Astronomers Surprised by White House Plan to Scuttle Hubble

[shireen]

Astronomers Surprised by White House Plan to Scuttle Hubble
21 January 2005 03:36 pm ET


The prospect of the White House cutting off funding for any possible mission to service and save the Hubble Space Telescope caught the astronomy community by surprise Friday.

full story at
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/hubble_reaction_050121.html

[shireen]

1. another link

White House Cuts Hubble Servicing Mission from 2006 Budget Request
By Brian Berger
Space News Staff Writer
posted: 21 January 2005 01:49 pm ET


WASHINGTON – The White House has eliminated funding for a mission to service the Hubble Space Telescope from its 2006 budget request and directed NASA to focus solely on de-orbiting the popular spacecraft at the end of its life, according to government and industry sources.

Full story at
http://www.space.com/news/hubble_budget_050121.html

[StClone]

2. Government has two Neo-Con functions

KILL! (Military)

STEAL! (For Cronies)

It's in the Constitution somewhere.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. Well then they haven't been talking to their fellow scientists

boob brain has no respect for science.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

42. Education is dangerous

to this crowd.

An ignorant populace serves them best.

[jdj]

85. yes, that would've made a great campaign slogan

"W in 04, because education is dangerous."

[PurityOfEssence]

4. We already know how the universe was created; what do we need you for?

All you pointy-headed science geeks do is come up with more questions. We have answers.

[GAspnes]

47. the very point

I've never, ever, seen such a degree of incuriousness in human beings. Perhaps * and Frist were psychologically scarred by their experiments with experimentation and became afraid of learning.

Or, just barely perhaps, they're clot-brained roaring-boys.

[shireen]

56. cats?

Are you talking about Frist and his sick cat experiments?! Ow!

[stlsaxman]

97. Space is Satan'ss handiwork and science is his hand-maiden.

How often are stars and space mentioned in The Bible? Once- In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Jesus never told us to go to space- to even look outside the world is to go against God. Science hates God it's been proven so many times... </sarcasm>

[0007]

100. ....and besides junior has such a keen eye for future utopias

it would only make sense to scrap Hubble. What junior doesn't see Rumsfeld will!

[Minstrel Boy]

5. Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. n/t

[LibDemAlways]

6. You can't kill anybody with the Hubble,

so it's of no use to the BFEE. No one should be surprised after the last four years that anything not related to war, death, and destruction isn't going to be a priority.

[Stephanie]

26. That's right - read PNAC's Rebuilding Amer's Defenses on "space war"

They want weapons in space. They will shift NASA to military functions.

[hunter]

31. Well maybe you could.....

If I was GWB I'd be watching the sky the day it comes down.

[One_Life_To_Give]

7. They used the "E" word so it has to go

No point in studying the Evolution of the universe. It's only 6000 years old. And were smack in the middle of the universe.

Copernicus was wrong. Everything revolves around Man.

[TheFarseer]

8. I thought he was going to be the space president

Once again, holding the church mice up by their legs and shaking the pennys out of their pockets. Makes little sense to me.

[Ian David]

9. Another un-funded mandate. No Astronaut Left Behind.

Bush told NASA, go to Mars.

But he didn't give them any money to do it.

So now they're having garage sales.

[old blue]

10. Why would Bush want cosmology research?

genesis already explained it all

[tom_paine]

11. No surprise, Totalitarian Dictators loathe science and scientists

People who are accustomed to challenging established dogma, relying on facts and generating hypotheses based on facts are poison to ANY Totalitarians ANYWHERE.

That is why the intelligentisa and the independant scientists (not PARTY members) are among the first targets of Totalitarians when they seize a nation.

The Busheviks are no different.

Hey, at least they aren't murderig them on a large scale...yet.
Of course, it will only be the Traitor Scientists. PARTY Scientists who are willing to bend their facts to what Der Fuhrer His Highness Tiberius Bunnypants*, will be fine becaus ethere will be so many jobs open as the Einsteins and Fermis flee in the coming decades.

[coffeenap]

16. last time the scientists escaped to here--where this time??? mars?

[Thor_MN]

82. Tell that to Biochemists......

[MindPilot]

12. Trillions for war and destruction...

...not one damn dime to learn something.

Have I mentioned today how much I hate these people?

[Bridget Burke]

13. Surely, such a Godless machine must be destroyed....

The article points out that saving the Hubble is "crucial to the ongoing work of studying the origin and evolution of the universe."

From studying history & the Bible, Archbishop Ussher (1581-1656, Church of Ireland) calculated that Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC was the first day of Creation.

Since this is known, why spend money on such an expensive piece of equipment? Do we really need more "bad science"?

[74dodgedart]

14. Whatever happened to the Mars expedition ?

Didn't Bush promise that at one time ?

[ZR2]

15. Wasn't this in the news over a year ago

If these astronomers are surprised by it, they really need to get out more.

[shireen]

17. different situation

last year, the admin tried to axe Hubble. But there was such a public outcry that they reversed the decision and decided to design a robotic mission to maintain Hubble.

Then, a National Academy of Sciences (Lanzerotti report) commission endorsed a shuttle mission and astronauts to do Hubble maintenance. They said the risk was only slightly higher than International Space Station work. Last week, the American Astronomical Society endorsed the Lanzerotti report.

Today, we learn that Hubble is being axed again.

So yes, ZR2, astronomers do get out, and we're doing our best to keep Hubble going.

[old blue]

20. Not to even mention that this story appears

on the very day that HST proposals are due.

[old blue]

18. You haven't been following

After last year's announcement, Congress had been looking into a rescue mission, weighing alternatives ranging from robotic missions to shuttle missions. According to the linked story, the White House sidestepped Congress entirely and directed NASA just one week ago to scrap any plans to save HST.

[shireen]

21. Re: you haven't been following

Yes, old blue, i should have been more precise in my last post. The decision to revive Hubble was never official. But we were feeling hopeful when the NSF report came out. So today's news is very very disappointing, that the administration chose not to follow the recommendations of two major scientific organizations.

Last year, Sen. Mikulski asked NASA to reconsider their decision to axe Hubble. O'Keefe asked Adm. Hal Gehman, who led the Columbia investigation board, for his expert opinion. Gehman did not rule out a shuttle mission, but recommended further study on the matter by a panel of experts. So the National Academy of Sciences studied the situation, and came out with their report last December endorsing a shuttle servicing mission.

[mutus_frutex]

33. So, after they de-orbit Hubble

How long will it be until we have another telescope in orbit??

[shireen]

39. James Webb Space Telescope (JWST)

Proposed launch date is 2011. But JWST is primarily an infrared telescope. Hubble is the only large space telescope we have right now with Ultraviolet and Visible capability.

http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/
http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/

[mutus_frutex]

44. That's what I thought..

Men, I'm in an astronomy department I should know a bit more about this.. :-)

I bet that the astronomy community will miss Hubble. You get used to a given tool and then it isn't there anymore.

I'm not aware of what was behind the decision to make the JWST a mainly IR telescope. I mean, I understand that you can't do IR from the ground, but I would have thought that a more balanced approach would be better. Are the ground telescopes getting that much better in the UV-Vis range?

(I know I could check all this on the Web, but I find it more interesting to do it in a "pseudo-conversation")

Cheers..

[shireen]

45. JWST & IR

Hey Mutus. :)

James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) will be a much larger infrared telescope (compared to Spitzer and Hubble), and will give significant improvement in resolution. I'm not too familiar with JWST so I can't say more about it, but there's definitely lots of excellent science to be done in that wavelength region. If you need more info, send me a PM and I'll find out for you.

Re: UV-Vis on the ground -- some objects can be observed with adaptive optics. Even tho' that technology is advancing well, it cannot work well in large fields-of-view.

cheers,
shireen



FYI, for anyone interested,

adaptive optics
http://www.eso.org/projects/aot/introduction.html

Compton (gamma-ray telescope)
http://cossc.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgro/

Hubble (UV, V, and near-IR)
http://hubblesite.org/

Chandra (x-rays)
http://chandra.harvard.edu/

Spitzer (infrared)
http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/

JWST (infrared, much larger)
http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/

[mutus_frutex]

48. Thanks..

I'll check the links...

Cheers..

[Psephos]

88. Great links, smart post...thank you n/t

[papau]

24. There are 2 Hubble mirrors out there - If Hubble is scrapped then the CIA/

NSA mirror becomes non-secret and is turned around for use in science.

Seems fair.

:-)

[leftchick]

28. and this surprises them how ?

** never funds anything that doesn't make the fat cats/war profiteers richer. Welcome to ** world where science does not exist!

[papau]

53. The surprise will be how fast the the existence of the 2nd mirror is made

known -far and wide as they say.

It is an "open" secret now - meaning all know and all choose to not talk about it because why cause our side, our NSA, a problem.

That ends if Hubble is taken down.

[MindPilot]

19. You are correct, but under presssure from

the scientific community and us--by calling and writing our reps--it was re-funded. Looks like we need to do that again.

[DrWeird]

27. Those stupid scientists.

:eyes:

[daleo]

22. Bush needs the money for war and killing

Besides, Hubble supports Satanic science that denies the 6000 year old Earth as taught in the Bible. Plus, the Hubble telescope threatens the traditional meaning of marriage, and is favored by SpongeBob and his gay friends.

[liberal N proud]

23. The telescope is not managed from Texas, Florida or Wyoming

So there is no profit in it for the bush buddies or cheney pals, there for Kill IT!
That is the motto for the bush regime.

[Lisa]

32. yes -- can't give Maryland bragging rights on this, can they!

http://hubblesite.org/about_us/mdsci.shtml

[shireen]

63. LOL!

:thumbsup:

And we got Barbara Mikulski, the biggest Hubble supporter in Congress. She rocks!

[CoffeeCat]

25. They killed Hubble for good reason...

I heard that the Hubble Space Telescope is the preferred telescope of pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-family, liberal hippie anti-war freaks.

So, of course Hubble had to go.

Good Christians prefer Tasco!

[Lisa]

34. the funny thing is ...

A very good astronomer friend of mine, who used to work there, IS a long-haired leftist anti-war hippie!

With, I should add, a framed commendation from the CIA director in his office, for discovering an East German hacker breaking into US military computers back in the mid-1980s.

[shireen]

40. the legendary

Cliff Stoll! He's great!

:bounce:

[tlcandie]

29. They want it for Star WARS not research....

They aren't into intelligence gathering only TAKING!!!

[fob]

30. If NASA wants it to be fully funded they better take a picture of

"God" with the damn thing PRONTO!!

[CoffeeCat]

36. They almost did take a picture of God...maybe.

I can't remember where I saw this...Nova maybe?

A television program on Hubble showed how they photographed the beginning of the universe. They had pictures of the big bang--except for the second that preceded the big bang.

So...they don't know what caused it or what transpired the second before the big bang happened.

That *could* be God, if someone was so inclined to want it to be God.

Maybe if we spin Hubble that way, the funding might return.

"Hubble Proves God May Have Initiated Big Bang!"

(note: Please feel free to correct my science, if I mistated something!)

[FreepFryer]

35. The telescope is answering dangerous cosmological questions. G Bruno, 1600

(Giordano Bruno, astronomer, burned alive by the Catholic Church)

[Octafish]

37. "If it doesn't kill, what use is it?" - The Little Turd from Crawford

Most importantly: A hearty welcome to DU, shireen! Most everybody who likes space exploration is A-OK with me.

[shireen]

43. thanks

Thanks, Octafish. I appreciate that. :)

[brokensymmetry]

38. How sad.

Hubble is one of the world's great achievements - and now Chimpy will force its destruction.

What a record he's creating. :cry:

[Mountainman]

41. studying the origin and evolution of the universe

Could it be the fundie contingent doesn't want anymore science study in this area?

It is a shame we are held captive by the rightwing dogma machine.

[Mist]

46. The Hubble DIDN'T show

an old man with a long white beard sitting in the clouds. Get rid of it!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

49. All they need to do is tell them that with a million dollar laser which

can be funded by cuts in social programs, it would be able to torch anything on earth, anytime anywhere.... then shrub will order several dozen more of them..... with this ability, he will be able to call fire down from heaven like the bible says... and he can force people to be free with it... maybe... I hope... prolly not.

[orpupilofnature57]

50. It's the Dominion Theocracy in action, no time for the future on shrubs 8

[Flaxbee]

51. The EU should buy the Hubble from the US...

either that, or China.

The rest of the world is progressing while the US falls far, far behind, only capable of producing weapons.

[MHalblaub]

65. and let the Russians fix it.

They knew how to repair things in orbit. At the moment Russia keeps the support up for the ISS (International Space Station) with their Soyuz and Progress spacecrafts.

[glitch]

78. Good idea - hopefully some in Europe are thinking this already. nt

[MadisonProgressive]

52. Isn't Bush 'the science President'??

or is that the 'environmental President'??

I'm so confused now!

[VegasWolf]

54. bush don't need no science stuff, his bibble has all the answers.n/t

[Trajan]

55. I am so fucking disgusted by this bunch of numfucks ....

When will they lose power ? ...

WHEN will sanity return ? ....

Fucking Idiots ....

[wildcat78]

79. The inmates are running the asylum

They're so fuckin paranoid; they want to control ALL knowledge.

It's getting to be more Orwellian with each passing day.

[Monkie]

57. i know why..someone showed him this shot from hubble

god must have excellent tv reception up there ;)

[jody]

58. You can't fund both research and war, so war wins! n/t

[Borgnine]

59. Of course.

It would get in the way of what they really want.... a Death Star.

[sarcasmo]

60. No surprise here Right Wing Christians hate Astronomy.

[VegasWolf]

61. kinda disrupts their world view doesn't it. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

92. The Earth is only 5,000 years old, as is the entire universe

and the entire cosmos revolve around the Earth for the Bible tell us so.

The Bible, which is nothing but mythology, poetry, and quite a bit of propaganda, is incompatible with reason and science.

[MHalblaub]

96. I think if god exists then he is smart.

Smart enough to know what a tribe of vagabonds straying through deserts is capable to understand and to accept.

[NuttyFluffers]

62. Of course. The awe it inspires creates unity and peace. that's bad.

the coalition of evil needs fear and ignorance, not wonder and knowledge. the project was antithetical to them from the beginning.

anyone else here left unconvinced that these people are the embodiment of evil? beuller... beuller... beuller...

[jbnow]

70. That reminds me...

Remember Gore wanted NASA to send an inexpensive spacecraft to take continuous pictures of the earth that would be shown on the internet? I remember the delighted mockery of congress when it was scrubbed. It would have served some scientific uses too...but I just loved the idea...because of the awe...and the unity...we really are one world.
Might as well look it up. OK:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010715-sat.htm

The loss of Hubble dismays me. The wonders we can behold, stunning. And wouldn't they want to give God a chance to show off his/her creation?

Space...is so moving. I don't have the words. (But I thought his manned Mars idea stupid...and I didn't trust his plans for that Moon station)

[NuttyFluffers]

83. Triana... that sucks so hard. damn this RW cabal!

it could've been so useful, both for the science and the spirit. bill clinton handed us a nation filled with hope and possibility (that needed some work, to be sure), and gore would've continued that (i'm sure he would've tried again for Triana). it's all gone, it's all gone....

and what do we want now? to plant our buttcheeks on the 'face on mars' and piss on olympus mons and claim it is all ours. to see the wonders of space and see only opportunities to despoil... i bet most astronomers and nasa folk are heartily pissed at this latest direction.

[jbnow]

98. Look at the projects Hubble was into

Picking Hubble's Course

Or just any of these articles from the site
http://euro.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=&topic=11&allstories=1


The pictures it brings are so amazing...let alone the vast amount they can learn through hubble.

[goodboy]

64. According to the fundies, the universe serves no purpose other than

human amazement, and the way things are going now, we probably won't be around much longer to enjoy it anyway. Might as well use the funding to speed up wholesale destruction of humanity.

[rodeodance]

66. art. said the WH side-stepped Congress-lets see if Congress has a

nitty fit over this!!!!

[goodboy]

67. don't hold your breath...they're too busy licking W's little ballz

[rodeodance]

69. yuk-not that is a terible image!!!!!

[Solly Mack]

68. Why are they surprised?

Did they take him at his word or something?

[spanone]

71. The Christian Neocons are afraid it will show God is Ms. Mohhamed.

[ckramer]

72. Well, think about it

After all these years, it still hasn't found God! Time to take it out!

[tiredofthisstuff]

73. Careful.....We wouldn't want scientist to see god first.

The fear of "Where we really came from" must scare the hell out of Bush. Ignorance is much easier to grasp on to than to face the truth. So to me it is no surprise that Bush would scrap a device that chips away at the logic of his very beliefs.

[dbonds]

74. Can't have any of that ... skience getting in the way of our faith

But seriously, they are just looking for more ways to free up money to steal from the government. Hard to launder it through NASA.

[Dukkha]

75. The Hubble found Sauron

He is always searching the universe for The Ring.

[stevebreeze]

76. big big jump in logic here too

First read this snippet from the link in the original post;


That budget request, according to government and industry sources, will not include any money for Hubble servicing but will include some money for a mission to attach a propulsion module to Hubble needed to safely de-orbit the spacecraft with a controlled re-entry into the Pacific Ocean. NASA would not need to launch such a mission before the end of the decade to guide the massive telescope safely into the ocean.

Now think about this we don't have the money to give Hubble a boost to a stable orbit, and it's too dangerous to do this with a shuttle mission, but we can go attach a rocket to Hubble to bring it down? I admit you may need a bigger rocket to boost it to stable orbit, but isn't most of the cost just getting TO Hubble?

It's not like these morons don't want to spend the money they just don't' want to waste in on advancing human knowledge.

[Dr Fate]

77. But-but I thought he wanted to go to Mars? Flip-flopping?

???

[librechik]

87. Might be oil on Mars. Hubble won't help much with that

On to Luna One!

Nah, it's just a Shrub fantasy. There isn't enough money in the universe to make Mars happen. With the kind of deficits he's talking about? He's just a fucking lunatic, and nobody who could do anything about it wants to admit it.

[shireen]

89. Titan has Methane

Huygens just found out that Titan has a lot of methane. That's a good fuel source. Uh oh....

[shireen]

80. what about ISS?

What's interesting is that NASA will continue using the shuttle and astronauts for completing the International Space Station (ISS). About 25 to 30 flights are planned.

The Hubble servicing mission is *one* shuttle flight. The two science instruments are almost done. (I don't know the status of the batteries and gyroscopes.) A lot of the specialized tools will come from previous servicing missions. Astronauts have already demonstrated their skill in maintaining Hubble, as seen from the spectacular successes of past servicing missions. The science that Hubble has produced speaks for itself.

I just don't understand .....

[daleo]

81. I think they will desert the ISS soon as well. n/t

[MHalblaub]

94. The ISS is maintained by Russia at the moment. -nt-

[jazzjunkysue]

84. Galileo, Copernicus: US scientists will be lucky not to be jailed or dead.

[pinniped]

86. The POS was a big space cadet last year. Why the sudden...

rush to abandon space stuff?

A mission to Mars might be the only way to rid ourselves of this asshole. Though he wouldn't have been the first monkey in space.

[RockStar]

90. Why so suprise you dont expect our govt to tell us what is really in space

[RockStar]

91. Why so suprise you dont expect our govt to tell us what is really in space

[Bake]

93. Hubble has given us the most spectacular views of the universe

in the entire history of humankind.

So of course * must kill it. GODDAMN THAT SONOFABITCH!!

Bake

[BBradley]

95. There is no space, it's one of those exaggerations.

[Massacure]

99. Aren't they working on the James Web Space Telescope as a replacement?

There will only be a two or three year gap between Hubble and JWST.

[shireen]

101. JWST

is an infrared telescope, exploring a different region of the electromagnetic spectrum. (Hubble covers ultraviolet, visible, and near-infrared.)

[shireen]

102. Daily Kos thread

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/22/14336/8080

[Canuckistanian]

103. WH wants the money diverted to idiotic Mars mission

So, it's not even about saving the $1B cost. It's all about *'s personal vanity project.

[fshrink]

104. The idiot already knows what's beyond the stars. nt

[progressoid]

105. Save the Hubble petition

http://www.savethehubble.org/main.jsp