NYT: No Break in Storm over Harvard Pres's Words ("intellectual tsunami")

[DeepModem Mom]

No Break in the Storm Over Harvard President's Words
By SAM DILLON and SARA RIMER

Published: January 19, 2005


Members of a Harvard faculty committee that has examined the recruiting of professors who are women sent a protest letter yesterday to Lawrence H. Summers, the university's president, saying his recent statements about innate differences between the sexes would only make it harder to attract top candidates.

The committee told Mr. Summers that his remarks did not "serve our institution well."

"Indeed," the letter said, "they serve to reinforce an institutional culture at Harvard that erects numerous barriers to improving the representation of women on the faculty, and to impede our current efforts to recruit top women scholars. They also send at best mixed signals to our high-achieving women students in Harvard College and in the graduate and professional schools."...

***

One university dean called the aftermath an "intellectual tsunami," and some Harvard alumnae said they would suspend donations to the university.

Perhaps the most outraged were prominent female professors at Harvard....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/education/19harvard.html

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. For a guy presiding over the world's largest collection of SAT "geniuses"

he sure is a stupid twit. Only a dumb fuck stupid ass would say something like that, ever, for any reason, in public.

[Briar]

7. Did he buy the post? n/t

[DrWeird]

2. They're quickly becoming an expensive De Vrie Insititute.

First they graduated Bush, now this.

[Robert Oak]

5. don't forget those economic advisors "outsourcing is good for America"

Mankiw and they teach total crud, "free trade mantra".

Harvard or where to go to learn "corporate speak".

[Canuckistanian]

36. Hey! I'm a DeVry graduate!

Four years ago, I couldn't even SPELL "technician". Now I are one.

[Anakin Skywalker]

66. Big Deal! Harvard Grad here!

I is proud 2 b Harvard alum. U guyz don't even got no football team!

[renegade000]

60. heh talk about it

i'm a senior at a rather prestigous magnet school.

for early action applicants...Harvard accepted William Kristol's son (one of my fellow classmen)...but deferred one of my friends who had a 1600 SAT, <4.0 GPA, did performance ballet, violin, piano, did It's Academic with me, Shakespeare Troupe, and Latin Honor Society (geez i mean what am i forgetting).

lets just say...Kristol Jr. didn't do all those things

[BikeWriter]

3. Cool, his hide should be nailed to the shit house door. n/t

[Red State Blues]

4. Truth shall set you free.

First, let me say that I am a male and my skills tend more towards the humanities, liberal arts and communication. My sister is a biologist.

I would never advocate "steering" any child's educational opportunities based on sex.

That said, men and women are different, sorry to clue people in on that. I don't pretend to know exactly what those differences are, or what the limits are to the "nature/nurture" debate.

But this idea that female and male minds are identical, even in the face of vast evidence of early developmental differences as well as chemical and hormonal differences, is frankly, crap.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong, if so, I suggest that we start revoking tenure of Sociologists who have the unmitigated gall to suggest that women have longer average lifespans than men. Why, it's an outrage that someone might suggest an hypothesis based upon observed behavior. Some people.

[UL_Approved]

6. Have you heard what he said?

Here is a link to a news story that describes what was said:

http://www.local6.com/education/4090001/detail.html

His words are not about saying that men and women are different, they are to say that women are inferior. This is the major problem with the statement. He also has other items to his name that involve sexism, which are shown in this statement of the article:

"Summers already faced criticism because the number of senior job offers to women has dropped each year of his three-year presidency."

[Red State Blues]

8. There is no tape or released transcript

so I haven't heard what he said. Very few have.

from the link provided:

quote:
"It's possible I made some reference to innate differences," he said. He said people "would prefer to believe" that the differences in performance between the sexes are due to social factors, "but these are things that need to be studied."

He also cited as an example one of his daughters, who as a child was given two trucks in an effort at gender-neutral upbringing. Yet he said she named them "daddy truck" and "baby truck," as if they were dolls.
end quote.

So, he's said that the issue needs study. Man, the nerve of this guy!

The comments about his daughters are certainly not scientific and don't represent a sufficient sample but was he wrong to say it if it was true?

BTW: You'll probably like this link better:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/01/19/summerss_tortured_logic?mode=PF

Look, there are studies that show that women are damaged by the (lack of) nurture component when it comes to Science and Math and I fully believe that there's a lot of truth there. There are also studies that show that "science and math nurturing" don't fully explain what's going on and I like to listen to both sides.

The best argument that I've ever heard on this topic (supporting what I believe to be your position) is that we don't live in a gender neutral enough society for any study focusing on the mathematical and science "nature" of teenagers to be valid. I concede this argument but solipsism gets us nowhere.

From my link:(quote)

Summers told the Globe he was discussing hypotheses based on the scholarly work assembled for the conference, not expressing his own views. He also said more research needs to be done on the issues.

Conference organizers said Summers was asked to be provocative, and that he was invited as a top economist, not as a Harvard official.

Summers's defenders at his speech said that after he mentioned innate differences, he immediately added, "I'd like to be proven wrong" on innate differences.
end quote.

Man, what a dumb, close-minded SOB! Let's fire him yesterday! How dare he be provocative when asked to be?

I think it's clear that all human behaviorial study should stop immediately. We already KNOW that there are absolutely no differences between sexes or races in general terms, so anybody who was to find anything otherwise would obviously be wrong.

Where did Summers say that women are inferior? At BEST(worst), all I can see is that Summers hypothesised that in a GENERAL sense, there MIGHT be some innate differences between males and females when it comes to Science and Math. This says NOTHING about any particular man or woman in an INDIVIDUAL sense. It says nothing about inherent superiority/inferiority of men or women viewed in a wholistic sense either.

Maybe I'm a Neanderthal or maybe I'm too far beyond the problem to see the problem. In my world view, even if we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that men are better at math or women are better communicators (in GENERAL) then it would still say nothing to me about the inherent inferiority or superiority of either. I also believe that it is terribly wrong and misguided to to apply any information from a general study to an individual.

"His words are not about saying that men and women are different, they are to say that women are inferior. This is the major problem with the statement."

Actually, as I have shown, he did not say that women are inferior (I don't care how many reporters say that he did either - I would be interested in a transcript though), so I don't see the major problem.

"Summers already faced criticism because the number of senior job offers to women has dropped each year of his three-year presidency."

OK, here's a real issue. Unfortunately, it doesn't really give us enough to go on. Who were the applicants? What better qualified women were passed over for less qualified males? I'm NOT saying that he didn't do it, show me that he did and I'll be right there with you calling for his immediate ouster!

It's his responsibility to hire the best, be they male, female, transexual, or ???.

[xchrom]

9. It's his responsibility to hire the best, be they male, female, transexual

you're sellin and i'm not buyin...

he could have been provocative and thought provoking -- he was not.

he was soliciting and received the appropriate knee jerk reaction to a jerk-off statement.

harvard has been undergoing a conservative transformation over the recent years -- this is just another example of letting liberal intellectuals know they are under pressure to tow the line.

there are no real differences between the sexes when it comes to intellectual pursuits -- there is a culturally/socially biased world that we raise our children in.
his presentation of anecdotal evidence of his own childrens lives point this out -- i.e. not all girl children would have named those trucks ''daddy truck'' and ''baby truck'' -- and he knows that.
he presents it as fire cracker waiting for someone to ignite.

[qazplm]

16. thats a pretty absolute statement dont you think?

there are no real differences between the sexes when it comes to intellectual pursuits?

How can you say that with such certainty?

What's a "real difference"?

I mean this could just as easily mean that men are inferior in some intellectual pursuits as women.

I would think that given the many differences in brain geography, chemistry and biology between men and women that exact similiarity would actually be somewhat surprising.

[wildeyed]

57. But because men control the research process

it always will be about how women are inferior. Anything that women excel at will be denigrated somehow. It is a no-win situation for women. It makes more sense to assess talents individually anyway.

[Red State Blues]

31. I'm not really sure

what your problem with my argument is.

"you're sellin and i'm not buyin..."

Do you not agree that he should hire the best or do you doubt my sincerity? or something else?

"he could have been provocative and thought provoking -- he was not."

So, we're NOT having this exchange?

What would you have said in his place?

[wildeyed]

56. And the 'daddy truck' and 'baby truck'

probably had to do with relative size. My friend's 2 yr. old SON came over and named two toy trucks 'mommy' and 'daddy'. Mommy was small, daddy was big. I thought, ah ha, sexism, but then I looked at my friend and her husband. She is small, he is big. Simple. He was comparing the relative size of the trucks based on his experience with the world.

My four year old daughter is absolutely obsessed with building, always has been. And she is extremely bright. I would hate for her to hear the bs that her brain is somehow not suited to that type of intellectual pursuit. Does a disservice to her and to the world that will someday benefit from her gifts in some small way.

[UL_Approved]

10. He must have a history of this

It would be interesting to see a transcript of what was said. I would like to see what "information" was presented.

Don't forget, only 60 years ago, people in NAZI Germany made bogus studies that claimed that Jews were simply not human. In our own country, we were given studies that showed minorities, particularly blacks, were not at the same level of mental development as white people.

My worry is that the supposed "evidence" was nothing more than pseudo-scientific garbage put out to support an intended end result. You are right that no quote was taken, but the fact that he refused to release the statement is at least grounds that he offended many people. I would like to see the transcripts as well.

[xchrom]

11. agreed re: bogus studies regarding differences.

it's the first thing conservatives reach for it seems to me.

what's never reported is the deluge of evidence that refutes the differences between us -- no one is much intereseted in finding out that we are all pretty much the same -- excluding neuroses, of course:crazy: .

i don't think this guy was even presenting studied evidence -- just setting off a bomb.

he's gotten what he wanted.
the media will ignore everybody who presents the mountain range of evidence to show him for the idiot he is.

[NorthernSpy]

13. He's also said that Africa was "underpolluted"...

... and that it would make sense to ship toxic waste there (this was the remark that Harpers reprinted). But that little gem didn't stop the Harvard Corporation from naming him president.

Oh, and apparently he's been nagging everyone about "anti-Semitism" -- ie, advocacy of financial disinvestment from Israel. :eyes:

So, yeah, Summers has got a history.

[wicket]

17. Wow, he sounds like a real winner!

:puke:

[hatrack]

23. Hell, that little gem didn't keep him from becoming Treasury Secretary

.

[Briar]

21. You don't need to go to Nazi Germany for bogus scientific racism

not with the all-American Thomas Dixon and D.W.Griffith in the business, and the KKK still active.

[Red State Blues]

45. History?

I'm not sure why it should be assumed that he has a history of such statements if that's what you mean. BTW: I am looking at Summers statements (at the conference) and the public reation to them only, I don't know anything about the guy and certainly won't defend any comments about Africa being "underpolluted".

I agree, I'd like to see a transcript and have a better idea of what else was presented at the conference. A claim was made in the article that his statements in the afternoon directly contradicted information presented that morning at the conference. If that is so then that very information would be helpful to this discussion.

"Don't forget, only 60 years ago, people in NAZI Germany made bogus studies that claimed that Jews were simply not human. In our own country, we were given studies that showed minorities, particularly blacks, were not at the same level of mental development as white people."

I hope you can see from my posts that this is certainly not where I'm coming from on this issue. The fact that people might misuse these arguments is certainly a concern; however, I think when you try to maintain a fiction as truth, you create a breeding ground for dangerous (false) ideas.

"but the fact that he refused to release the statement is at least grounds that he offended many people."

Actually, it's not but I would like to have more info as well.

[wabeewoman]

62. He does seem to have a 'history'

Indeed, Summers has designed an interesting experiment of his own. Will Harvard lose out on talented female scholars because of its current leaders? If the number of women granted tenure continues to decline, as it has during each of the three years the university has been led by Summers, I think we can safely conclude that the answer here is very likely not due to an innate problem with the institution or all womankind, but rather related to its current leadership. The decline in female faculty at Harvard under Summers is not simply a function of an inability to find Nobel-winning female scientists, a category that I will grant holds extremely few members. According to a 2004 article in the Harvard Crimson, female junior faculty in the humanities are also less common under Summers than they used to be:

Thirty-five percent of the junior Faculty in the humanities are women, down from almost 50 percent in the 1990s.

While non-tenured humanties professors are increasingly male, it has been female professors in the sciences who have rapidly increased at the non-tenured level:

Despite the humanities decline, women comprise 42 percent of junior Faculty in the social sciences and 17 percent of junior Faculty in the natural sciences, which is two times the natural science percentage from five years ago, according to the letter.

Nor are there fewer junior professors in the humanities because they are becoming tenured professors at Harvard. In the 2000-01 academic year, according to a letter signed by 26 Harvard professors last June and sent to Summers urging him to address the decline in female faculty, 37 percent of tenure offers were to female scholars. That number had shrunk to just 11 percent by 2002-03. (Summers' appointment began in July '01.)

http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2005/01/index.html#005263

[jayfish]

18. Spoken Like A True...

Conservative. Would you care to cite any of this "vast evidence" you claim exists. You have it so wrong you can't even tell the difference between physical and mental attributes.

"I suggest that we start revoking tenure of Sociologists who have the unmitigated gall to suggest that women have longer average lifespans than men"

Jay

[Red State Blues]

25. Certainly

the best course of action will be for you to lable me a "freeper" and just kick me off the board rather than deal with anything I have to say.

I don't have the scientific studies on hand but I thought it was pretty well accepted that on average girls start talking earlier than boys. Also that boys have a higher percentage of mental retardation than girls.

"You have it so wrong you can't even tell the difference between physical and mental attributes."

Why should we just stop at mental attributes? Do you believe that the brain is not connected to the body? Is it logical to you that with all the obvious physical differences that there would be absolutely no differences in the mind whatsoever?

[jayfish]

26. First Off...

I don't have the power to kick you off the board. Even If I did, I prefer giving a person enough rope to hang themselves through discussion. Secondly, when a person says something that sounds conservative, on a liberal board, I am going to call them on it. I stop at mental attributes because thats what (IMO) this person was referring to. I also don't really know if it's accepted that "on average girls start talking earlier than boys. Also that boys have a higher percentage of mental retardation than girls". On the point about talking, my anecdotal evidence is just the opposite. I just ask you to provide some documentation. Most people on this board provide documentation when stating "facts". I'm sure there are differences in the minds of men and women. I just don't think they translate, in any meaningful way, to the subject matter.

Jay

[Red State Blues]

33. I'm on dial up and

have many, many other things I should be doing right now but I will try to find something for you.

As far as my being conservative, I don't think I am, and I have approached this as primarily a free speech issue.

You've admitted that there are differences in the minds of men and women, I can deal with that.

Look, I'm a man and my skills lie in areas not typically considered masculine. Would I like it if I was forced to be a scientist? Of course not. My Sister, the Scientist, had to deal with all of the problems that the people in this thread are so concerned about (and in a very red state - no less). Do I think that was fair? Do I think she's in the wrong profession? Of course not! I also think she could have gone even further were it not for some of the ingrained prejudices of society and some of her teachers.

What I can't accept is that there is no place in society where someone can even raise the questions presented by Summers without people calling him a sexist and calling for his dismissal. Of course, I wouldn't appreciate it if Summers had given this little talk at my Sister's middle school.

I live in a terribly conservative area and I spend a great deal of time trying to enlighten the people around me. One thing I have to do quite frequently is explain that the "looney left" is more of a boogeyman invented by the right than something that has much existence in reality. People (not you) taking the position that there is absolutely no difference between the male and female brain make my life a lot more difficult.

[Red State Blues]

40. Research

OK, I just haven't had the time nor does it appear that I'm going to in the near future to research the scientific literature and find stuff that I'm sure is going to stand up to scrutiny that people who are predisposed to call it bogus are going to subject it to.

However, I did call a friend of mine for a bit of help, please see post #35.

There really is no shortage of literature showing that rates of mental retardation are higher for boys than girls, I don't see why my google search should be any better than yours, so I'm going to leave it at that.

Also, I don't expect this to stand up to scientific scrutiny but it should be good for discussion (and maybe it will show that I'm not talking completely out of my ass, then again...):

from: http://www.zerotothree.org/brainwonders/FAQ-body.html

Are there any differences in the development of boys' and girls' brains?

Yes, but they are subtle, and a product of both nature and nurture.

Neuroscientists have known for many years that the brains of men and women are not identical. Men's brains tend to be more lateralized--that is, the two hemispheres operate more independently during specific mental tasks like speaking or navigating around one's environment. For the same kinds of tasks, females tend to use both their cerebral hemispheres more equally. Another difference is size: males of all ages tend to have slightly larger brains, on average, than females, even after correcting for differences in body size.

Electrical measurements reveal differences in boys' and girls' brain function from the moment of birth. By three months of age, boys' and girls' brains respond differently to the sound of human speech. Because they appear so early in life, such differences are presumably a product of sex-related genes or hormones. We do know that testosterone levels rise in male fetuses as early as seven weeks of gestation, and that testosterone affects the growth and survival of neurons in many parts of the brain. Female sex hormones may also play a role in shaping brain development, but their function is currently not well understood.

Sex differences in the brain are reflected in the somewhat different developmental timetables of girls and boys. By most measures of sensory and cognitive development, girls are slightly more advanced: vision, hearing, memory, smell, and touch are all more acute in female than male infants. Girl babies also tend to be somewhat more socially-attuned--responding more readily to human voices or faces, or crying more vigorously in response to another infant's cry--and they generally lead boys in the emergence of fine motor and language skills.

Boys eventually catch up in many of these areas. By age three, they tend to out-perform girls in one cognitive area: visual-spatial integration, which is involved in navigation, assembling jigsaw puzzles, and certain types of hand-eye coordination. Males of all ages tend to perform better than females on tasks like mental rotation (imagining how a particular object would look if it were turned ninety degrees) while females of all ages tend to perform better than males at certain verbal tasks and at identifying emotional expression in another person's face. (It is important to emphasize that these findings describe only the average differences between boys and girls. In fact, the range of abilities within either gender is much greater than the difference between the "average girl" and the "average boy." In other words, there are plenty of boys with excellent verbal skills, and girls with excellent visual-spatial ability. While it can be helpful for parents and teachers to understand the different tendencies of the two sexes, we should not expect all children to conform to these norms.)

Genes and hormones set the ball rolling, but they do not fully account for sex differences in children's brains. Experience also plays a fundamental role. Consider, for example, the "typical" boy, with his more advanced spatial skills; he may well prefer activities like climbing or pushing trucks around--all of which further hone his visual-spatial skills. The "typical" girl, by contrast, may gravitate more toward games with dolls and siblings, which further reinforce her verbal and social skills. It is not hard to see how initial strengths are magnified--thanks to the remarkable plasticity of young children's brains--into significant differences, even before boys and girls begin preschool.

But this remarkable plasticity also provides parents and other caregivers with a wonderful opportunity to compensate for the different tendencies of boys and girls. For example, it is known that greater verbal interaction can improve young children's language skills. So the "typical boy" may especially benefit from a caregiver who engages him in lots of conversation and word play. On the other hand, the "typical girl" may benefit more from a caregiver who engages her in a jigsaw puzzle or building a block tower--activities that encourage her visual-spatial integration. The point is not to discourage children from sex-typical play (since pushing trucks or playing with dolls are great activities for any young child), but to supplement those activities with experiences that encourage the development of many competences.

[jayfish]

63. Nice Work...

in all of your supporting posts. I would agree with UL that the differences appear to be social in nature. What's interesting is that it appears, to me, that our efforts toward gender equality are having a positive effect where education is concerned. I do have one problem in what you posted though.

"There really is no shortage of literature showing that rates of mental retardation are higher for boys than girls, I don't see why my google search should be any better than yours, so I'm going to leave it at that."

It's not really up to me to prove you correct. It may be up to me to post my own information in contradiction to your own, but I'm not responsible for checking your assertions of fact. In case I didn't say so earlier, welcome to DU. :hi:

Jay

[Red State Blues]

64. Thanks for the welcome.

Well on that one issue I was leaving it up to you to try to prove me wrong. It's frustrating for me because the implicit question is "Where did you get your information from?" People have a tendency to dismiss everything you say if they can find any flaw in your argument and I don't like re-researching something I already know (from College, several classes actually) and taking the danger that one of these sources I will present is fatally flawed. Getting back to my implicit argument, whatever sources I present won't actually be where I got my information from.

I've also had problems in the past on other message boards with people demanding that you back up even the most mundane statements.

Anyway, the above isn't meant as any attack on you, it's probably more of a cry for advice. I don't see how some of the people around here do it. I really wasn't planning to spend all of my internet time yesterday (and then some) on one board, much less one thread, but yet to properly reply to UL below (and your agreement with him) I can see this easily going in to tomorrow.

Thanks again for the welcome and for the civil discussion.

Mental Retardation Male Female Ratio Argument Support:

from: http://www.aboutourkids.org/aboutour/articles/about_mr.html
"Who is likely to have it?

The prevalence of mental retardation in adults has been estimated at approximately 1%, or roughly 1 in 100. However, as many as 3% of school-age children are diagnosed as mentally retarded. The difference between child and adult rates may be due to the fact that some children may improve their adaptive abilities so that the diagnosis no longer applies. Mental retardation is more common in males, with a male-to-female ratio of 1.5:1. Mental retardation occurs in upper and lower socioeconomic classes, except that certain etiological factors (e.g., lead poisoning and premature births) are linked to lower socioeconomic class. Individuals with mental retardation exist in all cultures, educational, racial and ethnic groups."

from: http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic605.htm

Frequency:

In the US: The frequency of MR of all degrees ranges from 1.6-3% of the population.
Internationally: A study with excellent ascertainment conducted in Aberdeen, Scotland, yielded a prevalence of 1 in 300 for severe MR and 1 in 77 for mild MR. Among those with severe MR were more boys than girls (male-to-female ratio 1.2:1), and among those with IQ >70, in the mild range of deficiency, boys exceeded girls by a ratio of 2.2:1.

Although prevalence rates vary from country to country, the variance in prevalence may be attributed to ascertainment bias, the standardization methods employed from study to study, and a generalized upward drift in IQ scores over time. Even so, the greatest variance in statistics of prevalence is most likely to fall within the category of mild MR, a group for which the ascertainment bias is large.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rockerdem]

27. I agree. We're all the same

The differences are minute.

[Red State Blues]

28. Thank you for so carefully reading my post.

"For example, men are taller than women. Or are they? Isn't it MORE ACCURATE by far to say that most men are taller than most women, which automatically implies that SOME women are taller than SOME men?"

"The huge, enormous, terrible problem comes in in precisely where you shot off your big mouth, frankly, which is making blanket statements that end up circumscribing the opportunities and indeed whole LIVES of people who happen to be of the other sex."

"I find your whole post enormously, if somewhat subtly, offensive. Your willingness to discuss differences in such broad terms without qualifiers concerns me."

What is the "huge, enormous, terrible problem" when I have so carefully said, "I would never advocate "steering" any child's educational opportunities based on sex."

What sort of qualifiers would you like? I thought my very careful use of GENERAL, and INDIVIDUAL and in all caps, no less, pretty well "qualified" what I was saying.

What part of this sentence don't you understand?: "I also believe that it is terribly wrong and misguided to to apply any information from a general study to an individual."

"As long as the world is filled with sexism, there will always be people who are willing if not eager to note those differences and make laws and social policies that end up restricting rights and benefits of half the human race. You and your words feed right into that pathology, IMO. And I wouldn't call living longer a "behavior" -- as if it were something under one's conscious control -- either."

As you and others have pointed out, "living longer" was a terrible example from a scientific behavioral standpoint and I would glady take my spanking were it not for your statement: "And that's precisely the kind of statement that in a world still dominated by men can be used against women as a class to reduce their pension and similar benefits and, in fact, routinely is by insurance comapnies, Social Security, etc."

So we come to the crux of your argument, "It is wrong for ME to speak the truth (as I believe it to be), if there is ANY possibility that ANY idiot may then misuse that truth to further their small minded goals."

[Red State Blues]

30. weird?

While it seemed like Eloriel was arguing with someone other than me I wonder why her post is gone.

(no sarcasm here - I don't see what rules she violated.)

[imenja]

48. I'm confused too

It's very difficult to figure out what causes a post to be deleted on this website. Seemingly innocuous posts are deleted while terribly offensive and profane statements proliferate.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. I believe there are more differences -- especially when you're

thinking in terms of practical applications, like what field to study -- within each gender than between the genders.

Are there basic biological differences? Sure. Are they destiny? Rarely. How important is socialization -- "nurture", vs. biology -- "nature"?

I think it's pretty sure that if girls and women are taught to believe that they cannot excel in math and science that will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Every child should be encouraged to excel in whatever interests he/she develops. Everything should be possible, with hard work and study. Limiting people is just silly, and counter-productive.

[Red State Blues]

29. I absolutely and positively

agree with everything here. I don't see where it contradicts what I've said though.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. The truth shall set YOU free

My name is Deborah Amato. I am an aerospace engineer at Goddard Space Flight Center. I work on small space instruments doing mechanical, thermal, and systems engineering. My tasks include mechanical design, hardware fabrication, test planning, and instrument integration. I spend a considerable amount of time interfacing with other engineers and scientists making sure the items for which I'm responsible match what they are doing and meet their expectations.

My activities vary a great deal from day to day. A typical day might include using three-dimensional design software on my computer to develop and analyze telescope hardware. I might also meet with people who build my designs to discuss any concerns or design changes. Lately I have spent a lot of time doing environmental testing. I write test plans and make arrangements for tests such as thermal vacuum, vibration, and acoustics. I also spend many days working in a clean room assembling instrument hardware and doing optical alignment. I have been able to apply math and science, especially physics, to my daily work. The most exciting thing about my job at NASA is being able to have something I built or worked on fly in space. I also enjoy collaborating with other engineers and scientists to reach a common goal. In some cases building, testing, and launching an instrument may require the efforts a few hundred people. Another advantage of my job is I have been able to learn about astronomy and solar physics by working closely with scientists who study these things.

I went to college at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and graduated in 1994 with a bachelor's degree in astronautical engineering. I am currently going to graduate school part time for a master's degree in aerospace engineering. In school I did well in math and science. Math was my favorite subject. I became interested in the space program in junior high school. I had a personal goal of working for NASA and here I am! I never felt pressured not to go into a math and science based career. In fact, my parents and teachers all encouraged me to pursue my interests and achieve all that I could. I did at times feel intimidated by being only one of a few women in certain classes. More men than women were in my engineering program and I work with many more men than women. I think if you can demonstrate your abilities, you will gain people's respect whether you are a man or a woman.

http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/people/bios/women/da.html

Hi Everyone! My name is Tahani R. Amer and I am an Aerospace engineer at the NASA Langley Research Center. I work in the Aerodynamic Measurement Branch, in the area of developing instruments and sensors that measure the parameters needed to design new airplanes.

I started my college education by going to medical school in Cairo, Egypt; but I changed my major to engineering before even starting school due to getting married at age 17 and moving to the United States. I obtained a two-year associate degree in Science and at the same time I had two lovely children. I went back to school to finish my mechanical engineering degree. In 1992, I received my B.S. I then decided to obtain a masters degree in engineering by going to school part time while working and raising my family. It was very difficult. Therefore, I quit working and went to school full time. I obtained my M.S. and I had my third child. I am still taking courses, as a part-time student, to purse a doctorate degree in engineering.

I started working at NASA-Langley in 1992 during my senior year at college. I worked on my senior project in the Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) area. By working on this project, I gained valuable experience and I fulfilled my dream to work with scientists and researchers in solving real life problems. It was a real privilege to work with state-of-the-art technology and with researchers who love their work. In 1994, while I was a graduate student, I started working again at NASA Langley in a wind tunnel on an experiment for my master's thesis. It was a valuable experience from both a theoretical and practical point of view. I experienced the excitement of working with large CFD computer codes. I also did such things as climbing up the ceiling of wind tunnel to install a velocity probe. It was great!!!

http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/people/bios/women/tra.html

My NASA title is "Aerospace Technologist," and my degrees are in Aeronautical Engineering, but I would characterize what I do as "Aeronautical Research Engineer", so take your pick! My specialty is understanding the effects of integrating the propulsion system with the aircraft. I do this by testing airplane models in wind tunnels and simulating the jet engine exhaust with high pressure air. Until recently, most of my work was on military fighter and attack airplanes in the "transonic" speed range, which means near the speed of sound (the speed of sound is about 761 miles per hour at sea level). Now, I'm also testing future supersonic passenger airliners at take-off and landing speeds (around 180 miles per hour).

Part of what makes the job of a research engineer so interesting is that it has many phases which require different skills - planning a project, conceptual design of the test and wind tunnel model, testing the model, reporting of the results, and planning follow-up work. At any given time, I'm probably doing some of each of those things on several different projects. I really enjoy the variety that this type of work offers.

I've always been interested in airplanes, probably because my father was a flight instructor in World War II and a private pilot afterward. I actually started college intending to get a degree in astronomy, but I discovered that meant working all night, so I switched to aeronautical engineering. The cosmic joke is that the electricity requirements for a large transonic wind tunnel mean working all night as well! I always loved all sorts of science, but I thought of math as "just a tool". My best subject was always English, and I think that it helped me a lot, because good communication, written and verbal, is so important no matter what your job is. Also, being good at English left me the time I needed to work harder on the math.

None of the career guidance tests I took in high school said that I should be either an astronomer or an engineer, but I ignored them and did what I wanted to do. However, it wasn't until late high school when I attended an "Engineer's Night" program that the local engineering societies hosted that I discovered there were so many different types of engineering careers.

http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/people/bios/women/lsb.html

BONNIE J. DUNBAR (PH.D.)
ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR UNIVERSITY RESEARCH & AFFAIRS
JOHNSON SPACE CENTER

PERSONAL DATA: Born March 3, 1949, in Sunnyside, Washington.

EDUCATION: Graduated from Sunnyside High School, Sunnyside, Washington, in 1967; received bachelor of science and master of science degrees in ceramic engineering from the University of Washington in 1971 and 1975, respectively; and a doctorate in Mechanical/Biomedical Engineering from the University of Houston, 1983.

ORGANIZATIONS: Member of the American Ceramic Society (ACS), the National Institute of Ceramic Engineers (NICE), Keramos Honorary, the Society of Biomedical Engineering, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Tau Beta Pi, Materials Research Society (MRS); Board of Directors, Arnold Air Society and Angel Flight, International Academy of Astronautics (IAF), Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA), Society of Women Engineers (SWE), Association of Space Explorers (ASE).

SPECIAL HONORS: American Ceramics Society James I. Mueller Award, Cocoa Beach, Florida. (2000). Inducted into the Women in Technology International (WITI) Hall of Fame in 2000, one of five women in the world so honored. Selected as one of the top 20 women in technology in Houston, Texas (2000). NASA Space Flight Medals (1985, 1990, 1992, 1995 and 1998). Superior Accomplishment Award (1997). Member, National Science Foundation (NSF) Engineering Advisory Board, 1993 - present. NASA Exceptional Achievement Medal(1996). NASA Outstanding Leadership Award (1993). Fellow of American Ceramic Society (1993). Design News Engineering Achievement Award (1993). IEEE Judith Resnik Award (1993). Society of Women Engineers Resnik Challenger Medal (1993). Boeing Corporation Pathfinder Award (1992). AAES National Engineering Award (1992). NASA Exceptional Service Award (1991). University of Houston Distinguished Engineering Alumna (1991). M.R.S. President’s Award (1990). ACS Schwaltzwalder P.A.C.E. Award (1990). University of Washington Engineering Alumni Achievement (1989). NASA Exceptional Service Medal (1988). ACS Life Membership (1986). General Jimmy Doolittle Fellow of the Aerospace Education Foundation (1986). Evergreen Safety Council Public Service in Space Award (1986). American Ceramic Society (ACS) Greaves-Walker Award (1985). Rockwell International Engineer of the Year in 1978. Graduated Cum Laude from the University of Washington in 1975.

EXPERIENCE: Following graduation in 1971, Dr. Dunbar worked for Boeing Computer Services for two years as a systems analyst. From 1973 to 1975, she conducted research for her master’s thesis in the field of mechanisms and kinetics of ionic diffusion in sodium beta-alumina. In 1975, she was invited to participate in research at Harwell Laboratories in Oxford, England, as a visiting scientist. Her work there involved the wetting behavior of liquids on solid substrates. Following her work in England, she accepted a senior research engineer position with Rockwell International Space Division in Downey, California. Her responsibilities there included developing equipment and processes for the manufacture of the Space Shuttle thermal protection system in Palmdale, California. She also represented Rockwell International as a member of the Dr. Kraft Ehricke evaluation committee on prospective space industrialization concepts. Dr. Dunbar completed her doctorate at the University of Houston in Houston, Texas. Her multi-disciplinary dissertation (materials science and physiology) involved evaluating the effects of simulated space flight on bone strength and fracture toughness. These results were correlated to alterations in hormonal and metabolic activity. Dr. Dunbar has served as an adjunct assistant professor in Mechanical Engineering at the University of Houston.

Dr. Dunbar is a private pilot with over 200 hours in single engine land aircraft, has logged more than 700 hours flying time in T-38 jets as co-pilot, and has over 100 hours as co-pilot in a Cessna Citation Jet.

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/dunbar.html

ELLEN OCHOA (PH.D)
DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FLIGHT CREW OPERATIONS
JOHNSON SPACE CENTER

PERSONAL DATA: Born May 10, 1958 in Los Angeles, California, but considers La Mesa, California, to be her hometown. Married to Coe Fulmer Miles of Molalla, Oregon. They have two children. She is a classical flutist and private pilot, and also enjoys volleyball and bicycling. Her mother, Rosanne Ochoa, resides in La Mesa. His mother, Georgia Zak, is deceased. His stepfather, Louis Zak, resides in Waldport, Oregon.

EDUCATION: Graduated from Grossmont High School, La Mesa, California, in 1975; received a bachelor of science degree in physics from San Diego State University in 1980, a master of science degree and doctorate in electrical engineering from Stanford University in 1981 and 1985, respectively.

ORGANIZATIONS: Member of the Optical Society of America (OSA), the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), Phi Beta Kappa and Sigma Xi honor societies.

SPECIAL HONORS: NASA awards include the Exceptional Service Medal (1997), Outstanding Leadership Medal (1995), Space Flight Medals (2002, 1999, 1994, 1993), and two Space Act Tech Brief Awards (1992). Recipient of numerous other awards, including the Women in Aerospace Outstanding Achievement Award, The Hispanic Engineer Albert Baez Award for Outstanding Technical Contribution to Humanity, the Hispanic Heritage Leadership Award, and San Diego State University Alumna of the Year.

EXPERIENCE: As a doctoral student at Stanford, and later as a researcher at Sandia National Laboratories and NASA Ames Research Center, Dr. Ochoa investigated optical systems for performing information processing. She is a co-inventor on three patents for an optical inspection system, an optical object recognition method, and a method for noise removal in images. As Chief of the Intelligent Systems Technology Branch at Ames, she supervised 35 engineers and scientists in the research and development of computational systems for aerospace missions. Dr. Ochoa has presented numerous papers at technical conferences and in scientific journals.

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/ochoa.html

Marjorie Lee Browne was born to Mary Taylor Lee and Lawrence Johnson Lee, in Memphis, Tennessee, on September 9, 1914. Marjorie was encouraged to study math by her father and step-mother (her mother died when she was two).

Marjorie went to LeMoyne High School (a private school) after attending public school in Memphis. Then she went on to graduate cum laude from Howard University in 1935.

She briefly taught at Gilbert Academy in New Orleans. She earned her M.S. in mathematics from the University of Michigan in 1939, then joined the Wiley College faculty in Marshall, Texas, and started working on her doctorate in Michigan during summers. She became a teaching fellow in 1947 at the University of Michigan. In 1949, Marjorie earned her doctorate in mathematics. She was one of the first two Black women to earn a doctorate in mathematics.

Doctor Browne went to North Carolina College (now North Carolina Central University) where she taught mathematics after graduating from Michigan University. She soon became the chair of the Mathematics department in 1951; she resigned as department chair in 1970. She stayed at NCCU until she retired in 1979.

In the years of 1952-1953, Marjorie won a Ford Foundation fellowship to study combinatorial topology at Cambridge University and travled throughout western Europe. Dr. Browne was a National Science Foundation Faculty Fellow studying computing and numerical anlysis at the University of California at Los Angeles. When she studied differential topology at Columbia University in 1965-66, she won a similar fellowship.

Four years before Marjorie's retirement, in 1975, Dr. Browne was the first recipient of the W.W. Rankin Memorial Award for Excellence in Mathematics Education, given by the North Carolina Council of Teachers of Mathematics. "She pioneered in the Mathematics Section of the North Carolina Teachers Association, helping to pave the way for integrated organizations," as the award states.

In the last years of her life, Marjorie Lee Browne used her own money to help gifted math students pursue their education. Some students came to her with less than adequate preparations and she helped them pursue study of mathematics and complete their Ph.D. degrees. Unfortunately, on October 19, 1979, Dr. Marjorie Lee Browne died of a heart attack at the age of 65.

http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/brown.htm

12. Bonita Saunders, The Application of Numerical Grid Generation to Problems in Computational Fluid Dynamics, Council for African American Researchers in the Mathematical Sciences, Contemporary Mathematics Series 275, American Mathematical Society, 2001.

11. Bonita Saunders and Qiming Wang, From 2D to 3D: Numerical Grid Generation and the Visualization of Complex Surfaces, in Numerical Grid Generation in Computational Field Simulations (B.K. Soni et al., eds.), ISGG, Whistler, British Columbia, Canada, September 2000.

10. Bonita Saunders and Qiming Wang, Using Numerical Grid Generation to Facilitate 3D Visualization of Complicated Mathematical Functions, NISTIR 6413, National Institute of Standards and Technology, November 1999.

9. Daniel W. Lozier, Bruce R. Miller and Bonita V. Saunders, Design of a Digital Mathematical Library for Science, Technology and Education, Proceedings of the IEEE Advances in Digital Libraries Conference, Baltimore, Maryland, May 1999.

8. Qiming Wang and Bonita Saunders, Interactive 3D Visualization of Mathematical Functions Using VRML, NISTIR 6289, National Institute of Standards and Technology, February 1999.

7. Bonita V. Saunders, A Boundary Fitted Grid Generation System for Interface Tracking, in Numerical Grid Generation in Computational Field Simulations, Mississippi State University (1996).

6. Bonita V. Saunders, A Boundary Conforming Grid Generation System for Interface Tracking, Computers and Mathmematics with Applications, 29 (1995).

5. Bonita V. Saunders, An Algebraic Grid Generation System for Interface Tracking, Numerical Grid Generation in Computational Fluid Dynamics and Related Fields, (1994).

4. B.T. Murray, G.B. McFadden, S.R. Coriell, and A.A. Wheeler, Bonita V. Saunders, Gravitational Modulation of Thermosolutal Convection During Directional Solidification, Journal of Crystal Growth 129 (1993).

3. Bonita V. Saunders, Boundary Fitted Grid Generation Using Tensor Product B-splines, Numerical Methods for Fluid Dynamics, Oxford University Press (1993).

2. B.T. Murray, G.B. McFadden, S.R. Coriell, and A.A. Wheeler, Bonita V. Saunders, The Effect of Gravity Modulation on Thermosolutal Convection in an Infinite Layer of Fluid, Physical Fluids A 4 (1992), 117.

1. with R.F. Boisvert and Bonita V. Saunders, Portable Vectorized Software for Bessel Function Evaluation, ACM Transactions on Mathematical Software 18 (1992).

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/PEEPS/saunders_bonitav.html

My Life as a Mathematician, by Evelyn Boyd Granville
This article originally appeared in SAGE: A Scholarly Journal on Black Women, Vol 6, No. 2 (Fall 1989), p44-46. It is copyrighted by Sage Women's Educational Press, Inc., and is reproduced with their permission and the permission of Professor Evelyn Granville.

Fortunately for me as I was growing up, I never heard the theory that females aren't equipped mentally to succeed in mathematics, and my generation did not hear terms such as "permanent underclass," "disadvantaged" and "underprivileged." Our parents and teachers preached over and over again that education is the vehicle to a productive life, and through diligent study and application we could succeed at whatever we attempted to do. As a child growing up in the thirties in Washington, D.C., I was aware that segregation placed many limitations on Negroes, (We were not referred to as Blacks in those days.) However, daily one came in contact with Negroes who had made a place for themselves in society; we heard about and read about individuals whose achievements were contributing to the good of all people. These individuals, men and women, served as our role models; we looked up to them and we set out goals to be like them. We accepted education as the means to rise above the limitations that a prejudiced society endeavored to place upon us.

I was born in Washington, D.C. on May 1, 1924, the second child and second daughter born to William and Julia Boyd. Over the years my father held a variety of jobs--janitor at large apartment complexes, chauffeur, and messenger with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Even in the midst of the Depression that devastated this country in the late twenties and early thirties, I was not aware of our family ever being without the necessities of life. When we were young my mother stayed at home to care for her two daughters. Later, after my mother and father separated, my mother found employment at the United States Bureau of Engraving and Printing as a currency and stamp examiner and worked there until she retired. Even though the District of Columbia was a segregated city, life for me in Washington was not unpleasant. There were many recreational facilities in the areas that we were free to use. The libraries and museums in the city were open to all and provided me many hours of enjoyment and learning.

I loved school. The "colored" school system of Washington was in no way an inferior school system. The system attracted outstanding administrators and teachers; teachers at all levels were well-trained and highly dedicated to their profession. I cannot think of one teacher I had in elementary school, junior high school, or high school who did not demand excellence. My favorite subject was mathematics, and as far back as I can recall, I set my sights on becoming a mathematics teacher. I was the salutatorian of my junior high school graduating class and one of five valedictorians when I graduated from Dunbar High School. This high school had graduated many outstanding Black leaders and had gained a national reputation for the quality of its educational program. Dunbar had the tradition of encouraging students to attend ivy league colleges in the north. My home room teacher, also one of my math teachers, encouraged me to apply to two schools in Massachusetts, Smith College in Northampton and Mt. Holyoke in South Hadley. Even thought the fees at each school ere very high, I submitted applications to both in the hope of getting a scholarship, I was accepted by both colleges, but neither offered any financial assistance for the freshman year. My mother's sister, who was determined that I attend a northern college, offered to pay half my fees for the first year. A scholarship from Phi Delta Kappa, a national sorority of Black teachers, provided additional financial aid. I looked forward to college with great expectation and in the fall of 1941 I entered Smith College.

Smith, with an enrollment of approximately two thousand students, is the largest private college for women in this country. Although the students who enroll in this institution come from the finest public and private secondary schools, at no time did I feel that I could not compete with them. My schooling in the public schools of Washington, D.C. ranked with the best. After completing the required courses in languages and the humanities, I concentrated my studies in mathematics, theoretical physics and astronomy. I was fascinated by the study of astronomy and at one point I toyed with the idea of switching my major to this subject. If I had known then that in the not too distant future the United States would launch its space program, and astronomers would be in great demand in the planning of space missions, I might have become an astronomer instead of a mathematician. Smith was very generous in providing financial aid to me after my freshman year. Summer work as a mathematician at the National Bureau of Standards in Washington provided additional funds for school. I was elected to Phi Beta Kappa and to associate membership in Sigma Xi in my senior year and graduated summa cum laude from Smith in 1945 with honors in mathematics. A scholarship from the Smith Student Aid Society enabled me to start graduate study in the fall.

I was accepted at two graduate schools, the University of Michigan and Yale University. I chose Yale because the university granted me a scholarship to supplement the financial aid I received from Smith College. During subsequent years at Yale I was twice awarded a Julius Rosenwald Fellowship and for my final year of study I was granted an Atomic Energy Commission Predoctoral Fellowship. The fellowships enabled me to continue my study for the Ph.D. degree without interruption. Graduate study was demanding, but I enjoyed studying under the mathematics scholars on the Yale faculty. Dr. Einar Hille, a distinguished mathematician in the field of functional analysis, served as my research advisor. In my doctoral dissertation I discussed properties of Laguerre series in the complex domain. I was awarded the Ph.D. degree in mathematics in 1949. Many years later I learned that Dr. Marjorie Lee Browne, who received the Ph.D. degree in mathematics in 1949 from the University of Michigan, and I were the first two Black women in the United States to receive doctorates in mathematics.

Following the receipt of the doctorate I spent a year as a research assistant at the New York University Institute for Mathematics and part-time instructor in the mathematics department of the university. Because I found teaching so fulfilling I decided to look for a full-time teaching position for the following year. I accepted an appointment as Associate Professor of Mathematics at Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee. The contrast between New York City, a large cosmopolitan city in the north, and Nashville, a much smaller and segregated city in the South , was quite marked. Nonetheless, I adjusted well and enjoyed my two-year stay on the campus. The department attracted several very capable majors, including two women who later went on to receive doctorate degrees in mathematics. I taught Dr. Vivienne Malone Mayes, who received her doctorate from the University of Texas at Austin, and Dr. Etta Zuber Falconer, who received the Ph.D. degree in mathematics from Emory University.

In July 1952 I returned to Washington, D.C. to accept a position as mathematician at the National Bureau of Standards (NBS). The work entailed consulting with ordinance engineers and scientists on the mathematical analysis of problems related to the development of missile fuzes. The division I joined at NBS later became an agency in the Department of the Army and was renamed the Diamond Ordnance Fuze Laboratories (DOFL). While working at DOFL I met several mathematicians who were employed at NBS as computer programmers. At that time the development of electronic computers was in its infancy. The application of computers to scientific studies interested me very much, which led to my giving serious consideration to an offer of employment from International Business Machines Corporation (IBM). I left DOFL in December 1955 to work for IBM.

I joined IBM in January 1956. At a two-week training session at the Watson Computing Center in New York City I was introduced to the IBM 650 electronic computer and the programming language SOAP. I found programming to be a challenge because the creation of a computer program is an exercise in logical thinking and problem solving. After a year in the Washington, D.C. office of IBM, where I developed programs for the IBM 650, I moved to New York City to work as a consultant in numerical analysis at the New York City Data Processing Center of the Service Bureau Corporation., an IBM subsidiary. I enjoyed the work at the Center, but I did not enjoy living in New York City. Housing was in very short supply and what little was available was quite expensive. When the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) awarded IBM a contract to plan, write, and maintain computer programs for the U.S. space program the company opened the Vanguard Computing Center in Washington, D.C. When the offer was made to transfer to the Center, I readily agreed to return to Washington to be a part of the team of IBM mathematicians and scientists who were responsible for the formulation of orbit computations and computer procedures, first for NASA's Project Vanguard and later for Project Mercury. I can say without a doubt that this was the most interesting job my lifetime--to be a member of a group responsible for writing computer programs to track the paths of vehicles in space. I left IBM in November, 1960 when I married and moved to Los Angeles, California. In California, I joined the staff of the Computation and Data Reduction Center of Space Technology Laboratories to do research studies on methods of orbit computations.

In the early sixties there was a great demand for mathematicians and scientists to work in private industry as companies increased their staffs to perform contract work for NASA and defense agencies. It was not unusual in that era for a person to switch jobs often as more interesting (and more lucrative) positions opened up. In the spring of 1962, a friend, who had risen to a very responsible position at North American Aviation Company (NAA), urged me to join the staff there. NASA had awarded a contract to NAA to do design work for Project Apollo. In August 1962, I accepted the position of Research Specialist with the Space and Information Systems Division of NAA in a group providing technical support to engineering departments in the areas of celestial mechanics, trajectory and orbit computations, numerical analysis and digital computer techniques. I stayed with NAA until October 1963 when I went back to IBM to work in the Federal Systems Division (FSD). There I did work similar to that done at NAA--trajectory analysis and orbit computation using techniques of numerical analysis.

http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/granvill.htm

[Red State Blues]

34. Hi, my name is Red State Blues and

thank you for backing up my point:

"I also believe that it is terribly wrong and misguided to to apply any information from a general study to an individual."

The very first thing I said in this thread is that my Sister is a biologist. Anecdotal evidence of individuals (whether they be scientists or little girls with trucks) doesn't help us answer the question in a broad sense of why there is so large a difference in enrollment at the graduate levels of Science and Math between females and males.

I think the question is, were we to have a truly gender neutral society would we have true equality in enrollment in graduate level Science and Math programs?

I'm willing to say I don't know. What I have a problem with is people who already "know" that the answer is "yes".

I have a problem with people who want to fire someone because they dared ask the question.

I have a huge problem with people who would say that a lesser ability in any area (between sexes, races or individuals) would equate to an overall inferiority of any individual.

I have a huge problem with people who would misuse this type of information to limit the career and educational opportunities of any individual.

[Cruz]

35. Just a few abstracts from web of science to make you (implied me) think

Educational Studies in Mathematics
34 (1): 49-66, October 1997
Copyright © 1997 Kluwer Academic Publishers
All rights reserved
Gender Differences on the Math Subtest of the Scholastic Aptitude Test may be Culture-Specific

James P. Byrnes
University of Maryland U.S.A.
Li Hong
Tsing Hua University, P.R. China
Shaoying Xing
Shanxi University, P.R. China

Abstract
Cross-cultural studies can shed new light on theories of gender differences in cognition. In the present study, Chinese students were given items from the math subtest of the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) that have been found to produce the largest gender differences in American students. The authors describe how four different explanations of gender differences make different predictions regarding the possible size of the gender difference in Chinese students. Consistent with the Differential Coursework view but contrary to the predictions of several other views, the results revealed no difference in performance on the SAT items between Chinese males and females.




Gender Differences in Mathematics Performance: A Meta-Analysis
Janet Shibley Hyde, Elizabeth Fennema, and Susan J. Lamon
University of Wisconsin--Madison
Reviewers have consistently concluded that males perform better on mathematics tests than femalesdo. To make a refined assessment of the magnitude of gender differences in mathematics perfor-mance, we performed a meta-analysis of 100 studies. They yielded 254 independent effect sizes,representing the testing of 3,175,188 Ss. Averaged over all effect sizes based on samples of the generalpopulation, d was -0.05, indicating that females outperformed males by only a negligible amount.For computation, d was -0.14 (the negative value indicating superior performance by females). Forunderstanding of mathematical concepts, d was -0.03; for complex problem solving, d was 0.08. Anexamination of age trends indicated that girls showed a slight superiority in computation in elemen-tary school and middle school. There were no gender differences in problem solving in elementaryor middle school; differences favoring men emerged in high school (d = 0.29) and in college (d =0.32). Gender differences were smallest and actually favored females in samples of the general popu-lation, grew larger with increasingly selective samples, and were largest for highly selected samplesand samples of highly precocious persons. The magnitude of the gender difference has declined overthe years; for studies published in 1973 or earlier dwas 0.31, whereas it was 0.14 for studies publishedin 1974 or later. We conclude that gender differences in mathematics performance are small. None-theless, the lower performance of women in problem solving that is evident in high school requiresattention.


Math = Male, Me = Female, Therefore Math != Me
Brian A. Nosek and Mahzarin R. Banaji
Yale University
Anthony G. Greenwald
University of Washington

College students, especially women, demonstrated negativity toward math and science relative to arts andlanguage on implicit measures. Group membership (being female), group identity (self = female), andgender stereotypes (math = male) were related to attitudes and identification with mathematics. Strongerimplicit math = male stereotypes corresponded with more negative implicit and explicit math attitudesfor women but more positive attitudes for men. Associating the self with female and math with malemade it difficult for women, even women who had selected math-intensive majors, to associate math withthe self. These results point to the opportunities and constraints on personal preferences that derive frommembership in social groups.



Sex Roles
47 (11-12): 577-582, December 2002
Copyright © 2002 Plenum Publishing Corporation
All rights reserved
Gender-Linked Differences in Everyday Memory Performance: Effort Makes the Difference

Ann Colley
University of Leicester, Leicester, United Kingdom; [e-mail]
Jane Ball
University of Leicester, Leicester, United Kingdom
Nicola Kirby
University of Leicester, Leicester, United Kingdom
Rebecca Harvey
University of Leicester, Leicester, United Kingdom
Ingrid Vingelen
University of Leicester, Leicester, United Kingdom

Abstract
Previous research has found gender differences in everyday memory tasks such as remembering shopping lists or directions, and these findings can be attributed to increased motivation or memory skill resulting from the association of different tasks with masculine or feminine gender roles. To investigate the motivational explanation, the recall of an ambiguous shopping list, labeled as grocery or hardware, was examined under instructions that stated that either women or men are good at the task, or instructions that were neutral. The findings were not consistent with the skill explanation. There was a significant interaction between list label, participant gender, and instructions, which can be explained in terms of the increased or decreased motivation that might arise from particular combinations of label and instruction.

[alarimer]

38. these studies seem to point out it is mainly cultural

We need to get away from teaching kids that "math is hard" or "science is boring". This is true for both males and females but I definitely think that there is a subtle (or not so subtle) steering of girls away from those fields perceived as "male". It is better than it used to be, for sure, but attitudes are deeply entrenched.

[UL_Approved]

39. VERY good find

I wish I had started out my DU experience with something as well researched and applicable as you have.

A big

WELCOME TO DU!

:toast: :wow: :beer: :thumbsup: :hi: :headbang: :yourock:

[Red State Blues]

43. Loose ends.

Cruz: Welcome to the fray!

UL_Approved and other people I've pissed off in this thread. I hope some of my more recent posts have helped to show where I'm coming from.

I wish to add that I view these things as a starting point rather than an ending point. By that I mean that were we to show that Summers hypothesis were undeniably true, then that would merely indicate where we should work harder NOT where we should give up.

What about people who would misuse this information?

People who would misuse this information would just make up new "facts" to back up their position if they didn't have the truth on their side anyway. There are people out there who are determined to misuse nearly anything.

I have never seen a problem solved by pretending that it didn't exist.

[UL_Approved]

44. There are people here who posted information...

Now its your turn. Take some time, think about where your information comes from, collect some articles or studies, and post them.

I'm sorry if this comes off as self-righteous on my behalf, but you still need to post the research supporting your claims. Research supporting the claim of equality amongst the sexes has been put in posts.

[Red State Blues]

46. Please see

post #40.

also from post #35:

"Reviewers have consistently concluded that males perform better on mathematics tests than femalesdo. To make a refined assessment of the magnitude of gender differences in mathematics perfor-mance, we performed a meta-analysis of 100 studies. They yielded 254 independent effect sizes,representing the testing of 3,175,188 Ss. Gender differences were smallest and actually favored females in samples of the general popu-lation, grew larger with increasingly selective samples, and were largest for highly selected samplesand samples of highly precocious persons. The magnitude of the gender difference has declined overthe years; for studies published in 1973 or earlier dwas 0.31, whereas it was 0.14 for studies publishedin 1974 or later. We conclude that gender differences in mathematics performance are small. None-theless, the lower performance of women in problem solving that is evident in high school requiresattention."

Look, I don't see that I have prove that Summers hypothesis was correct, particularly when the source articles used say that Summers used "may". In fact, attempting to "prove" Summers hypothesis would go far beyond Summers statement.

What I feel I do need to show was that Summers had the right to say what he said and that male and female minds are not identical. I think these positions have been met.

[UL_Approved]

51. Post 35 is great

This post discusses several items that have some interesting implication. You listed the quote about how males and females have slight differences in math ability. That same information shows that this difference is narrowing, from a comparative value of 0.31 to 0.14. This is called a small difference by the author of that piece of study.

The piece of information above that was cited in post #35 was done with Chinese students. This showed NO variation amongst the students, whereas the U.S. students had the greatest disparity, which was how these problems were chosen.

These pieces of information show several different results, but one thing I saw is clear: the gender gap on test scores is decreasing. That is quoted in your post.

I think that this all points to the cultural theory as opposed to the natural trait theory. If our females have a disparity of test scores that other nations or other cultures don't possess, then we have to either look at this being a quirk of our ethnic groups or racial background, or we have to look at our culture as having a problem. That is what I believe is causing such an uproar. The close and narrowing difference between men and women is not being matched with employment opportunities and/or career choices. That is where I was making my point. I can see that development may be affected by gender, but I also see that this development gap is shown to be narrowing and is not present in some studies done around the world.

This is a good debate, and I see you have been fairly thorough in your argument. Its nice to see somebody carry this out without getting angry over it. The only thing I know for sure is that time will tell as to what is found in this area of study.

[Red State Blues]

54. Thanks

I've enjoyed much of this debate as well. I will try to address your post later today, must rest now.

RSB

[old blue]

37. BRAVO! n/t

[Red State Blues]

41. too late to edit

but I wish I could change:

I'm willing to say I don't know. What I have a problem with is people who already "know" that the answer is "yes".

to

I'm willing to say I don't know. What I have a problem with is people who already "know" that the answer is "yes" OR "NO".

[yardwork]

50. I sincerely doubt that Summers said only that there are innate differences

between the sexes. That is so obvious as to be totally non-controversial.

The question to which he was responding was "why do fewer women hold tenured faculty positions in higher math at elite institutions?"

To suggest that the reason for that has to do with innate differences is sexist, offensive, and not based on any scientific data. In essence, he impled that women are not as good as men at math. That's just stupid.

[Red State Blues]

53. Stupid?

So you have no problem accepting that there are innate differences between the male and female brain?

It's just absolutely impossible to you that these differences MIGHT have anything at all to do with math.

What differences between male and female brains do you accept? Which ones wouldn't be sexist to point out?

[AngryAmish]

12. He is toast -- He will resign within six weeks

He cannot be allowed to make any argument about possible innate biological differences between the sexes even if based on solid scientific evidence. It cannot be allowed and he is receiving the necessary punishment for bringing up the subject. This subject is forbidden from debate. This subject may not be researched. This subject must be suppressed at all costs.

[Bridget Burke]

22. So--where's the solid scientific evidence?

Observations about group tendencies can be interesting, but each person must be judged on his or her own capabilities. Period.

What field of science does the offending professor represent? Which of his researches have been ended?

[greymattermom]

14. men are obsolete

The real difference is that men are declining every year. Women now dominate undergraduate, medical and law school classes. Engineering is coming up too. What happened to men?

[NorthernSpy]

15. men will never be obsolete

They are as needed as we are, and always will be. We can achieve equality without insulting our XY brethren.

[superconnected]

32. Oh I wouldn't say that

Some men have become very obsolete.

Like the ones who have no evidence of men being brighter than women, in any area, that insist the Harvard Prof might be right.

Of course there are obsolete women too.

[WCGreen]

42. Erect barriers...

Duhhhhh, pull at tie, squirm and then, in a mock woody allen voice, not the best, I mean, choice of words,,,, Duhhhhhh

[imenja]

47. Not coincidently Harvard has very few tenured women faculty

It's culture is about 50 years behind the rest of the country.

[darkism]

49. There's that word "tsunami" again in something with no relation to weather

Can't people find OTHER words to use in such a situation instead of exploiting a natural disaster that caused unimaginable loss of life?

[yardwork]

52. I agree with you - it is offensive to use tsunami in this context

In fact, it may be an insight into how seriously some in the Ivory Tower take themselves, compared to the rest of the world.

[makhno]

55. Indeed

This isn't a tsunami, it's a storm in a teacup for the idle academic bourgeoisie.

Where is the outrage concerning Harvard's exploitation of the worker through the university's involvement in the stock market? Where is the condemnation of financial parasitism? But I forget, workers aren't a privileged group.

[Merope215]

65. Good point

I'm an undergrad at Yale, which (it seems) has an even more troubled relationship with its workers and issues of investment and social justice. Yale's investment office, and, I would imagine, Harvard's too, uses a management company whose activities are kept secret, so to be entirely fair, there might not be much outrage because people don't know what's going on. IMO, one of the main issues is that people are willing to think of universities, especially the Ivy Leagues, as enclaves of the liberal academic tradition, the life of the mind, and all that, without considering that they're really just big corporations, concerned - like all corporations - with making money.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I thought your own concerns were very relevant.

[makhno]

67. Sad to see ...

... that labor strife and financial opacity are still very much part of my alma mater's life. That a "liberal" institution would let its labor situation deteriorate to the point of a strike and wouldn't even recognize a graduate students' union has always seemed very revealing to me. The Ivy League school works well as a microcosm of a modern, urban bourgeois society - socially libertarian and yet fundamentally eonomically conservative, as evidenced by its relationship with those who do not belong to the chosen circle (economic class).

Anyhow, go Bulldogs! :hi:

[0007]

58. It would be interesting to know the gender of the voter on this subject

Do you think Summers' comments about women were offensive?
Choice Votes Percentage of 32395 Votes

Yes 15111 47%
No 15483 48%
Not sure 1801 6%
One thing is certain that the male population in penal institutions are higher than the female.

[wildwww2]

59. Your last sentence is very true. And men where the driving force

behind this stupid,unwinnable,murderous,corporate profit,war crime in Iraq also. Not women. I am a 48 year old male. Who never trusts anyone male or female. Until I find out for sure they are not a biased Bu$h Bot. Call me intolerant. But that is the way I am. And if I had taken that poll. I would of said yes. Summers comments about women were very offensive. He should only be allowed to clean the latrines at Harvard. With an attitude like that.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[0007]

61. Your input is indeed interesting!

I am a male 72 years old and through the course of my life I've come to the conclusion that woman is indeed more intelligent than man on the average. This is my just my honest observation through experience of living life.

No man has ever caught a woman. Contrary to what man believes.

I did vote NO