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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:04 AM
Original message
NYT: 9 Servings of Fruit and Vegetables? (new guidelines criticized)
Nine Servings of Fruit and Vegetables?
By MARY DUENWALD

Published: January 18, 2005


The new dietary guidelines for Americans released last week are more detailed than ever, distinguishing, for example, between whole and processed grains and between trans fats and healthy vegetable oils.

They are also more demanding. They raise the daily goal for fruit and vegetable consumption to nine servings from five, for instance, and challenge Americans who want to control their weight to get as much as 60 to 90 minutes of exercise on most days....

***

Many doctors and nutritionists applaud the 2005 guidelines for their new detail. But they also criticize the lack of guidance....

***

(Some) experts say the guidelines should have described specific foods that Americans ought to avoid or cut back on.

Dr. David L. Katz, the director of Yale's Prevention Research Center and the author of "The Way to Eat," said these included "commercially fried fast foods, deli meats, full-fat cheeses, processed snack foods like cheese doodles and pork rinds and most commercial breakfast items" high in calories but low in nutritional content.

"The guidelines take the position that there's no such thing as a bad food," Dr. Katz said, "but that is a bow to the food industry, pure and simple."...


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/18/health/nutrition/18cons.html
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do they have suggestions to offset the
bloating and diarrhea that nine servings of F&V cause in many folks?

I'm more of a balanced eater myself: I eat some things that are healthy and I also eat some things that are not. It's not perfect. We all have to die someday, and it's my choice to die having enjoyed myself, instead of having spent my life denying myself pleasure.

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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. How true!
This sort of goes hand in hand with the "conservatism" that some are trying to push down our throats (no pun intended). Religious conservatists don't believe in having any sort of pleasure or fun and they want to make sure no one else has any pleasure or fun either.

Ironic that the Europeans (such as those dastardly French) can manage to eat wonderful meals which include many, many things, and drink wine and not get fat and unhealthy.

I believe more than anything that what kills us in the good ole' USofA is that we're the land of excess. This plays right into it. Now it's not just eat some fruits and vegetables - it's eat massive quantities of them. Excess, excess, excess.

I, too, believe moderation in everything. I also believe in moderation in reading these types of stories:)
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. We need to differentiate healthy fats, like in Salmon and Olive Oil
Spinach cooked by itself...not so hot. Spinach wilted with garlic, baby bella mushrooms and olive oil....MMMMM.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Do you know how small 1 serving is? 1/2 cup fresh fruit/veg or 1/4 cup
dried fruit - it is not that much. Eat a big salad and you probably could have 4 servings or more right there. Drink a big glass of orange juice and you probably have at least 2. It really is not that big of a deal.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. yeah right, it's not a big deal....
I don't eat many fruits or vegetables at all ... they taste BAD.

I couldn't even get 5 servings a day of fruits and veggies. No way I'll be getting 9, even on the occasional day.

I can't stand salad, except for cole slaw. I don't drink orange juice at all. Drinking a big glass of any kind of juice will just shoot my blood sugar straight up, then I'll crash.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. They really taste bad to you?
I actually love the taste of fruits and vegetables, but I'm lazy and eat way too much junk food. Right now I'm eating Italian bread with full-fat cheese and a can of Fresca.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. yes
also the texture ... i hate the fibery/chewy texture of cooked carrots, i don't like the slimy cooked onion ... i can eat onion if it's chopped up really small and cooked.

Don't care for raw onion, most kinds of lettuce, don't like raw tomato, cucumber, peppers (raw or cooked), cauliflower, can tolerate broccoli if just the flowers, can tolerate green beans if steamed and crispy (canned green beans are really awful). Can't stand peas, brussel sprouts. Learning to like some kinds of squash.

I am pretty much limited to cabbage when in cole slaw, raw carrots (or lightly stir fried), corn, small doses of green beans or broccoli.

The only fruits I care for are raw apples and bananas and pineapple, occasionally strawberries in small doses ... oh yeah, watermelon.

I used to not even try foods before I decided I didn't like them ... I'm somewhat better than that now, but there are still some things I just won't try.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. It sounds like you are doing a good job of trying things, though
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. I was told I'd live 10 years longer if I became a vegetarian...
but who wants to live 10 more years if all I can eat is vegetables? Ick.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. I don't know if it's true or not but a friend of mine claims that
she read that if people do EVERYTHING that the experts suggest including not smoking etc., they get too live an extra few weeks at most. Eat real food and drink good wine and have a damn cigar or a gaulois now and again -- doesn't seem to hurt the French. In fact, French women are the longest lived women in the world -- they don't look bad either!

To be serious, even though my business is food, I think it is stress that will kill you six ways to Sunday -- enjoy life!!
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. Here, Here!
Like most of us don't have enough to do already without worrying about cramming more raw foods down our throats and increasing our exercise time.

I eat only two meals a day, and one of them is a big, healthy salad with spinach and lots of veggies, but I can only choke so much down.

And the exercise? You must be kidding! 4 days a week tops, and I walk everywhere, weather permitting. For god's sake, what ever happened to enjoying life?
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Even M.D's wont consume the hand that feeds them, we need
D.U. doctors.I wonder how many medical people we have on D.U. ?
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dutchdoctor Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. The doctor is in..
is just my opinion, I know there are many different views on what constitutes healthy food:

-Eating more fruit and vegetables is always better, mainly because they contain lots of dietary fiber, and because the more you eat of them, the less you'll eat meat, sweets and other unhealthy things. Don't worry about the vitamins, vitamin deficiencies are very rare in western countries.
-Vegetables are better than fruits because many fruits contain lots of sugar. I guess you can consider wholemeal bread a veggie too...
-Many people here say that it is an unrealistic goal to eat nine "servings" a day. My reaction: How the F%^* should I know what a "serving" is?? Could you (Americans) grow a brain and start using the metric system already !!! Anyway 300 grams of veggies is pretty good and not that difficult to achieve.
-I think the biggest dietary problem in the US is the simple fact that people eat to many calories. I heard that about 40% of adult Americans are heavier than is healthy for them. Europeans are slightly less overweight but all the trends show that their getting heavier...fast!
-Main reason (IMHO): We eat to many "processed" foods that are high on sugar and fat but low on any real nutritional value. If eating more fruit and veggies solves this problem than it is a good way to lead a healthy life..
I guess most of these points are pretty obvious, but there you go
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. We are using the metric system! Reagan said so when he cut funding
Back in the mid-80s. He said that Americans had successfully switched over to the metric system so there was no need to fund the transition any further. So there! /sarcasm off (true story)
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #45
66. I remember that transition.
All that came of it is that some of the digital time/temperature clocks now show both Fahrenheit and Centigrade. Nothing else changed.
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dutchdoctor Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
69. Another great Reagan policy
So combining two of Reagan's great policies we can now tell kids that eating 300 grams of ketchup a day (half a bottle for those who stubbornly refuse to go metric) is a healthy way to get your required daily intake of vegetables!
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. Do they have any idea what percentage of Americans
manage to even eat the 5 fruits and veggies per day that was recommended prior to this?

My own impression is, not all that many. It seems to me this new recommendation is incredibly unrealistic.

Would welcome other comments.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, I manage it but I'm vegetarian... (eom)
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. It Depends On What A "Serving" Is
I think a really big salad and some orange juice could possible be 9 servings they way they figure it...I think they usually figure 1/2 cup as a serving size? Even my LITTLE salads are 3 cups and I do get lots of different stuff in them. So that's six servings right there. I'm in the habit of eating either salad, steamed veggies or veggie soup every day but then again I live in So CA and we are lucky to have really nice fresh produce all year round.

Of course they could just as well figure that french fries and ketchup are veggies as well?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
68. same here
vegan- I'll sometimes eat five servings in one meal, especially if I have juice with it :)
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AliciaKeyedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I think the new recommendations end up being a week for me
Who can buy that much fruit and not have it go bad? I'd be food shopping a couple days a week just for fruit.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. One serving appears to be 1/2 cup

So nine servings is 1.5 cups of fruits and veggies per meal on a three meal diet, or less if you use them as snacks. That is a piece of fruit and a serving of veggies per meal. Horrors!

Doesn't sound so horrible to me. Then again as a vegetarian this is not a big deal. I had a smoothie for breakfast - at least two cups of fruit right there.

This dietary advice is routinely opposed by the meat and dairy producers (got milk) and while it has been well established for decades as sound medical advice, it has not put into the stupid food pyramid for political reasons.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Humans do not need to drink milk from cows. Cow milk is biologically
for baby cows, just like human milk is for baby humans. You can, but there are compelling reasons why one might not want to consume cow milk. For me, it's allergies. I used to be a dairy-a-holic until I learned that my seasonal allergies, sinus and skin allergies were greatly worsened by drinking milk. I haven't had cow's milk in about 6 years and I'm far better off for it.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
71. Thanks. I'm pretty much the same way.
My parents didn't get that milk "tasted bad" until they saw that I didn't particularly care for ice cream either. Sure, it was better than nothing, and I liked the sugar, but really, I could take it or leave it. I didn't like cheeses, either. There were plenty of emotional struggles over "drink your milk".

Later, as my verbal skills grew and I had a better understanding of biological processes, I was able to explain that milk products gave me horrible phlegm, and too much (a full serving of dairy) gave me the runs, and cause my face to break out in tiny bumps around the "beard" area of the face.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Nine servings impossible? Nonsense. 4 cups + a small glass of oj
and you've got 9 servings. Some people get that much noshing at a cocktail party.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
59. what the heck?

I wonder what I said that was so abrasive that a reply got deleted?

We humans get upset about the stupidest things.
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Mmmm, I love smoothies for breakfast!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Well, here's the problem
To anyone without specialist knowledge, "a piece of fruit and a serving of veggies per meal" for three meals would be 6 servings. But you're telling us that either one serving, or a piece of fruit, is actually two servings. How are wwe meant to know that "serving" has a meaning other than the everyday one?
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. If you are watching the glycemic index, it's better to eat more veggies
than fruits. Fruits are healthy but they do have natural sugar while veggies help your body maintain a steady insulin level.

I could eat fruit constantly but I try to keep in mind that I should do more veggies.
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durablend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Never mind that--who can afford it?!?
Oh right, anyone other than the elite doesn't exist so they don't care about the price.

:eyes:
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. Actually, that's how I shop for groceries and I find it much cheaper.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. A lot America's poor can't get to supermarkets
They don't own cars and the supermarket chains don't locate in inner cities or rural areas. This leaves a lot of people with access only to convenience stores, which sell almost nothing but junk food.

A surprising number of Americans do their regular shopping at convenience stores, and their diets are almost entirely made up of processed food. As a result they are obese but undernourished, at high risk for diabetes, hypertension, and cardiovascular disease.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. And the supermarkets in poor neighborhoods jack up their prices
especially on nutritious food. Just look at the price of produce in a poor neighborhood compared to that in a better-off one, and you'll see what I mean.

Carbs are all most poor people can afford. No wonder they're fat. IT'S THE POVERTY, IDIOT!!
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. self-delete
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 06:25 PM by StopThePendulum
duplicate
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
72. I know what you mean from the standpoint of price only...
You can get a small, but filling burger for about the same price as a pound of apples in some places, and some apples would need to be shared with another person so they wouldn't go to waste.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. I eat nothing but fruit and vegetables, being vegetarian
People can do things if the want to. The idea that society or an industry forces you to eat poorly or not to exercise is bull shit.

You have 24 hours in every day. You decide what to do with them. If you word and commute 10 hours, sleep 8 hours you have 6 hours to do what you choose. You can sit in front of the boob tube or exercise. Or better still put a TV in you exercise room and do both.

When you go to the grocery store, you pass a whole department of fresh fruit and vegetables. You can buy them and prepare them or go to the frozen food section and pick a pizza or TV dinner.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Surprise!!!
"The guidelines take the position that there's no such thing as a bad food," Dr. Katz said, "but that is a bow to the food industry, pure and simple."...

Uh, like maybe the Veggie PACs spent more than the Bakery industry this time around?

How long before we're being told that rodent hair and rat feces are actually benficial "additives" to our food?
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d.l.Green Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Veggie PAC's? skim milk? come on...
First off, there are no "veggie PAC's" besides those representing corporations producing genetically altered frankenfood. Healthy farming doesn't fit into the corporate mold of pure profit. That any portion of the food shape of the moment has fruits and vegetables in it at all is quite impressive when you consider they're up against mega-lobbyists (together with government-financed marketing agencies) for the cattle, dairy, chicken, egg and beef industries.

As for skim milk, it has the highest percentage of protein than the others. Of course everyone's blinded(thanks to the Atkin's diet) by the fact that there's no such thing as having too much protein, any excess taking with it phosphorous(needed to absorb calcium)- when the opposite of too little protein is almost impossible on any diet. Oh, and don't forget urea that only comes from animal products, that gathers around and freezes up joints.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own health instead of taking the advice from a sham governmental agency or even health nuts like me. The info is out there, all it takes is a little effort.




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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Actually, I've found that what affects my joints more than anything
is sugar.

I finally figured out the cause and effect a few months ago.
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. It's easy not to realize how much sugar we consume too, especially if you
drink soft drinks. There's high fructose corn syrup in nearly everything.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
67. Don't consume corn syrup.
Better to consume sugar.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Pull in your claws, Homie...
Sheesh, a little SENSITIVE, are we???

By "Veggie", I meant the Produce and Fruit growers/producers/wholesalers, NOT "Vegans" or other "meat haters".

My point is that the "food pyramid" changes on the basis of which producer's industy council is bribing which congress-critter with sway over the FDA. This time, it's the Produce industry beating out the Grain industry.

Got a problem with THAT?
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. You don't have to listen to them !
Industry does not put food in your mouth you do! You can research what is healthy for yourself and make decisions for yourself.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. We agree on that.
I think a custom approach is better than "one size fits a few" in anything.

The "Food Pyramid" never made a whole lot of sense to me anyway. Too much bread in the old one.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. This will show my age, but the reason bread was in everything was
because the bread was fortified with vitamins and minerals. They took whole wheat and bleached it and got rid of the good stuff and then put some back in. It was a way to get Americans to get a better does of vitamins and minerals and the food chart was made up by the food industry. Almost everything the government says about food comes from some food industry be it dairy or beef etc.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. "Builds Strong Bodies 12 Ways!"
We must be from the same era....

"What does 'enriched' mean"
"It means they took all the good stuff out, then put it back in!"
"What's that smell?"
"That's yeast working. It's ALIVE!"
"ALIVE??? YECH!!!"
"Oh, I forgot, you only eat DEAD things, right?"
(dialog from a cartoon I saw once, I can't remember where)
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Produce industry beating out grain industry? Not really.
"An 1,800-calorie diet should include a cup and a half of fruit (this includes fruit juice), two cups of vegetables, three and a half cups of grain (half of which should be whole grains), five ounces of meat, and two or three cups of milk."

I read a total of 3 1/2 cups of fruits and veggies as compared to 3 1/2 cups of grain. Sounds about equal to me.

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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. But it used to be much less Produce.
Now it's more. and the story I heard last week said it's now almost FIVE cups of fruits and veggies, combined with only 3 SLICES of Whole Wheat bread...

But that was a MSM story, not anything "official"...
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. I agree with you. I am 58 with no blood pressure problems or heart rate
Edited on Tue Jan-18-05 11:49 AM by Mountainman
problems.

I don't eat meat, but I do eat some unhealthy things like French fries and cheese pizza but mostly I only eat fruit and vegetables. I have to work at eating fresh fruit and vegetables and whole grains. I eat apples and bananas and grape fruit and lettuce, carrots, celery, tomatoes, potatoes etc and mostly fresh. I have oat meal for breakfast and eat whole wheat bread. It isn't hard to do.

I live in the mountains so I take hikes up and down the hills. I have horses to take care of and other animals so that keeps me moving and I have lots of projects to do on our land every weekend.

I use to live in the city and eat fast food and spend the evenings on the couch watching TV. I decided to live a better life so wife and I sold our house, quit our jobs and moved to the mountains. We both have new jobs and all and all are petty healthy and happy.

I know that things might have not worked out for us but we are the kind of people willing to take risks to get to a better life style. Also we don't believe we are victims of society or industry. It is all in the selections you make for yourself.

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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
65. One of the most sensible posts in this thread, Mountainman
In other words, you eat decently in ways that provide both nourishment and pleasure, stay fit through natural activity, and have chosen a less stressful way of living over the alternating cycles of ennui and tension in mainstream city life. More power to you...and less power to those silly government charts.

Quality of life ultimately leads to quantity of life.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. Sa-wish! Nuthin but net. Welcome to DU!
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. You may be onto something there.
I recall that the last food pyramid was heavy on grains exactly because the bakery industry lobbied that it be so.

Now, I think whole grains are great - but even I eat a whole grain bread only at one meal. It's not all that easy, and certainly isn't cheap, to incorporate whole grains into your diet.
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. It sounds like a great start.
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Mizmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. Do jujyfruits count? eom
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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
26. And unless you can parse a food label - which most people cannot do...
The guidelines are bad because most people cannot parse a food label? Are you serious?????

How hard can it be?
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. If you can't pronounce it, you probably don't need to eat it.
We're just so used to convenience foods it's absurd. I buy nearly everthing in whole form anyway. No boxed mixed stuff for me. I'm consistently amazed at how little people really understand about nutrition.
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spunky Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. It should just be about a balanced healthy diet, this info is misleading
For example, at the end of the actual USDA guidelines ( http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/ ) they list sources of various vitamins and minerals.

While I'm no expert on all of these vitamins, I do know a thing or two about iron absorbtion and the amount of iron in the food isn't whats important its the TYPE of iron.

For example, they list 1/2 cup of spinache as supplying 3.2mg of iron. In reality, only a small fraction of that can be absorbed by the body. That amount is increase or decreased by the foods you eat it with.

Eat it with meat or citrus fruits or nuts and you can increase absorbtion. Eat it with corn or tea or other foods and you will decrease this amount. Yet they list the amounts as if all sources of food provide equal absorption. I'm sure many of the other vitamins and minerals listed have similar absorbtion differences. Why don't they list that information? You can eat spinache till the cows come home and still become anemic.
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Ms_Mary Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Dairy also interferes with the absorbtion of iron.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Eating tons of fruit and vegetables in the winter feels unnatural to me
In the summer I have a garden and eat lots of fresh greens and fruits.

But in the winter, I feel almost repelled by the idea of a salad. My Scottish ancestors certainly never saw anything green after October or so. I eat grains, beans, root vegetables, whole wheat bread, and broccoli or squash a couple times a week, but that's it.

I know my great grandfather never ate a vegetable other than a potato in his entire life and lived to be quite old.

Frankly, I think eating mountains of fresh fruits and vegetables is not necessary for good health. Sounds like blasphemy, but there you are.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Interesting what you said about your Great grandfather --
My great grandmother and my grand parents also lived to be very, very old -- and it was a healthy vibrant old age (my great grandmother still walked her mountains at 102!) -- and I know that they sure didn't have access, much less eat mountains of fruits and veggies, especially not in the winter. They had some home canned goods but I doubt seriously if after the canning process much nutrition was left in them. From what I could tell they primarily subsisted on eggs, milk, cream, beans, cornbread, fatback and meat (especially ham and sausage), canned or pickled veggies and maybe some apples -- their veggies even in the summer tended to be cooked to death and I don't think they even knew what citrus fruit was until the 40s. They did work hard and walked a lot though -- and I don't think they worried one second about what they ate.

Longevity studies have yet to reveal any particular diet that is associated with long life.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. I think it's obvious that being really fat or undernourished is unhealthy
but the emphasis on fruits and vegetables seems overblown.

It's only in the last 50 years most people had year-round access to these things.

I suspect lobbyists -- florida orange lobbyists... could that be what this is all about?

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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. I read the medical and nutrition literature all the time and
I am increasingly jaded -- almost everything seems to have it's lobby. I mean that a gadzillion studies correlating this or that food with lower cancer, cvd, diabetes or whatever -- BUT none of them actually show up in longevity studies. Somehow we all manage to die of something anyway. Most of the studies use what I call statistical sleight of hand -- -they use relative stats instead of absolute numbers. For instance you might read that eating or taking some drug cuts the cancer risk a whopping 50% and you think, well I've got to go out and get some of that. But if you look at the actual studies like I do you find that what they're really talking about is a lot less impressive. For instance out of 500000 people, those that eat kumquats get 50 % less lip cancer, which sounds like a lot -- but in reality perhaps only 2 people in that group would get lip cancer anyway and that number drops to 1 among those that eat the kumquats. That's a 50% drop for sure, but the chance of getting lip cancer was really very slim anyway so the absolute risk reduction was not reduced at all really -- I mean 99.99% won't get lip cancer whether they eat kumquats or not. Or worse yet -- the stats tell you that by eating x,y, or z will lower a risk factor -- which generally means a number like cholesterol -- which itself might not be that related to anything anyway. I am beginning to believe that the stress of worrying about what you're eating is likely to be more harmful than what you eat. I think if people stay away from obvious junk food -- eat food that looks like it has had some connection with the natural world -- they'll do alright. Also if you're a woman who was born in May you seem to get an extra 3 or so years while early life exposure to inflammatory disease seem cut years off. People who drink red wine and caffeinated coffee appear MORE likely to live longer! see:

Wine, coffee may add years to seniors' lives


By JOHN FAUBER
jfauber@journalsentinel.com


Posted: April 28, 2004


San Francisco - If you live for fine wine and rich coffee, you may live a long time.

Looking at the dietary habits of some southern California seniors, researchers reported Wednesday that those who drank a glass or more of wine a day and at least a cup of caffeinated coffee were more likely to reach their 90s than those who did not imbibe.....
http://www.jsonline.com/alive/news/apr04/225736.asp

God only knows all the confounding variables -- but who cares: eat, drink and be merry for no matter what you do, you are going to die!

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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Same in my family, Emillereid!
My grands and great-grands lived well into their 90s, very healthy and active, and I think that ACTIVITY is the key. As southerners, my family battered and fried anything that didn't move -- started every single day with bacon and eggs, fat, fat, fat, fat, fat in everything. Several of the men dipped snuff, no one got cancer. No one was obese. I myself am 44, my fav foods are milk and eggs, I love my fats, but I am not fat, and I have no bp or heart problems. I think that HEREDITY and ACTIVITY LEVEL determine a hell of alot more than diet, from what I've seen in my family, at least. I really think that every single individual is different, and what works for one person's diet does not necessarily translate to another person. Guidelines are ok, but I, for one, refuse to be guilt-tripped my entire life. I'll eat my veggies and fruits, but then yes, I will have dessert, thank you very much!:)

By the way, you, or someone upthread, had a point about Europeans. My hubby and his family are European, they eat and drink lustily and well, but they also walk every damn place. No weight problems in his family at all.

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JaneDoughnut Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
43. Eat more!!
I don't think I get 9 servings of all the food groups COMBINED in one day. That's an awful lot of food. But it is encouraging to see meat leave the centerpiece of the American diet.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. I think the stress of having to conform to all of these ridiculous
suggestions that come out every other week far outweighs the benefits of actually taking the advice seriously.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
51. wow. that's a whole lot of ketchup for grade schoolers. n/t
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. $10 for a bag of grapes, once again the rich can afford to eat well.
Got a shock buying a (not large) bag of grapes for 10 bucks.

So let me get this straight. With three meals a day and two snacks, I'm supposed to eat 9 fruits/vegetables. Riiiigggghhht.

I'm sure the people who came up with this Pollyanna diet make more than enough to stock up on fresh produce as well as soy milk, free range chicken, etc.

:grr:

I need to be rich. That's all there is to it.
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
61. 9 servings of fruits and vegetables ... and one serving ...
... of BEANO per day.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. I'll trade flatulence for a healthy colon any day (nt)
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
63. I can easily eat 9 serving of fruits and vegetables a day.
I can't easily afford it. But I raid the marked down produce racks and buy whatever I can.
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gauguin57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
64. If cow flatulence contributes to global warming, just imagine ...
... what the world will be like if everyone eats 9 servings of fruits and vegetables each day? Whew! Git out yer bikinis in February, folks!
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