Can Anyone Unseat F.D.R.? -NYT

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON — To some Republicans, the start of this presidential term is their moment, their chance to become the permanent majority party with a new vision that goes by various names: the ownership society, the Conservative New Deal, the New New Deal.
...
Even some devout conservatives doubt that this can happen...
After all, Americans love to talk about self-reliance, but they also love to vote for politicians who have been providing them with pensions, disability checks, health benefits, farm subsidies and other payments that have kept the government expanding through Republican as well as Democratic administrations, and especially during Mr. Bush's first term.
...
"Social Security is the soft underbelly of the welfare state," said Stephen Moore, the former president of Club for Growth, an antitax group. "If you can jab your spear through that, you can undermine the whole welfare state."
...
"If you frame the private Social Security accounts as giving your children the right to choose, as opposed to cutting benefits or forcing anyone to do anything, I think it's a total winner for us," Mr. Gingrich said in an interview. "The accounts will create the first 100 percent capitalist society in history. Fifty years from now, relatively poor Americans for the first time will have their own personal savings; they'll see the power of interest buildup over time and appreciate the importance of property."

http://nytimes.com/2005/01/23/weekinreview/23tier.html?hp&ex=1106456400&en=ab2fddd8f27769ae&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[54anickel]

1. Wow! They are now bold enough to come right out and say they

want to kill the beast. Hope this type of talk backfires on them.

[TahitiNut]

2. Let's take notice of the FALSE meme.

"they also love to vote for politicians who have been providing them with pensions, disability checks, health benefits, farm subsidies and other payments"

WRONG!

People with conscience are voting to provide others in need with the minimum support they need to survive!! I never voted for such programs for myself. I support such programs for those in far greater need than I.

These fucking bastards want to present everything as greed and self-interest ... because that's how our nation becomes divided. The self-serving fascists and bigots get to rationalize their own greedy selfish attitudes by projecting those attitudes on those who support such humane and compassionate programs. That's fucking bullshit!

This meme is repeated, over and over and over and over and over and over in the media ... as though anyone who supports such programs does so out of greedy self-interest. This is totally contrary to the fact that the vast majority who do so, do so out of conscience and a sense of commitment to others.

[Krupskaya]

5. Not only that...

...but union pension plans are NEGOTIATED AND BARGAINED FOR by members with employers. No one GIVES anyone anything. It's a fucking AGREEMENT between two groups. AAAARRRRGHGHGHGH!

[Beetwasher]

33. Yup, Excellent Observation

This sort of bias is practically hard wired into the system.

[Lisa]

34. supporting our neighbours -- exactly ...

This is how most Canadians view Medicare and our other social programs. No doubt the neo-cons are mystified and enraged by why so many of us feel that Medicare, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and the Canada Pension Plan (our equivalent of Social Security) are not just a bunch of government agencies, but things that are vital to our unity and ideals as a country. TahitiNut said this far more eloquently, but -- it pleases and reassures me, to know that my tax dollars are supporting schools, hospitals, and seniors' homes .... even if I don't have kids, have (luckily) avoided serious medical problems, and am only in my 30s. I have no intention of trying to wriggle out of funding these things. It's not about me. It's about the society in which I want to live.

It's no coincidence that the first province to get a public health insurance plan was Saskatchewan -- which had been hit hard by the Depression and was only able to keep important services running because regular citizens banded together to assist themselves and their communities. People like Tommy Douglas, a Baptist minister, had come to realize that faith-based charities just aren't enough to cope with the really big problems.

The so-called "welfare state", many of us up here feel, is the means by which we take care of our society -- not something imposed on us against our will. We want it to be universal, so not just the loudest or most photogenic of those in need (e.g. those heart-rending appeals to help one little girl or boy get medical treatment) receive assistance. If the right-wingers want to see it as a giant trough for undeserving "swine" -- perhaps it's because they are projecting their own desires on it! They're certainly eager to demand "corporate welfare" in the form of tax breaks and incentives, or free facilities paid for by the rest of us (like the stadium that W managed to have built for his sports team!).

p.s. and just to add in here -- my parents' pensions, CPP or employer-based, aren't some kind of free handout. They paid into those plans their entire working lives! Suddenly telling people on the verge of retirement that there is no more money in the fund, or that they will now be expected to retrain as investment analysts just to make sure they have enough to live on, is tantamount to fraud!

Poor people don't really appreciate the concept of property? Please, let that be some incredibly out-of-context quote, or Dr. Gingrich needs a refresher course in the real world!

[punpirate]

3. 100% capitalist society in history?

Gingrich is insane. Period. Mad. Gone. Gonzo. Off the deep end. Mired in mental muck. A burger short of a Happy Meal. A couple of bricks shy of a load. Soft as a grape. Soft as a sneaker full of puppy shit.

If he and his fellow hard-core crazies get everything they want, his "100% capitalist society" will create another depression in this country within a decade.

[OKNancy]

6. I was about to post the same thought only turned around

Has there ever been a successful culture in all of history that was not a "welfare state" to some extent? I know in modern times there is none.

[punpirate]

11. The key word is "successful..."

... after all, the United States encountered a severe depression through precisely the same policies as those espoused by Gingrich and his fellow nut cases. Had Herbert Hoover and his ilk prevailed, the country would now be a joke.

The pure capitalist society is self-consuming, so, yes, there have been no examples of successful, enduring, completely laissez-faire economies. The reputed value of such a society is simply a myth perpetuated to further redistribute available wealth upwards and individualize risk, just as Reagan's trickle-down theory was a myth intended to do the same.

Unrestrained greed always results in disaster.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

17. Isn't Mexico

close to 100% capitalistic? Look how successful that country's been. <sarcasm>

[Toots]

32. The whole purpose of government is to provide for the

"Health and Welfare" of it's people. These people are so deluded they actually think they are the government.

[burythehatchet]

16. the ethically challenged mr. gingrich is like gum under

our collective shoe. No matter how many times he's found guilty of this or that, he just sticks around. Plus he's possibly the most unattractive person in the beltway.

[Demeter]

21. There Are So Many; How Do You Choose?

And they all believe that they got there on their own merits...the ultimate welfare babies!

[dansolo]

24. It's not "100% capitalist" with all of the corporate welfare

A pure capitalist system would not have any individual companies favored and subsidized over any others by the government.

[punpirate]

29. To my mind...

... a pure capitalist society would be fascism--the biggest capitalists running the government. That's why I don't factor in government largesse to corporations--I take it for granted that will happen, because corporations would be pulling all the strings.

Cheers.

[0rganism]

27. Crazy like a fox

Gingrich is a partisan, through and through. Everything he does is completely devoid of ethics, and completely devoted to promoting his good ol' boy network we call the GOP. Is he spouting bullshit? Sure, but it's carefully crafted bullshit, and next week every conservative talk show host and news analyst in America will be quoting that line like gospel truth.

You tell me whose memes are getting the airplay and turning out the vote these days. Does Newt really believe that we'll get a "100% capitalist society" by disemboweling welfare? I doubt that, I doubt it very much. He knows very well this is nothing less than the opening of overwhelming subsidies and contracts for all those corporations sponsoring the republican party, and their support is the key to continued republican dominance of the federal government.

Newt talks small government, but hidden not-so-deep in his words are the codes for cheap labor and upward transfer of wealth. A 100% capitalist society would be absolute poison for him and his tycoon buddies, but one in which the government itself is a tool for controlling the markets for the interests of the ultra-wealthy is very much to his liking.

[The Zanti Regent]

4. What happens when Walls Street falls down and goes boom?

Tha Nazi Party loves that bullshit about the churches taking care of the needy! And it won't happen.

[oneold1-4u]

20. Churches in need

The "churches" are always in need to build bigger, more
spectacular places for the rich to wish to worship there. A few do honestly give aid to the poor and downtrodden, but many of those, only if the persons will attend church.
The US government doesn't give to the small simple community church, but puts millions in the coffers of the ones with huge memberships that will promote their agendas.
I have been the needy, and seen thousands more needy, and know that if the US follows through with planned social changes, (SS and others) there will have to be soup kitchens and housings larger than the largest military bases all over the nation.

[0007]

28. Most fat pharisees will run with the money when times get tough

[NashVegas]

7. This Strikes Me as a Faulty Argument

By tieing the debate to a president who's been dead for over 50 years, we're *giving* them the "outdated" argument.

By allowing Pukes to use the 'antiquated FDR' meme, the debate about SS is reduced to cult of personality.

There's no cult of personality attached to the FICA taxes that are deducted from our checks, nor the returns upon retiring.

They cannot be allowed to reduce the argument to the dead president and minimize the impact from Joe Public's mind.

[UL_Approved]

31. A reference to the "old" that never existed

This is taken out of Hitler's ideology and political toolbox. You tell people that a new system fixes the wrongs of the old way of doing things. The catch is, you make up some quality about the old way that never existed in order to further your point. This is very tried and true.

FDR is the ultimate thorn in their side. FDR created social welfare, thus permanently putting a leash on social caste systems. FDR defeated their buddies in NAZI Germany (the GOP wanted to stay out of WWII). FDR put them in a small box and taped it shut for one and a half decades. This is like the prince that kills the king over jealousy.

[coreystone]

8. The "greed" of capitalism as a behavioral reinforcer

epitomizes the "anithesis" of Christian charity to me.

[K8-EEE]

9. Who's Laughing At Al Gores "LockBox" Speeches Now?

It's up to us to make sure these maniacs don't get their paws on the SS $$!

[dansolo]

25. They already have

How much of our deficit is being offset by borrowing from SS funds?

[vogonjiltz]

10. "...poor Americans... appreciate the importance of property."

Um, I'm alot poorer now than I was 3 three years ago, I appreciate the importance of property, I just can't afford any right now and don't expect to.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

12. Such CRAP!!! We tried the unregulated Capitalist system in the....

1920's and it was proven to be a MISERABLE FAILURE!

:eyes:

We need Congress in 2006!

[SoCalDem]

13. Gee.. I do LOVE the "ownership" society idea..

I'll be checking my mailbox for those "royalties" from the profits of the natural resources of MY country.. If I am a citizen of the country, I should be "part-owner" of its resources too :)

The republican version of "privatization" always seems to involve privatization of property that should be shared by all, as a part of the benefit of being a citizen.

Just because you poke some holes in MY country shouldn't mean that now you OWN what came out of that hole :)

[tlcandie]

14. Pretty forthright in their wickedness...

<snip>
"Social Security is the soft underbelly of the welfare state," said Stephen Moore, the former president of Club for Growth, an antitax group. "If you can jab your spear through that, you can undermine the whole welfare state."
...
"If you frame the private Social Security accounts as giving your children the right to choose, as opposed to cutting benefits or forcing anyone to do anything, I think it's a total winner for us," Mr. Gingrich said in an interview.
<snip>

So, Gingrich IS saying that it's illusion? Frame it as private as giving you the right to choose when in reality (as opposed to) cutting benefits or forcing anyone to do anything... he think's this is a winner!!

Jab a spear throught that (the soft underbelly of the welfare state) then you can undermine the whole welfare state!!!

Woohoo!! :bounce:

This shows that they see social security/welfare and federal government programs as a dragon/demon to be slain...reference soft underbelly which is where dragons are supposedly the most vulnerable.

:cry:

[Just Me]

23. They reject any obligation of governance to protect its citizens,...

,...not only from physical predators but also economic predators.

I simply can NOT wrap my brain around their perspective of the world, hard as I try to do so. Maybe I have simply had a more diverse experience of life than they know.

Their "wickedness" lies in their EXTREME tunnel vision which may very well reflect their blind faith that individuals have complete power over their lives. On the other hand, they may be simply power predators and have no compassion for the rest of humanity.

All I can say is that I agree with a previous poster who characterized Gingrich and bunch as sick, sick, sick human beings.

[genieroze]

15. It's funny how they have come to rely on the money we pay into SS

to use for their own agenda and then complain when people want to use THEIR money that they paid into that system.

[oneold1-4u]

22. SS is not completely broke

But the US is near bankruptcy and the money removed for government use from SS (surplus???) was replaced with bonds backed by none other than this government in trouble. Just confuse the whole program with putting those worthless bonds into ????? and no one has to take the responsibility for what ever happens.
Many have paid into company and union pension funds through their working lives only to see them disappear and no one ever held accountable. Think this "government" we have today is any different?

[shrike]

18. NOW the MSM is talking about it.

This has been an open secret for years: I remember when the Federalist Society held a conference in Chicago a few years ago: it was called "Rolling Back The New Deal." I tell people, everyday people in my life, that these people want to get rid of the social security net, undo FDR's work. I don't think very many people believed me.

[Alpharetta]

19. How much will they bribe AARP to endorse this plan?

The "Greatest Generation" went for the Medicare thing, knows they got hornswoggled, knows the AARP sold them up the river, and yet they still voted mostly for Bush.

I bet they'll fall for this one too. In 2008 Dubya will be gone and Jeb will say "Hey, I ain't the heavy, he's just my brother."

[Just Me]

26. I have seen no evidence of any of that,...none. eom

[bvar22]

30. Unrestrained Capitalism is a FAILED economic system.

It was tried in the USA.
The era of the Robber Barrons was FANTASTIC for 1 per cent of the population. So was the depression of the '20s.

This IS CLASS WARFARE!!! and it was started by THE RICH!!!

[BeatleBoot]

35. Why Do Republicans Hate America?