Saudis consider nuclear bomb

[no one in particular]

Ewen MacAskill and Ian Traynor in Vienna
Thursday September 18, 2003


Saudi Arabia, in response to the current upheaval in the Middle East, has embarked on a strategic review that includes acquiring nuclear weapons, the Guardian has learned.

This new threat of proliferation in one of the most dangerous regions of the world comes on top of a crisis over Iran's alleged nuclear programme.

The rest of the story - http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1044380,00.html

[GCP]

1. Two and a half years in power and the world has turned to shit

Thank you fucking much, Chimp.

[Zero Gravitas]

10. You got that right

Thanks a lot George you greedy dumb shit.

[Carmerian]

2. How about...oh...Russia?

"A strategy paper being considered at the highest levels in Riyadh sets out three options:

· To acquire a nuclear capability as a deterrent;

· To maintain or enter into an alliance with an existing nuclear power that would offer protection;

· To try to reach a regional agreement on having a nuclear-free Middle East. "


I am still amazed that just about the entire press has glossed over the meeting between the Saudis and the Russians a couple of weeks ago.

[Wwagsthedog]

20. More than a meeting.

Didn't they sign some bi-lateral agreements? Oil & gas contracts maybe? Didn't the Russians just tell us to kiss off concerning ourselves with their nuclear business in Iran? Yes, the plot is thickening thanks to our geniuses in Washington.

[NNN0LHI]

21. Yes they were talking about more than just oil deals as I had suggested...

...a few weeks ago. Russia is in the process of really sticking it up Juniors nose. The Russians will be moving into the Prince Sultan Air Base that the US just moved out of very soon. If they are not in there already. And the Russians and the Saudis will then co-own together most of the worlds oil supply.

Don

Bush has really fornicated the canine this time

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=261545

NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-03 08:29 PM

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-russia-saudi,0,3748682.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

Saudi Crown Prince to Visit Moscow

September 1, 2003, 3:51 PM EDT

MOSCOW -- In the first visit to post-Soviet Russia by a Saudi leader, Crown Prince Abdullah is expected to focus on convincing Moscow his country does not tolerate terrorism, despite Kremlin contentions that Chechen rebels get Saudi help.

Riyadh has faced widespread international criticism for being unable to control terrorist organizations allegedly operating in Saudi Arabia. Fifteen of 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were Saudis.

"Saudi Arabia is naturally now administering serious diplomatic activity to convince the world that it does not support this sort of tendency," said Professor Vladimir Isayev, deputy director of the Institute of Oriental Studies in Moscow. "Saudi Arabia is a country, it seems, on the verge of being a social outcast."

more


What does the US do when Russia gets invited to take over and send a few dozen MiG and Sukhoi Fighter Jets to that formerly US owned state of the art air base that tha US built in Saudi Arabia for billions of dollars? How much of the worlds oil supply does Russia control when that happens? We have Iraq but can't get a drop of oil out of the place before someone blows up the pipelines needed to get the stuff out of there.

Yes. Russias military is nothing compared to ours. But what good is our superior military when the Russians have the capability to turn our country into a burning cinder within 30 minutes? Tell me. What good is it? I will tell you what good our military is. Its worthless. Russia will be able to dictate the price of oil. That is worth repeating. Russia will be able to dictate the price of our oil. And even how much we are allowed to purchase. Think about for a minute. We are phucked. Little boots is dealing with a former KGB agent who has probably done things in his life that would make Saddam Hussein blush. You think I am joking? I am not.

We got suckered into going into Iraq. It don't make no difference if we stay in Iraq or not at this point. No difference at all. We are phucked either way we go now. Did Junior think Putin just forgave the US for what we did in Afghanistan when we supported Osama bin Laden and his crew to help defeat the Soviet Union or screwing Russian oil companies out of their oil contrats with Saddam? Kind of like bygones are bygones? Ha! Who is kidding who here? The Russians don't forget shit like that. Never.

When you hear about the Russians inking a deal to move into that Saudi base, you will be seeing the end of the United States as we know it today. Forget about Iran, North Korea, and Bush's "axis of evil" crap. That is nothing but smoke and mirrors, encouraged by Russia. We are about to see the changing of the guard of super power status. And we will not be one. Better start learning how to speak Russian my Democratic friends. Because its all over now but the crying. You watch and see. I think I am beginning to realize who was really behind 9/11 now. And it wasn't some nut in a cave either.

Don

[Carmerian]

25. Why, lookie here!

http://nytimes.com/2003/09/18/international/europe/18CHEC.html


Russians suddenly trying to get out of Chechnya as quickly as they can. Hmm, why would they want to do that?

[kentuck]

33. After Bush protected them by not exposing the 28 pages in 9/11 report...

...and after they have driven up gas prices by withholding oil from the markets...after they have made friends with the Russians...After this Administration permitted 140 of their countrymen to fly out of the country even as former VP Gore could not get on a flight??

[NNN0LHI]

34. "permitted 140 of their countrymen to fly out"...

...including memnbers of the bin Laden family. Must be why Bush said he doesn't think about Osama too much anymore last year?

Don

[northernsoul]

41. Don, you must be a helluva chess player

You're seeing the moves developing several steps down the line - probably very much like Mr. Putin does (I believe that Chess was a mandatory part of the Soviet ciriculum back in the day, as well as being the Russian national sport). Meanwhile, our man at the board is still trying to figure out which way his little horsey thing goes...

I hope you're wrong, but I won't be surprised if you're right.
:scared:

[htuttle]

53. Chess is actually Putin's second most favorite hobby

Putin's favorite hobby is Judo. He's a highly regarded, olympic class competitor who's written a number of teaching books on the subject (look him up at Amazon...).

Consider that carefully -- I think it reveals a lot about how Putin gets things to happen.

Judo.

[northernsoul]

54. which lends even greater credence to Don's theory

Isn't tricking your opponent into defeating himself one of the core strategies of Judo?

If you've ever watched an Ultimate Fighting event, you've probably seen how the ju-jitsu practioners almost always wear pugilist opponents into humiliating submission...

[DeathvadeR]

51. whahahahahahaahaha

ahh just bend over and take it. I'd rather be Red then Dead.

[Equinox]

37. Yeah...this doesn't look good....

Fucking asshole in the WH....if we were really concerned about democracy, none of these countries would need nukes. Everyone would be content.

Fuck face and his war on terror is going to blow this planet up.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Do you really think so?

If the Arab nations were all democracies, most would vote in Muslim leadership that would want nukes.

[Forkboy]

46. How do you know that Muddle

besides your seeming inherent mistrust of all things Arab and Muslim?

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. My read of the situation

In Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in Syria and the rest of the Arab world. Feel free to disagree, but I don't democracy changing their desire for nuclear weapons.

[aneerkoinos]

52. Perhaps something to do with Israel nukes? n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. Or the Arab world's hatred for Israel

Take your pick.

[NNN0LHI]

57. The Arab world didn't hate Israel before 1948. Why is that I wonder? n/t

[Wednesdays]

47. Because...?

[Terran]

35. Hmmm, I thought they already had such an alliance

with the US. Have things changed that much?

[Torgo]

3. Just what the world needs!

Tens of thousands of Saudi Royal Family members and Wahabi Clerics fighting over who gets to use nukes!

Man that is dangerous!

[UpInArms]

4. do you feel safer now?

Until now, the assumption in Washington was that Saudi Arabia was content to remain under the US nuclear umbrella. But the relationship between Saudi Arabia and the US has steadily worsened since the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington: 15 of the 19 attackers were Saudi.

It is not known whether Saudi Arabia has taken a decision on any of the three options. But the fact that it is prepared to contemplate the nuclear option is a worrying development.

United Nations officials and nuclear arms analysts said the Saudi review reflected profound insecurities generated by the volatility in the Middle East, Riyadh's estrangement with Washington and the weakening of its reliance on the US nuclear umbrella.

I know I surely do not.

* and his stupidity has definitely made this world a much less safe place.

edited for bad html :(

[no one in particular]

6. In the words of Bush...

Bring 'em on!

Sometimes I wish I didn't bring children into this fucked up world.

[genius]

5. The guys we claimed did 9/11 were Saudis.

It's not okay for anyone else to defend themselves but the ohme of the 9/11 hijackers can have nukes. I guess Dick and George are planning the next terrorist attack to be nuclear.

[Julien Sorel]

7. Even regime change at home isn't going to calm things down.

There's no guarantee that another one won't happen along some time. Once people feel insecure, it's very hard to restore confidence. The chimp has really fucked the world up.

[tlcandie]

44. BB, I totally agree! We will never get back to where we were

in our diplomatic relations. Their question will always be, "And what if another * gets elected into the presidency?" Diplomacy may be extinct regarding the USA and we will have to start from ground zero and TRY to earn our wings back...which could be maybe 100 years from now if we walk the walk? Of course, this is IF anyone is around then due to the nuclear proliferation these days and the instability that * has created worldwide.

This war has been about stealing the very soul of America and putting down the progressives within her borders and around the world. How can anyone or anything ever be the same? This is cataclysmic. It just remains to be seen whether it can be worked into something good for all or if we will forevermore live in a black hole. :(

[bowens43]

8. thanks bush

[toska]

9. Pakistan would sell them some

The rumors are that the Saudis funded Pakistan's research efforts. If so, they could easily get one from them.

[evworldeditor]

11. Iraq Too

I recall one commentator -- don't remember who, there have been so many -- alleging the Saudis also originally funded Iraq's nuclear weapons research to the tune of about $10 billion.

If so, here's another fine example of the West's petrol dollars at work, thank you.

[Bandit]

49. And you believe that???? Ha Ha Ha ha ha Ha

No evidence of any Nuclear weapons or even research towards developement has been found since the early ninties. It would seem plain to me though that every country would want to be in the Nuclear Club after watching how we deal with N. Korea.

[frank frankly]

12. We can sell them a Mini Nuke!

We should have a surplus of them really soon!

[Nottingham]

13. Saudi Sheik gets a Catalog Buy a Nuke! Does he want Blue or red

all of a sudden Saudis want to go Nuclear

[Vitruvius]

14. The Saudis have oil. Bu$h invades countries that have oil. Of course

the Saudis want nukes.

[Not a robought]

15. I'll bet you a North Korean nuclear missile that

this is a bargaining ploy.

[UTUSN]

16. Oh, Well---------It's ----the SAUDIs----------That's O.K.!!!!! n/t

[are_we_united_yet]

17. OK now I I'm scared. n/t

[are_we_united_yet]

18. delete

[keopeli]

19. The Saudis are obviously starting to think post-*.

They don't need nukes with friends in the WH, but if we get someone else in there...ANYONE else really...they'd better be panicing. Listen, a real President, and a real Administration, will finally start fighting the terrorists and those who support them. Those who are terraists, like N Korea, will be able to stand down. See kids, this election is really high stakes. We complained about the past few elections being boring. Well, this one is going to knock our socks off.

Make no mistake. <gag! I hate that stupid phrase!>

IMHO

[tlcandie]

45. Then again, maybe they know something we the people do not

know? Maybe they know that we will never be rid of * ? Just a thought since the people are always the last to find out all the underhandedness, shadow and dirty dealings that *co has in the works.

[maggrwaggr]

22. I wish I could get a weapon that would protect me from Bushco

Who can blame them?

If Iraq had nukes, it wouldn't have been invaded.

The Iraq war made one thing perfectly clear: If you have nukes, we won't invade you.

What's everybody gonna do? Get nukes!

thanks Bush!! :) In Texas they say "An armed society is a polite society". I guess you think that works for the world as a whole, no?

[Djinn]

24. Bloody Hell

Great the Wahhabis AND the Zionists will both have nukes - can't see any problems there! :nuke:

[Equinox]

40. No shit...

not a good mixture.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Zionists

The term means anyone who believes that Israel is homeland to the Jewish people.

[BattyDem]

23. Ok ... so thanks to Bush

the Iraqis won't have WMDs but everyone else will. Gee, I feel safer already! :nuke:

[Resistance Is Futile]

26. Saudi nukes = al Qaida nukes

This is one of the very few cases where premptive war would be justified. A nuke in Saudi hands could go utterly anywhere when (not if) the place has a revolution. This is in addition to the fact that not all members of the state aparatus are entirely peace loving, if you get my drift...

Still, Saudi nuclear aspirations are the logical response to PNAC's desire to take over the middle east in the name of Israel and empire. They can't exactly be blamed for not liking the idea of winding up on the wrong end of either the Kissinger doctrine (steal their oil) or the PNAC doctrine (occupy their country).

God only knows how the US junta will react if Saudi does develop or buy a nuke. PNAC wants to take over the world, starting with the middle east, and Saudi nuclear arms will stand in their way. On the other side of the coin, the US imperial family has many business connections in Saudi--it will not be profitable to bomb them. An epic battle between the PNAC crowd and the conventional nepotists seems likely. The final outcome, however, is less than certain.

[JNelson6563]

31. One of the first things I thought of

you mentioned:


A nuke in Saudi hands could go utterly anywhere when (not if) the place has a revolution. This is in addition to the fact that not all members of the state aparatus are entirely peace loving, if you get my drift...

There's going to be upheaval there you can bet on it. As horrified as some of us are (like those of us who know about it) with America's ruling family, the BFEE, and their ties to the House of Saud, some in Saudi Arabia are of the same mindset regarding that relationship.

As it happens those folks are the ones likely to be in charge once the overthrow is complete.

Good thing the Simian has expended so much of our resources in Iraq, the non-threat. This could rapidly escalate--knowing Team Bush's propensity toward bluster and diplomatic pokes in the eye when they feel threatened on any level. This should be interesting....

Julie

[northernsoul]

39. House of Saud is the Romanov Dynasty of the 21st Century

I agree that it's a matter of when, not if, that country falls into the hands of radicals who will inherit the old regime's economic and military apparatus. Unfortunately, our current regime is too deeply entangled with the House of Saud to do anything very constructive about this.

Is anybody else here envisioning some kind of bizzare "Mexican Standoff" between the U.S., House of Saud, Al Queda, and Israel?

[david_vincent]

43. Well, northern, the first thing that came to my mind...

is that it'll only be a matter of time, once the Saudis get nukes, before the Wahabbis steal one as an inside job. It won't even be necessary for the Saudi government to fall for this to have big, big consequences. It would only take a handful of Wahabbi sympathisers in key places for them to steal one, and we all know what a slippery slope religion is when it comes to expressing/proving levels of belief among a group. Once they steal a nuke, it's straight into the hands of al Qaida. Given the difficulty of attacking Israel with it, it seems that it would be far easier to attack the U.S., by, say, smuggling it aboard a cruise ship. Bye bye, Miami!

[aneerkoinos]

27. Next president of US

better get serious. First thing to do is get rid of Israel's nukes, no matter what it takes. Threat of total embargo should be enough.

As long as Israel is armed with nukes, there is not much that can be done if Iran and SA really wan't nukes, cause they have a very good reason to wan't them. There's also this little thing called hypocrisy, and because of that US can only bully Iran and SA, not persuade. And that's no good, we know what happens to bullies, sooner or later.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Never happen

Israel won't get rid of its nukes because they protect it from being overrun. A U.S. president who pushes this will lose and destroy his party in the process. Americans LIKE Israel.

[aneerkoinos]

55. Yep, dem evil bloodthirsty towelheads

with nothing else on their mind but destroying jews.

So you are saying US can't protect Israel, that the leader of the world with hordes of nukes and strongest army in the world can't guarantee the national safety of it's closest ally, that American LIKE, and therefore Israel needs nukes. Do you even understand how lame your argument is?

Let's see, what's your other argument? Oh yes, you say that Americans are dumb hypocrites. Well that's okay then...

[Pert_UK]

28. It's OK - the Saudis are our friends! And anyway,maybe we can get rich...

on this - let's SELL them the nukes ourselves!

YAY!!!

Continuing the tradition of selling / giving weapons to people if they really, really promise not to shoot us with them, as successfully applied by the West throughout the Middle East and beyond.

P.

[NNN0LHI]

32. I really dout that Junior would sell them any

The "man of peace" Sharon would never allow him to do that.

Don

[Booberdawg]

29. Oh Christ, what next. WWIII is getting closer..

[ze_dscherman]

36. The Star Attraction

By A. Paul Weber

www.weber-museum.de

[Capn Sunshine]

48. Damn, that is awesomely good

[E_Zapata]

58. Don't forget about CHINA's meeting with Putin

What we have is an orientation of the future superpowers of the world:

RUSSIA
CHINA
India
Saudi Arabia
Iran

We just thought the cold war was over. I think the analogy to Judo by Putin letting the enemy take himself out is about right.

Cold War:

Phase 1 - 1950's to 1989 (and the wall falls)
Phase 2 - let the remaining "superpower" screw itself; take its hits and bullying and calling the shots with stride 'for a while'
Phase 3 - The big takeover. And we see that happening.

In essence - the USA totally blew it. We had an opportunity - a real opportunity - to make this earth a really nice place to be. We had the power and the wealth and the respect (deservedly or not). And GREED won the day. Now, destruction is a certainty.

And this is why I do not want Clark or Dean for president. No matter how well they do, they will not have the insight to diffuse this. The only candidate who is speaking of world peace is Kucinich - and he won't win the nom. Why? Because AMERICANS don't have the insight or the courage or the desire to bring world peace. Bush is a symptom of societal ills. He is not the cause. We are. We didn't demand it. We bought in to the corporatist takeover hook, line and sinker.


Oh, wouldn't it be great to have Latin America and Canada loving us right now? Or, really, just to have SOME allies, somewhere? We have none. Okay, so we have the UK and Poland and Eritrea and Spain. Would it make sense for Spain to stick with us? Oh, I forgot, we have the governments of those countries as allies; we do not have the hearts and minds of their people. See? Democracy really won't work in the favor of the USA - cause in a real democracy, the people choose their governments. Eventually, they will have governments that won't be our allies.

We have been so greedy and arrogant since WW2. I think we are going to get our due justice. Damn.

[Karenina]

59. What was Poppy talkin' 'bout with Putin?

Coupla days ago????? :shrug: HALLO, RADAR SCREEN!

[E_Zapata]

60. Maybe poppy was cutting a deal for the top 1% in the US

to escape to RUSSIA when the bombs start getting hurled at the US?

I can hear it: we have such experience in running corporations -- corruption, greed, you name it. Russia needs our kind.

[havocmom]

61. The price of sable coats and caviar

going up as the 1% of Amerikkkans move to Russia would make Putin a rich man indeed! Not hard to envision Poppy adding that tidbit to the plan.

[Radioactive]

62. Top of the shopping list!

Everybody is after Nuclear weapons now and I hate to say this but who can blame them after seeing what went down in Iraq.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. Remember the "France is our enemy" article in the Times today?

The EU just lost the Euro vote in Switzerland, Germany said they'd send troops (we still have lots of our military in Germany). A Russia-France-Arabia axis starts to sound like WWI all over again. That's just great.