Clinton in Kosovo: a welcome US would love in Iraq

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/DAH924618.htm

PRISTINA, Serbia and Montenegro, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Basking in public adoration the United States can only dream of in Iraq, ex-president Bill Clinton got a hero's welcome in Kosovo on Friday, four years after NATO bombing ended Serb rule.

Thousands of Kosovo Albanians turned out to greet the man they see as their liberator from a decade of repression under then Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic.

Schoolchildren got the day off and well-wishers waving the Star and Stripes thronged Pristina's Bill Clinton Boulevard as his motorcade drove by.

Loud applause erupted when Clinton, while also preaching ethnic reconciliation with Serbs, gave what Kosovo Albanians may be keen to interpret as implicit support for their drive for complete independence from Serbia.

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[clar]

1. Of course this is great but

I'm getting really paranoid. Is this another help Clark thing? Working towards negating the negatives in the picture regarding Clark and Kosovo by demonstrating what a great thing the US (with Clark prominently involved) did there?

Anyway, it's certainly his right, doesn't mean I have to like it.

[diplomats]

9. This has been planned for months

Long before Clark made the decision to run. Besides, the Kosovars are happy we intervened. Isn't that what ultimately matters?

[clar]

12. Of course

it's nice to see the reaction of the Kosovoans. I don't know how long ago this visit was arranged, but I knew, two months ago, that Clark was running because I read his son's posts on Kos. Yes, it was Wesley Clark, Jr. Kos verified it. I think it's been clear for some time that Clark was almost certainly running. Apart from Kosovo, I really hate thinking that there really is this whole anti-dean thing amoung party big whigs. It seems really paternalistic.

[diplomats]

16. My major point is

how is this anti-Dean? Was he a critic of the Kosovo campaign? I doubt it. This reflects poorly on Bush because it reveals the contrast with the mess in Iraq.

[clar]

19. Okay

let me explain. Dean did support it, but Clinton's visit to Kosovo showcases Clark in a big way. Take a look at my first post on this. I don't think it's anti-Dean as a single event, I think it's part of the larger stop Dean mentality that seems to have infected influential members of the party.

[AntiSmirk]

28. Oh, for God's sake clar

Why don't you worry about something important. And I wish ALL OF YOU would stop bashing each other's candidates. Keep your damn eye on the ball - Bush is the enemy not fellow Dem's.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

43. THANK YOU

Satan is better than Bush. Keep repeating that, please! Stop bashing our guys! Let Rove do that!

[clar]

46. I have never bashed a candidate here.

I like Clark. Don't know that much about him, but he strikes me as a fine guy. I've said this many times. I've long admired John Kerry. I've said that many times. Same goes for other candidates. There are a couple I haven't cottoned to. I've never posted anything against them. In fact, I've defended them from egregious attacks. Ergo, the intemperate words you aimed at me were misbegotten. Try again. This time with an apology. All I'm saying is that I don't like the paternalistic mechanations of a certain segment of the dem party. And I have every right to express that. I'm sure you agree.

[liberalmuse]

50. Not everyone at DU is this rude...

I did not see anything in clar's post to indicate he/she was bashing anyone. No one deserves to be treated like this for making a comment that was neither rude or abrasive. How about showing some common courtesy before jumping down someone's throat for 'perceived' slights?

[private_ryan]

14. we did a bad thing over there?

you're sorry not enough Kosovars were killed?

[clar]

21. How dare you?

I said absolutely nothing to lead you to that conclusion. Nothing. I supported that action, and I was speaking out about my horror over Bosnia as early as 1992.

Are you suggesting that no politician ever uses their record to advance their beliefs?

Sign me,

disgusted.

[MaineDem]

2. Excellent!!!

I'm sure * is thrilled that Bill is doing so well.

It's good to see the US being "liked" for a change.

[FireHeart]

48. My daughter was stationed in Bosnia

and the people welcomed and really cared for the soldiers, both male and female. While on guard duty, she said they NEVER gave her the slightest bit of trouble, and seemed to appreciate they were there to help. Now let's look at Iraq... :cry:

[CBHagman]

49. Thanks for the personal perspective

All I know is what I read in the papers (blush) and online, so it's often hard to tell how to read a situation. I did live overseas once myself, so I do know what you see and hear abroad doesn't always match what you read in the U.S. papers!

At any rate, the Big Dog is in the house!

[UpInArms]

3. Bill Clinton has a gift of understanding

and that may be because he grew up without "inheriting" wealth - he understands that the life is hard and how to achieve great things by being intelligent and compassionate with all people - not just a select inner circle -

He can walk with peasants and with kings on equal footing -

I miss that :(

[tabasco]

34. Qualities Bush will never have

I miss having a real leader in the WH too!

[Jennellist]

4. I'm sorry, but I don't see a lot of difference between Kosovo and Iraq

Except one of them makes Wesley Clark and Clinton sound like heroes. This whole thing smells really fishy to me. I think we are witnessing a hit on the front runner here.

[Democat]

8. On other threads you're defending Bush

Now you're attacking Clark and Clinton?

[Jennellist]

30. Can you cite any post where I've agreed with Bush?

Hell, no. You can't. So please stop with the unfounded accusations.

[Wednesdays]

51. Well, for starters...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=367021

In fact, all you have done here at DU so far is to defend Bush and condemn Clinton.

[diplomats]

10. This was planned way before Clark announced

No difference between Iraq and Kosovo? The Kosovars love us; the Iraqis don't. I'd say that's just one of many differences. This has nothing to do with Howard Dean. I wouldn't be surprised if he backed the Kosovo campaign. Most Dems did.

[Yavin4]

13. The Difference Between Iraq and Kosovo

In Kosovo, NATO and the U.N. begged us for a year for us to intervene. In fact, we were asked to intervene during the Bush I presidency. Genocide was happening in Kosovo, unlike Iraq.

Any comparison between Iraq and Kosovo is completely unfounded.

[DemVet]

52. Uhhh....no....

...that's not true. We bombed Kosovo without UN Security Council approval. Sorry, but those are the facts.

[private_ryan]

15. if I see you getting raped and mugged on the street

what should I do? Pass by or help you?

[Katie]

18. Jennellist- Apparently the people of Kosovo see the difference

They love Clinton! And why not? they asked for help, Iraq didnt.

[bluestateguy]

20. Ahem

If you read the article you will see plenty of difference. The people of Kosovo actually like and appreciate us there. Also, we have turned over most of the country to the UN and we are not seen as occupiers.

[tabasco]

36. Then why doesn't Bush visit Iraq?

And have people dancing in the streets?

[fertilizeonarbusto]

44. two words

"ethnic cleansing" That's a pretty big difference.
BTW, I like Dean, but if he wants to be president, he's going to have to deal with competition effectively. It disappoints me that many of his supporters can't understand, this is an election not a coronation, and that Clark has the right to enter the race now or at any time. That just means the Dean camp will have to work harder, that's all.
Deanites, get over it and work fairly for your man without distorting history-that's Rovesian.
This process is called "politics."

[juajen]

54. Front runners this early are fully prepared for ups and downs

I like Howard Dean. I expect him to take this like the genuine and nice person I think he is; "may the best man win." His supporters, on the other hand, are coming out swinging. Unfortunately, some are not swinging in the "right" direction. Please, all of you, keep your eyes on the prize. GO DEMS!

Incidentally, if the Clintons' support was coming your way, would you still be griping? I know I would love it if they were supporting DKucinich. I do believe they have a right to support whomever they wish.

[leetrisck]

5. Haven't you noticed the Repukes never mentioned

this war (until now with Clark). They certainly did not support the troops, Delay threatened to cut off money to the troops and the Whitewater investigation went on and on and on.

[gratuitous]

6. Clinton and Bush I: Compare and Contrast

Clinton goes back to an area of intense fighting and bloody conflict, and is hailed as a hero by the populace. George Bush Sr. goes back to Saudi Arabia after his administration's military intervention in the area, and they try to kill him.

[Bridget Burke]

11. And Bush II can't even show himself in the USA....

His only appearances are to hand-picked audiences.

I could understand security concerns, but we all know that the real problem is the little pissant can't handle himself in public. Any "question" from the press, any hint of protest--& he might just blow it.

[Nottingham]

7. Clinton did this war right! Bush did Iraq all Wrong!

this is a Wonderful Welcome

Bush won't get this kinda welcome in Iraq

[bluestateguy]

17. Clark bashers take notice

Clark will kick ass with the Muslim vote if nominated.

[aneerkoinos]

22. Anybody care to ask

how happy the large Serb and Rom minorities of Kosove are now?

Nothing really changed in Kosovo, only the name of the oppressing ethnic faction changed, ethnic cleansing is still going on...

(edited to ad: )

For the internationall community, Kosovo was a miserable failure. It was absolutely clear for anyone to see what would happen if action was not taken, ethnic conflict would turn hot, like in Bosnia. Nothing was done and it did, and there were only bad choises left when KLA (thugs and criminals and heroin smuglers, no better than Arkan's thugs) picked fight and turned the conflict hot.

Without SC blessing Kosovo set extremely dangerous example, and now we see in Iraq how dangerous that was.

There's been only one success story in Balkans and that was FYROM (Macedonia) where conflict was stopped before it went really bad.

[Corgigal]

23. Actually

I was just talking to my foreign exchange student yesterday. She's Serbian and expecting her first baby in a month.

She and her family want the soliders to stay. Her brothers now won't be forced at gunpoint to serve in the Yugo military. Her father finally can work in his native country because the currency is better and after losing their home, their business and their car, they are happy to finally be able to get things closer to normal.

Thanks for asking.

[aneerkoinos]

29. Ehm

I would not jump to larger conclusions based on one personal acquaintance's opinions.

And of course she wants the troops to stay. They are offering protection to Serbs and other minorities against Albanians. I hope Harri Holkeri, the latest governer in a long list of failures can do better job, so that ALL Kosovarians will enjoy peace and stability free of oppression soon.

The point I'm trying to do once again, two wrongs don't make right.

[Corgigal]

53. A conclusion?

OH yeah, she just lives there and finished going to the University, of course she wouldn't know. Nor would her family, nor her fellow students. Of course she honeymooned is Bosnia and didn't get killed.
She just lives there.

The average Serbians had as much control of their Govt as we do with Bush attacking Iraq.

Edit:spelling error.

[juajen]

55. OK, people, just what is the correct way to denote the people of Kosovo?

I've seen it three ways now. Does anyone want to correct any of these people? Is is Kosovars, Kosovians or Kosoveans or Kris Kringle?

[Nashyra]

24. If Clinton's visit helps Clark Great

Any help that ANY Dem gets in the press is good for the Dem party and BADDD for *. There is a difference between being pro Clark and anti-Dean, I am totally pro Clark but I am definetly not anti Dean. Absolute statements are what get people in trouble. I see nothing wrong in supporting a candidate in the primaries and then working for who ever is the nominee wether it is my first choice or last choice in the Dem party, and if I promote my candidate with his or her strong points rather than attacking another front runner there is a seamless transition to work for the eventual nominee.

[private_ryan]

25. How happy were the nazis after WWII?

who cares! They supported Milosevic and unless you bring them back they will not be happy.

[aneerkoinos]

31. You know nothing

but go on seeing world in black and white, all Albanians are good and all Serbs bad. If bigotry makes your life easier, go on, who am I to judge.

[private_ryan]

37. one day maybe I'll be as smart as you

I just remember the headlines before we went over there, that's all. It wasn't just the soldiers.

[aneerkoinos]

41. I remember the headlines too

and naturally they had certain bias, not undeserved. To tell you the truth, with very heavy heart I supported military action during that time. I have now changed my mind because of Iraq. Without example of Kosovo the Iraq war would have been much harder to sell, so history has shown Russians were right at least to some extent. My position, like I said, is that the war could and should have been avoided by taking decisive action before things got out of hand and only very bad choises were left. Everybody knew thing were going to get out of hand and chose not to do what was required.

Yes, I would like to think I'm smart, but my opinions on Kosovo have nothing to do with that. I've lived four years in Greece, which has traditional and very strong friendship with Serbia and where the Kosovo war is universally condemned and Clinton considered war-criminal. I don't share the very strong Greek sentiments, but I've been exposed also to the other side of the story, which is not widely told in media elsewhere.

I hate all chauvinist nationalism and in Balkans there's too much of that in every nation. It's not called powder keg without reason. During the breaking of Jugoslavia West made mistake after mistake, including Kosovo, and got it's act together only at the crisis in FYROM, so I'm not willing to give hero's mantel to Clinton, Clark or anybody else. Well, Martti Ahtisaari did OK at that time, but since then he's joined the Carlyle guys and now I hate him too.

[private_ryan]

45. they are two sides of the story of course

but the chances of everyone being wrong but the Serbs are not that high. Kosova was not the first one....

[aneerkoinos]

47. How depressing

that you might imply that I would think that Serbs (which Serbs?) were righ and everybody else wrong.

If that's what you are implying, either you don't comprehend what you read or there's something badly wrong with my communication skills. May I ask you to be kind enough to read again what I wrote. I don't see things in black and white, good guys and bad guys.

[CRYINGWOLFOWITZ]

26. progressive internationalism vs blatant antagonism

THIS is the difference between the GOP and the dems. The GOP invades countries calling themselves "liberators" and giving the figure to the rest of the world. The dems go in multilaterally, which, among other things, gives military operations ligitimacy. Clinton never called the Kosovo war a war of "liberation" but the Kosovars now call it just that. God I miss Clinton. This is the kind of foriegn policy that will win us back the WH in 2004. Bush is very vulnerable.

[priller]

27. Read the Joseph Wilson interview

with Josh Marshall at TPM if you want to see what the differences are between Kosovo and Baghdad. Night and day, my friends, night and day.

Bill Clinton Boulevard. "So what", says Shrub, "I got an airport named after me!"

[juajen]

56. WTF, what airport?

N/T

[Ouabache]

32. This results from a TRUE coalition and international agreement

The Kosovo intervention was a a multi-lateral agreement of the UN, NATO, and many of the European neighbors of Kosovo.

Iraq attack and invasion was a unilateral decision forced upon the world by the hawks, including Junior, of the Bush administration. The UN, Europe generally, and the Arab world all warned against going it alone in Iraq.

See the difference?
Where is the dancing in the streets and the flower-throwing civilians?
Where is American boys blood in the gutter and more RPG attacks yet to come?

[swinney]

33. CLINTON LOVED IN KOSOVO--AND AROUND THE WORLD

NEVER FORGET THIS ONE FACT----PRESIDENT CLINTON HAD THE HIGHEST APPROVAL RATINGS OF ANY PEACETIME PRESIDENT IN ASIA,EUROPE AND AFRICA.

HE LEFT OFFICE WITH HIGHEST RATINGS IN HISTORY.

HAD HE NOT MESSED WITH MONICA HE WOULD BE NOMINATED AS POPE.

BILL CLINTON IS NO PHONEY--HE IS GENUINE WONDERFUL, CARING. LOVING OF ALL PEOPLE WITHOUT PREJUDICES.

PEOPLE MEET HIM. PEOPLE LOVE HIM. THEY FEEL HE CARES FOR EACH ONE.

[aneerkoinos]

40. LOL

Having a soar throat after all that yelling?

Have, by any chance, ever been to Greece? I doubt, otherwise you would know that Clinton is and was not universally loved...

[swinney]

35. 113 REASONS WHY I ADORE BILL CLINTON

Tried to get Universal Health Care
National Health Care Costs rising at 10% per annum. Cut to 3%
Deficit Reduction Package
Crime Bill
100,000 cops on street—crime down down down
Welfare Reform-- Mend do not end. GOP helped bit time
80% increase in child welfare payments
Job Growth-Record 236,000 per month. (Reagan/Bush 167,000)
Largest percentage of Americans working in history
Largest Home Ownership in history
Record number of small business formations
Tax Cut for 15 million working families
Family and Medical Leave Act
Defense Reinvest and Conversion—Bush enjoying weapons created by Clinton
Direct loan programs for students
Guts to put promises in a book "Putting People First"-58 promises in book. Took action on 56 in first two years.
Second best record in history for getting legislation through Congress in first to years. LBJ number one.
Reinvented Government—cut payroll
Fewest number of civilians on federal payroll in 36 years
Attacked cop killing nasty rifle association.
Attacked the cancer inducing tobacco industry
Promoted a global effort to ban abusive forms of child labor
Loan 12.8 Billion to Mexico. Made 800 Million profit. Kept Mexico afloat.
Wash. Post kept list of campaign promises. 162. Took action on 96% in first two years.
Took on prejudice toward other Americans in military
Took on his own Southern Baptist Church
Hard smart work in Middle East and Bosnia-Kosovo
Honored with all of the following:
Dove of Peace Award
Rabin-Peres Peace Award
Gandhi Peace Award
Order of Good Hope Award
Nominated for Nobel Peace Award
Northern Ireland Peace Agreement
Lifeaholics of America Award for Quarter Century "Working for a Life Not Just A Living".
First President to visit Northern Ireland
Cleanup of Toxic sites. Record
Increasing weekly earnings
Shoo Shoo Saddam get away from Kuwait
Stopping Haitians from drowning enroute to freedom
First to visit South Africa
First to make a determined effort to help the African continent come together and grow together
Taxing top 1.2% of very wealthy to get Zoom Zoom Boom economy
Stopping Republicans in the House from raiding Medicare of 181 Billion
Stopping Republicans raid on Medicaid
Stopping Republicans raid on education
Stopping Republicans attack on environment
Largest increase in Education funding since GI Bill
Increased funding for Head Start
Nafta.. A success until the Peso went south
Submitting 8 budgets close to rate of inflation
Brady Bill
Gaat
Assault Weapons Ban
Telling Japan "You take our auto parts or we will apply tariffs on you
California Desert Protection
Forest Management Plan for Northwest
Restoration of Florida Everglades
Preservation of land in Utah
Major increase in funding for homeless
Motor Voter Act
Lobbying Reform Effort. Handshake with Newt who reneged
Pressure to get Campaign Finance Reform.
National Export Strategy. Unbelievable success.
Over 250 Trade pacts
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Pact
Summit of Americas
Super 301
Chemical Weapons Ban Treaty.
Bottom Up Review of Military
Agreement with Cuba to stop flow of immigrants to USA.
Ameri-Corps
Reduced Nuclear Threat Around the World
Community Banking Act
FEMA used as an active participant and a leader in disaster relief
Tax on well off social security beneficiaries
100,000 new teachers effort
5,000 new classroom effort
50% of classes thru K-12 on internet
Fourth Graders improvement on world tests
Lifetime Learning Opportunity Program
Controls on Spending and Borrowing
Pension Protection Act of 1994
Record high consumer confidence
Very, very, very low Misery Index
National Agenda on Racial Prejudices
First to get African-American unemployment under 10%
Balanced Budget
Record Corporate profits
Record Bank profits
Record Savings and Loan profits
Never whining despite non-sop smears and attacks
Not having a Mean Bone in his body per Historian David Maraniss
Not knowing how to hate
Classing others as "opponents" not "enemies"
Inviting your attackers to the White House functions
Inviting your defeated opponent Bob Dole to visit troops at Christmas
A national attack on hate crimes
Fighting to protect "legal" immigrants from Republicans in the House.
Fighting hard for Fast Track legislation
Kennedy and Kassenbaum Portability of Insurance
Lowest interest rates in 30 years
Allowing millions of homeowners to refinance home loans at lower (much) rates
Lowest unemployment in 25 years
Lowest inflation in 25 years
Lowest welfare rolls in 27 years
Lowest crime Rates in 25 years
First balanced budget sent to Congress in 29 years
Protecting worker pensions (repeat?)
Opposed ban on "Late Term Abortions"
A stock market which passed a 1,000 mark six times
Greatest growth in federal revenues in history
Played Saxophone and Smoked Peace Pipe, instead of beating War Drums like____.
One of History's all time workers for Peace
President in a year when Fortune Magazine classified it as "Greatest Economy in the History of the world"
Popularity jump in the midst of a scandal.
President with highest peacetime popularity in Asia, Africa, Russia and Europe.
Highest popularity of any president at end of fifth year in office
One of the most highly regarded First Lady in History.
One of the most highly regarded Vice-President in History

[DemExpat]

38. WOOHOOOOOO!

Bill's the Best!
What a list.

:kick:

DemEx

[Ashcroft Kutcher]

39. I wish I lived on Bill Clinton Blvd.

best street name. ever.

[Catherine Vincent]

42. Me too!

I love that man!

[juajen]

57. Me, too

How come we don't have lots and lots of things named after him in this country? After all he did for us, it should be Clinton, D. C.! I want them both back; though, I guess you could say we still have them. Hill is doing great as Senator. She'll make a wonderful President. Can't wait!