Rich Countries Poach Doctors, Nurses That Poor Nations Spent Hundr

[Tsiyu]

By Dulue Mbachu Associated Press Writer
Published: Jan 27, 2005


LAGOS, Nigeria (AP) - Lagos Island Hospital lost two of its best surgeons and several nurses to Gulf nations, Europe and America last year, leaving it in a dire situation shared by hospitals across the developing world.
"It is usually the most skilled and experienced who leave. We lose their skills and there's no one to train new people," Lagos Island's Dr. John Adebowale said Wednesday, the day a new report was released detailing the costs of the migration of medical professionals from poor to rich countries.

Cheap labor from the developing world doesn't just mean taxi drivers, nannies and maids. Rich countries save hundreds of thousands of dollars in training on the doctors and nurses they poach from poor nations, creating a shortage of health care workers in those countries, according to the report from the International Organization for Migration.

The intergovernmental group, which often works closely with the United Nations on immigration and refugee issues, estimated it would have cost rich nations about $184,000 to train each of the estimated 3 million professionals educated in poor countries now working in the developed world, for a "staggering" total savings of $552 billion.

Poor nations, meanwhile, spend $500 million a year training health workers, according to the report presented at a two-day meeting to discuss the impact of the migration of Africans.

more:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBYOOKLG4E.html

[moondust]

1. Disgusting.

This is rape. Why don't the rich countries just nuke those poor countries and get it over with?

Capitalism can be really, really, really ugly.

[Sgent]

2. A top surgeon

in India makes about $3,000 from that national health service.

They make about 40K while performing their american internship/residency (5) years.

They then make about 250k.

Although other numbers (Britian, France, Canada) are lower, they too have the problem of many of their best doctors coming to the US -- so they recruit from an international source as well as train internally.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. I know of a village in India whose residents pulled their money

in order to send a favorite son to the U.S. to become a doctor and he would return to his village as the town physician.

He became addicted to the American dollar and the Jaguars, and stayed. He's now a rich surgeon in one of the most expensive counties in the Northeast and has never regretted his decision.

[Bono71]

8. I bet he also send cash back to his family and/or village...

this is not a problem, imho.

[TO Kid]

22. In Canada it's not just the money

Doctors are getting fucked over and it's getting worse. The Ontario govenment is trying to push doctors out of private practice and into salaried jobs, essentially turning them into civil servants, and they are now talking about going on strike over it. We already have a huge shortage of doctors because the geniuses who believe in central planning decided in the early 1990s that the way to cut health care costs is to reduce the number of placements in medical schools.

[Bono71]

7. Good Grief!...it is not rape to want to provide for your family

by moving to a place that will pay you more money...and it is not the fault of the countries who benefit by taking these immigrants in...

I bet in many instances these doctors aren't even moving to out-and-out capitalist countries (like Spain, France and Germany).

Good grief.

[moondust]

9. Then tell us...

to whom do you refer for medical care the throngs of sick people who continue to live in those poor countries? The local carpenter?

Narrow self-interest does not come close to being a justification for a human health disaster.

Good grief is right.

[420inTN]

10. So, what's stopping you from becoming a Dr., and moving there? n/t

[Bono71]

12. Great point. n/t

[moondust]

14. Well

I never cared much for chemistry or biology and I have a weak stomach for blood and guts. If, however, for some reason I did decide to become a doctor I would naturally do so partly to be of service to "my people", "my tribe".

I see the ME Generation is out in full force this morning.

[Bono71]

17. What do you do? I am sure many of these poorer countries could

use much more than doctors...you should move there...otherwise, you are just a "disgusting" (your word) as the folks who move to places like Europe or the US after becoming doctors.

[moondust]

18. You don't get it.

I don't blame the people doing the moving. I blame the capitalists who control the money and make the offers that drain poor countries of their most precious human resources. The tempters and the pimps, the robber barons, the creators of human misery and suffering.

Welcome to Ignore Status.

[Bono71]

20. Capitalists????? What if they move to France????

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. France isn't capitalist? Why? (nt)

[Bono71]

37. For Doctors it isn't capitalist...the medical economy is the textbook

definition of socialism.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Are you forbidden from opening a clinic there? (nt)

[Bono71]

40. In France? No. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. Didn't think so. What makes it socialist then?

The mere existence of universal healthcare, maybe?

[Bono71]

42. That would be a good guess, considering the amount of governement

ownership of things.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. OK. So the mere existence of universal healthcare

flags a place as non-capitalist. Glad we have THAT sorted out.

Now, is it a BAD thing?

[Bono71]

11. How about the governments of those countries coming up

with a plan that takes care of their own?

[moondust]

15. Just out of curiosity

what do you think the above article is all about? Did you even bother to read it?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. I believe capitalism CAN get ugly.

Even if you believe the good outbalances the evil, that's no reason to deny that the evil exists. Does that make me "knee-jerk pseudo-socialistic" too?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. Please elaborate. Capitalism should be considered 100% good, nothing bad?

That's what you're saying.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. And BOOOOM he's gone!

I feel good. Does that make me a bad person? :evilgrin:

[Horse with no Name]

47. Well here is an ugly answer

Bushcon and his thugs are seeking to enact tort reform nationwide. They have done this here in Texas. Physicians were told that if they supported this legislation, it would mean lower malpractice rates for them and they would not be sued for large sums of money. Well, monetary awards were down a substantial amount, lawsuits were down, but guess what? The doctors rates STILL went up. The legislation basically only protects the insurance companies and the large hospital corporations against large settlements.
I had a friend that was 49 years old that died in the hospital--it was a pure case of neglect and the standard of care clearly wasn't met. Her family sought to sue for damages, but guess what? She didn't make enough money therefore her life was valueless in damages.
IF she were a bigshot executive then her family would be able to sue for lost income potential. This is just another way that the working class has gotten screwed.
This is a slippery slope in healthcare. When only the wealthy are able to sue, hospitals will customize their care to that clientele base. The patients who are in the "lawsuit" class, will be segregated to different areas of the hospital. These areas will be well staffed and well monitored. The "non-lawsuit class" will be relegated to less desirable areas with patient wards that are not as well staffed and their care will suffer greatly because they aren't "worth anything".
Our hospitals will fall to a caste system.
You also have to take into consideration that Bush is promoting his agenda of healthcare accounts--even made the (paraphrased) statement that people will be frugal in their healthcare. Well they certainly will--we will drop to a society that does not promote wellness in healthcare and only sickness because the working class cannot afford these "luxuries" of pap smears, mammograms, etc.
Then you have the rising cost of healthcare insurance with decreased coverage.
All of these things portend that our nursing shortages will be alleviated because fewer people will be able to access affordable healthcare.
I feel many of the foreign nurses will return home, but we will also be creating throngs of sick people here without healthcare.
Have I said today that I detest Bush?


:mad:

[TO Kid]

19. So what do you propose?

Are you saying that these human beings are property and have no right to sell their services to the highest bidder? Last time I checked, America outlawed that concept back around 1865 or so.

[Bono71]

21. Great point. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. No. Straw man.

Nobody is advocating making slaves of these professionals. And one isn't required to offer a solution in order to recognize a situation as bad. Maybe Xap doesn't KNOW what should be done. I don't either.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

3. my Moscovian friends and neighbors of 7 years talk about this often.....

Misha a pediatric surgeon in Moscow said, "that Dr's. are paid next to nothing there because everyone is so poor" even though his credentials are not excepted here in the US and he is prevented from practicing medicine, he does have a well established and thriving pediatric physical therapist clinic here and is very thankful for the oppurtunity "living like a king" compared to his lifestyle in Russia....Tanya is a microbiologist...Sasha their 12 year old son reads and speaks 5 languages fluently....i very much enjoy their friendship and we share many hours of enlightening conversations over dinner and these conversations always run late into the evenings.

they have stated many many times that "Putin can NOT be trusted"

[RawMaterials]

5. This has gone on for years its nothing new

Its called brain drain, But it is also(was) predicted that it would happen to the US after *'sh won(stole) the election. It also effects communities with in the rich nations. For example doctors and lawyers who leave small rural Midwestern communities for the East or west cost. This might be because of money or it just might be that when one gets educated to a certain degree they want to be around more people that they feel they have an intellectual kin ship with.

Its not right but happens, I cant think of a good solution to it other then dropping our standard of living and raising up everyone else's kind of like a world minimum wage for the world economy.

[Turley]

6. In Germany

It's mostly in-home caregivers which can ruin a family financially if they pay the official rate. Generally you can get a qualified nurse from Poland to do the same job at 1/3 the going rate on a tax-free (i.e. black-market) rate. Sometimes even less.

Huge issue in Germany as the Gov't is cracking down hard and prosecuting people.

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. Northern Exposure

And a M. Fox movie. Hit various aspects of this. It is nothing new. If you want to keep your health care workers at home. You either find a way to do it in contract law. Or you give them a standard of living equal to what they could expect elsewhere.

[NNguyenMD]

23. hmm...this may get me skewered but in terms of highly trained specialists

US training programs in subspecialties in surgery like Neuro, Trauma, Orthopedic, are ridiculously protectionist about accepting only physicians who have attended medical school in the United States. I would assume the same for other lucrative specialists like GI, Cardiology, and Dermatology.

Primary care, or fields with high patient volume like General Surgery, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and Ob/Gyn are the only places that I can imagine where this runs rampant.

Then again the AMA, of which I don't support and am not a member of, lobby's endlessly in controlling the number of US medical school graduates i.e. does not favor the building of more medical colleges or increasing the number of US schooled physicians. So poaching doctors from other countries could very well be the only solution hospitals have to plug up staffing shorfalls.

Anyways, many of the emmigrant physicians whom I have met are terrific and work tirelessly in providing quality health care to patients. It would be a sad loss if they went back, but I understand that there's a much greater for them in their home countries. Tough situation.

[redqueen]

24. Why wouldn't the AMA favor more colleges or increasing the number

of US-schooled physicians?

[NNguyenMD]

28. I personally think its to control physician salaries and maintain the

constant demand for doctors. If there is a constant shortage, then salaries will typically stabilize, or be high especially in areas with few doctors.

But aside from that I'm not really sure, Candadian medical school are extraordinarily difficult to get into, not just for Americans but Canadians too, and there are not many Canadian medical schools to apply to. There could be a similar logic to explain that phenomenon as well.

Anyways I'm sure someone else on here can offer a better explanation as to the reasons why the AMA fights tooth and nail to the opening of new medical schools

[Bono71]

29. I think you hit the nail on the head...the AMA does not want the

profession to go the way of law (Note: I am not saying it should be as easy to get into med school as it is law school).

There are too many lawyers, and this ultimately drives down fees, for some.

[Horse with no Name]

25. Because of the nursing shortage

The US routinely recruits nurses from Canada, Phillipines, India, Africa and England and has done it for years.
Alot of times it is the issue of supply and demand. These countries had gluts of nurses in past years and not enough jobs for them and we didn't have enough--so they came over with great benefit packages, perks and living expenses sponsored by the hospitals that recruited them.
If you have ever been a patient in an inner city hospital then you know your chances of getting an American nurse is pretty slim.
I am sure now the glut has dried up and now these countries who have exported nurses for all these years need them to stay but cannot compete with the incentive packages offered in the U.S.
If these countries had gainfully employed the nurses in the first place then most would not have left their countries. Everyone has a right to make a living and support their families the best that they can.
That is the American way and does not reflect on the greed of the U.S. There are too many other issues that reflect on that--but IMHO, this is not one of them.

[KissMeKate]

30. only phillipines EVER had a nurse glut

and mexican nurses- but mexican nurses have different training and often dont mesh with us nursing standardsso they dont come to the US.

WE ARE and have always been poaching nurses these other countries NEED.

[Mystified]

26. Meanwhile...

Poor countries poach U.S. manufacturing and service industry jobs.

[Bono71]

27. touche. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. Hey, you didn't answer post #33 yet. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. "Poor countries" don't do that, big fat filthy rich megacorps do. (nt)

[Bono71]

44. So what? Countries don't have a say in it? n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. They can't AFFORD not to take the jobs.

But eventually, the inexorability of Mathematics will catch up with this construct we call "the economy" and everything will fall like a house of cards.

You can't sell if there's no buyers.

[lovuian]

35. Welcome to Outsourcing!!!

This is us Outsourcing from other nations