U.S. Troops Fire on Car in Northern Iraq, Killing 2 Civilians in Checkpoint

[NNN0LHI]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBURW6854E.html

MOSUL, Iraq (AP) - U.S. soldiers opened fire on a car as it approached their checkpoint in northern Iraq, killing two civilians in the vehicle's front seats, the military said Wednesday. Six children riding in the backseat.

U.S. troops trying to stop the car used hand signals and fired warning shots before firing directly at the car, killing the driver and front seat passenger, a military statement said. The shooting occurred Tuesday in the city of Tal Afar, about 40 miles west of Mosul.

It wasn't clear from the military statement whether the two victims were the children's parents.

"Military officials extend their condolences for this unfortunate incident," the statement said.

more

[NYC]

1. Now what becomes of the 6 children?

What a hellish existence.

[no_to_war_economy]

34. this atrocity happens everyday

this is all going to bite us in the collective american ass one day- you think your pissed seeing these pictures

imagine seeing it smelling it living it for close to two years now

paybacks are a bitch

[NYC]

38. No, I can't imagine.

I really can't. It must be a living hell for them.

[porkrind]

54. "Compassionate conservatism"

This is outrageous!

[UL_Approved]

2. What bothers me:

Why did the people in the car not stop when told to? Why would the person try to continue even though they were told to stop by armed forces? This leads to 3 possibilities:

1. The people in the car were planning an attack.

2. The people in the car were not warned.

3. The people in the car were running from something.

It seems like the people around that area wouldn't be too keen on traveling after that incident, and that this is an intimidation message. I can't think of any other reason for people to get killed at a check point like that.

[jayfish]

23. You Forgot Some There.

4. The people don't understand English
5. The people first reaction to the sound of gunfire is tho get the hell out of the area.
6. It was dusk and they had their windows up so they just did not see the soldiers or hear the commands.

Jay

[lostnfound]

28. More possibilities..

7. The driver was distracted by a crying toddler or an argument.
8. The man driving the car was on a list to be arrested and knew it.
9. The people have heard stories of what happens to prisoners of the 'coalition' and were too terrified to stop.

Living with the uncertainties every day must be nerve wracking.
I think your #6 (dusk/windows up/didn't see)is very possible.

[merwin]

41. From the pictures, it looks like it was dusk/dark out

[NCN007]

51. So what were they supposed to do?

Let the car go?

[lostnfound]

59. Did I say that?

Since I wasn't there, I can't judge. If I were a young soldier in the hell of an occupation I'd probably be shooting at shadows.

It's just a damn tragic situation and we never should have been there. I feel no obligation to pretend clarity when there is none. The only thing clear to me is that the man in the White House and the political structure that surrounds him have a lot of blood on their hands.

[librechik]

61. stop the car (barricade ?It was a checkpoint) and investigate?

it's ridiculous to speculate. Why are our soldiers there? To hassle Iraq people with children because "that's an order?" Have we really learned nothing from history?

[tuckessee]

66. I doubt there was a barricade or checkpoint.

Earlier articles about this tragedy indicated the US soldiers were a foot patrol.

They could not have been carrying the barriers and lights necessary to set up a decent checkpoint of any kind.

They were probably carrying only infantry weapons, communications equipment and personal gear.

They were a mobile patrol looking for action ("kill some bad guys").

[NCN007]

68. A car that doesnt stop has to be assumed to be a threat

It's not news when the car was loaded with a couple hundred pounds of C4 as opposed to a family. This is tragic but the soldiers who fired were trying to protect themselves. You cant hold them responsible.

[0007]

27. The Iraqi insurgents have been disguising themselves as U.S. soldiers

or Iraqi Police. Who knows? There are many reasons, when the U.S. is unpredictable.

[jhain]

30. hand signals

my understanding that US Military uses a raised fist to signal STOP.
Iraqis consider it a gesture of friendship- like a hand 'wave'.

[MnFats]

62. an outstretched hand is NOT an international symbol for 'stop.'

seriously.
many Iraqis take the traditional outstretched palm as a greeting, or something roughly translated to "proceed."

[MnFats]

63. an outstretched hand is NOT an international symbol for 'stop.'

seriously.
many Iraqis take the traditional outstretched palm as a greeting, or something roughly translated to "proceed."

[Stella_Artois]

3. Pictures

?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1E35EA336C366E658E7757C85AE85A779B

TAL AFAR, IRAQ - JANUARY 18: A car rolls to a stop after being fired at by U.S. Soldiers with the 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Stryker Brigade Combat Team of the 25th Infantry Division out of Ft. Lewis, Washington when it failed to stop and came toward soldiers, despite warning shots, during a dusk patrol January 18, 2005 in Tal Afar, Iraq. The car held an Iraqi family of seven of which the mother and father were killed. Their five children in the backseat survived, one with a non-life threatening flesh wound. U.S. military is invetigating the incident. (Photo by Chris Hondros/Getty Images)

?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1EF0B2BD8FB3CF273D7757C85AE85A779B

TAL AFAR, IRAQ - JANUARY 18: U.S. Soldiers with the 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Stryker Brigade Combat Team of the 25th Infantry Division out of Ft. Lewis, Washington push a car after that they fired on when it failed to stop and came toward soldiers, despite warning shots, during a dusk patrol January 18, 2005 in Tal Afar, Iraq. The car held an Iraqi family of seven of which the mother and father were killed. Their five children in the backseat survived, one with a non-life threatening flesh wound. U.S. military is invetigating the incident. (Photo by Chris Hondros/Getty Images)

?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1EDC6379E8C395B2417757C85AE85A779B

TAL AFAR, IRAQ - JANUARY 18: An Iraqi girl screams after her parents were killed when U.S. Soldiers with the 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Stryker Brigade Combat Team of the 25th Infantry Division out of Ft. Lewis, Washington, fired on their car when it failed to stop and came toward soldiers, despite warning shots, during a dusk patrol January 18, 2005 in Tal Afar, Iraq. The car held an Iraqi family of seven of which the mother and father were killed. Their five children in the backseat survived, one with a non-life threatening flesh wound. U.S. military is invetigating the incident. (Photo by Chris Hondros/Getty Images)

More .......

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/product.aspx?p=1&e=0&pg=1&am=-1

[leftchick]

5. omg... that last one with the baby crying is the worst....

she is COVERED in her parents' blood.... :cry:

[Judi Lynn]

25. That scene will never leave her as long as she lives.

How she will ever find peace I'll never know.

[porkrind]

55. WTF are we doing? This picture captures everything that is wrong

with this war. This breaks my heart. :(

[Rose Siding]

10. Why does the soldier in running shoes have his face covered?

Is he American or could it be an Iraqi soldier?

here...
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=52018187&cdi=0

He's also in the last image on the thumbnail page...

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState|1|0|30|0|0|1|0|0|0|52007332|0|0|0|0|0||0|0|0|0&p=1

[MileHiStealth]

11. What's with that soldier ?

Looks like he weighs about 320 lbs.
Guess they're taking anyone now ...

[Rose Siding]

13. I think he just has lots of gear on

Comparing him to the others, he doesn't look fat- just bulky.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

40. that is strange.

why cover the face and still stand in the picture?

[jmc777]

44. CIA or Special Ops guy maybe?

Or maybe an Israeli Spec Op? They're supposed to be floating about in Iraq.



Or maybe he just wants to keep the sand out of his face.

[petronius]

64. Perhaps an Iraqi interpreter

who would be in danger if his ID became known?

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

14. I'm sorry, but after seeing that child crying

how can I possibly "support our troops"?

I just lost the last vestige of respect for those fucking animals, and I mean OUR SOLDIERS. No circumstance could possibly warrant this terrible result.

To *bush: Proud of yourself, little man?

[daleo]

16. Bush and Rice have no regrets

They would say "that's the price of freedom - onward to Iran."

[caligirl]

21. Like the civilian world, you can't paint troops with the broad brush

of stupid thinking. some will make choices with horrendous consequences and others will hold them accountable for making those bad choices. You see the aftermath in photos, you don't see in photos what went through their minds. If you need to blame anyone blame Condi Rice, Bush, Rumsfeld, blame Biden, Dodd, and Obama and others who turned a blind eye to Rice and her decisions in voting yes for her today. What the troops did here is the worst of war, some will committ suicide over this, some will feel justified, Although I can't see how.

Blaming the troops is what Bush does.

In an examples of bad thinking my husbands helo squadron, when he was active, had some accidents. The first was because mechanics crossed up the cables that connect the rotor heads, the helo while turning up tipped over and sliced and diced a crew chief on the ground. Another was when a pilot, who sometimes followed NATOPS rules and sometimes made up his own, flew into another helo. That pilot burned to death, he had a new set of twins at home with a mother who kept saying she only had them for him, with another extremely well respected copilot and crew chief. The other chopped up helo made it safely back. My husband being the only one with search and rescue flight experience was first on scene and witnessed the smoking hole in the mountain side. That pilot was stupid, my husband, and so many others, went on flying for 2000 accident free hours and numerous training missions with ground troops all safely delivered. I lived this life, I know their are some bad people in the service, but the majority are loving caring people with wives and children too who are very professional and very desrving of respect and admiration, unlike Bush and Rice.

[UL_Approved]

47. Its not troops who we blame,

It is the war as a whole that we blame.

War is a powerful thing. It can allow corrupt people to flourish. It can make honest and decent people turn into corrupt monsters. It can make people change what side they fight on.

Bush treats war like a business move. He doesn't care about the ramifications, so long as the bottom line is preserved. To this administration, soldiers are just statistics and icons like a game of Command and Conquer. The reality of war is lost in the abstraction of the whole deal.

Of course, these troops are decent. The fact is, they probably have been ambushed by suicide bombers before, and were shaken up by it enough to do this. Now these people have ANOTHER trauma to deal with: slaughter of innocents. The soldier who is covering his face is probably too ashamed of his mistake to have himself identified, but feels too responsible to hide from the camera entirely.

Our soldiers are humans, too. Humans make mistakes, and war brings this to dire consequences. If you want to stop this kind of thing, we need a better plan for Iraq that can actually stop attacks before they start, such as diplomacy and negotiation.

[caligirl]

48. Some did in this thread, but read my other comments and you

will see we are in agreement. You make some intelligent observations with a sense of the situation others did not express. Thank you for the good words.

Iam not in support of the war, very much against it. As is my retired Lt. Col husband with 24+ years as a marine pilot. We know trroops make mistakes, and break laws.

Lets hope we can end this insane situation this year.

[Rockerdem]

49. DU should take the lead in starting a charity for the little girl??

I dont know how to start a thread, but a fund for this girls future should be initiated by somebody. This disaster is not on the scale of the tsunami but it is still a disaster. People could send the money that theyre not spending during tomorrows starve the beast boycott, or something like that.

[caligirl]

50. With over 100,000 Iraqi killings, I am sure there are many more

boys and girls in this situation. I don't have an easy answer to how to help, but if we brought this to our congressmans attention perhaps the next round of funds * will ask for can have a provision tied to it to pay for the needs of these kids. We are the party of responsibility after all.

[llmart]

4. Oh, well; too bad........

we goofed. You have our "condolences." Yeah, that should really help matters.

We are breeding more and more hatred towards the US everyday. The blowback will not be pretty.

[Supersedeas]

8. We regret the loss of innocent life--insert justifiable collateral damage

exception.

Let Freedom Ring!!!

[Lostnote03]

6. Add 6 children to the blowback when they reach maturity

[Judi Lynn]

7. Knowing occupation officials extended their condolences

will keep that family of children warm in the cold of night, no doubt, and guide them safely to adulthood far better than mere parents.

"Bring 'em on," shouted the AWOL chimpanzee.

[Redstone]

9. There's one newspaper with guts...

The picture of the little girl, covered with blood and crying, was on the front page, above the fold, of this morning's Hartford (Connecticut) Courant.

Anyone know of any other newspapers that did that? If there are others, we may be seeing the beginning of something positive in the MSM.

Redstone

[Tracer]

12. The Boston Globe ...

... but not on the front page, and not in color.

[denverbill]

19. The Denver Post had it page one, above the fold too.

What a way to start the day.

[bamacrat]

15. did you notice the soldiers covered faces

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. That is a freaky looking scene

"let freedom reign". bush ought to have to personally answer to those children, and explain his Iraq policy to them.

[Magmadona]

18. I don't support anyone willing to kill like this.

"Fuck" the troops and their giant floating fecal lord of darkness.

[RedCloud]

20. This is like believing Lt. Calley in Viet-Nam!

Where is the non-military corroboration that this car didn't stop or that is was warned?

Just like those unarmed detainees who got shot at point blank range, there is no way to question the dead...

[leftchick]

22. *graphic* Photo of the toddler who lost her parents....

:cry:

[jazzjunkysue]

46. Send this out and ask for an email swarm. I just did. The world needs to s

see this. Please send the address to everyone in your book and ask them to send it out to everyone. It's got to be seen. (The link to the NYTimes where this is hosted:)

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2005/01/19/international/19iraq.ready.html

[porkrind]

56. DU'ers: Nominate this picture for the FRONT PAGE !!!

Call to action: This picture needs to be seen by every American. It brings into sharp focus what is wrong with this war and this administration. This is the fruit of the neocon agenda, and shows what We, the American people, have become. This picture is a compelling argument that shows we have hit rock bottom. The only way to heal this cancer is to confront it in all its ugliness.

[cascadiance]

57. go beyond that...

I think it deserves a Pulitzer's Prize nomination. It's in the same category as that famous Vietnam pic of that girl running from Napalm. It is so much a vivid message of the "Why!?" of this war in that child's face! I still can't stop the tears in my eyes every time I see it.

But I second we can start here by getting it on the front page.

[porkrind]

60. I was thinking of that Vietnam napalm girl picture also.

A picture like that can change the world.

[Xithras]

58. Here are more, including the girl (warning, graphic and heart wrenching)

Not all of the photos from the sequence are being published in the newspapers. I pulled these from the getty wire.

I found this one heart wrenching. The anonymous American soldier, the bloody children, and that haunted little boy. As the father of three, I can just imagine what's going through his mind:

?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1ECB65C871B5831CE37757C85AE85A779B

Here's a different one of the crying girl. It's not quite as heart wrenching, but the symbolism of the bloody, crumpled, crying child, surrounded by the forces that terrorized her and yet completely alone, really summed up in a photo the entire reason I hate George Bush. Look at what he has done:

?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1E685919583D3F01947757C85AE85A779B

I'll let the rest stand without comment.
?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE3CD9B8550AEAEDDCD71C10F46A6BE19E621B2AC3A62513D3
?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1E97BB996D928CA6F87757C85AE85A779B
?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1EDC6379E8C395B2417757C85AE85A779B
?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1EDCD2AE48A2AE2F2F7757C85AE85A779B
?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE9A21091711E5AD1E42F068471C7A13577757C85AE85A779B

[shantipriya]

24. shame on us

I saw the picture of a child bloodied and crying in front of their dead parents in the NYT today and I am thinking where are the family value guys.I am ashamed to be a citizen of a country which can do this to innocent children and civilians when there is no need to do this whatsoever.When will the 53%of Americans wake up from their indifference and/or ignorance of what their leadrers are doing.

[ckramer]

26. "I have to kill you to save you! Now don't you love your democracy?"

[Tracer]

29. With every cruel incident like this ...

... there is always someone here on DU to inform us that we must not blame the troops.

Well, screw that.

It's been two years now, and I've read so many reports of our trigger-happy troops shooting at literally anything that moves, that I not only CAN blame the troops Ñ I do.

But they are only second in line for the blame. The whole rotten, criminal administration is standing first in line with the culpability.

I just hope I live to see the day, when the entire * administration is standing before a court of justice.

[caligirl]

31. they are 19 year old kids scared shitless being supervised by

22 year olds scared out of their minds. they have no idea who is in those vehicles until they stop. Ever since a truck in Beirut drove through a checkpoint when the sentry did not have a bullet and did not shoot at the guy, there have been very carefully crafted rules about how to man checkpoints and when to shoot. You may recall 242 Marines were killed by that truck. The media went nuts on this, when every one found out the guard did not have a loaded weapon everyone screamed our troops were being hamstrung by stupid rules. So now they make better rules,but they are 19-22 year olds with a rule that says they have a few seconds to make a decision. What 19 to 22 year old do you know that gets it right every single time? The blame properly belongs with the policy of us being in Iraq. Also they pick kids to fight wars because they are physically in better shape to do the job. Someone in say their mid thirties with more judgement experience isn't nearly as easily trained. And they aren't going to carry 70 pound packs for 20 miles. Maybe Lance Armstrong could, but look around you and see how many can walk around in 120 degree heat with a 70 pound pack. The hardship of military service is to tough for most of us.


I hate that this has happened and sent the photos to my paper the SF chronicle asking them to publish them. But these guys did not necessrily go about intentionally murdering their parents. They most likely never new who was in the car. They followed the rules of war, they are young people trying to do the right thing. Bad things happen to good people and these troops are no exception. War is heinous and should never be gone into like the Bushies did. It is in my opinion the ultimate crime on humanity.

[DrWeird]

32. I'm reminded of the gang shooting in L.A.

The one where the family took a wrong turn and pulled their family SUV into an alley tagged with the name "Avenue of Assassins" where they quickly gunned down.

[caligirl]

33. There is no comparison between gang behavior and military rules of

war. But the death of those parents during this war is no less a tragedy.

[DrWeird]

35. There exactly the same, actually. The only difference is scale.

nt

[caligirl]

37. use of force is governed by

the rules of engagement. (ROE). If they(troops) followed the r.o.e. then whoever signed the roe is responsible because he essentially gave orders for that to happen. If they did not follow the ROE as it was spelled out then they are criminals and they will be prosecuted under military law. The difference between this and gang war fare is in gang culture no one is accountable. The young men at the checkpoint are fully accountable for when they shoot and whom they kill. In this mix are people who have not been held to account because we have not held them accountable and they are Bush and Rumsfeld.

[jasop]

65. My Brother in Iraq said this is the

worst part.. because they don't know to stop. Its scary to Iraqis to think that if they stop they may be tortured, so they keep driving hoping that they may be recognized as Iraqi citizines that we are "freeing" from the Tyrant Saddam Hussein. Who apparently was a bad man.. he killed like 1000 people...

Didn't the americans kill over 100,000? Oh yeah wait Rumsfeld said we "Don't do body counts of civilians"

[atreides1]

36. That Excuse is about as good as "i was following orders".

Yes I recall the Marines killed in Beirut, I was still in the US Army at the time. Do you remember who were president and vice president at the time? Not to mention who was the SecDef, by the way
the ROE or Rules of Engagement are decided at the Pentagon, not out in the field.

Those troops are not carrying a 70 pound packs when they're on duty at a checkpoint, and being at a checkpoint means they're stationary,
not walking 20 miles.

And unless you have first hand information to the contrary, none of us know what happened at this checkpoint, we only have the military
version of it, and to tell you the truth, the US military doesn't exactly have much credibility anymore.

By the way the German Army soldiers that helped the SS to murder Russian civilians were just as scared out of their minds as the 22
year old US troops, so can you excuse them for their actions as well?

You pull the trigger, you're responsible for the results.

13 years US Army, Sergeant, Operation Desert Storm. Not as bad as what these troops are having to deal with, but at least we did return
a country to it's people, from Saddam.

[caligirl]

39. reserving judgment on all sides.

"And unless you have first hand information to the contrary, none of us know what happened at this checkpoint, we only have the military
version of it, and to tell you the truth, the US military doesn't exactly have much credibility anymor"

Agreed

Reagan wasn't it? Last Repug I voted for, even after being warned by someone who had known him. Got snookered but voted dem ever since.

But since I don't have both sides I am not willing to blame all the troops and call them all bad. Others who also don't have insider knowledge should also stop placinmg blame on the troops until they have said info.

24 years service, Lt Col USMC 78-90 Active duty pilot,FAC, +12 years reserve USMC, boat school '78 grad.

Unless things are different with the Army and Marines, privates and corporals do exactly what you tell them to do. There is a big difference in following an order you know to be illegal, shooting innocent civilians, and following the ROE to shoot at a vehicle that ignored the order to halt. This happens all the time, two years now, both sides by now know the rules. This is all conjecture. None of us know enough to pass judgement either way. All I know is that IF they followed the rules they were doing their job(harsh but true) and if they didn't follow the rules they are criminals. This is another reason why we should not be there, its not our fight.

Signed,
the Colonels wife,
And I have now got to take a sick kid to the dr.

[merwin]

43. Think about it from their perspective...

Hypothetically, say you work as a security guard for an office building, and just that day there had been reports of at least 4 or 5 people that run into office buildings and immediately blow themselves up, killing lots of people. With that knowledge, wouldn't you be just a bit more likely to fire upon someone who you believe is being unresponsive and following the general pattern?

[Magmadona]

52. Excuse me but what the fuck does that statement do to make sense of this?

Lets play drug take over. :D


Lets just say you decide to kill off the people in a neighborhood open shop, and make magical little rules about who can go where. You're already certain the people are pissed about your actions but oh no they best not drive through one of your checkpoints to go anywhere or hot damn you'll shoot. Whoops they totally ignored me and now their dead life's lessons are hella hard hopefully their children will grow up to understand this little mistake. O.o

[NCN007]

53. This is incredibly tragic (graphic images)

But what exactly should the troops have done?

[TheWraith]

42. Out of curiousity, how is this news?

After all, on an average basis U.S. troops have to kill a LOT more than two civvies a day.

Oh, right--they got caught this time.

[theHandpuppet]

45. A photographic sequence of events

The faces you won't see on American TV....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

[Nihil]

67. So now it's a checkpoint? Sounds better doesn't it?

The earlier reports were talking about "patrol" while the later ones
are all parrotting "checkpoint". I suppose it sounds better to say
that you shot civilians who didn't stop at a "checkpoint" rather than
you shot civilians who didn't stop for a bunch of armed, masked people
at night.

What's with the masks anyway?
One guy has some sort of desert kerchief while another has what looks
like a gas mask? Someone been playing too much CounterStrike or
Opposing Forces in their youth? They can't all be armed Iraqi
translators can they?

No, a proper checkpoint has a barrier to stop attempts to drive through.
A night patrol has only scared troops who have become trigger-happy
from the never-ending fear of sudden death - a fear that, ironically,
they are only fuelling with tragedies like this.

Nihil