Pope says abstinence, fidelity best way to stop AIDS

[quaoar]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1287004.htm

Pope says abstinence, fidelity best way to stop AIDS
Pope John Paul II says the Roman Catholic Church believes abstinence and fidelity within marriage are the best way to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS, not condoms.

It is the first time the Pope has commented on the issue since a Catholic official in Spain last week appeared to question the Church's stand against condoms.

In a written statement, the Pope says the Church believes that promoting the use of condoms fosters what it sees as immoral and hedonistic lifestyles that will only contribute to the spread of HIV and AIDS.

- Reuters

[Dookus]

1. technically true, I guess

and starvation is the best way to cure obesity.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. Excellent analogy.

[MadisonProgressive]

90. And death is the best way to eliminate those nasty daytime thoughts

[SharonAnn]

132. Abstinence and fidelity also best way to stop priest pedophilia

[Psephos]

Great advice from an "expert" who has never been laid. Too rich. n/t

[BrutalEntropy]

43. haha nice point! n/t

[Zenlitened]

3. A real bold stance. Of COURSE that's the best way to prevent AIDS.

But what does that have to do with making condoms available to those who do not abstain?

What a scam.

[arwalden]

88. The Pope Is CRUEL And ARROGANT...

... he's not concerned with PREVENTING AIDS at all. If preventing AIDS were a genuine concern, then he would support the use of condoms.

What he's really doing is using the fear of AIDS to try and prevent people from having sex. Preventing the spread of AIDS is NOT the goal. His goal is to prevent unmarried people from having SEX.

Perhaps for a very small and insignificant portion of the population, this approach might work. But he's clearly living in a fantasy world.

In his IDIOCY and ARROGANCE and in his quest for perfection, he fails to realize how much more suffering and disease could be eliminated. Millions of births could be avoided which would help ease the suffering and starving of millions more people.

His arrogance won't even permit him to realize that EVEN in approving condom use, the church could STILL continue to encourage abstinence and being faithful to one partner. --- But NOOOOO... no matter how *unrealistic* and *unattainable* the goal is, for him... only "perfection" is acceptable.

Perfection is NOT possible. Yet the Pope appears to be satisfied with a fraction of a percentage of "perfection"... instead of making an INTELLIGENT compromise and improving the quality of life for MILLIONS is possible.

It's clear to me that the Pope is SPERM-OBSESSED and FETUS-OBSESSED and SEX-OBSESSED. It's also clear that the Pope cares very little about the actual condition of the HUMAN EXISTENCE.

Sitting there in his ivory tower of REGAL OPULENCE, he and his are TOTALLY DETACHED from the REALITY that surrounds them.

What ARROGANCE! He's totally INSANE!

What a CRUEL thing for him to do! It makes me want to VOMIT!

[melnjones]

4. Yup, it sure is.

Just not the most realistic way.

[McKenzie]

5. it seems to have escaped his notice

that the human race would be extinct if it wasn't for lust. People don't sit down and have a clinical discussion about whether to get it on or not; it's a tad more spontaneous than that in my experience.

[sonicx]

6. If I don't drive a car, I won't get in a car crash...

:crazy:

[HockeyMom]

9. Condoms

They don't like condoms, even IN MARRIAGE. Prevent babies. And of course, babies are the purpose of sex. Spent 12 years in catholic school.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunkerbuster1]

33. If everyone followed Christ's teachings and turned the other cheek

there'd be no violence.

I don't see the Pope bitching about the existence of standing armies. I don't see the Pope telling everyone to unilaterally disarm.

I say the man needs to have a nice hot slice of STFU about this issue. But that's just me.

[Damien]

79. actually...

The pope did come out against W's invasion of Iraq (very strongly), has publically condemned torture, and has advocated negociations in numerous armed conflicts around the world.

[bunkerbuster1]

100. I know. He's also opposed to the death penalty.

He's a lot more consistent than most pro-lifers I've met in that he really does appear to believe in the sanctity of all human life.

But he's not really a pacifist; he hasn't called for unilateral disarmament, which I have always thought Jesus would have wanted.

Christians, by and large, can't really bring themselves to turn the other cheek. They can't resist cutting off that soldier's ear with a sword.

Pacifism is hard. It's hard work!

[EFerrari]

7. As a recovering Catholic, I think His Holiness' policy person

should take the beam out of the Church's eye before it addresses the mote in the public's.

[fshrink]

8. There's another one.

Wooden dick and cardboard slit. Wrap it around any part of your body and enjoy without any risk.

[sonicx]

10. shower with your clothes on...

you might turn yourself on.

[Hardrada]

15. That reminds me

does the Catholic Church have a position on masturbation? Seriously. Or is that a major sin too? Just asking?

[sonicx]

19. i think it is. You can only have sex with the opposite sex while married..

maybe masturbation is allowed with your spouse in the room...

[Mad_Dem_X]

114. No, no, no! Absolutely no masturbation!

For either sex! You can only engage in sex to conceive children...which makes me wonder about people who can't or don't want to have children. :crazy: Oh, that's right: we childfree couples are selfish. LOL

[bunkerbuster1]

133. Is it forbidden to females?

I thought Leviticus was neutral on that. Why would they care? There's no seed-spillin' involved.

[0007]

74. If ya beat your meat so many times it turns into a major sin.

Once in a great while it is just venial sin.

A Venial Sin is an offense that is judged to be minor or committed without deliberate intent and thus does not estrange the soul from the grace of God.

[bvar22]

11. And in a cartoon world,

...the best way to catch a roadrunner is with a stick of dynamite and rocket powered roller skates.

[NC_Nurse]

12. Yeah, celibacy has worked sooo well

for Catholic priests, why doesn't everyone try it? :puke:

[bdot]

54. It's worked for me.

31 years so far and I haven't gotten AIDS. :)

[okieinpain]

13. he's absolutely correct. and the best way to stop murder is for

people to stop killing people. the best way to stop poverty is to give people the resources that they need. the best way to stop polluting our environment is to stop using utilities that pollute our environment.

all of these things are easily accomplished, but bush will get a brain, rove a soul, and chaney a heart before any of those things will happen. so what the fuck do we do in the mean time. dumb ass fundies.

[ashmanonar]

20. omg...

i just had a thought for a photoshop piece...

bush, rove, and cheney in wizard of oz!

:D

[quaoar]

28. Yes, but...

Who's the wicked witch?

Ann Coulter, perhaps?

[ashmanonar]

32. hmmm...

i'll have to think about it...and once i get off my lazy ass, i'll maybe photoshop it.

[quaoar]

56. Or maybe.....

Barbara Bush.

[ashmanonar]

84. yea, probably her. n/t

[HockeyMom]

36. Condi Rice

[TygrBright]

58. No, Barbara Bush, of course...

Matriarch of a whole generation of creepy flying monkeys... Little Bootsie, Little Jebbie...

squickedly,
Bright

[American Tragedy]

75. Sorry to tell ya, but it's been done.

[IndianaGreen]

14. The Spanish Catholic Church thinks that condoms are best!

Then the Fascist Vatican put pressure on their Spanish bishops to do a 180.

When it comes to sex, the Vatican don't know shit!

How about all of the Pope's crocodile tears about the millions that have died of AIDs because they did not use condoms?

About-Face On Condom Use

MADRID, Spain, Jan. 20, 2005

(AP) The Catholic Church in Spain backtracked from a leading bishop's groundbreaking statement in support of condom use to fight the spread of AIDS, saying instead the church still believes artificial contraception is immoral.

A ruling Socialist politician involved in health care issues said she was mystified by the church's about-face in the space of 24 hours. Gay groups said they regretted the church's return to old policy after its "attack of lucidity." A liberal theologian said the church had quickly backpedaled after the Vatican reaffirmed its opposition to condoms.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/19/world/main667730.shtml

[leesa]

16. So if fidelity is the best way to stop AIDS, why are they opposed to gay

marriage?? These people make no sense.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Fidelity can be practiced without benefit of marriage. nt

[sonicx]

46. sex outside of marriage is a sin...

right?

[DemBones DemBones]

61. In many religions, yes, and certainly in Catholicism, BUT it's still true,

whether it's a sin or not, that couples can be sexually faithful to each other without being married.

I'd say it's less sinful to be monogamous but unmarried than to be married but promiscuous -- and less of a public health risk, too!

[yardwork]

70. What about the innocent partners of people who cheat?

A lot of women with HIV got it from unfaithful husbands, in cultures where women have no right to contraception and no right to choose not to have sex with their husbands.

How does the Church tell these innocent women and their innocent children who become infected with HIV in the womb that they aren't allowed to use condoms to protect themselves?

It just makes no sense in any moral, ethical, or rational way.

[leesa]

78. No. Really? nt

[jbpdx]

113. Pope is dopey

Exactly. He should encourage gay marriage and fidelity. He's one messed up hypocrite.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

17. Yes, it would work.

World peace and an end to hunger would be nice, too. Heck, if you're going to dream aim high. :eyes:

I wonder what it must be like to not have to deal with reality? Just to be able to say, reality's so depressing and really gets in the way of my goals. I don't think I'm going to pay attention to it anymore.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Abstinence didn't stop Mary from getting preggers...

...so why should it stop HIV?

:silly:

[IndianaGreen]

25. According to the Gospels, Mary was pregnant before she consented

I won't characterize that for what it is, but the text leaves no other rational interpretation.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. What ARE you talking about? Read the Gospel of St. Luke, Chapter 1,

in which the Angel Gabriel visits the priest Zachary when he is in the temple. Zachary's wife, Elizabeth, is a cousin of Mary's, but Elizabeth is old and barren. Gabriel tells Zachary that Elizabeth will conceive and bear a son, to be named John, and tells him of the things his son will do: "he shall convert many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God."

There's more detail to this story but that's the basics.

When Elizabeth is in her sixth month of this miraculous pregnancy, God sends Gabriel to Nazareth, where he appears to Mary and tells her she will bear a Son.

26
And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary.

(The following is The Annunciation, a famous scene and a favorite of painters. The first sentence he speaks is the first line of the prayer we call the "Hail Mary.")

28
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29
Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
30
And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
31
Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.
32
He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
33
And of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34
And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

35
And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.
37
Because no word shall be impossible with God.
38
And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Verse 38 is, of course, Mary's CONSENT to be impregnated by the Holy Ghost and subsequently to bear God's Son. She is not pregnant when she gives consent. She is a virgin (see Verse 34.)



This is an important chapter and very rich in imagery. The next part of the chapter tells of The Visitation, when Mary visits Elizabeth at her home.


41
And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.
42
And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

(What Elizabeth said there is the second line of the "Hail Mary." In the third line, we simply ask Mary to pray to God for us.)

Mary responds with a beautiful canticle known as "The Magnificat."

46
And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49
Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name.
50
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him
51
He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
52
He hath put down the mighty from their seat and hath exalted the humble.
53
He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54
He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy.
55
As he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

[arikara]

21. Yah, abstinence sure helped all the native kids

that were molested and abused in residential schools here in Canada by the priests. You'd really think that they'd clue in that enforced abstinence is not normal for the human condition.

[hippiechick]

22. So, by logical extension, same-sex marriage should be encouraged.

If his logic is correct, then allowing same-sex marriages would reduce 'hedonistic' habits (since we know married people NEVER fuck around - cough cough), and HIV/AIDS would start to abate.

RIGHT, MR. POPE ??

[Botany]

23. Oldie but a Goodie

You no-a play-a da game
Yo no-a make-a da rules!

:bounce:

[98geoduck]

24. And Dr Frist says stop sweating!

[PurityOfEssence]

26. Meanwhile, on Earth...

People fuck and do drugs. If doing such things is so horrible that they should be death sentences, then traipse on with your bizarre worldview.

Yeah, celibacy and not sharing needles will keep you safe; does that mean that those who don't toe the line deserve to die? There are sensible and healthy ways to slam and fuck yourself silly, and information about them shouldn't be shunted aside out of some retaliatory or clueless view of mankind.

People who are willing to put others at risk just so they can sell them their supernatural fantasy are sick.

[sellitman]

27. Abstinence?

I only wish Barbara Bush had practiced abstinence the night bush the lesser was concieved.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. Oh dear Pope

You are a nice old man and I like you.

It is time to come to reality. The sexual impulse amongst human beings is one of the strongest of all.

How many priests in your religion are infected with Aids?

It seems it is somewhat of a problem.

Dear Pope--no religion will ever convince normal sexual human beings that sex is wrong, or dirty or not to be indulged in. It will impose inordinate and undeserved guilt perhaps, but will not stop one of the most beautiful expressions of the human being --- ever.




http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/catholicpriestsAIDS.html

[BuddhaGirl]

83. good post!

n/t

[AngryOldDem]

129. And therein lies the difference

>>Dear Pope--no religion will ever convince normal sexual human beings that sex is wrong, or dirty or not to be indulged in. It will impose inordinate and undeserved guilt perhaps, but will not stop one of the most beautiful expressions of the human being --- ever.>>

This assumes that human beings are no better than lower animals -- our urges, while natural, are uncontrollable, and we can show no frame of context in which to express these urges. We do not have any self-control, or self-regulation.

I like to think I'm a little higher on the evolutionary plain than that.

Your above definition of sex illustrates nicely the hedonistic attitude that the Pope is criticizing. In effect, you made his point for him.

[Vogon_Glory]

31. Abstinence, Fidelity May Be Best Methods of Prevention, But

Abstinence and fidelity may indeed be the best ways of preventing the spread of HIV and other sexually-transmitted diseases but judging from millennia of evidence concerning the behavior of the human animal, such advice has seldom been followed nearly as well as clerics of the Yahweh-based religions might wish.

Let's keep the condoms and the safe sex available for those souls who aren't willing to wait until after holy matrimony. Most people can't seem to wait to make Whoopie!.

[Stunster]

85. Millenia of evidence

concerning human behavior shows that people are very frequently selfish and greedy and irresponsible.

Suppose the Pope had said this:

"When are Democrats going to wake up to reality and stop calling upon people not to be selfish and greedy? We should be promoting Me-first capitalism, mindless consumerism and, to hell with these stupid rules."

Bad argument?

Yes, it is.

So why use it against the Pope? Or does selfish, greedy, irresponsible sexual behavior not count?

I think one concern the Pope has is that simply promoting condom use is liable to result in more selfish, greedy, irresponsible sexual behavior. And since not all condoms are reliable, and since people are liable not to use condoms consistently or correctly 100% of the time, then such behavior, encouraged by condom promotion, will actually result in less steady progress against AIDS in the long run. Such promotion sends a message that casual sex is ok and not liable to harm you. So people will engage in it more readily, and this will more readily result in risky sexual encounters.

The pope is not saying don't have sex. Sex within committed relationships of love is a good thing. But sex which merely uses another person's body for one's own casual gratification is a form of selfishness and greed. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Pope to distinguish between loving forms and unloving forms of sexual behavior.

Should we have laws that say, "Drive at safe speeds. But if you're going to exceed those speeds, then drive a sturdier car"? People who die or are severely injured because they insisted on speeding can't reasonably plead "Society should have provided me with a sturdier vehicle."

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[bemildred]

45. There is nothing either bigoted or nonsensical about disliking

the Catholic Church. Opposition to the church goes back hundreds of
years and I have sterling intellectual company. I suggest you ignore
me if you find my opinions disorienting.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Sterling intellectual company like Christopher Hitchens? Lots of

tarnish on him and many of those sterling anti-Catholic bigots I've read. You can find sterling intellectual company among anti-Semites, too, by the way.

[bemildred]

51. I was thinking more Martin Luther, Voltaire, that sort of thing.

The reformation, Deists, Quakers, free-thinkers, and so on.
Bertrand Russell maybe, some other Brits. I don't like Hitchens
at all.

Edit: Einstein.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

66. Delete

[kevin881]

35. sorry but...

what the hell does the pope know about sex and AIDS anyhow.

[d.l.Green]

37. He gets off on the confessions....

er, God tells him. Uh, it encourages donations, er, distracts from a real message... keeps the sheeple in check.

[Bariztr]

38. Hypocrisy thy name is Pope

Condoms are not permitted either outside or inside of a marriage. So therefore we can minister to the sick but not do a FUCKING thing to prevent it?! Please, God, or whatever, strike these fools dead. There is no hope for them any longer.

Here's a hypothetical, your marriage partner is infected through a blood transfusion with HIV/AIDS, what are you to do? Well according to His Dopiness you can either abstain or have sex without a condom and get infected yourself!

This kind of morality is is sickening!

[DemBones DemBones]

44. Not as sickening as the distortions and bigotry in this thread. nt

[w4rma]

39. Fantasy land. They live in fantasy land. In the real world, people *will*

have sex whether you tell them they can or not.

Prohibition didn't work and you can darn well be assured that policing sex won't work, either.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. It is an undeniable FACT that if all relationships were monogamous, with

complete sexual fidelity from both partners, and if all people abstained from sex until they met the person they wanted to make a lifetime commitment, too, there would be NO spread of STDs or AIDS. It's a FACT that "immoral and hedonistic lifestyles" contributed to the spread of HIV and AIDS.

The pope is CORRECT in his statement. He is calling on people to rise above their baser animal instincts, use their brains, and practice self-discipline.

Most people won't do that so of course it won't work. But it WOULD work if everyone agreed to follow those guidelines.

John Paul II, like any religious leader, calls on us to be better people and to care about others as well as ourselves. It's his job. Take that into consideration and perhaps you won't get ulcers from freaking out every time he says something that doesn't suit you. After all, you're not being forced to live in accordance with Catholic teachings.

If you want to worry about someone who could really control your life some day, worry about the Christian Reconstructionists or Dominionists.

[sonicx]

50. Of fidelity is the best, but why discourage condom use?

You said yourself that people aren't going to practice self-discipline. If the pope is advocating something that won't work, what good is he doing on this issue?

[DemBones DemBones]

65. Well, I disagree with him about condoms, but I'm not

speaking for the Roman Catholic Church and he is, so he has to stick to Church teaching that doesn't allow contraceptives.

John Paul II is no dummy so we can be sure he understands the difference between using condoms to prevent pregnancy and using them to prevent diseases being spread. It's sort of a Catch 22: when is a condom not a contraceptive? He surely sees that condoms could help prevent the spread of disease, thereby doing a good thing, but there's no way that a condom used in heterosexual intercourse doesn't also prevent conception and, in Catholic teaching, that's a sin. (Protestants used to consider it a sin, too, as I explained elsewhere in this thread.)

What good is he doing? He's urging people to a high level of unselfish behavior. His words will be offset by those of public health officials, who'll continue to tell people to use condoms.

If people aimed for abstinence and fidelity, but used condoms regularly if they strayed, it would surely be more effective than using condoms but having sex with a large multiple of partners, don't you think? The more partners you have, the more possibilities of having a partner with HIV or an STD.

[phasev]

71. uhmm..

like we should listen to some ailing old fart who has never gotten laid in his entire life.

[MadisonProgressive]

91. Sure it would work if we were all robots - but he are human beings

Human beings are not perfect and the Pope makes no allowance for that. I personally think he's a horses ass.

[d.l.Green]

120. Yup, we're not forced to live in accordance with Catholic teachings-

but we are forced to live with the repercussions of such a highly regarded cult. I think the general concensus here is not his ridiculous opinions but which ones suit the current political situation, not ones that would actually help the needy and forgotten (in my mind the only real reason for existence of such a cult). In *'s unbalanced state of affairs highly favoring the rich and trashing the poor and middle class, it sure is hypocritical for the pope to jump on the nonsensical and harmless "homosexual agenda" issue. Maybe he's been spending too much time in front of the TV watching Spongebob Squarepants to realize that there's a real world out there.

Oh, and BTW, it has yet to be proven that some "hedonistic and immoral lifestyles"(under whose judgement?) has anything to do with "aids/hiv". It is more an invention of such christian cults. I guess that the young children who supposedly have it must have some overage of "original sin" in their blood. Or maybe, as the Catholic hospitals in NYC(that we know of), are using foster children as guinea pigs to prove some vicious point...

[PinkTiger]

49. Yes and honesty will stop stealing

and so on and so on.

What crap. If we all would just go along, we could erradicate war, and if everybody would just share, we could nix poverty and famine.

It just ain't gonna happen.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. Yes, honesty would stop stealing, if everyone agreed. It's not "crap."

It's idealism. Sad to see so little of it here.

It does not require everyone to practice abstinence/ fidelity to dramatically decrease the spread of HIV and STDs, just a significant portion of the population. It also does not require total abstinence / fidelity; a mere reduction in promiscuity could make a significant difference.

Imperfect, yes, but so are condoms.

[quaoar]

53. What's wrong with condoms anyway?

Why is the church opposed to the? Just doesn't make any theological sense.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. They're contraceptive devices and the Church doesn't approve of

any contraception. Catholics are only allowed to use Natural Family Planning (NFP), which involves careful charting of the woman's basal temperature in order to calculate the days when it is safe to have sex without risk of pregnancy. During her fertile days, the couple has to avoid intercourse or risk pregnancy. It's supposed to be more effective than the old rhythm method, though based on the same principles.

Many Catholics do use contraceptives now but others claim NFP is the best thing they ever did, that it heightens their sexuality and improves their relationship. An earlier pregnancy that ended in disaster had ended my childbearing days before I became Catholic, so I can't give you a personal take on it. I do know people who've been happy using it and it's worked for them.

Did you know that Protestant churches disapproved of contraception for many years? It's because of the Bible story of Onan, if you know about that. The Episcopal Church finally approved of contraception in the 1930s and that was quite controversial. Yet people were using contraceptives long before -- my Epicopalian grandmother was married in 1915 and she told me she always used a diaphragm, except, of course, when she wanted a baby. She said she "never had a worry" using her diaphragm.

[quaoar]

64. Yes, but why?

I understand that the church has always prohibited contraceptives, but what is the theological basis of banning contraceptives?

[DemBones DemBones]

67. Oh, it's about Onan. Onan had a brother who died and

according to Jewish law, he was supposed to then marry his brother's widow. But Onan didn't want to have sex with her. So God told Onan "Get in that tent and do it!" (Actually, he told him to "go in to her" as I recall; haven't read this scripture lately.) So Onan went in her tent, but he "spilled his seed on the ground." And God killed Onan. Just like that.

That's, as far as I know, the main teaching used by any Christian denominations to condemn contraception and/or masturbation.

Here's the thing, though: was Onan's sin the act by which he "spilled his seed on the ground" OR was it the fact that he defied a direct order from God?

Take the second argument to its logical conclusion and it could mean an end to Christian bans on contraception and/or masturbation.

I read an article about this very thing back in 1964 and the priest who wrote it did an excellent job of bolstering his argument with other theological reasoning. But just the simple argument makes a lot of sense, I think. Can there be any sin bigger than disobeying a command from God? God gave his people the 10 Commandments to keep them straight and one of them is about loving and respecting God. Onan was not respectful to God, he disobeyed him. I think his disobedience was the reason God killed him.

Is that clear? It's late so I don't know! ;-)

[pschoeb]

69. Onan's death was due to greed and disobeying god

Why was the crime greed? Easy he was supposed to supply a son to his brother's widow as she had no son by her husband before he died. At that time women had no ability to inherit property, so if she had no son Onan would inherit his brother's property. Also this was a levirate marriage because the husband's family still maintained reproductive rights over the woman, she had no choice but to be her brother's wife. So Onan's plan was to do a little coitus interuptus(he did not masturbate), as to not father a child, and therefore keep all of his brother's property for himself.

To be honest everything in this story is terribly immoral, including god killing Onan. The coitus interuptus act by itself(without the greed) is the only act that's not immoral.

Technically he did obey god, as I think god only told him to go in her, which he did technically comply with.

[DemBones DemBones]

103. Thanks for all the details! I haven't studied this in years so

couldn't recall them. It's my view that God recognized that though Onan technically obeyed, he used coitus interruptus to serve his greed. (Either coitus interruptus or masturbation before intercourse -- I don't think it's clear from the verse so perhaps that's why this is considered a proof that God hates masturbation. What I think God hates is greed and disobedience.

I have hopes that a future pope will teach that our interpretation is correct and that the Church has been mistaken about prohibiting contraception. Some think that because the Pill works with the rhythms of fertility, Pope Paul almost approved it. Perhaps the next pontiff will, and let's hope for approval of condoms as a health device as well.

[d.l.Green]

122. My interpretation of this silly passage is

that his brother's widow was not arousing to him (and I thought it was some Commandment that forbids this type of coveting anyway?) And this is a god you believe in? One who kills a man for "spilling his seed on the ground"? - whatever the reason. And with that idiotic reasoning why the hell has this god not killed * and his lying murdering minions? Or those who speak in his name for their own political agendas? Or even those nasty priests who so conveniently took advantage of the trust of their parishoners and raped their little boys and girls? Oh, they didn't live in Old Testament times, it's all in the era... yikes!

[Stunster]

127. There's no theological basis for banning contraception

The argument is rather to do with a particular understanding of morality

Morality enjoins that we should aim for morally good states of affairs.

Among morally good states of affairs, one of the best is being open to loving and being loved as much as possible.

For some people, but not for all people, their potential for loving and being loved will best be fulfilled, in part, through procreating and parenting children---that is, for some people, but not for all, they become more fully loving and beloved in the process of begetting and parenting children.

For some people, this potential for loving and being loved through procreation and parenting will be maximized if they have one child. For others, it will be two, or three, or four, or five, or six, or maybe some higher number of children. For each person whose potential for loving ought to be realized through parenting, there will be an ideal number of children that that person can responsibly procreate, and lovingly parent. Hence, that's the number of children they ought to procreate and lovingly parent.

To selfishly place undue limits on one's potential for loving and being loved by having fewer children (so that, for example, one can have two houses, or two cars, or more expensive vacations) is wrong, because it involves deliberately aiming for a less morally good state of affairs than one responsibly can aim for.

So contraception may be wrong if it's practised for selfish reasons.

But what if one already has procreated and is lovingly parenting the ideal number of children that realizes your particular potential for loving and being loved inherent in parenting? Why would contraception be wrong thereafter, or why it would be wrong to use it to responsibly space the number of births up to that point?

I think the argument gets very murky at this point. Insofar as there is an argument, it's that making love is meant to be a gift of the whole person in openness to one's potential for loving and being loved by one's spouse, and to the potential loving, procreative fruits of one's sexual union with one's spouse. And so even if you both think that you've both reached the ideal number of kids, or that you need to wait longer before having another kid, you should be open to that possibility happening in the present act of lovemaking, otherwise that act is not fully loving. Full lovingness in lovemaking has to be open to the full potential consequences of the act, otherwise it is implicitly restrictive of one's procreative and parental self-gift.

And so the Church advises that the responsible spacing and limiting of births should not be practised by deliberately restricting the potential in any given act of lovemaking for generating further loving consequences (via procreation and parenting), but rather through spacing the acts of lovemaking themselves (to coincide with the natural cycle of infertility).

The criticism of this teaching is that it focuses on the love inherent in parenting and procreating at the expense of the love inherent in the sexual union and intimacy of the spouses. Many couples don't mind not practising contraception, and being open to the loving potential inherent in procreating and parenting in a reasonable responsible way----but they don't see why all other times of lovemaking should have this as the primary focus. Sex is not meant just for having babies. It's also meant to foster the intimacy of the couple, and surely that can and does and ought to happen far more frequently in any marriage than just on those occasions when the couple wishes to realize their procreative and parental intent.

Does following the natural cycle of infertility in order to balance the loving potential inherent in procreating and parenting with the loving potential inherent in spousal sexual intimacy grant enough scope to the latter potential? The lived experience of many married couples tends to suggest that it doesn't always do. Though some couples use Natural Family Planning with great joy and success in realizing the balance, it appears that many couples find it not joyful or successful, but a source of tension, unhappiness, and unanticipated pregnancy.

I think the Vatican stance on the issue proceeds from a highly idealized and highly idealistic concept of how to balance the love involved in sexual intimacy with the love involved in procreation and parenting, and because contraception can lend itself to a selfish rejection of the latter kind of love, it throws the baby, not out, but rather in with the bathwater.

But whether one uses Natural Family Planning or contraceptives, there is a reasonable moral case to be made for those who are called to love through parenting not to reject that call or unduly limit it for self-centred reasons.

[MadisonProgressive]

93. Natural Family Planning = The Rhythm Method

The most unreliable form of birth control. But it is still a method of contraception, so what does he have against other methods that are much more effective AND can prevent disease transmission?

[DemBones DemBones]

104. I think I covered your questions in my post, #60, which you

obviously read. I'll just add that NFP is said to be a vast improvement over the old rhythm method, though obviously based on the same principles. Whether this is so or not, I can't personally attest, but others claim it's true, and say it has enriched their marriage as well as enabled them to avoid unwanted pregnancies and schedule the ones they do want. I'd certainly take the NFP classes if I were still able to have children.

No birth control method works well unless it is practiced/used well. You have to take the Pill every day (and use condoms and/or foam if you have to take antibiotics sinced they can cause the Pill not to work), you have to insert the diaphragm properly, checking it for holes in advance, every time you have sex, etc.

[MadisonProgressive]

119. What kind of birth control to you use the other 3 weeks?

[MadisonProgressive]

92. But everyone will not agree - therefore it IS CRAP.

[DemBones DemBones]

105. Then humanity is so hopelessly flawed that we will never

be able to live in peace and will destroy our planet and ourselves.

Personally I'd rather take a more idealistic approach and make as much of it into reality as possible.


Your approach seems to be "Just give everyone condoms" but that's CRAP since we know everyone won't use condoms.

[d.l.Green]

125. With that logic then your approach is that everyone will use

Natural Family Planning?

Oh, and we are bound to destroy the planet and ourselves not partially as the result of overpopulation or the church's silence on environmental issues? Love your idealism...

[MadisonProgressive]

130. That is not my approach

My approach is to live and let live. I don't stick my nose into other peoples business and I don't expect them to stick their nose in mine. I believe in science, evolution, and the golden rule. I believe that people that attempt to eliminate disease and unwanted pregnancy by utilizing the best modern methods are doing a GOOD thing.

If you don't agree with that then we might as well just agree to disagree.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guns Aximbo]

57. how do you stop pedophiles?

[DemBones DemBones]

63. You lock them up when you catch them and you keep them away from

children. After they're out of prison, using electric monitoring anklets would work, I'd think. Pedophiles can't be cured, we're told, so we have to separate them from the children they want to prey on.

The pope wasn't talking about sexual deviants, of course, but society's goal should be to prevent them from engaging in deviant "sex" with children -- sort of an enforced abstinence -- since we know they can't or won't control themselves. Only normal people can succeed at abstinence and fidelity.

It's also up to normal people to watch out for sexual deviants and prevent them from molesting children.

[Guns Aximbo]

89. he should stay away from issues he has no practical

experience with. Pedophelia, however, is an issue I'm sure he has HANDS ON experience with.

[TygrBright]

59. Yeh, this suggestion will work...

....the day they start distributing magic wands to turn human beings into saints.

There's nothing at all wrong with the Church pointing out (and encouraging) their idealistic views of the best way to prevent AIDS. Holding up the highest standard is something that a religious leader should do.

But they serve their faithful very ill if they attempt to enforce what is an unrealistically high standard, without giving their faithful any other options, even "lesser" or "inferior" options like, well, using condoms...

Compassion and mercy were among the primary teachings of Christ, after all. He pointed out that it is the attempt to be better than we are, rather than the achievement, that counts. And he did not condemn the woman taken in sin. He did not demand that she die for her sin.

Attempting to prevent people from using an effective means of preventing AIDS/HIV is the equivalent of saying that it's okay for people to be condemned to death because of their sin.

And I think it's disgusting.

disillusionedly,

Bright

[DemBones DemBones]

68. You make good points and I'm very concerned about

the affected lives, too. I hope you'll read my posts just above yours, about contraceptives, Onan, the Church, etc., because I think I've discussed some of your concerns. I'm afraid the bottom line is that many people will die from AIDS by not trusting medical advice, no matter what anyone says. I doubt those who are using condoms will stop because of the pope's words and I pray that I'm right about this. I think his advice can be helpful, though I hope people will still use condoms, even though they aim for abstinence and fidelity.

A major problem with AIDS ia that many people don't trust doctors, many young people don't trust adults, and many people fall for all sort of outlandish "cures" rather than trusting medical advice. No doubt you know about the men in Africa who have been told (by whom, I'm not sure) that sex with a virgin will cure them of AIDS. In order to be sure they have a guaranteed virgin, these AIDS patience rape female infants and toddlers. And, of course, the girls then become infected.

:puke:

Hope to discuss more with you, Tygr.

[TygrBright]

76. One huge problem with the injunction...

...of the faithful to rely exclusively on abstinence and fidelity is that it denies married people who may very well be faithful the opportunity to protect themselves from catching a fatal disease transmitted by an unfaithful partner... or even a partner who has been faithful since marriage but who was infected prior to marriage.

Or even a partner who has never been unfaithful or engaged in extra-marital sex, but who were themselves infected by a previous spouse.

One of the largest problems in Africa (where the disease is frighteningly both epidemic AND endemic) is transmission between married partners. And the Catholic missionaries there are doing nothing to stem the spread of the disease except preaching abstinence and fidelity? It's grotesquely irresponsible, cruel, and I hope to hell God calls the leadership of the Church to account for their blithe assumptions that they are only responsible for pointing out how to be perfect.

Personally, I think Christ had other things in mind for those he entrusted to carry forth his teachings and his work-- like works of mercy, and compassion. He reminded his followers that tithing mint and cumin and dill while ignoring the needs of the unfortunate was NOT the will of God.

Frankly, I think the Church's obsession with regulating sex is revolting, in the face of the myriad and horrible other problems of man's inhumanity to man. I applaud their stance on the death penalty and think JP2 was right on in condemning wars of choice (vis Iraq,) but the suppression of the Liberation Theology movement within the Church has done much to damage its credibility among the millions of poor and oppressed in South America. What's up with THAT, for Christ's sake?

I do not agree with, but understand their stance on abortion-- at least it is consistent (though I'm not at all sure it's theologically sound.) But having made that stand, they do not take the next step--which would be to put as much emphasis on offering women at risk of, or suffering through unwanted pregnancies other VIABLE options. That would include putting AT LEAST as much effort into lobbying the US government for safety net programs to support the women and children involved as they spend trying to outlaw abortion.

Their sense of proportion is screwed up all to hell. The Church leadership spends more time and effort litmus-testing candidates for episcopal office to keep the dreaded taint of liberalism at bay than seeking out those within the Church who are truly connecting with the faithful and truly advancing the works of justice, mercy, and compassion. They strain at gnats like condom use and swallow camels like right-wing fascist elites who use the Church as a tool to keep the proles in line.

They beat their breasts and moan about the terrible prejudice stirred up against their clergy by "a few bad apples," but they do nothing to alter the fundamental assumptions of the clerical role (and I'm talking about the administrative and secular responsibilities, not the sacramental nature of ordination and the religious duties attached thereto) that give rise to the problem. They give lip service to the concept of liberating women in developing countries from coercive cultural traditions, and then perpetuate appalling carelessness in how they recruit and train and advance their male clergy in those countries so that they end up with priests and bishops that perpetuate, rather than alleviate, the problems.

It occasionally happens that the Conclave chooses a Pope based on their assumptions about his views and philosophies, and then are confounded when (in their own parlance,) "the Holy Spirit" actuates the new Pope in totally unforeseen directions. Given how diligently JP2 and the Neanderthal wing of the College have been working to pack the house with troglodytes intent on perpetuating the Church's descent back into Medievalism, I'm sure they are hoping that they'll end up with some proto-fascist like Ratzinger or one of his henchmen. I just hope the Holy Spirit has a big, fat, unwelcome surprise in for them.

The Church has such a huge potential moral power to promote justice and mercy and peace in the world. Seeing it use that power to peer into people's bedrooms and tithe mint and cumin and dill simply enrages me. I bet it irritates Christ, too... but then, that's nothing new. Humanity has been using his name to perpetrate abominations ever since he left.

polemically,
Bright

[d.l.Green]

128. It's not that people don't trust doctors, it's that people

don't trust themselves to make their own decisions and do their own research. Like religious fanatics they put their entire faith in the advice of someone who does not have their own well being in mind. As with your narrow and inflexible interpretation of the Bible you also certainly seem to have a narrow and misinformed view of "aids/hiv".

[stepnw1f]

62. The Lamest, Most Ineffectual Advice

Just wear a fuckin condom, mate. :evilgrin:

[Azathoth]

72. Let's go easy on the Pope. He's right.

The only sure-fire way to stop the sexual transmission of AIDS is abstinence.

Just like the only sure-fire way to avoid being in an automobile accident is to never get in a car.

Both are technically correct, just completely impractical.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MHalblaub]

73. That advice is for Saints

and for the rest of us sinners:

PLEASE USE CONDOMS


Reminds me on the results of Bush style sex education within Texas:

Sex, lies and pregnant teenagers.

[Flammable Materials]

77. Pope: "Eating food best way to avoid death by starvation" n/t

[napi21]

80. He's right, of course. He is ignoring those who aren't Catholic, and

Catholics who rationalize this theory away.

I've always believed the answer to abortion, the condom issue, unwed pregnancy and aids was keeping your pants on!

The problem is, like it or not, lots of people in the world just don't do it!

It's similar to the proposals to demand drug treatment programs instead of incarceration. The best wqay to eliminate drug problems is simply not to use any! Lots of people don't do that either.

If we recognize that there is a problem, we need to get solutions that are not just advice, but acceptable fixes.

[emad]

dupe

..

[emad]

81. New Papal "Fidelity" contraceptive, featuring rhythm method option

PLAY ONCE and all your sperm dries up....or SHE immediately stops ovulating...

[Spazito]

82. As in anything else, let those who want to follow the pope, do so....

the Catholic church is losing it followers and the number of those entering the priesthood is also down because of the hypocrisy of the above statement.

As a former practicing Catholic, the abuse by priests of their congregants and the lack of action by the Vatican for many years except to move the pedophiles and rapists from one parish to another until it couldn't be hid any longer was the breaking point for me.

Oh, and those still following the Vatican, don't you dare groan in pleasure during intercourse because it is only for pro-creation, not enjoyment. I can't help but wonder how the priests that abused little boys thought they were aiding the church in it's pro-creation tenet?

[MadisonProgressive]

94. If it's only for conception, then I take it blow jobs are out?

[Spazito]

96. LOL!

Did a search on the Vatican website for blow job, came up with nada so it must be okay!

[DemBones DemBones]

106. Not at all. I read a book on Catholic sexuality about ten years ago,

a book written by a bishop, in which he said oral sex was a way to have sex during a woman's fertile period without conceiving a child. For a bishop, he said a lot of other things that surprised me.

[MadisonProgressive]

118. I thought you could only have sex for the purpose of conception?

[DemBones DemBones]

107. I share your disgust at the priests who seduced teens or raped young boys

and at the bishops who enabled their crimes. Knowing that this happens in other churches, in schools, and in scouting helps me to deal with it, though I'd certainly like to give a few of those despicable molesters -- and the enablers-- a piece of my mind.

I'm sorry that the scandal drove you away from the Church, as I'm sure it did others. I hope you are happier now.

Many of us chose to stay and people continue to join the Church as they always have (between 700 and 1000 adult converts every year in the Atlanta archdiocese, for example.) We also have enough men studying to be priests for the archdiocese that we face no shortage, largely due to a good vocations program, I suppose. The Church will go on, losing some members, gaining others, changing some but remaining essentially the same -- but never allowing such outrages again, we hope.

I wish that you could read the book on Catholic sexuality that I read about ten years ago. I was just describing it in another post. It was written by a bishop but to my surprise he talked approvingly about oral sex for married couples and about pleasure in the sexual relationship. I'm sure he mentioned being open to the possibility of sex resulting in children but he also discussed NFP, oral sex during the woman's fertile period, etc. And the book had the imprimatur. The times are changing, perhaps. I do hope the next pope "legalizes" contraception.

Peace.

[Spazito]

108. I appreciate your thoughtful response

To your question of being happier, the answer is yes, much more so. I am glad the church is recognizing the times are changing and when the church makes full restitution for those they have harmed without being forced by the courts to do so, I will believe they really are changing. I carry my faith with me, I no longer carry the church with me, it is called right of conscience. I, too, hope the next pope "legalizes" contraception but, unfortunately, the leading contender, according to the news reports is even more "traditional" than the current Pope.

[RPM]

86. I guess it has worked for him

but for the rest of us who use our penises for more than just peeing.... not so much

[JVS]

87. Technically true, but insufficient strategy in and of itself

You can be the best goalie in the world and not stop be able to stop a team from scoring single-handedly. This is a case where you have the best method and you also need other back-up methods to assist.

[MadisonProgressive]

95. Question for the religiously aware...

Does the Bible rail against contraception, or is this just the Pope's bugaboo?

[DemBones DemBones]

109. Go back to post #49 and read down through #105 and

you'll get the story on what the Bible says and more.

[MadisonProgressive]

116. You can't answer a simple question?

I'm supposed to go read 50 posts? No thanks, and may God bless.

[IndianaGreen]

97. The Pope is the Supreme Pontiff of Ignorance when it comes to AIDS

Someone tell that old man that the majority of global AIDS cases involved married hetero couples and their children, with some countries in Africa having a significant portion of the population already infected. The Pope is promoting genocide with his idiotic anti-condom position for it is the Catholic Church that is throwing roadblocks to preventing the spread of AIDS. What a pathetic example of religion being the drug for the masses!

[shrike]

99. Technically true

In the same way that abstinence and sterilization are 100 percent effective in preventing pregnancy.

[grace0418]

101. And the award for most naive and ignorant solution goes to...

...the Pope!

What a fabulous idea! I bet no one has ever thought of that possibility! Because of course in the real world women are always treated with respect. They're never forced into having unprotected sex, especially not in third world countries where AIDS is running rampant. And all these thirld world countries also have excellent, free health care in every village with all the sterile needles and instruments and pristine blood supplies that any doctor could ever want! Even in the United States, everyone has access to free health care, comprehensive sex education, and no one ever gets raped.

Gosh Your Holiness, what would we ever do without your BRILLIANT observations!

[arwalden]

102. Intelligence And Compassion Are Not Requirements For His Job.

[DemBones DemBones]

111. Actually, they are, but giving in to public pressure is not in his

job description! ;-)

[arwalden]

112. How Revealing That The Public Must "Pressure" The Pope To Be Compassionate

... and how tragically sad.

I guess all that oppulence affects one's ability to think clearly. Being so luxuriously insulated from REAL LIFE makes it easier to promote the cruelty of antique and regressive policies.

Public pressure indeed. Oh brother! :eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

110. It's the ideal solution and I feel sure he is smart enough to know

how difficult it is to carry out in the less-than-ideal world. Still, he calls on us to act unselfishly, to care for others' well-being, etc. If everyone listened, it would work.

And it's NOT his job to say "Do whatever you feel like doing."

[grace0418]

117. It may not be his job to say

"Do whatever you feel like doing" but what good does it do to make useless, obvious proclamations? Is that his job?

Anybody with half a brain knows that not having sex will help slow (but not completely stop) the spread of AIDS but it doesn't solve anything. If he'd said "Starvation can be solved by eating" would you be defending that statement? No, because it doesn't help anything. It's a waste of breath. And if he's smart enough to know better, why did he say it?

How about if he addressed the politics, sexual inequality and human rights issues that cause people to contract and die of AIDS because of poverty, lack of education, forced and/or unprotected sex, and poor health care? How about if he acknowledged that the sex drive is one of the most powerful and primal human needs, and while he may be able to abstain, most people cannot? Clearly, based on the scandals the Catholic priesthood has endured, even supposedly abstinant priests often have trouble with this. Not to mention the fact that other cultures have different views about sexuality and monogamy.

What we need are real-life solutions. Maybe something in between "Do whatever you feel like doing" and "Stop having sex."

[Cuban_Liberal]

115. Literally and scientifically true. n/t

[indepat]

121. And if everybody always acted properly, the need for police and military

would be scant.

[Canuckistanian]

123. You no play-a da game, you no make-a da rules.....

A quote I heard from an Italian woman...

[WoodrowFan]

124. damn

I was gonna post that.

[Spazito]

126. LOL Truth in a nutshell!

Thanks for the post!

:D

[aikido15]

131. Fuck the Pope!

really, who cares what he says?

[Orsino]

134. Jesus says lots of sex best way to stop Pope

film at 11