during a stop.

[Book Lover]

60. My point about Rove was really rhetorical

My main point was that it is not a federal but state power to regulate DLs. An interstate compact to regularize DL creation would serve the same purpose and would not result in a federal gov't with yet more authority not granted to it by the federal constitution.

If the book with these security measures were made digital and put into a handheld that also acted as a portable "in-car" computer, would that help? You would be able to access it while you were standing right next to the vehicle.

[SouthernDem2004]

62. Negative...

It would still be a distraction. Its kind of an Officer safety issue. I do not use a computer to check a DL on a stop. I call it out on the radio and dispatch checks it. It might sound paranoid but I have had people try to murder me on several occasions and I have been to one Officers funeral so far in my career. A standardized DL is just a good idea all around.

[Book Lover]

64. Thanks for the clarification

I am not well informed about LE's day-to-day workings. I don't have a problem with a standard DL, but I don't want that standard coming from the feds, that's all.

[gaia_gardener]

54. Well, with a phone number and a name

I can get your address (criss-cross directory). With your name and address, I can access your credit report and get your SSN and all your credit information. So why should we worry about keeping SSNs private?

The point is - just because you can currently get this info doesn't mean it needs to be more easily accessed or accessed by people who have no business doing it.

I'm putting off getting my drivers' license because I think it is a violation of my privacy to have to give my thumbprints. With our current gov't, I don't trust them not to use that info to frame me for something. I'm always amazed when I can get on a plane.

[SouthernDem2004]

56. How?

How exactly can you get my DOB and SSN just by knowing my name and address?

A national standard for DLs is not going to give anyone access to information that they do not already have access to. It will not be any easier to access. All it is going to do is change the appearance of DLs so they all look the same. That is it...

[gaia_gardener]

61. I can order a credit report based only on your

name and address. I've done it before when I worked for a collections agent. For some reason (fraud?) the SSN and DOB we had was wrong, but I was still able to access their credit report. It flagged the wrong SSN and DOB and gave me the correct one. I tried it once without that info just to see what would happen and it pulled up the credit report fine.

It's amazing what you can find out about people with access to a few agencies and internet.

[amazona]

2. just use your passport for federal purposes then

I don't see the problem if your state opts out. You can still get your federal benefits and board airplanes with your passport number. The driver's license is something you carry every day. If you are robbed -- and we all get robbed at some point -- then you don't need to have everything out there on it needed for someone else to assume your identity. A passport is something that sits in the bank deposit box most of them except when you're traveling. There is still a risk of theft, identity theft, etc. but at least you're not exposed 24/7.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[sweetheart]

23. Probaby same as with the UK

The "identity card" will be used for collecting social payments like
medicaid, will be required for hospital admission, opening a bank
account (they say to prevent money laundering), and to hire an
attourney (as well they say to prevent money laundering).

Its all part of a shift towards "guilty until proven innocent" that is
the presumption of such an overbearing police state.

[SouthernDem2004]

25. You are incorrect...

This is merely an attempt to assign standards to the format and issuing of DLs. That is all....Nothing more....Nothing less.

This really is an old issue. I hope they finaly get around to doing it.

[GetTheRightVote]

47. Let us not forget about what happen in LA not long ago where hackers

tapped into the info of police departments and FBI departments, etc.
They ran their criminal activities for years until they were find out. I do not need my information just sitting there waiting for a similiar activity to happen to my Identity. A national ID card is definitely not a good ideal, so sorry for you Dem Police. It will only be the most obvious target for certain parties, who have done it in the past, to hack in and get us all. You may be a police officer but you are certainly not a programmer and do not realize the risk this type of card and related database will put us into.
Very bad ideal, very, very bad ideal just like our hacked and stolen election you are going to leave these kind of decisions in the hands of the technicals of the world, dumb, just simply dumb.

:kick:

[SouthernDem2004]

58. This thread is not about a national ID card.

It is about setting a standard for the appearance of driver's license.