Culture, U.S. Law Clash Over Teen Marriage

[Rose Siding]

FARGO, N.D. -- The tradition of Romani girls marrying as young as 14 years old is so important for some immigrant families here that they would rather break the law than change their ways.

This past year at least two new brides quit school in West Fargo once they turned 16, one teacher said. Another girl married in 2003 when she was 15; within months she was carrying a child for her 20-year-old husband.

At the center of the cases is the Romani culture, brought here in recent years by immigrants from the Balkan region, people mostly from Bosnia or Albania. Though the practice often skirts the law here, the tradition of Romani girls marrying in their teens is for some families so important they resist changing their ways.
...
...Part of the deal is a dowry from the boy's family to the girls' parents.

In one case Cass County Social Services discovered, the price was $20,000, said Rick VanCamp, a supervisor in child protection services.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-young-wives,0,5845870.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[Warpy]

1. Some cultures are like that, arraged marriages as

soon as the girl hits menarche. This sort of thing has served these cultures well for a very long time. Eventually, as they assimilate a little more, they may see that an alternative of waiting until the girls are through school would suit as well. It's hard to draw a firm line in such cases, since the girls themselves expect it, usually with anticipation and excitement, especially if the groom is young.

More troubling are some of the Romani groups that marry girls off before menarche, some as young as nine or ten. This also happens among some groups from Islamic countries, although not as frequently. They're more apt to have engagements young, then marriage after menarche.

Remember, western countries used to do this, as well. The practice of waiting until a girl hits the legal age of 18 is quite recent, mostly within the last 40 years or so. Even I remember married classmates starting in my junior year of high school. Late marriage and virgin brides are generally mutually exclusive cultural phenomena, though, even with the odd exception. Marriage as early as possible for girls is commonest in cultures that most prize virginity.

What I suppose is that the law should be a little less rigid when it concerns willing participants in cultural traditions. Marriage is a crapshoot, and even waiting until your mid twenties and choosing your own spouse is no guarantee of success.

It's one hell of a tough call, though.

[AndyTiedye]

2. and the Couple Being Married Have No Say In It At All

[Redstone]

3. I don't think it's a tough call

1) "Part of their culture" or not, I do not believe that forced marriage is any different from indentured servitude or slavery.

2) We have laws in this country. Culture or not, if you live here, you should obey our laws.

2A) Statement #2 does not indicate jingoism on my part. If you live in any country (not just America), you should obey the laws of that country.


Redstone

[yinkaafrica]

10. 20,000 for a fifteen year old girl? Sounds like slavery to me.

You are right, this must be stopped.

[Stuckinthebush]

4. What is our duty to the 14 year old girls?

Yes, their culture says it is OK to sell them into marriage at 14, however, we now know that a 14 year old is not psychologically prepared for such an experience. Confound the marriage with living in a society that says 14 year olds are children and that sex with 14 year old children is against the law, and you have a serious problem.

Our first duty is to the child, our second duty is to respect for cultural differences. Certain cultural traditions, if harmful to an individual, should be discontinued. This is one. It serves no purpose to maintaining the culture in question.

[Sgent]

5. Not sure how I feel...

In Mississippi (big suprise) its still legal to marry at 14 with the parent's permission. I know many couples who were married young, and they have lived a fulfilling life, and were very happy with each other, and they made the decision (not the parents).

That being said, obviously most 14 year olds are not ready to make this type of decision....

[Stuckinthebush]

6. For every one happy 14 year old marriage story

There are many, many unhappy ones.

A 14 year old is a child.

[gorbal]

13. In our culture

People forget that in MANY other cultures 14 year olds are considered adults.

But I don't think age should be the issue so much as consent-if they are being forced into such an arrangement it should be stopped.

[jdj]

14. if you are in a family situation that arranges marriages you

are going to be too scared to admit it if a forced marriage. So that point is moot.

[American Tragedy]

20. Once again, 14 year olds generally cannot make an informed decision

on something like that. Under different circumstances, I might have been convinced to marry early, but I know that I would have lived to regret it. I'm not the same person that I was six years ago, and I'm still trying to figure out what direction I want to take my life.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

23. Excellent points AT

We have an age of consent in this country and cultural norms must bow to that for the good of the young people involved.

[slackmaster]

9. Most 24-year-olds aren't ready for marriage

:nuke:

[happyslug]

12. ???????? Where do you get your information????

Recently they was a report on the Increase in the average age of newlyweds. The base year used was 1960. Why 1960? 1960 was the year where the average age of newlyweds was the LOWEST in the 20th Century (Average age for women, 20.5, for men, 22.5). In 1900 the averages had been 26 for men and 22 for women. In 2000 the numbers were 26.5 for men and 25.1 for women. Thus men have FINALLY reached the same age their married in 1900, while women are approaching the same number for men in 1900 (and exceeding the number for women by only three years).

In the colonial period such "late marriages" i.e. AFTER both parties turned 21 was the norm (Thus until the 1970s if someone under 21 wanted to marry they had to have their parent's permission OR permission of the Court). While it was LEGAL to marry at younger ages, it was NOT considered Normal (Unlike the conception that marrying young was "Normal" before the 1970s).

For some of the Statistics see:
http://www.bgsu.edu/organizations/cfdr/ohiopop/opn8.pdf#search='US%20Statistics%20Average%20age%20to%20marry%2019002000'

For more on marriages here are some interesting web sites, I do not agree with all of their points of view but they give you are start as to the issue of at what age people marry and used to marry:
http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenmarriage.htm

http://www.dfwx.com/medieval_cult.html

[jdj]

17. thanks for that.

I only have one relative I know that married as a minor, at 13 and that was because her older sister had gotten pregnant out of "wedlock" and her parents saw to it that it didn't happen with the other two daugthers.

I never met her but she is quoted in our family as saying of her husband (who was in his thirties) that "they called me in from playing with my dolls to meet that old man."

It's really heartbreaking.

[happyslug]

27. The big question is why the drop and than the increase in the 20th Century

In my opinion, the reason for the drop was High School. In 1900 most men and women only graduated the 8th grade. Most than went into the work force. Since the only real social organization that existed was the Church men and women would meet at various Church Functions. Since both were working during their teen years (often 10-12 hours per day) Courtship was over a long time period (A Secondary factor is the First Census that shows more people living in Urban area than Rural Areas was 1920, given the lack of Automobiles prior to 1920 such rural living can explain the high age of marriage in 1900 and the subsequent drop in age levels, but I believe the High School theory is the better theory).

High Schools started after the Civil War (1860-1865). Most "Collages" prior to 1860 would be the equivalent of today's High School (Without the Vocational aspects of High School and greater emphasis on the Classics including learning Latin and Greek). What we American call a High School is a blend of the Old Prussian Gymnasium (School to prepare someone for College) crossed with Vocational Training School (With a strong sense of Anti-Communism thrown in, to many people prior to 1900 were reading the wrong books and getting the "wrong" education by their self-education).

Collages changed from 1860 to 1900. In 1860 Collages were only taking Grade School graduates (i.e 8th grade graduates) by 1900 most collages had re-defined themselves as taking in High School Graduates only.

The introduction of High Schools changed society in many ways beside education. The primary non-educational change caused by the introduction of High Schools is the separation of teenagers from adults. Prior to 1900 it was common for almost all teenagers to work with adults at adult jobs. Teenagers learned to work with adults. With High Schools teenagers were isolated from adults (other than their teachers) so almost all social interaction were with other teenagers. This emphasis looking for a mate which is what most teenagers have done throughout history. When teenagers worked with adults this "mating" was still important to the teenager but was only PART of their lives. The main thrust of their life was earning a living AND working with adults.

Notice I said WORKING WITH ADULTS not working under Adult supervision. There is a difference. Working with an adult supervisor is like working with a teacher, you do as you are told, your level of interaction is limited. On the other hand Working with someone, you may be given advice on how to do something, but your prospective is often as valid as the older people you work with. This is the Difference I am trying to point out, the difference between working with an adult as an equal as opposed to as a student of the Adult.

Given this change, adult "Control" over teenager declined. Instead of being told to wait till both of you had sufficient income and savings to start a family, the teenagers were encouraged to mate and than marry upon graduation. Instead of told to work as teenagers, the teenagers where told to date. All of this lead to the decrease in the average age of marriage from 1900 till 1960.

What happened in the 1960s to reverse the decline in average marriage age? The answer is that more and more people where going to Collage. With Collage teenagers had four more years to find and mate. Interaction with adults were again limited but given the vast number of Veterans in Collage not the isolation one had in High School (please note we are talking of the 1960s). Women going to Collage actually declined from 1900 till 1960 than started to increase again in the 1960s (For example 40% of all Medical Students in 1900 were female, this had dropped by the 1930s to single digits). Similar drop in numbers occurred in the legal profession. Darrow chief assistant in the Scopes monkey trial was a female attorney (who also is credited with the best speech in the Trial, her character and her speech is completely cut out of the Movie "Inherent the Wind" which completely changed the context of the Trial as while as what the attorneys did during the trial). After the 1920s Female attorneys also dropped to single digits (I knew an now elderly female attorney who went to law school in the 1960s, she had one fellow female in her class, that female never talked to her for she had frustrated her dream of being the only female in the law school, that is how rare women in law and other professions were prior to the 1960s).

Showing how "gray" the area of education is that I had to go off on the above tangent as to women in Collage. My point being starting in the 1960s you started to have women going to collage. While many students graduate in Four years, many do to lack of knowing what they willing what to learn in collage take 5-6 years to graduate. Thus graduation can be at age 23-24 plus the same two years you had in 1960 (high school graduation age 18 marriage age 20) you have the present average age of 25 for women. I believe this (i.e. High School education and than Collage Education) is the best explanation for the increase in women marrying since 1960 (and the decline in Marriage age from 1900-1960).

That being the case and given the limited experience most collage students have, would not the average age in 1900 indicate more mature people at least in work experience?

[gaia_gardener]

21. That's interesting

it totally does not jibe with my family history at all. Or Mr Gaia's history, either.

All 4 sets of our grandparents married when the girls were 15-18 (the men were all 5-7 years older), my great-grandparents married when my great-grandmother was 14 and she had a step-daughter who was 8.

In my hometown, I was considered "old" when I married at 22 (in the mid 90s). My mom married at 18, had a child by 19 and is still married at 57.

I think it can work if you are in an area where it is considered the norm and you don't know any better, which doesn't mean that I'd recommend it.

[happyslug]

28. My Father did not marry till he was 28.

And his father did not marry till he was 35. Now my mother was 21 when she married. My Paternal grandmother was in her early 30s when she married. On my mother's side her father had been over 30 and his wife almost 30. Yes, people the average age for marriage varied between families and districts but that is why we use statistics instead of individual cases. With Statistics we can weed out the strays and concentrate on when most people marry as opposed to when a certain person married.

[gaia_gardener]

30. I agree, but I said it was interesting

because I never would have guessed those were the stats. I wonder about those stats though, did they only consider first marriages or all marriages? I ask because one of my great-grandmothers was married 3 times by the time she was 25. Mr Gaia's great-grandmother married at 14 and was widowed at 15.5, she married again at 18. If you took the average ages for the 2 of them for their 5 marriages, you'd probably come up with an average age of 19-20.

[jdj]

15. Isn't romani the same as gypsy?

I know the gypsy tongue is called Rom, and I've seen it spelled romany.

The Irish travelers have alot of the same traditions.

It's like they don't try to control sexual behavior with shame like modern society does, they just go to great lengths to make sure to sell the daughter off to a legitimate suitor before any kids come so they don't have to pay for their upkeep once the dowry is disbursed. If we can put a man on the moon we should be able to come up with a better way to deal with human sexuality than this.

[American Tragedy]

7. I'm actually surprised that minors can marry at all.

The laws generally prohibit everyone under the age of eighteen from drinking, gambling, voting, purchasing tobacco, etc. Yet in some states, fourteen year olds can be pushed into a lifelong legal, financial, and emotional commitment to someone else, possibly producing children.

I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether parents have the right to impose that upon their children, and whether someone so young is even able to make an informed decision.

What prevents people from waiting at least until they are legally adults, before entering into a permanent partnership and ostensibly sexual union with one another, whether arranged or spontaneous?

[Sgent]

8. Shold have made myself more clear...

I would like to see the law changed to at least 16, if not 18. Was just pointing out how societal norms have changed over the last 100 years. When this was passed, it was done because people were expected to get married by 16 or so.

[happyslug]

18. Under the Common law the age of consent was 12

That went for marriage and to have sex. In Pennsylvania this recently was a problem for School teacher who had been having sex with his 12 year old student was able to get out of the Criminal Charge of having sex with a minor on the grounds the Teacher and the Student had entered into a valid Common law Marriage. While the State had required parental permission (or permission of the Court) in Ceremonial Marriages, and had changed the Age of consent to have sex to age 14 and 16 (Age 14 in the general rule while age 16 if the older sexual partner is more than 4 years older than the minor).

Since the State Assembly had NEVER outlawed Common Law Marriages in Pennsylvania (and had Never addressed Common Law marriages at all), the court had to look at the Common Law Rule and found that age 12 had been the age limit and thus this was a valid Common Law Marriage. Given it was a valid marriage sex between the parties was NOT illegal (Subsequently the State Assembly passed a law saying Common Law Marriages can NOT be entered into except if both parties are over 18 years of age).

My point is that Socially has been moving to age 18 as the age for consent for most things in life. Society has always had a problem for people can be sexually active as young as 10 (Mohammad is suppose to have had sex with one of his wives when she was 10). Society have also accepted that age 10-18 is to young to make PERMANENT decisions, thus the movement to age 18 as the age of consent, but the problem as to what age should we legally permit people to have sex? (Notice I said Legally, not when they do, but legally, people will have sex under age 18 but should we as a socially condone such sex or condemn such sex?)

[American Tragedy]

26. I am not referring to sexual activity in general.

I am referring to marriage. It seems to me that there is a significant difference between having sex with someone and marrying them. Marriage is regarded as a permanent commitment, rendered far more so if the union produces children. Even if one gets a divorce it is likely to have an overwhelming impact on the life of a young teen or pre-teen.

Of course, people will conduct their lives as they wish, but surely it is irresponsible of the states to endorse it, especially by granting carte blanche to adults who may well be sexually exploiting a naive young person. I am not a prude in the remotest sense; but I am old enough and experienced enough now to know very well how easily a girl (or boy) can be manipulated with delusions of love and security, and wind up doing things that they regret for the rest of their life.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

29. Marriage is a legal contract

We don't let 14-year-olds act for themselves. They need adult supervision.

[happyslug]

31. 14 year olds can be an Emancipated Minor

And as an Emancipated Minor can entered into valid enforcible contracts. Now to be an Emancipated Minor, the minor has to NOT under the "Care, control or supervision" of the minor's parents do to some act of the PARENTS. Please note this is the Common Law Rule, many states have modified this rule by statute so that exact rule varies from state to state and you need to check with a local attorney to see what the rule is in your state.

Thus, yes most 14 years old do NOT act for themselves but some do.

[geniph]

11. Many cultural traditions violate the law

Polygamy, child marriage, slavery, infanticide, drug rituals, etc. - all these things are cultural traditions in many cultures, and all are illegal. The bottom line is, obey the law or expect to pay the penalty.

A 14-year-old cannot give informed consent to a lifetime contract. They simply don't have the life experience to understand the consequences. It's statutory rape and involuntary servitude.

[jdj]

16. who would bring a suit in this case?

I mean if they wanted to fight it? Because for me, like you seem to imply, the courts are the place to settle this when a cultural tradition is illegal.

I guess the minor would have to sue for the right to legally marry, or something. Of course most of them would see this as their out and just admit they didn't want to. Can a minor bring a suit like this?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

24. Criminal case, not a suit

In most U.S. states (don't know about all) she can't marry until she is older. If they try to marry off younger children, it's a crime that should result in jail.

[Blue_Tires]

19. i knew a girl in HS arranged to be married (early 90s)

filipino...When she was a toddler, her parents (poor) agreed to marry her off to a rich man (when she became of age) in exchange for financing their emigration to the U.S...She wasn't even allowed to go to parties, to the prom, or even date (she had a boyfriend in secret, and hid him from her parents)...Luckily, the last I heard of the story, the parents had finally wisened up and learned that their soon-to-be high school honors graduate would probably make a better future for herself in the U.S. rather than in some rich old dude's stable back in the Philippines, so they were trying to work out a financial settlement with the benefactor.

[Sgent]

22. I should point out, at least in my state

It is NOT statuatory rape or a presecutable crime if a 30 year old marries a 14 year old w/permission. I wish they would change it, but the stautory rape laws don't cover (as pointed out above) sex between married couples.

It is possible that an interested party could step in and file a court action to prevent parental permission, but that would mean that CPS is already involved in the situation.

[MountainLaurel]

25. That's true in many places

I find it hard to look down on other culture's practices when my parents' former neighbors were pleased as punch when the 60-year-old across the street got their 15-year-old pregnant -- After all, not only did he have a good job, but he also had a pension from the mines that could support the whole, lazy, lot of them.

These laws are barely a step up from those in some nations in which a man can't be charged with rape if he marries his victim.