CNN: BREAKING NEWS Two-seater U.S. chopper crashes in Baghdad

[sabra]

cnn.com - top of the page in red.

BREAKING NEWS Two-seater U.S. chopper crashes in Baghdad; status of crew unknown, U.S. military sources say.

[maddezmom]

1. U.S. Army Helicopter Crashes in Baghdad (Friday 1/28/05)

1 minute ago Middle East - AP



BAGHDAD, Iraq - An Army helicopter crashed in southwest Baghdad on Friday night, and the fate of the crew was not immediately known, a U.S. military official said.



U.S. military officials do not believe the helicopter was hit by hostile fire, Lt. Col. James Hutton said.


The OH-58 Kiowa helicopter usually carries a crew of two pilots and is unlikely to carry large numbers of passengers.


Ground units were at the scene, but the status of the crew was not immediately known, Hutton told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

~snip~

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=1&u=/ap/20050128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter_crash

[sabra]

2. Don't believe it was hit by hostile fire...

Would they tell us?

[Pirate Smile]

4. They have to fly so low and so fast to avoid getting hit by insurgents

that it hugely increases the chances of crashing. It is related to the fighting. (this is what I heard during the discussions of the crash that killed over 30 soldiers)

[sabra]

5. But those are details that they don't want us to know...

[Pirate Smile]

14. Oh, I know. It is just like a car crash that could happen anywhere.

:eyes:

[DrWeird]

11. It went down over Baghdad.

It was probably drawing a lot of fire.

[wabeewoman]

8. They'll tell us-just not the truth

Thought this was interesting:
The military is still investigating what caused that CH53E Super Stallion to crash. This is the one from the other day that killed 31 soldiers.

[msanthrope]

10. "Still investigating" means that they are waiting for a

Friday night news dump, or some other distracting event before they let the families know that their children died 'in combat'.

[CottonBear]

20. I was just wondering what today's news dump would be.

Helicopters are so very dangerous even when not in combat. I have a former Marine friend who almost crashed in a helicopter in Hawaii. When something goes wrong, down you go and hard.

[BrotherBuzz]

12. Was that the one that went down in a sandstorm?

On the same day the weather reports indicated calm winds?

[Pirate Smile]

16. I heard they hit heavy fog and since they have to fly so fast and so low

there is no margin for error.

The helicopter in back went higher because of the fog and the one that crashed hit the ground.

But who the hell really knows and how can you believe what they say anyway.

[BrotherBuzz]

18. I'll accept that...

but I have to wonder why I heard early reports of sandstorms. Seems everything I hear from MSM is tailored for domestic consumption...the hell with the truth.

[MADem]

41. Sand and wind are an issue over that way

In fact, one of the reasons that the Sikorsky and Bell platforms that were used in the ill-fated DESERT ONE effort during the hostage drama in Iran failed was due to sand intake. Also, they didn't ajust for the altitude changes either between sea level and the higher elevations where they staged.

There are a load of old guys who have substantial experience in helo maintenance in that part of the world, former Bell and Sikorsky contractors who worked for Iraq and Iran back in the old days. They should ask them about screens to mitigate the issue, instead of reinventing the damn wheel all over again...for the third time!

http://www.weathernotebook.org/transcripts/2003/05/15.php

[DrWeird]

13. There were early reports it was downed by enemy fire.

Personally, I think they want to cover it up, and they're looking at plugging up any leaks.

[Psephos]

28. Aircraft crash investigations take time

Meanwhile, the media and the blogosphere run rampant with rumors. Remember all the crazy-ass speculations about the TWA and SwissAir crashes? The Concorde?

Flying helicopters is extraordinarily risky compared to say, driving a car, which itself is risky enough. There are a lot of choppers flying in Iraq, and some of them are going to go down whether or not they are shot at, just as happened in Indonesia recently during the relief flights.

Save the rumor-mongering for where it's more fun, like whether * is stealing nips from his flask when he goes to the men's room. :-) Seriously, the near-delight I sense in some of these posts is unseemly to say the least.

[htuttle]

6. They don't know the status of the helicopter crew yet...

...but they are already sure the crash wasn't due to enemy fire.

Bullshit.

[Cocoa]

3. another accident

that's two terrible pilots.

[TahitiNut]

7. A "loach"? What're they doing? Snoopy missions? Pink teams?

Shades of Vietnam. :eyes:

[DemoTex]

9. OH-58 is a Bell JetRanger (5-seater)

Usually used for observation or administration runs.

[fooj]

15. Thanks! So...why the info that it was a 2-seater?

[Twillig]

17. So the don't have the media

asking more questions like: "Did another thirty or so troops just die?"

Two are fungible.

[fooj]

19. Oh God...

[Red State Rebel]

34. Please see correction posted below n/t

[Twillig]

44. ah, I see

I didn't mean that they said it was a two-seater to cover up another big transport 'copter crash.

I meant to say that they said it was a two-seater so that the theme of the story (only two dead, don't worry) would be evident in the headline.


Sorry I wasn't clear.

[Red State Rebel]

Incorrect, it is a 2 seater

Every source I checked, including this forum for Kiowa pilots/families says it is a 2 seater.

http://www.kiowapilots.com/forums/showthread.php?s=46cbb50115b200a3629b6c97f52e6764&threadid=4717

If you scroll down, you will see a post referring to a news report that it was a 3 seater and a that it is incorrect, a few posts below that it states it is a 2 seater.

No offense meant, I just hate to see people go all conspiracy theory on a non issue.

[DemoTex]

36. The original OH-58 had 5 seats. I know. I flew in them in Vietnam.

Here is an account of the death of John Paul Vann (subject of A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam by Neil Sheehan) in an OH-58 in Vietnam's Central Highlands on June 9, 1972 along with two others. The point is, not all variants of the OH-58 are 5-seaters; not all are 2-seaters, either.

http://www.thebattleofkontum.com/stars/43.html

[Red State Rebel]

37. Is it the "Kiowa" model that is 2 seater?

That is what I was going by, everything that came up under the 0H-58 Kiowa indicated 2 seats. That is the model specified in the Yahoo news story.

[DemoTex]

38. The original OH-58 of the 60s was the "Kiowa."

The new variant, the OH-58D is known as the "Kiowa Warrior". The OH-58D is a recon/attack helicopter and has only two seats. However, the specs on the OH-58D say it is capable of carrying up to six troops "externally." I don't know if that means standing on the skids, in a "sling-load," or what.

On edit: There are still plenty of the older model OH-58s flying, especially with National Guard units.

[Red State Rebel]

48. Oh geez! Can't imagine riding on the skids...

I'd be checking my laundry for sure!

[TahitiNut]

53. Here's the 1969 'Nam Kiowa (w/o Cobra JAAT pair)

[DFWJock]

21. Nothing to see here folks...

Freedom is on the march...liberty...freedom....
Thats all you need to know.

[Oreo]

22. Can't remember where I heard this

but some Army general talking about the Stallion crash said it was a mechanical failure due to bad weather and went on to say a cause was not known for the accident immediately after that.

Big grain of salt for anything we hear this weekend (moreso then usual)

[daleo]

23. A Texas sized salt dome won't be big enough

The lies will be thicker than an Iraqi sandstorm over the next week or so, given the upcoming "election".

[Steely_Dan]

24. Bernie Ward on KGO -

Bernie Ward made an observation last night concerning the Stallion crash. Someone emailed him with the weather conditions at the time of the crash. It was clear with light and variable winds.

Ummmm....me thinks that it was hit by a Stinger.

-P

[LynnTheDem]

25. another busy day in Iraq

Busy dying.

7 US so far.

[lebkuchen]

26. rock and roll

Bush predicted there would be an increase in violence. How right he was.

There's an increase alright. The Bushies are going to need Harris and Blackwell to patch up this debacle.

[LynnTheDem]

27. The Tet has begun

And it's gonna keep getting worse.

[caligirl]

29. We always said they happen in three's. Sad day.

When one squadron had an accident, all the wives and families sat on egg shells waiting for the next one to happen. They always happened in three's. We were in Kaneohe Bay, Hi in the 80's when the helos were still there.

[frictionlessO]

30. Im getting a bit worried about this incident now...

There is still no word on the crew. Praying that they didnt get taken hostage.

[MADem]

31. The aircraft's mission profile, fwiw

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040924-kiowa.htm

After countless modifications over the years, pilots in Iraq were equipped with the latest model of the Kiowa helicopter, the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior, currently replacing the A and C Kiowas. It is a two-seat, single-engine, four-bladed single main rotor light helicopter with a low light television, thermal imaging system, and laser range finder/designator incorporated into an above the rotor Mast Mounted Sight (MMS). It is designed to operate autonomously at standoff ranges providing armed reconnaissance, command and control, and target acquisition and designation under day/night, hot, and adverse weather conditions.

The Kiowa Warrior can designate targets for precision-guided munitions carried by Apache helicopters, other airborne vehicles, or ground based systems. Using the Airborne Target Handover System, the Kiowa Warrior is capable of rapidly providing adjustment of conventional artillery or handing targets to other airborne weapons platforms equipped with digital receiving equipment. The Kiowa Warrior can also be armed with Air-to-Air Stinger missiles and Air-to-Ground Hellfire missiles, 2.75 inch rockets, or a .50 caliber machine gun.

[MadisonProgressive]

32. The second one in a week 'not caused by hostile file' - RIGHT!

[MadisonProgressive]

33. From Fox news story:

"Other helicopters were flying over the crash site in southwest Baghdad to provide cover for the ground search and rescue units, Hutton said"

Freedom is on the march!!!

[PhuLoi]

35. I wouldn't be suprised if it turned out to be an OH-13 to be piloted

by some of those mid-sixities pilots.

[DemoTex]

39. The mighty OH-13 "Sioux" of M.A.S.H. fame ..

[spinbaby]

40. kick

What happened? This story seemed to just drop out of the news.

[frictionlessO]

42. Im trying to figure that out as well... still no word on the crew.

every hour makes me feel more unsure about what happened to them.

[Mr_Spock]

45. What's the big deal? More dead soldiers and destroyed equipment

What else is new?

[frictionlessO]

46. Its different for me everytime... nt

[Mr_Spock]

58. ?? - don't appreciate the sarcasm/irony?

I do.

[frictionlessO]

59. no I gotcha, was saying why it was a deal at all to me is all..

your sig pretty much states it all on its own.

[pfitz59]

43. Uh Oh

"Kiowa Down". If the crew survived I'm sure the Iraqi's gave them a hero's welcome! I learned to fly helos in a TH-57 jet-ranger. Nimble little birds...... Relatively easy to auto-rotate.... Something's fishy here....

[0007]

47. bttt

:kick:

[frictionlessO]

49. Bttt???? nt

[osaMABUSh]

50. Haven't heard squat on this since CNN breaking - why buried?

It was a screaming Breaking News headline on cnn.com early but I haven't seen nothing in MSM since. What gives?

[osaMABUSh]

51. Ok, probably seven dead soldiers today and nothing?

This blip was buried in an article on cnn.com about the election.

The media is totally in lock step with this evil empire.


"A two-seat U.S. OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopter crashed Friday evening about 8 in southwest Baghdad, but whether the incident was part of pre-election violence was not known. Neither is the status of the two-person crew, the U.S. military said.

Officers with the 1st Cavalry Division said hostile fire was not suspected.

Elsewhere Friday, makeshift bombs killed four U.S. soldiers in separate attacks in southern and western Baghdad, and gunfire killed a fifth soldier in northern Baghdad, the military said."

[MadisonProgressive]

52. They still have the story at fuax

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145715,00.html

Still no update from the original story!

[frictionlessO]

54. anyone find anything new yet? nt

[MadisonProgressive]

55. No, the story has disappeared from CNN and Faux

I guess they think we are stupid. Not much we can do about it though.

[spinbaby]

56. Al Jazeera says two died in the crash

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5A91CFB3-0CA5-4FBF-8772-64A5FCF46E0A.htm

Not a peep from domestic news sources.

[frictionlessO]

57. they died.. heres the LBN link....

I think they buried it so it would pass into the forgotten weekend news.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1194102

[SodoffBush]

60. It's going to be more difficult to bury the US embassy attack

The freedom fighters are playing the media very well.