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budkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:00 AM
Original message
Exit polls say Bush won fair and square
This is the take from MSNBC... more BS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6840933/

Report on surveys finds system worked, even with errors

By Alex Johnson
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 10:05 a.m. ET Jan. 19, 2005

Overestimates of Sen. John Kerry’s support in presidential exit polls conducted on Election Day do not support allegations of fraud, according to an examination of the $10 million system released Wednesday.

The examination concludes that the exit-polling system worked properly, stressing that in the end, none of its clients — ABC, CBS, CNN, Fox, NBC and The Associated Press — was misled into making an inaccurate projection of the winner of any race. “However, the estimates produced by the exit poll data on November 2nd were not as accurate as we have produced with previous exit polls,” it said.

In fact, the polls overstated Kerry’s support by statistically significant margins in 26 states — more than half of them — and President Bush’s in four others. That was the worst performance since news organizations began using national exit polls in 1988.

“We believe that the positives greatly outweigh the negatives,” said the report, issued by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International, which created the National Election Pool, or NEP. “However, we share the members’ desire for an even more reliable operating system and more accurate data on Election Day.”

Fueled suspicions of vote rigging
The news organizations use the NEP data to help shape their coverage on Election Day. No data are supposed to be reported until all polls close in a particular state, but a series of leaked reports of preliminary survey results during the day led many supporters of Kerry to conclude that he had won the election.

When Bush turned out to be the winner, some Kerry partisans used the exit polls to insist that the Republicans had somehow stolen votes, especially in the swing states of Pennsylvania and Ohio and in districts that were using electronic voting systems for the first time.

But Edison and Mitofsky said a thorough examination of the survey data demonstrated that Bush won the election fair and square.

“Exit polls do not support the allegations of fraud due to rigging of voting equipment,” the report concluded. “Our analysis of the difference between the vote count and the exit poll at each polling location in our sample has found no systematic differences for precincts using touch screen and optical scan voting equipment.”

Top target: the leakers
In fact, the exit polling data suggest that the electronic voting systems may have been more accurate than the traditional mechanical systems they were designed to replace after the disputed vote count in Florida in 2000. In districts that used the new electronic systems, “these differences are similar to the differences for punch card voting equipment, and less than the difference for mechanical voting equipment,” the report found.

Instead, the uncertainty and contentiousness on Election Day were the fault of recipients who leaked preliminary, incomplete data from early in the day, said Sheldon Gawiser, NBC News’ director of elections coverage and chairman of the consortium’s steering committee. Prominent publications that received such leaks and reported raw data out of context included Slate.com, which at the time was an editorial partner of MSNBC.com, which is a joint venture of Microsoft Corp. and NBC News.

“Those of us that work with the stuff know you don’t start playing with the data” until all of them are in, Gawiser said in an interview.

To crack down on such leaks next time, he said, even the NEP’s clients will not get any data until 6 p.m. ET, when polls close in many Eastern states. While the embargo will likely hamper news organizations’ coverage plans, he said, it should cut down on misuse of the data by untrained Weblog editors and writers who do not understand the system.

Why Kerry ‘won’ the exit polls
The main impetus for the report was the perception that the NEP exit polls were flawed because they consistently found more support for Kerry than was reflected in the final voting tallies.

Not true, said the report, which found that no “systematic problem in how the exit poll data were collected and processed” explained the inaccuracies.

Instead, the report’s authors said, a variety of anomalies, some of them outside the pollsters’ control, added up to create a nationwide overstatement of Democratic support, especially in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Those factors differed from precinct to precinct, combining in various permutations to create “a sizeable overstatement of the estimated percentage of the vote for John Kerry.”

Most significantly, “it appears that Democrats are just more likely to take the exit polls than Republicans,” Gawiser said. “ Why does that happen? What can we do to reduce that?”

He added: “It’s an internal problem. It’s one that NBC feels very strongly that they have to look at to minimize. They seem to be looking at them.”

Preliminary handling of data from voters questioned early in the day also overstated the proportion of women who voted, who tended to favor Kerry, the report said. The error was corrected for subsequent interim reports, but by then news of Kerry’s “victory” was already rocketing around the World Wide Web.

Other factors
The report also blamed election officials in some states who barred survey-takers from approaching voters close to their polling places, as well as bad weather that led to lower completion rates at some locations.

Edison/Mitofsky conceded that some internal factors may have contributed to the skewed results, zeroing in on “interactions between respondents and interviewers that can contribute to differential non-response rates.”

Gawiser welcomed the report’s call for better training of interviewers and for paying more attention to “interviewer characteristics” — the report found that error rates rose for younger or less well-educated interviewers. “How much that will solve the problem, I don’t know,” he said, but it is a start.

In the end, there will always be some error in any poll, no matter how large or well-controlled, and that error can be magnified by the stresses of a particularly close or hard-fought race, Gawiser said.

As for 2008, he said, “I think it will be better, but until I know what the shape of the election is going to be, I can’t be sure.”
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. no systematic differences means Fraud was not in every machine
It does not mean no fraud.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. funny, this shit has worked for I don't know how many years until
el-bush comes along then everything goes haywire. really, really, funny.
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Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Yeah, funny how that happens now
specially with computerized voting and corporate media control.

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Bono71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Flame away, but I think he won...I do not like this...but
he had more votes.

No doubt, republicans are sleazy. And the voting fraud should be looked into.

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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. The fact is American's are stupid
Based on what I know, I am not surprised that Bush won. Look at all the silly ribbon and "God Bless America" and W04 stickers on the cars.

I am in a heavy blue state and even here these silly people pollute the highways. They are EVERYWHERE.

It doesn't surprise me one bit. The tide will be turned some day, but the Republican seed is so well planted and these people exibit such massive ignorance that the challenge ahead is extremely difficult.
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Bono71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I agree, the dems will win, eventually. The unfortunate part
Edited on Wed Jan-19-05 11:14 AM by Bono71
is, the repubs will first have to run the country into the ground before people wake up.

I also don't think labeling Americans as "stupid" helps our cause.
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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. What other word should I use
Easily manipulated? Ignorant? complacent? Brainwashed? Non-attentive? Lazy?
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Bono71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. How about, 'people who chose to excercise their right to
vote'...and go after their vote next time, rather than labeling them?
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Chico Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I've gone after their vote....
All I've received is a wholeheatedly right wing middle finger.. no matter how hard I try.

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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. I think I'm seeing more
Bush-Cheney and W04 stickers than were out there before the election. It's as if fence sitters waited until the were certain the boy king would be recrowned before they put them on their cars.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. I leaving my Kerry/Edwards stickers on
until the next Dems start running..whomever they may be!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. he got more ELECTRICAL votes
but NOBODY can say for sure that he actually got more VOTES since the system is INAUDITABLE and must be FIXED and talked about at EVERY opprotunity.

peace
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. See, we can explain everything...
There was never anything to worry about, so just move along now, nothing more to see here. Move along, move along now, just go about your business, we have everything under control...

Redstone
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. "the exit poll data on November 2nd were not as accurate as we have produc
“However, the estimates produced by the exit poll data on November 2nd were not as accurate as we have produced with previous exit polls,” it said.

pfft... whadda headline :crazy:

peace
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Give us two months and we can FIX everything!
Ughhhhh! What a line of BS!
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Hi Budkin - per DU copyright rules...
Can you please edit your post down to just four paragraphs and the link? Thanks!

DU moderator
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. Weasel words...read carefully!
"“Exit polls do not support the allegations of fraud due to rigging of voting equipment,” the report concluded. “Our analysis of the difference between the vote count and the exit poll at each polling location in our sample has found no systematic differences for precincts using touch screen and optical scan voting equipment.”

IOW, we couldn't find fraud DUE TO RIGGING. Nor did we find fraud via TOUCH SCREEN/OPTI SCAN equipment.

Likewise, IN OUR SAMPLE tells as lot. In Ohio, they carefully sampled selected precincts, NOT the legally required RANDOM sampling. They cherry picked. There is no reason to believe these people didn't do the same thing here to cover their asses.

They carefully frame their words. This doesn't say there was no fraud. It doesn't even say the vote wasn't in fact stolen. It simply says it wasn't stolen due to systematic rigging of touch screen/opti scan equipment. Nothing more.



Condi Classic Cartoon today at NBY
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Several points.
1.A couple of days before the election John Zogby the pollster said without hesitation that Kerry would win. Oddly enough, he doesn't seem to have spoken up about that miss since then.

2. ALL of the reports of touch-screen machines giving the wrong result (voter touched one button, machine insisted a different candidate had been voted for) were without exception Kerry votes being shifted to Bush votes. This was not a random error.

3. Comparative crowd sizes at Kerry events versus those at Bush events. Fewer people (in droves) showed up for the president, and yet far more showed up to vote for him. Really.

4. Even before the election, fewer than half the people thought this country was headed in the right direction. Historically, the incumbent needs to be above 50% to be re-elected. By now (according to one poll I heard on NPR a day or two ago) 57% think the war in Iraq is going the wrong way. And again, we're supposed to believe that significant numbers overlooked their doubts and voted for Bush?

5. The voting machines themselves. I ran for office (the Kansas State House) this fall and my district has 14 precincts. On election night I had volunteers at each of my precincts to get the readings off the machines as the polls closed. Overall about 30% of machines were unable to print out their results on the spot, and the chip needed to be brought to the election office, where presumably it was read correctly. That's an awful lot. I don't believe I lost anything but honestly, given I was up against a popular incumbent moderate Republican in a very Republican area. But there would have been no need to fix things for the down ticket race. I have heard some tales of the Kansas machines also defaulting from a Kerry vote to a Bush vote, and this in a state that Bush would have won honestly. Probably.

The real sad thing is that Kerry conceded so early and we did not have rioting in the streets demanding an honest counting of ALL the votes. That's what happened in Ukraine, where the exit polls also showed the challenger had won.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Great points, but
"Fewer people (in droves) showed up for the president, and yet far more showed up to vote for him. Really."

That one really CAN be explained. Remember that bush only spoke to vetted groups who were already confirmed to be supporters.

Not that this seemed to bother any of the Republicans I discussed it with. None of them seemed to think it was cowardly or evasive or anything. But of course, to those sheeplike Republicans, whatever their Party does is the right thing, and they always do as their Party tells them to.

Redstone
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The Donkey Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. Whaaaa?
“it appears that Democrats are just more likely to take the exit polls than Republicans,” Gawiser said. “ Why does that happen? What can we do to reduce that?”

It seems odd to me that this anomaly has never before showed a statistically significant difference between the exit polls and the ACTUAL RESULTS of a major election. It took them 10 million dollars to reach this "conclusion"?

color me satisfied . . . .

:eyes:
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demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. Isn't it funny....
How the 'liberal' media does not report about Abu or so many other things the * admin have done wrong but they report this? Well here is one person who will not drink that cup of koolaid!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. It's the media's fault that bushtard
"won"..without our rightist fascist media there would be no bush.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. There's certainly nothing suspicious about the timing of this release
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. REMAIN CALM!! ALL IS WELL!!!
<insert picture of Kevin Bacon as Chip Diller in Animal House>
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blackspade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. This is some of the worst written crap...
I have ever read.

snip

Instead, the report’s authors said, a variety of anomalies, some of them outside the pollsters’ control, added up to create a nationwide overstatement of Democratic support, especially in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Those factors differed from precinct to precinct, combining in various permutations to create “a sizable overstatement of the estimated percentage of the vote for John Kerry.”

Most significantly, “it appears that Democrats are just more likely to take the exit polls than Republicans,” Gawiser said. “ Why does that happen? What can we do to reduce that?”

He added: “It’s an internal problem. It’s one that NBC feels very strongly that they have to look at to minimize. They seem to be looking at them.”

Preliminary handling of data from voters questioned early in the day also overstated the proportion of women who voted, who tended to favor Kerry, the report said. The error was corrected for subsequent interim reports, but by then news of Kerry’s “victory” was already rocketing around the World Wide Web.

snip

This is the biggest cop out I have read about the exit poll "problems". It is obvious to me that these guys are incompetent and have no business being in the polling industry. It seems to me that the excuses they are throwing out there are silly on the face of things and probably make them culpable to the fraud at worst. This article does nothing to detail the polling problems other than "we don't know what happened...Duh...It could have been a number of things" MSM sucks.
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KingoftheJungle Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nice to see a whole lot of dismissal without anything to back it up with
But then again, Mitofsky is in on it, so I don't expect much else out of him.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-19-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. Duplicate topic
LBN is organized by topic. You can add this to the other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1164449
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