IRA (officially) Denies Carrying Out Belfast Bank Job

[jman0]

"The IRA has officially denied it was behind last month's £26m bank robbery in Belfast.

A statement signed under the pseudonym 'P O'Neill' declared: "We were not involved".

In the days following the raid on the Northern Bank's headquarters, Sinn Fein rejected a police assertion that IRA members carried out the raid.

But this is the first time there has been any official denial from the Provisionals."

http://www.ananova.com/business/story/sm_1251109.html?menu=


Much political hay was being made from the fact that until now, the IRA hadn't "officially" denied involement and was therefore being interpreted as an implication of guilt.

[CollegeDNC]

1. Brits need to just admit they lost to the IRA

The fact that the IRA is certainly the only Paramilitary group in NI who has the kind of skill and precision to carry out this kind of expert robbery...DOES NOT mean they did it. My guess is that the Brits are once agin trying to use dirty tricks to slander the IRA. Most of this is because they just can't except the fact that the Irish have been kicking thier asses for 30 years despite thier best efforts.

As a Marine I worked with Royal Marines in Kosovo, they are professionals and I got along fine with them, but as an Irish American...I still am against the occupation of Northern Ireland.

[Stella_Artois]

2. When are they withdrawing ?

If they lost, they will be withdrawing soon right ? Northern Ireland will be part of Eire soon ?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

5. a change of national status can only come via a referendum in N. Ireland

The pro-union sentiment still holds a majority which is why the nationalists and republicans haven't pressed for a referendum for the time being. Also the Irish government doesn't show much interest in gaining Northern Ireland due to the significant security and infrastructure costs that would drain their treasury. Also overall sentiment in the Republic of Ireland reflects this. There is an major element in the Labour Party that would like to see a United Ireland, even if just for the huge cost savings of not having to subsidize the province any longer, but the UK government isn't able to do so unless there is a majority in Northern Ireland.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

6. I'd like to ask a question and I don't intend to flame

Do you believe that Northern Ireland should be given to the Republic of Ireland even if there is still a majority of pro-unionist feeling?

[Stella_Artois]

7. Have i got this right ?

The majority in Northen Ireland don't want to be Irish, the Irish government doesn't want the province, the Irish people don't want them either.

So, who does want to give Northern Ireland back to the Irish ? Just the IRA and some Americans ?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

8. A minority of people in Northern Ireland about 35-40%

But you have a point that some Irish-Americans are more adament about a United Ireland than what most Irish people are.

[Stella_Artois]

22. Irish or American ?

Thats what strikes me as strange. Surely someone is either Irish or American, unless they have dual citizenship.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

33. Many Americans of Irish descent prefer to call themselves Irish-Americans

even when they are not dual nationals. This is comparable to Italian-Americans, most of whom don't hold Italian citizenship.

[Bono71]

16. My wife is from the Republic...and yes, the Republic does

not want to incorporate the North...it would be an economic drain on the Republic (which is doing quite nicely).

The majority of people in Ulster are unionist.

[AP]

11. The EU makes this issue less and less important. NI doesn't need to be

"given" to anyone anymore. The UK simply needs to devolve more and more power to NI, making it more autonomous. NI will benefit from a legal relationship where major rights are guaranteed through it's relationship with the EU gov't. And it's economic strength won't be dependent on linking up with IRE or GBR because it will benefit from the economic relationship with all the other EU nations.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

13. That's a good point

I'm hoping that EU integration will bring about a satisfactory and prosperous end to the conflict.

[sweetheart]

3. The loyalists framed the IRA

They set the job up that there would be an obvious suspect, and the
police are biting hook line and sinker.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

4. The Provos took their time in denying, it doesn't look good

This could reflect the decentralized nature of the IRA, where perhaps a cell planned and executed the robbery without input from the IRA high command. To suggest that the British government is 'framing' the IRA, that explanation doesn't add up. The possibility of this being a loyalist group posing as the IRA still exists.

[jman0]

9. what doesn't add up

"To suggest that the British government is 'framing' the IRA, that explanation doesn't add up"

Rubbish, the NIO (Northern Ireland Office) have always been biased against Nationalists.
There are still personalities within the British government that feel they've an axe to grind with irish republicans, scores to settle etc. THey and their Unionist friends are not satisified until they get their fascist little Apartheid NI back.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

10. which personalities within the British government?

The Labour Party for 30 years has been overwhelmingly pro-nationalist, this why the nationalist SDLP sit with Labour MPs in the House of Commons. The UUP and the DUP have always treated the Labour Party with suspicion because of this and have frequently accuse the Labour Party of 'selling out'. I do grant you that there are people within the military and security services with axes to grind who could have pulled a stunt like this.

[jman0]

12. labour

I can't name names but clearly every Secretary of State for NI is proUnionist and the only one that was trying to be neutral was Mo Mowlan.

But the Labour party being "pro-nationalist" that's just ridiculous. Why would they be suspending the Assembly at teh behest of Unionists then? Despite when SF, SDLP and the RoI are against such moves?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

14. It was a catch-22 scenario

If it didn't suspend the assembly the unionists would refuse to take part and therefore under the Good Friday Agreement the devolved government would fail to meet the criteria of both unionist and nationalist involvement and therefore the assembly would have to be suspended anyway. The fault here isn't with Labour, but with the guerilla tactics of primarily the DUP who are trying to wreck the Good Friday Agreement which is what Ian Paisley wants most in the whole world.

[jman0]

17. not quite

The GFA stipulates that after a period of 6 months without agreement as to a sitting Assembly, that fresh elections should be held. That was my understanding. Elections upon Elections is definately more democratic that unilateral Suspension after Suspension.
Evenually the voters of NI will see a compromise even if it bankrupts a few political parties to get one.

[Bridget Burke]

15. "fascist little Apartheid NI"--indeed.

Isn't one "problem" with the Good Friday agreement the cooperation of the governments of "both" Irelands? Given the size of the island, working together on economic & ecological issues seems like a good idea. But even this much contact with the evil Republic is too much for Unionist diehards.

Ian Paisley strongly opposed the movement for Catholic civil rights in NI before the IRA got involved. That won him an honorary degree from Bob Jones University--joining the august company of Strom Thurmond, George Wallace, Lester Maddox--& now John Ashcroft. But nobody lives forever.

The Republic dropped unification from their constitution. Sinn Fein still want it but appear to be taking the long view. Loyalist diehards want to return to Protestant domination of the large & growing Catholic minority; time is not on their side.

[sealed]

18. Sympathy with the devil

While recognising Dr Paisley's connections to the extreme right, I respect the fact that during the peace process he was the only politician who was prepared to stand up an call John Major a damned liar which is exactly what he is.

He is also the only politician to recognise that the assembly is nothing more than the old English trick of divide and rule in its most venomous form to date. To have religion built into the very constitution is to continue the sectarian divide in perepetuity I don't think it's a coincidence the two main parties today (DUP and Sein Feinn) represent the extremes. My understanding is that the communities are physically and culturally more separated than ever even if the paramilitaries have been neutralised by British intelligence operations in conjunction with the so called peace process.

His anti-catholic stance comes from the fact that Sourthern Ireland in the 1960's was little more than a medieval theocracy, a country virtually no one in the United States or Britain would have been happy living in.

In case anyone believes I have a certain political stance here, I believe the only long term stable solution to the problem is an united Ireland brought about by a very slow merger (a Hong Kong 100 year lease type agreement could have been implemented with NI being part of the republic on lease to Britain).

The English made damned sure it didn't happen after holding the carrot out to Sein Feinn/IRA , drawing them into the peace process then shutting the cage door behind them.

[jman0]

19. paisley's anti catholic

"His anti-catholic stance comes from the fact that Sourthern Ireland in the 1960's was little more than a medieval theocracy, a country virtually no one in the United States or Britain would have been happy living in."

That's rubbish. You must hold some bizarre beliefs in what life is like in the Republic mate. What do you think changed then, because insofar as government and laws are concerned, not much has. So if you think Ireland WAS a theocracy, what and how is it different today?

Paisley's anti-catholic attitudes were not formed as a result of living or witnessing things south of the border; because he has never lived in RoI. Paisley believes catholics are devils and the Pope an anti-christ. I don't know what inspires him in this manner. I can understand that some Protestants could take things to the extreme, seems their beliefs are apparently defined by the act of opposing the Church (protest).

Edit: (adding)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/1678/ian.html
"While no priest has ever been elected to government office in the 26 Counties (Repbulic of Ireland), even though Paisley claims the Republic is controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, Protestant ministers, including Mr. Paisley, have always been prominent in the electoral politics of the North, "a Protestant State for a Protestant People." Ian Paisley is the head of the Democratic Unionist Party."

[sealed]

20. Theocracy

means that the country is run by the clergy and that's how it was. Government policy and public opinion came from the same pulpit. Many Irish politicians have publicly stated that thes things have changed over the years. Ireland is no longer run from Rome (it's Brussels now :-) )

Divorce, abortion and contracepton were illegal for example. I remember a catholic woman I knew being told to have unprotected sex with her husband whenever he demanded it even though she was advised having another child would almost certainly kill her.

I have never lived in Eire, but I know how things were as far as religion was concerned. I'm sure Paisley doesn't believe catholics are devils or the Pope is the anti-christ even if he has a Lutherian hatred of the priesthood.
tI certainly wouldn't want my life to be influenced in any way by the catholic church, one of the most consistently evil organisations in human history.

addition

"Paisley claims the Republic is controlled by the Roman Catholic Church" It was a reign of terror and is no longer. people were rerrified of the priests and nuns. Just look how often the catholic church in the USA has been caught abusing children for example. I have had a lot of catholic friends, all of whom have left the church.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Yes, Paisley does consider the Pope to be the anti-christ

see

Behold the "Son of Perdition," the great Antichrist, deny Christ by setting himself up as "another Christ"! Behold him accept such blasphemous titles as "Our Lord the Pope," "Another God on earth," "Father of Princes and Kings," "Supreme Judge of the Universe," "Vicar of Jesus Christ." and "Prince of the Apostles." No matter how we view the Pope we find him fulfilling with remarkable precision the role ascribed to the Man of Sin in 2 Thess. 2:4.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?printerFriendly=true&ArtKey=manofsin

[sealed]

23. anti-christ

So he does, I don't believe in the anti-christ, but if I did, the pope would certainly amongst the leading candidates.

[jman0]

24. pope is anti-christ is a famous quote

"During a visit from the Pope, Ian Paisley yelled "I denounce you. Anti-Christ" several times at the European Parliament. The whole affair can be heard on sermonaudio.com"

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley

Also from same:

"After a Loyalist rally in 1968, Ian Paisely justified his violent anti-Catholic pleas by saying, "Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners; and the massive discrimination in employment and shortage of houses for Catholics were simply because they breed like "rabbits" and multiply like "vermin".

In Republic of Ireland we had national referendoms on Divorce, and Abortion (still illegal). This was decided by the people, not by the Church. Again no priest has ever held office in RoI, hard to say it's a theocracy when no religious order is in power...

[sealed]

26. reign of terror

It was a theocracy and a reign of terror by the church. I also blame the catholic church for sectarianism in Scotland and NI by demanding separate schools as places of indoctrination.

This is forty years after the facts. There is no question Paisley is a bigot, I've heard literally hundreds of protetsant bigots.

In my view, the civil rights movement was totally justified as was the provisional IRA campaign to protect catholics. I'm not anti-republican as I've said, I am anti-catholic church.

[jman0]

27. nice to know

I'm anti-(insert whatever christian denomiation here)Church as well.
But I'm going to be careful to insure my views are in no way likened or associated with the likes of Ian Paisley.
But it still isn't a theocracy because a Theocracy is defined as: "A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.
A state so governed." and the RoI has since creation, been a democracy.

[sealed]

30. de facto

I meant a de facto theocracy by virtue of overwhelming influence, my mistake.

[sealed]

28. IRA

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of members of the provional IRA don't have a religious bone in their head.

Further, the adoption of the Catholic church as the state religion of Eire was part of a process by the early government to differentiate and distance itself as far as possible from its English speaking protestant former tyranny who persecuted catholics.

Perfectly undertsandable, but imo a big mistake.

[Bridget Burke]

29. So, is "Paisley" your actual city of origin? Would that be Scotland?

Or is it your last name?

(Profiles are so interesting....)

[sealed]

31. Town of origin (7 miles from Glasgow)

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2F16264A

[radwriter0555]

25. The IRA would have known that most of the money was specific to the bank

and wouldn't have targeted it.

I never thought the IRA did it from the beginning.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

32. The Irish foreign minister is 100% convinced it was the IRA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4180363.stm I don't think the Irish government has an axe to grind.

Personally, I think it was a decentralized element of the IRA who did it, without direct involvement or authorisation by the Army Council.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Could the Irish Foreign Minister belong to a political party.....

Opposed to Sinn Fein? And isn't Sinn Fein active (politically) on both sides of the border? Would a politician want to cast doubts on associates of another political party for reasons less than pure?

I'm not up on current Irish politics, just wondering.

This is one of those crimes that has too many suspects. IRA? Real IRA? Really Real IRA? Unionist thugs? Brits, just for old times' sake?

Edited to add: Dermot Ahern is Fianna Fáil