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True_Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:56 PM
Original message
Global warming claiming prehistoric glaciers
CHACALTAYA GLACIER, Bolivia - Up and down the icy spine of South America, the glaciers are melting, the white mantle of the Andes Mountains washing away at an ever faster rate.

"Look. You can see. Chacaltaya has split in two," scientist Edson Ramirez said as he led a visitor up toward a once-grand ice flow high in the thin air of the Bolivian cordillera.

In the distance below, beneath drifting clouds, sprawled 2-mile-high La Paz, a growing city that survives on the water running off the shoulders of these treeless peaks.

Chacaltaya, a frozen storehouse of such water, will be gone in seven to eight years, said Ramirez, a Bolivian glaciologist, or ice specialist.

more....
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050130/NEWS07/501300335/1001/NEWS
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. What's the point . . .
. . . in even talking about this anymore. The US isn't going to do anything about it, and now China is gearing up to release more CO2 than all the others combined.

I recommend we all buy some really nice floaties.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. and then where do they get water?
tick, tick, tick
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yet people refuse to believe it.
"Global warming? What global warming? It's snowing outside!"

-Idiot freepers every Winter.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. My favorite example of late
Our local rag gave a single headline - one sentence - excerpted from the Hadley Center/IPCC report on potential global average temperature increase of up to 11 degrees Celsius by 2100. That was three days ago.

Then today, they ran a good quarter-page of "news" (yes, this was in the A-section) all about Michael Crichton's maundering spew of a novel.

That's right - a truly alarming climate study gets a single sentence set off at the top of the World News section, while Crichton's bullshit gets hundreds and hundreds of words of "news" coverage.

We deserve whatever we get. Nature does not reward blatant stupidity, blind greed and wilful ignorance of what the future is likely to hold.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Good words. Now put them in a LTTE.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thank you!
Stated well! You're so right. People refuse to "believe in this," because they refuse to give up their materialisms beliefs.

Don't those that ignore science love their children, too? Seems they do not.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Please call the News Editor AND
the General Editor AND the Publisher with your complaint. Please. You can also do a LTE, but the editor and s deserve to hear from you. And if you can't get thru to them by phone (I used to be able to at the AJC but no more), send them snail mail copies of your LTE. Please.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Sad...
Last semester, one of my electives was "Physical Geography." At first, I was somewhat hesitant in the selection, knowing it was rather hard; past the norm of "weathering."

Mid-way through, I knew I had made the correct decision, yet on our college Internet message board area, where each week all of us in attendance "had to" post our findings, opinions, etc., it became a RED mentality VS. BLUE. It was obvious.

I might add, I got an "A" and made the Dean's List for the 3rd (should have been 4) time in a row, and was given extra credits for my postings as prescribed for the course - what happened was when I would post my findings according to the professors instructions, which did in deed lead me to "global warming," on nearly every weekly quiz, certain students began calling me a "doomsayer."

It stopped after I contacted the board Adm., still it left me profoundly saddened as we were heading straight into the elections and through my own observation, and very apparent I might add, a few students were Pro-Bush and claimed "Global Warming," and the "Ice Melting" that you mention were all based on "LIES!"

It's a sad day when college students (very few and definitely in the major-minority of the large group) do not even believe in over 250 world-renown scientists. No, they prefer to drive their big SUV's, and blame "Commi-Liberals" from keeping them from their material ownership.

Sure, that's better than saving our planet. Like I told them, "You won't have a planet to drive those SUV's around in, much less have to worry about paying Social Security to us leeches (what they called those of us against privatization) if you continue to ignore poor Mother Earth!"

:sad: Very, very :sad:
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section321 Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. And not just scientists, believe... insurance companies believe
Go to the websites of any of the major reinsurance companies and they all have studies on global warming. And they generally agree that its a problem. Its a problem for them because they have to pay the claims for increasingly violent weather. More hurriances & tornados & floods are bad for the insurance business.

Check out Swiss Re & General Re... and look under climate change.

I guess they didn't contribute enough to GWB's inaugural gala...
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. one small correction
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 05:44 PM by dave29
although I agree with everything you said:

The planet will still be here, it's us that won't. This planet has been through worse than global warming, and it will again.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't know what to say. If it's not about men marrying men,
then it doesn't get attention.

I'll say it for the last time, and then I'm silent forever. I've been on this forum a while, and I've continued to mention what I know to be the underlying cause. Some few people know it, and many find it offensive. Offensive it may be, but it is the truth. The problem is one that is compounded by the fact that there are six billion people. As an engineer, I cancelled my subscription of Design magazine in 1991 when they kept spouting off about "green designs". People, we cannot design our way out of this problem. And since there appears to be no discussion on the real cause (ie, BREEDING), we are going to see no real solution. We either stop our lifestyle as we know it, or we stop breeding. It's that simple. I hear all of these idiotic public service announcements asking people to "tread lightly", or to wear their seatbelts, or to not drink and drive, all while the planet is dissolving under out feet. We can't even agree that there is a problem. And the thought of decreasing population is something that brings conservatives to a feverish pitch of a whine. The solution is simple, and obvious. I'm not talking about it any more. I've been curbing my lifestyle for thirty years. No kids. I conserve energy. I don't drive unless absolutely neccisary. No traveling. I've done my part. But it didn't do a god damned thing. Thanks world, for not giving a shit.
Over and out!
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airfoil Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Wired Magazine Article on Nuclear
There is a very good article in Wired magazine this month. It walks through the numbers on why alternate forms of energy don't stand a chance to deliver the amount of energy the world needs. For example, 60 square miles of solar panels are needed to deliver the output of one small coal-fired power plant. As you extrapolate all that out, you see that entire states need to be devoted to solar panels, entire states to wind, etc etc.

The author makes a solid case for nuclear, and how there are many green advocates that are starting to lean that way too. Conservation can perhaps give us 10% reduction, which doesn't really make a dent in things. It does permit the world to extend oil supplies for perhaps 2.5 additional years.

Totally agree we've got to clean things up.
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renaldo Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Not that bad
At current silicon efficiencies, a 60 square mile area could produce about 37 megawatts. However, the efficiencies could be tripled by using parabolic tracking mirrors to create steam for turbines. This would put us at about 100 megawatts for a 8 x 8 mile square area, or one gigawatt for a 25 x 25 mile square. Believe me, we got lotsa desert.
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. aim in between
The solar cells rarely get enough light to operate near peak efficiency - unless you put them in a southern desert - then they get too hot for efficiency. They can last 25 years, but - if run near peak efficiency - can take 8 years to pay back the energy it took to make the cells in the first place.

The steam, or fluid transfer, collector systems rely on near-perfect mirrors to reflect 15 feet of sunlight into a 1/2inch line. They mount the mirrors on a heavy steel frame and move the whole contraption to track the sun. So they are more expensive per square foot than cell-based collectors, and cost more to run.

Consider an intermediate system. Build a reflector trough into every roof. Don't track the whole reflector, just the focus. Don't use near-perfect mirrors and steel frames, just aluminum foil-based roofing and the regular wooden roof framing. You can get 75% of the efficiency of the tracked super-reflector without the astronomical cost. At the focus, you put solar cells backed by a heat collector. The sun is concentrated say 12:1 instead of the 350:1 of the desert steam reflector, the solar cells put out 10x the output, hence needing only 1/10th the number of cells, and the heat collector both keeps the cells cool for better efficiency and generate household hot water.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. It's not just about what can be sustained.
It's also about (and I absolutely hate this phrase) quality of life. Escaping the noise, the cars, the destruction of forests, and the loss of beautiful fields to rows of condominiums. Where does one stop? The list is nearly infinite. I'm wealthy enough that I own a ranch in California and a beautiful farm in Oregon. And I find it disgusting that what used to be remote and silent is now plagued with the noise of automobiles and yapping dogs. It goes way way beyond just survival. What about asthetics? That got lost in the noise decades ago. And just having energy doesn't guarantee survival. The land has suffered so immensely that in places like Australia, there may be only a couple of decades left before the topsoil is no longer available for growing food. And like a poster said below- there is a growing potential for disease. And I say, lastly, that we all are not in love with each other. As the population grows, so does war and crime. I don't know why I waste my time on this subject. Of just about anyone, I have as idyllic a life as it gets. I just find it highly objectionable that there are people who will dislike what has happened as much as I do. I have already suffered over this. That should be part of the equation, too. I'm not alone. Many people, who don't speak up, are also very disturbed.
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twaddler01 Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I wish...
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 05:07 PM by twaddler01
we could destroy new technologies and roam the Earth by foot. We can hunt, camp, sleep, take care of ourselves and get hid of all the "high-tech needs" that we have in our lifestyle. Going at this rate, we are bound to destroy this beautiful Earth and lose all life on this planet--that is, of course, if mother nature doesn't take us out first.

I think I should start buying some land on the moon...
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bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I totally sympathize with you on this.
I have a minor in environmental studies, more importantly I've been following environmental issues closely for thirty years, I have changed my life to follow principles of low resource use, I talk up these issues when I can, but I feel nowadays that it's all been fruitless. Not a meaningless gesture, but like I've prepared for a life that doesn't seem like it's on the way. When I read these articles about what to do, I've already done much of what they say is too much to ask. Unlike you, I've got no pile of personal resources to rely on, so I'm just in here with all the other "doomed" folks. I've always been a fan of Bucky Fuller, so I maybe think there's more possibility for design to help, but first people have to get a clue. Nowadays it's as if there are whole areas of knowledge about the environment that are politically forbidden. Can you imagine it, knowledge that's forbidden!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. That is JUST GARBAGE, pure and simple
For example, 60 square miles of solar panels are needed to deliver the output of one small coal-fired power plant.

You don't NEED 60 sq. miles of solar panels -- you need solar panels on the roof of every home and every other building. You need energy-friendly design. The energy-efficient lightbulbs I use are a little more expensive but they use massively less energy AND last for years, literally. I've got some in use every day that I've had for about 5 years now.

Anoither example, a friend of mine lived in THE most charming, cozy and delightful home that was built (not by her) with a "passive solar design," which means that it had a very high pitched roof that discouraged the absorption of the summer sun, beautiful windows (but not too many) facing south to collect heaps of winter sunlight onto heat-absorbing-and-releasing ceramic tiles. The sun skipped warming those tiles in the summer, which means the tiles were cool and helped keep the house cool, and warmed the house in the winter. There was also a small highly energy-efficient woodstove that on the coldest of winter days would help warm the whole downstairs on one smallish log. None of this cost anything extra in the building or design, really -- just attention to the issue.

I've also noticed something esle in the South which has gone out of favor. Remember those wrap-around porches? They keep the inside of homes much cooler than homes without them. The deeper the porch, the more it helps cool. Add windows that open and allow cross-drafts and you could almost get away without air conditioning on many days. There are many other things you can do as well. The ancient Romans developed a method of air conditioning that cooled the air under the ground, probably several hundred feet, and brought it into the home. There are MANY things that can be done.

And Solar energy is just magic. It's there, you collect it in solar panels, store it in batteries, and use it as needed. It's just magic. There is no GOOD reason we can't be using solar energy everywhere. We should have been using it from the moment it was invented and developed. I'm a HAWK on solar power.
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BamaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Glad you posted this Eloriel
I always get a little pissed at the anti-solar arguments. Why on earth would you use solar to power a plant when it can be used individually!?

We're doing what we can to make our existing home as "passive solar designed" as possible. (I refuse to buy something else in this outrageously overvalued market.) Between tile floors, an electric/programmable thermostat, cf bulbs, and generally annoying the crap out of people to turn stuff off they aren't using, we have decreased our electric bill (don't have gas) by 2/3 in a year and that is with a rate hike with the local power company! We got lucky when we bought our (new) house a few years ago and have a good front porch and well placed windows. In the spring and fall we can do without the a/c. So many houses are so closed up though, they must be unbearable without a/c a good 9 months of the year here. Finally, we're getting a solar system for the house sometime at the end of the year. Our power expense is pretty low now, so going solar won't save us money over the long run, but when the next hurricane blows through I'll be much more likely to have power than my neighbors, and power down here in August is a real good thing. ;)

Some people are not going to listen to lectures on conserving or alternate energy (that can be localized to your own house for crissakes!) until their power expense triples or more. I don't want to go through those particular growing pains! But I meet more and more people who are at least taking some of the steps we have, and there are actually homes in the area now powered by solar. There seems to be a very subtle and slow shift in thought going on though. Two pretty conservative women I know actually gave me a long speech on the dangers of global warming a few days ago. I was shocked speechless, which is a damned rare thing lol.
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. toys
There are some good motion sensing light switches around now, they use the sort of motion sensor you would find in a home intrusion alarm but are built into the light switch. If nothing has moved in the room for 15 minutes, then they turn the lights off. Some can also be set to tell if the room is already bright enough so they don't turn the lights on when theres plenty of natural light.

The tight houses that need AC on year round probably need just some ventilation to expel humidity and bring fresh air into the house. A energy-recovery heat/exchanger ventilator will do it. It moves heat or heat+humidity between the incoming and outgoing air so you can get fresh air without throwing away heat or AC with the exhaust air. They save 70% of the heat/ac transferring it to the incoming air.

The house eloriel mentions, with common-sense passive solar features, may cost a wee bit more than a 'normal' house because a good passive solar design needs thermal mass. An extra-thick insulated slab, or some internal masonry walls, or just a few hundred gallons of water or planters built into it. In such a house, you can often turn up the ventilation at night (open the windows) when the nights are cool, and the thermal mass will store enough 'cool' to avoid any AC in the daytime.

Shade trees can do the job of the wrap-around porches, shading the sides of the house in the summer, but letting the sun through in winter when the leaves have fallen.

And a dark roof can soak up 3x as much heat in the summer as a white roof. White roofs still get hot though, see radiant barriers.
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airfoil Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. Look at the numbers
I'm afraid it isn't this simple. The US alone consumed 3.6T KWh of electricity in 2003. If you assume a solar cell is very near 100% efficient and can convert 1m2 of sunlite into 1kw, and if you assume they can do this 12 hours per day all year, then you need 115,000 square miles of land to place solar cells. This is 1/4 the size of Alaska.

The assumptions above are EXTREMELY generous. Cars, for example, after years and years of thermal efficiency improvements, achieve overall efficiency of about 35%. Also, assuming 12 hours of incident sunlight per day EVERYDAY is very optimistic.

Very quickly it should be obvious that covering all of Alaska in solar cells with focusing mirrors and computer tracking won't even come close to meeting our electricity needs.

Oil isn't even factored into this. You'd still need just as much oil to keep cars running and to heat houses.

The problem is very serious. Folks, please study this on your own. Learn how to walk yourselve through the maths and make sure you understand the quantities of consumption. They are staggering. I am happy to help you evaluate alternate forms in your study. The longer we pretend to think that solar and wind can come close to meeting our needs, the longer we'll end up relying on oil.
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's true...we are The Spawn of the Earth
I don't think we've reached the point of great die-offs just yet.
We still have War as a way of controlling the prime male breeding populations around the globe and Disease is still waiting for it's crack at the walking ape. The Earth will find a way to shake off it's parasites sooner or later. It found a way to get rid of the dinosaurs; mankind will just have to wait it's turn at extinction.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Film at 11.
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It's not about "proof" it is about accurate "modeling"
and using the brains God (or what have you) gave us. In a complex system the various subsystems exist in a dynamic yet balanced relationship. Changes in a system can be absorbed up to a certain critical level. Beyond that level change moves to a different scale, with far greater impact upon the whole.

We are part of the complex ecological system that is life on planet Earth. No individual species can have a significant impact within the total system so long as its numbers are confined within the whole system. However, if it becomes too 'successful' in any given area--such that it over grazes--the consequence is regional ecological shift. The 'herd' either moves on, adapts to the changes or becomes extinct. However, in our case, we have gone beyond the scale of 'region' and have moved onto the scale of planetary forces themselves. This is very treacherous water for a species to wade into without very good modeling systems--systems which we have only just begun (historically speaking) to develop.

In any case, the overall scenario postulated by Bateson (see my post below) still holds: If, mentally and emotionally, you cut yourself off from your environment and live AS IF the environment is yours to exploit without consequences AND YOU HAVE AN ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY, ultimately the consequences will be a total devaluation and degradation of environmental system upon which the quality of your life depends.

It really doesn't take a genius to figure this out. Humanity has moved beyond the point where it can take the natural environment for granted as always absorbing our waste, for example. WE ALL KNOW THIS--if we didn't why do you think we would need such elaborate waste disposal systems? The time is past when we can just shit in a whole next to the road, cover it up and walk away from it. Well, the same is true in terms of other kinds of waste as well--all the environmental wastes that are the by-products of our industrialized societies. If we do not tend to these wastes and find ways of neutralizing them--actually recycling them into the larger planetary system--then sooner or later we will die.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. EXACTLY: We've known this for over 30 years
Thirtyfive years ago, Gregory Bateson (Anthropologist, Psychologist, Cybernetcist, Stanford educator, one-time husband of Margaret Mead, one of the geniuses of the last century), summed it up like this:
The cybernetic epistemology which I have offered you would suggest a new approach. The individual mind is immanent but not only in the body. It is immanent also in pathways and messages outside the body; and there is a larger Mind of which the individual mind is only a subsystem. This larger Mind is comparable to God and is perhaps what some people mean by "God," but it is still immanent in the total interconnected social system and planetary ecology.

Freudian psychology expanded the concept of mind inwards to include the whole communication system within the body—the automatic, the habitual, and the vast range of unconscious process. What I am saying expands mind outwards. And both of these changes reduce the scope of the conscious self. A certain humility becomes appropriate, tempered by the dignity or joy of being part of something much bigger. A part—if you will—of God.

If you put God outside and set him vis-a-vis his creation and if you have the idea that you are created in his image, you will logically and naturally see yourself as outside and against the things around you. And as you arrogate all mind to yourself, you will see the world around you as mindless and therefore not entitled to moral or ethical consideration. The environment will seem to be yours to exploit. Your survival unit will be you and your folks or conspecifics against the environment of other social units, other races and the brutes and vegetables.

If this is your estimate of your relation to nature and you have an advanced technology, your likelihood of survival will be that of a snowball in hell.
You will die either of the toxic by-products of your own hate, or, simply, of over-population and overgrazing. The raw materials of the world are finite.

If I am right, the whole of our thinking about what we are and what other people are has got to be restructured. This is not funny, and I do not know how long we have to do it in. If we continue to operate on the premises that were fashionable in the prescybernetic era, and which were especially underlined and strengthened during the Industrial Revolution, which seemed to validate the Darwinian unit of survival, we may have twenty or thirty years before the logical reductio ad absurdum of our old positions destroy us. Nobody knows how long we have, under the present system, before some disaster strikes us, more serious than the destruction of any group of nations. The most important task today is, perhaps, to learn to think in the new way. Let me say that I don't know how to think that way. Intellectually, I can stand here and I can give you a reasoned exposition of this matter; but if I am cutting down a tree, I still think "Gregory Bateson" is cutting down the tree. I am cutting down the tree. "Myself" is to me still an excessively concrete object, different from the rest of what I have been calling "mind."
The whole text of this talk (the kind of thing that has to be read a few times before the full, underlying meaning becomes clear) can be found on my web site, here:

http://www.rawpaint.com/library/bateson/formsubstancedifference.html

"Learning to think in the new way" means recognizing that human life and the life of the ecological system are NOT two separate systems; they are interconnected. It is actually more than that: Consciousness is universal, not something that belongs only to me or you or "I" or someone else. We're talking about a completely different epistemology, a different paradigm, one which the Elites throughout all time have worked against by shepherding humankind toward COMPETITION for resources--watever they might be. Only the great sages and mystics saw the truth: We are ALL One Living Being. Without this understanding, we do not simply 'go mad'; we ARE mad. Our epistemology is flawed and the ultimate consequence of that for any species is an inability to adapt to the actual laws that govern all of life.

The bottom line in our age is that the Elites and their global banking concerns and their international corporations cared more for THEIR bottom line than the human consequences of their actions. With REAL leadership, human society could already be well on its way to a renewable energy infrastructure that would make sense within the total ecological system. However,that would have meant a radically DIFFERENT social power structure and the Elites who make the real decisions were too greedy and stupid to understand the inherent flaw within their own thinking. Now they are going to take us over the brink into a global petrochemical resource war.

Even if we were to arrest all these MANIACS for crimes against humanity and publicly behead them on the White House Lawn--precisely what should be done--we would still be faced with the very real possibility of ecological collapse due to overpopulation and a century of increasing reliance on nonrenewable energy.

Make no mistake about it, though, barring complete overheating, the planet is capable of getting rid of human civilization and its toxic side effects. Systems tend toward ballance--and when it gets too far out of whack in one direction, the pendulum inevitably swings back in the other. At times with a vengeance. Right now the rumblings under the Indian Ocean may be a portent of things to come. The seismic activity CURRENTLY being recorded is unprecidented. Some fear the Adaman Plate itself may be collapsing.

Either way, hold on to your hat, it is going to be a bumpy ride.
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Mabel Dodge Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Oh man do I agree with you!
Neither the Conservatives nor Liberals will touch the issue of population control. The Conservatives see it as anti family values and the Liberals see it as potentially racist.

Somebody better deal with it soon, or it's going to be too late for all of us.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. pollution and toxins, etc. will take care of breeding:


sperm counts are down

the number of fertility shops are growing

the number of disabled babies is growing

sexual anomalies are becoming mainstream

gynecologists, pediatricians should start to talk about it, something seems to be keeping them mum
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. What planet earth needs now more than ever
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 02:13 PM by Submariner
is a supervolcano eruption (currently overdue at Yellowstone) like the last one at Toba to douche about 90% of the humanoid population from the ecosystem. Until science can rid the earth of the Freeper/repug gene the supervolcano seems the best population control tool.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. Nature will destroy us as we are destroying her
but it won't just be the freepers who die. You and I will go along with them, as will all the creatures of this earth.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
26. Bush: 'more bad science and fuzzy math'
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LiberallyInclined Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
27. If the other nations get on board with Kyoto-
Or if they wake the fuck up and decide it's past time to go even further than Kyoto calls for-

and the U.S. under bush/repuke rule refuse to go along, and continue with our high falutin' lifestyles and our high pollutin' ways...

at what point, and how far does the rest of the world act to either get us in line, or get a lot of us the fuck off the planet(i.e. nuc-u-lear vaporization)?

has anyone else considered that perhaps david ickes is right, and the current dynasty occupying the white house is really a bunch of shape-shifting lizard beings trying to warm up the planet- to make it more hospitable to their kind?
c'mon...you know you've thought about it...
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. Who cares? We'll all be dead!
<sarcasm>
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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. Global warming claiming prehistoric glaciers
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050130/NEWS07/501300335/1001/NEWS

CHACALTAYA GLACIER, Bolivia - Up and down the icy spine of South America, the glaciers are melting, the white mantle of the Andes Mountains washing away at an ever faster rate.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Goody, goody!
Maybe all that water will drown that damn gay Sponge Bob and his homo friends. <sarcasm off>

Left of Cool
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I Bet Those Bastards At The Carlyle Group have Purchased Hawiian Tropic
n/t
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. Will feds rename Glacier National Park when all the glaciers are gone?
Edited on Mon Jan-31-05 07:09 PM by goodhue
And what of Many Glaciers Lodge, when there are not many?
Sadly we will learn that answer to these questions in our lifetimes.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. kick
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-31-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
38. When the water is gone whats going to happen???
7 years isn't long!!! and Glaciers are ireplaceable!!!
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. The oceans will lose salinity
which will stop the Gulf Steam-them bring on another ice age and the superstorms!

Terrorists are nothing compared to what climate change can do to us.
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