U.S. must win war despite cost, say lawmakers of both parties

[seriousstan]

WASHINGTON — Members of Congress, including many who have traveled to Iraq to see the war for themselves, are wary about this weekend’s election there and pondering questions such as whether Iraqi soldiers can be trained quickly enough to bring U.S. troops home soon.

Still, those lawmakers, Democrats as well as Republicans, are resolved to finish the war despite mounting costs and casualties.

"Whether you were for this or against this, we have to try to see this to a successful conclusion," said Sen. Evan Bayh, DInd., a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

They see Sunday’s election to choose a national Iraqi assembly as the crucial next step toward Iraqi sovereignty and the eventual withdrawal of the 150,000 U.S. forces there. They also are jittery as election plans go forward, perhaps a reflection of general unease about the war among the American public.

http://www.dispatch.com/national-story.php?story=dispatch/2005/01/25/20050125-A9-01.html

[Earth_First]

1. What's Schumer have to say?

He always seems to have an opinion.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Define "win". That would be a start.

[Demit]

3. I'm sure they will define it to be whatever they do to cut & run as soon

as possible. Maybe, "Welp, they've had elections! We won!"

[Bono71]

15. Actually, I hope that is how they define it...at least the cut and

run part.

[ngant17]

21. Tricky Dick used "Peace with Honor"

The Repugs will be careful to avoid saying "defeat", using similar terms as Nixon did in on 23 Jan 1973, 32 years ago.

Now the rightwing just blames the liberal Democrats for the defeat in Vietnam. LBJ was a liberal? No, he doesn't count because that won't fit into their perverted logic.

The best way to 'not lose a war' is pretty simple - don't start one in the first place.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Win = No oil left in Iraq n/t

[driver8]

39. "Win" -- when we control all of the oil and...

Haliburton's pockets are full!

[cthrumatrix]

46. ask them if we "won Viet Nam"...?

[chelsea0011]

4. Frig this. After the elections, pull out.

[KurtNYC]

28. Partition the country and leave

Iraqi self-determination would probably result in the partitioning of Iraq or at least the creation of a loose confederation in which the Kurds, Sunni and Shia would autonomously govern their own affairs. Had the Clinton administration allowed the partitioning of multi-ethnic Bosnia, the United States and other nations would probably not be saddled with the task of keeping the peace in this continuing tinderbox nine years after the Dayton Accords were signed. If the peacekeepers withdrew today, the fighting among Bosnia’s ethnic groups would probably resume.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1310

[blackspade]

32. It always comes back to Clinton...

Gees, will the MSM give it a rest already?

[Kolesar]

6. Let our allies take over: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Russia

that would be fun.

[TahitiNut]

19. You mean those "threatened neighbors" used to rationalize invasion?

I think they went the way of the WMD. I've heard absolutely nothing about any assistance given by any of those "threatened neighbors." Funny that. :eyes:

[htuttle]

7. Oh no, we can't respond to changing conditions!

That would be weak!

Forward! Into the buzzsaw!

:eyes:

[Redstone]

8. So what the fuck exactly IS

"a successful conclusion?"

"Finish the war" in specifically what way?

I get so God damned sick and tired of hearing people say "Well, we're there already, so we can't bring our soldiers home; we have to stay and "finish the job."

Yet nobody who says this has defined for me what "job" that is, beyond vague mumblings about elections and democracy and sunshine, daisies, and butterflies, with Truth and Justice and the American Way shining over all, forever and ever amen.

Can anyone clarify this "winning" goal for me?

Redstone

[htuttle]

14. I think it's all about domestic politics

Almost everything the Bushes have done overseas has everything to do with how it plays here at home.

So they can't withdraw until they decide they can convince people here in the US that they've "won", under whatever circumstances they can talk us into believing. The actual situation on the ground in Iraq seems to have almost no bearing on the decision whatsoever.

There's also the not-so-small matter of wanting to ensure that whatever government we end up propping up in Iraq continues to honor Bremer's laws allowing foreign piracy and control of Iraq's resources, but I bet they'll be willing to give that goal up within a few more months.

They'd never admit that, of course -- wouldn't play well at home...

on edit:
Oh, and the Congressional Democrats can't push for withdrawal, since they are in a huge game of 'chicken' with the Republicans regarding who is 'stronger' (not sure exactly who's 'strength' is being measured, though). I think it actually is a question of who's stupider and more pigheaded about not admitting a catastrophic mistake.

For some reason, stupid pigheadedness seems to play well here at home...

[jimshoes]

9. Or what?

The chimpministration would have to admit to a huge f*cking mistake and a lot of his buddies will lose a shitload of money? I can live with that. As long as he and his henchmen wind up in prison.

[lebkuchen]

10. What a sorry bunch we have in Congress

a lot of bad leadership

[Triana]

11. bullshit. they need to get the f out after 1/30

[LiberalVoice]

12. They could dump twice as much money into Iraq and they still won't win.

They have no chance...And the 30th elections will be the beginning of the end of this war and *.

[StClone]

13. Choose your wars carefully

Do the same when seeking a Prez...some jackass may have a perpetual hard on for quagmire pudenda.

[Jacobin]

16. Viet Nam talk

such utter bullshit, spending other people's money and other people's lives for a lie and to save their silly 'faces'.

These 'representatives' are just like the pricks who sent thousands off to die and be maimed for nothing 30 years ago.

[livetohike]

25. I agree

"We" have learned nothing. This is just becoming a big sinkhole for U.S. lives and money.

[llmart]

48. Your simple statement......

is the bottom line truth on this "adventure" of Bush's.

Anyone who is old enough to remember VietNam knows this is the truth.

[Wiley50]

17. I agree with RFKjr

75% Dems and 90% Reps corrupt

[Sterling]

26. Sounds about right to me.

nt

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

18. There must be no peace without honor.

Or oil. How much more Nixonian can you get?

I guess they haven't looked at a history book lately, 'cause they surely haven't learned its lessons...

[fryguy]

20. what constitutes a "win"?

since we're fighting an ideology and not a country - even if the bushies like to paint it that way - when will we know we've won? as long as there are people who disagree with our policies enough to cause harm, we'll be at war.

[Solly Mack]

22. That's easy to say when you're not the one dying

[bemildred]

23. How?

Tell us how you plan to do that, or shutup.

[Guns Aximbo]

24. Sounds like VietNam

Escalating the war... The costs and the number of personnel not to mention the scope.

At all costs? how many lives does that equate to?

How many allies does that mean we lose?

How much money?

Who will pay?

[yinkaafrica]

27. Where did my party go?

We used to call them Democrats and they stood up for most of the people, even those who didn't deserve it.
Remember them?

[Cocoa]

29. buried in the article

just because the AP buries Woolsey, et al, and the TV ignores them, doesn't mean we have to:

The rising number of U.S. casualties - climbing by 70 or more each month as the election draws near to at least 1,365 - also has been cause for alarm. The uptick prompted a small group of House Democrats to ask President Bush to start bringing troops home.

"Our troops are like sitting ducks," said Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif., the effort's ringleader.

[Art_from_Ark]

33. The effort's *ringleader*?

:wtf:

Why not just "leader", or even "spokesman"? "Ringleader" implies involvement in illegal or improper activities.

This biased Pravda-esque pablum that passes for "journalism" is really infuriating. Edward R. Murrow is spinning in his grave.

[daleo]

30. The German high command probably thought the same of Stalingrad

This is just another bit of sophistry used to gain consent. It is the way kids get other kids to go along - "Aw, come on, you came this far, so you can't back out now".

[Chicago Democrat]

36. But at least the Germans could blame Hitler for this bad decision!

History will judge us badly if we Democrats are willing collaborators in this war crime.

[ckramer]

31. Democrats in congress should stop sucking up Bush

[leesa]

34. How can these people be so stupid! Is it possible they don't see we

will NEVER win in Iraq? I can't WAIT until they kick our asses out...save a whole lot of unnecessary deaths.

Evan Bayh...you couldn't possibly be more wrong...you don't continue an illegal genocidal slaughter of people who did nothing to us.

I am so ashamed of my country.

[Chicago Democrat]

35. Oh well, I guess alot more Iraqis and American are going to die

in service of these misguided fools. The only problem in Iraq is the presence of the Americans. Remove them and you remove the problem.

[fshrink]

37. Hey! Now we've got only one party. Get over it!

Some more re-framing and everybody will agree with everybody on everything. Guess that's what democracy under god is. And of course, if you don;t agree you can burn in hell. Scalia and his apostles will see to that.

[hatrack]

38. "It's a quagmire, a disaster, Vietnam in slow-motion . . .

. . . and we're going to keep on spending money until we win it!" :eyes:

[Barkley]

40. Red, White & Blue: These Colors Don't Run!

... the world.

Does the cost include re-instating the draft?

Comparing the costs and benefits:

The additional costs are between $75 - $100 billion and 7 or so dead soldiers per week

But what are the additional benefits?
The only benefits I can think of is OIL and military bases.

Providing Iraq with 'democracy' is not a direct benefit to the American people.

[Rainscents]

42. I wish we were getting out...

I can't see that happening... Bush is asking another 80 billion dollars for the war, unless he is planning on getting out of the Iraq and going into Iran with this money.

[jmatthan]

41. Senators who want to keep on with the war at any cost

should give up their salaries and Senatorial benefits till the war is completed!!

That will certainly not be accepted!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[AuntiBush]

43. Despite Cost!?!

While our deficit is down the proverbial toilet, our society's only security nest-egg (however meager) is about to be pulled from under us and future generations (not to mention I'm sick of hearing about us baby-boomer's when it is "us" that paid-in so we'd have something to live on), and of course the great Medicare outage about to be robbed from any of us (God forbid you become "disabled," a dirty word these days) as the list goes on and on...

So, despite the Cost to the American public, while the 1% get more drunk with power and "In God We Trust Greenage," everything they do is of course, Clinton's fault.

Way too many drastic, extreme changes all at once, when we're just getting over the 9/11 shock mentality; still coming down from the "Elevated Terrorist Alerts" that kept us notified daily so we'd never forget to be "afraid."

Oh, let me stop before I get any sicker! I've said it before and I'll say it again... "What's wrong with the other's?" "Where are their heads?"

[pinniped]

44. Hey, I thought that asshole Loser Paul Bummer already gave them...

their 'sovereignty' back?

I saw it on tv and that stupid note that said "let freedom reign".

What gives????

--They see Sunday’s election to choose a national Iraqi assembly as the crucial next step toward Iraqi sovereignty and the eventual withdrawal of the 150,000 U.S. forces there.--

Boy, have they been lied to or what?

On second thought, the facts are clearly laid out and many are too stupid to see it.

[GetTheRightVote]

45. They will drag this war out as long as they can, they are evil

:kick:

Bring the troops home.

[cthrumatrix]

47. as long as corporations can make money and steal OUR tax $$$'s

the war will be on....