Republican (Coleman) visits Cuba, hardens embargo position

[Nambe]

U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman, a Republican from Minnesota, is reportedly hardening his position on Cuba just 24 hours into a visit to the Communist-run nation, a source in his four-member delegation told Reuters on Saturday.

Coleman has in the past favored easing the more than four-decade- old U.S. embargo on Cuba, even though U.S. President George W. Bush strongly supports the sanctions. ---

Coleman is chairman of the Western Hemisphere Subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and a member of the Senate Agriculture Committee.

The senator planned to also explore the sale of agricultural products to Cuba from his state, which is a major food producer. ---

[goobergunch]

1. *watches Rove's hand...

which is currently up Coleman :puke:'s back*

[Osolomia]

11. All the Dem prez contenders are saying the same as Coleman!

Isn’t it hypocritical to be criticizing Coleman for using exactly the same pretzel logic all the Dem presidential candidates are using to justify maintaining the embargo despite the bipartisan majority across the country that wants it lifted?

[no name no slogan]

13. Not Kucinich -- he favors lifting the embargo

According to his campaign website, Kucinich favors lifting the failed embargo.

Just providing a little information for your reference :D

[Osolomia]

17. So? How much does Kucinich count around here?

Why are so many DUers critcizing Coleman for saying exactly the same thing that 99.99% of the Dems candidates are saying? Or should this really be called the Hypocritical Underground?

[Mika]

20. Wes Clark suggests that we should end the sanctions (a cold-war head)

http://www.meetclark.com/faq/index.asp?faqid=22

“The way to deal with Castro is to send Cuba American tourists, American goods and American farm products. There could be no better way to deal with this last vestigial form of Communism than to turn American business and American agriculture loose on them.”

Its a little thin on details, but I expect some extrapolation on his position soon.

So far, it seems his objective for ending the US embargo on Cuba is to to destroy Cuba's system of government by turning American biz loose on "them". As if Cuba hasn't had every kind of foreign biz from all over the rest of the world "turned loose on them", and that somehow American biz entering the scene in Cuba will have some sort of magic voodoo midas touch that convinces Cubans to give up their hard won sovereignty and hard won fully built-out socialist infrastructure (universal high quality health care, education, participatory representation, etc) and to just let the US and and the CANF minions roll their country over. HA! What's Wes smokin'?

___


Dems who support ending the embargo on Cuba (without BFEE/CANF stipulations -so far)

Carol Moseley Braun
Dennis Kucinich
Wes Clark

That's 3 out of 10.

[Osolomia]

23. If this is the best the Dems can do then God help us!

Fri, Sep. 19, 2003

Presidential candidate Clark's first stop is in Broward deli
The retired general says he wants to 'listen to people' before taking stands on issues such as the Cuba trade embargo.
BY PETER WALLSTEN AND ERIKA BOLSTAD
Miami Herald

... He offered a stump speech devoid of detail, and then in an interview late Thursday with The Herald -- one of his first since entering the race -- studiously tried to avoid being pinned down on any specifics.

He explained that he just wants to ''listen to people'' before saying where he stands on topics such as the trade embargo with Cuba, the economy and immigration policies.

... On the trade embargo with Cuba, an issue critical to hundreds of thousands of Cuban-American voters who could play a decisive role in the election next year, Clark said he understood both positions and said ``there are a lot of complexities there.''

But the former chief of the U.S. Southern Command, who oversaw military operations in Latin America and the Caribbean, said he is inclined to favor engagement as a means to democratization.

''If you look at the way we operated in Eastern Europe, we were effective in taking down communism because there was no embargo,'' he said. ``The Iron Curtain was something they built, not something we imposed.

''The best way to remove those regimes was the way that we did it,'' continued Clark, who led NATO forces as supreme Allied commander during the liberation of Kosovo. ``We brought Western companies in, we worked with their governments. Bit by bit those people realized they didn't have a system that worked and that they wanted a democracy like everyone else in Europe.''

... Informed that his position may anger Cuban-American exile leaders, who have been courting Democratic candidates out of anger at the Bush administration for a perceived lack of attention on Cuba, Clark said, ``I respect the Cuban-American community.''

More...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6808621.htm

[Osolomia]

26. Montana sets a better Cuba course

Sunday, September 21, 2003

Summary: After 40 years of sanctions, we know what hasn't worked to foster democracy. Trade holds more promise.

It's not often that Montana sodbusters and cowboys have a chance to inject sense into U.S. foreign policy, but that's exactly what a delegation to the state did recently. Joined by Montana's Democratic Sen. Max Baucus and Republican Rep. Denny Rehberg, a Montana delegation traveled to Cuba at mid-month and negotiated an agricultural trade agreement with the island nation.

Like most moves toward freer trade, the deal promises to be mutually beneficial. Willing sellers of grain and livestock in Montana have found willing buyers in Cuba. It's what makes the world go 'round.

The astounding thing is that, while perfectly legal, such trade contradicts offical U.S. policy toward Cuba. The United States has for over 40 years maintained a trade embargo and restrictions on travel by Americans to Cuba - ever since Marxist Fidel Castro rose to power and that unpleasant business involving Soviet missiles. Just days ago, President George W. Bush reiterated his vow to veto any attempt by Congress to ease sanctions against Cuba. He's playing to the expatriated Cubans in Florida who vote Republican, a fact that had something to do with Bush election in 2000. They're guided by hatred for Castro, which is understandable. As president, though, Bush is supposed to be guided by U.S. interests.

More...
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2003/09/21/opinion/opinion1.txt

But Dem presidential candidates aren't. Go figure!

[goobergunch]

54. The Dem presidential candidates are wrong on this too

However, Coleman :puke: earlier indicated his possible interest in lifting the embargo. I'm fairly sure that he's changing his position on Rove's or Cheney's orders.

[Osolomia]

58. Coleman, however, said....

Coleman, however, said releasing some or all of the 75 dissidents "would be a good gesture," and would "increase the prospects" for U.S. support to end the trade embargo and travel restrictions.

http://news.nasdaq.com/news/newsStory.aspx?&cpath=20030922\ACQDJON200309221342DOWJONESDJONLINE001038.htm

Sorry, but the Dems who are sound asleep at the wheel make Coleman look good!

[Brucey]

2. Coleman is major sleazy.

Don't believe anything this guy says... can't think for himself; does what is expedient and pleases the bosses. Major scumbag. We hate him in Minnesota. Wellstone would have beat him, but Paul died in an accident (or was it?) and was replaced by Mondale who had less than a week to campaign. Mondale tore into Coleman in a debate on the radio, which very few people heard. Repugs blasted the Wellstone memorial service all over TV and radio, and things were downhill from there. Coleman gets media coverage better than he deserves. Everyone in Minnesota thinks he was a great mayor of St. Paul because the media said so. In fact, Minneapolis (with Dem mayor) beat St. Paul in nearly every economic and quality of life measure during Coleman's tenure. We also had rigged election machines that added to the problem. Anyway, Coleman won, and now we're stuck. BTW, Minnesota is becoming more like Montana by the day.

[MrsMatt]

10. everyone in MN thinks Coleman was a great mayor?

As a voter residing in St Paul during Coleman's tenure, I can tell you that many of us thought he was a crappy mayor.

In the senate election, he didn't even CARRY St. Paul.

[no name no slogan]

12. Right on, MrsMatt!

I'm in Mpls myself, and you are absolutely correct RE: Coleman. Especially the bit about his Senate run where he didn't even win St Paul, his "base of support".

Coleman is the worst sort of politician who does whatever it takes to get elected -- EVEN SWITCHING POLITICAL PARTIES when it's expedient.

Did you know that Coleman was the chair of the Clinton/Gore '96 campaign in MN (back when he was a DINO)?

Did you know that he was 'hand-selected' by the DickCheney to run for senate, because they thought that Pawlenty was easier to beat?

This man is beyond contempt. Let's run this bastard out on a rail in 2006.

[newyawker99]

31. Hi MrsMatt!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[realFedUp]

3. misleading headline...

if he's still exploring ways to sell agricultural
goods from Minnesota, why would his postitions on
the embargo be hardening?

:shrug:

[koopie57]

5. well, as a minnesota voter

it really isn't a misleading headline cuz coleman is not only worthless, he is stupid and proud of both qualities. I suspect he spoke before Rove knew his mouth was moving and that once coleman bent over for the latex gloved hand of Rove he once again said what he was suppose to say. And in all actuality, who listens to this guy? Everyone knows he wears Bush's old underpants and loves how they feel.

[Judi Lynn]

57. Norm's misrepresenting himself on the Senate Working Group

and has signed a statement he obviously has voided. You're absolutely right.

Here's the statement:

(snip) March 21, 2003



Dear Senators Frist and Daschle:



We are writing to inform you of our intention to launch the Senate Working Group on Cuba. The Working Group will examine U.S. policies toward Cuba, including current trade and travel restrictions.



The sanction policy of the United States has been ineffective since it was adopted in 1962. Other nations trade with Cuba, and their producers benefit from that trade. The U.S. policy places our farmers, workers, and companies at an international competitive disadvantage. By some estimates, the United States loses out on an export market of nearly $1 billion per year.



Current U.S. policy also hinders our ability to interact with the Cuban people by restricting American citizens’ right to travel to Cuba. We believe that the American people can have greater influence on Cuban society by developing a relationship with the Cuban people. That is the only way to influence the peaceful transition to democracy and a market-oriented economy.



We are pleased with the formation of this group and look forward to working with you on matters related to Cuba.



Sincerely,



Max Baucus Michael Enzi

Byron Dorgan Chuck Hagel

Maria Cantwell Norm Coleman

Blanche Lincoln Jim Talent

Jeff Bingaman Pat Roberts

http://www.cubafoundation.org/RELEASE-SenateCubaGroup-0303.24.htm

Pathetic, isn't it?

[Osolomia]

60. Are any of the others in the Senate Working Group waffling?

Or is it just Coleman and the Dem prez contenders?

Before Bush and James Cason provoked the crackdown on Cuba’s “dissidents” it was expected that a veto proof majority in the House would vote for Flake’s amendment and 70-80 Senators would vote for Baucus’s version of the amendment to lift the travel ban.

If I’m not mistaken, about the same number of House Dems voted for Flake last year, in other words, they weren’t swayed by the crackdown and neither were 53 Republicans so I wouldn’t expect Dem Senators to be either. So where does that leave Bush and his Batistiano friends if the Senate passes it in the next week or so besides blowing a major gasket? What will they come up with this time to justify vetoing the bipartisan majority who want the travel ban lifted now?

[Judi Lynn]

61. Time is of the essence, right?

They've either got to go for broke, and pull off an "Operation Northwoods" to give them the excuse they need AGAIN to sabotage the new legislation, or they'll have to use the last crap they've been peddling, which isn't going to make any new converts now. Everyone who was going to buy that bunk already has. Everyone else undoubtedly would prefer to find out more.

Their biggest U.S asset is citizen ignorance, oh, yeah, let's include laziness.

Anyone who never stirs himself to think about anything, to question what he has been told is just what the doctor ordered for the _Bush bunch.

[Osolomia]

62. Time's up! This pretzel logic from Florida shows they’re squirming already

Broaden Cuba Travel Bill

South Florida Sun-Sentinel Editorial Board
September 23 2003

For the second year in a row, the House of Representatives has voted to lift a 40-year ban on travel to Cuba. President Bush has vowed to veto the bill.

Rather than continue the déja vu script, the bipartisan majority that supports the legislation should rework their bill to offer a broader Cuba policy that aids the efforts of political and economic reformers in and outside of the Cuban government.

Fine-print language written into a fiscal 2004 appropriations bill, HR 2989, would keep federal funds from being used to penalize Americans going to Cuba. This would effectively suspend rules prohibiting travel for most Americans. Currently, only U.S. citizens who are not of Cuban origin, journalists, academic researchers and members of other exclusive groups can legally travel to Cuba.

Lifting the travel ban is overdue. The U.S. government should restrict travel by its citizens only to countries with which it is at war, or when there is an extreme national security concern. Cuba does not meet either condition today.

Still, rather than using a back-door channel to remove the counterproductive travel restriction, the House should present a more comprehensive piece of legislation.

More…
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/editorial/sfl-editaftravelbansep23,0,7937248.story?coll=sfla-news-editorial

[Judi Lynn]

63. That's very direct language coming from a paper in Ft. Lauderdale

isn't it? Years ago there would be NO CHANCE of getting any neighbors to Miami uttering a squeak of objection to the official position of the CANF. It would get them far more trouble than it could ever be worth.

That's going to earn them a few bomb threats, no doubt. Remember what they did to the previous publisher of the Miami Herald, David Lawrence:

(snip) In March, the Scripps-Howard Foundation gave its Service to the First Amendment award to David Lawrence Jr., publisher of The Miami Herald, for a series of columns he wrote after Mas launched a campaign against the Herald and its sister publication, El Nuevo Herald, in January 1992. Lawrence had editorialized against the so-called Cuban Democracy Act. Designed by CANF, the legislation to tighten the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba was about to be introduced by Torricelli and Graham. Mas denounced the Herald as a tool of Fidel Castro. Death threats and bomb threats followed against Lawrence and other Herald executives. Newspaper vending machines were smeared with feces. Recognizing that it takes courage to disagree with Mas Canosa, the Scripps-Howard Foundation praised Lawrence's "brave, balanced reaction in the face of threats both to his life and to his profession." (snip/...)

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JBFranklins/canf.htm


(snip) In the following weeks, Herald vending machines were stuffed with feces and silicone gel, and
there were bomb threats against the newspapers' offices. David Lawrence received numerous telephoned
death threats, three of which were deemed serious enough for police investigation. Upon the advice of
police, Lawrence and his wife now start their car each morning with a remote control device.(snip/...)

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/U/US/US928.PDF


(snip) The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.

That was in January, but editors at the Herald still feel besieged. Foundations ads saying "I don't believe The Herald" in Spanish are appearing on Dade County buses. Lawrence has heard that foundation people are sounding out advertisers over whether they would support a boycott -- a troubling prospect in a recession.

Coverage of the foundation and Cuba is now carefully scrutinized, Herald reports say. "There has been a watershed in how we operate with Cuban questions," says one staffer, who requested anonymity. "Before the campaign, Cuba issues were dealt with in a routine way." (snip/...)

http://www.cjr.org/archives.asp?url=/92/3/miami.asp

[WillParkinson]

4. Ah yes, that great trade embargo...

It's worked so well for the last umpteen years.

[joshcryer]

6. Heh, so I guess all those anti-Colman comments were...

...warrented, huh?

[piece sine]

24. maybe, just maybe....

His staff read them and concluded they nothing to gain to staying put and towing the White House line. The downside of flaming is that it scorches your chances to turn somebody around. "Duck and cover" trumps "Stop and listen." Coleman wasn't cut enough slack with the Left wingers he tried to appease so now Cuba pays. Again.

[Osolomia]

25. Instead of bashing Coleman, DUers could take action

if they wanted to:

Important Vote on Travel rights to Cuba Coming to the Senate in September. Act Now!

On September 9th, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to give Americans their freedom back: the freedom to travel to Cuba. The Flake amendment to the Transportation, Treasury and Independent Agencies Appropriations bill passed the House with a 227-188 vote. This amendment would end funding for enforcement of the travel ban to Cuba. In the next few weeks, the same amendment will be introduced in the U.S. Senate. Now is the time to contact your Senators with a message that is simple, direct, and clear: Vote for Freedom, lift the ban on legal travel by Americans to Cuba.

http://action.ciponline.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=11673

[joshcryer]

35. I contacted.

Let's see what good it does.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. So... in 24 hours he understands everything there is to know

about Cuba?

Having traveled abroad myself, I know that about all you learn about a new country in the first 24 hours is, "This isn't like home."

[Mika]

8. Thats 24 hours more than..

That's 24 hours more than some of the DU Cuba "experts" that flame me (and others) for being part of the "insane pro Cuba crowd" here.




Let's review the reports of his trip so far.
According to the stories, he's 1)- working a deal between "his" state and Cuba (which is good for farmers and Cubans, if true), 2)- he's meeting openly with so called "dissidents" some of whom are financed by CIA/NED/USIA funds (which should be good to the anti Castro crowd), 3)- he's eating meals in privately owned restaurants in Cuba (which is good, read: there is expansion/integration of capitalism in Cuba).

So far, so good.


The utter hypocrisy is his hardening of his trade stance while at the same time negotiating a deal between some of his state's agri businesses and the Cuban government. WTF?



Aside from Coleman's hypocrisy on trade w/Cuba and his regurgitating the anti Castro CIA/NED/USIA line of BS (and his being a revolting cretin repuke), all other news about this trip is good, so far.

[no name no slogan]

14. Agribusiness (specifically Cargill)

Good point RE: agribusiness. Cargill, the nation's largest privately-owned company, is based here. They're also responsible for much of the grief that family farmers have suffered over the past two decades. My (family farming) inlaws could tell the story better, but they're computer illiterate, unfortunately :).

It's funny, because Ex-Governor Jesse Ventura went to Cuba for the same reason a couple of years ago-- and for the same reasons as Coleman did. Although Jesse Ventura was our state's A#1 Asshat, he at least was in favor of lifting the trade sanctions against Cuba.

There's a lot of big bidness in this country that CAN'T WAIT to get their paws on Cuba's resources. They're longing for a return to the "Good Old Days" of the pre-1959 Batista regime when Cuba was a de facto state in the US. Hopefully, post-Castro, the country will be able to retain ownership of its nationalized assets and won't allow transnational corporations to turn Cuba into a nation of indentured corporate servants.

I can't wait until 2006.....running this bastard out of town on a rail will be a pleasure!

[scarletwoman]

9. If you've never seen the "Bushboy" flash animation, you're missing out!

Go here: http://www.bushboy.com/flash/bboy.htm

See the full BushBoy website here: http://www.bushboy.com/ -- great stuff from a disgusted Minnesotan -- and occasional DUer! You can sign up for his "Lapdog" newsletter too!

sw
(another disgusted Minnesotan)

[dflprincess]

15. My God, I'm psychic and never realized it

This is just what I predicted would happen in the original thread on that weasel's visit to Cuba:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=121626

"They're up to something, Shrub isn't going to risk alienating the Cuban vote in Florida so my bet is he's sending Normie to try and appease one side, but Normie will come back and say things are so horrible we just can't open up relations."

Okay, maybe I'm not psychic, I just know what to expect from Normie.

BTW, not only did he not carry St Paul in the last election, he didn't carry a single precinct, not even his own.

[Wickerman]

16. Of Course Normie is now expert on Cuba after 24 hours---

he has no shame. He sez whatever he needs to say to make the Rove gang happy. He is a real case. He goes to the Bush" school that believes information isn't required, you can go by gut instinct. He's so damn clueless that Bob Dylan is one of his favorite artists. How can you be such a shameless Repug and still pretned Dylan is your favorite artist? Answer, you never listened.

Us Minnesotans are ashamed of him.

[dflprincess]

18. When he was endorsed at the Republican State Convention

he actually had the gall to sing "The Times They Are a Changing". Enough of it that he certainly violated copyright. I didn't hear anything about him doing that again and I've often wondered if Dylan had his lawyers send a cease and desist order (purely speculaton on my part).

At concerts he performed immediately following Wellstone's death, Dylan dedicated this song and "Forever Young" to Wellstone. My brother, a Dylan fanatic, says that Bob rarely even speaks at his concerts and doing these dedications certainly was a sign of Dylan holding Wellstone in high esteem.

[Wickerman]

22. I heard about that.

but fortunatly got the TV off before he started. It truly pains me to see him in Paul's place, and then to further desecrate his place by even uttering Dylan's name just kills me...

[Love Bug]

44. Remember when Ventura went to Cuba last year?

I remember the shrub admin. making noises about how they didn't think it was a good idea for him to go and Jesse went anyway. They knew they couldn't control him. Notice the complete silence from them about Coleman's trip. That tells us all we need to know about who Coleman works for (not his constituents, that's for sure).

[DemonFighterLives]

19. He's a joke

Case closed. His dissidents that he's talking to are trying to disrupt something that maybe doesn't need to be disrupted. Now, I don't claim to know everything about Castro, but Carter and others thought it would be OK to open relations and it appears that is so. Castro does what he felt he had to, to stay alive and keep his country viable. U. S. needs to lay off in my humble opinion. Coleman and Bush don't have a clue and I hope none of their cronies ever profit from Cuba.

[Democat]

21. Coleman is Bush's puppet, don't be tricked

The guy is scum.

[peacetalksforall]

27. Coleman is slime and Cuba should be scrubbed with

an antiseptic.

Coleman is a puppet of Bush, Bush is a puppet of Cheney and the CABAL. That makes Coleman a puppet.

The right wing is going to abandon the Cuban-Americans in favor of giant corporations, but they are going to make the words coming out of slime-balls sound like it's embargo as usual.

You should all feel sorry for the CABAL...they have to worry about the votes of the Cuban-Americans at the same time they have to allow their partners, the corporations, to make big money. I think I'm going to cry for them.

You can count on one thing - the CABAL will not do one thing that represents decency of diplomacy, nor will they represent the little farmers, nor will they lose that Cuban-American vote - you know, Jeb has to remain Governor even after his brother is disgraced.

They will never acknowledge that the Berlin Wall came down for Cuba when Raygun raiders said the wall came down for Germans.

[peacetalksforall]

28. And remember, there are a lot of politicians on both sides

taking Cuban American money. They can milk it for as long as Castro lives for that is as long as Cuban Americans will have all the special privileges and taxpayer money flowing in to them which they just love to share with Dems and Pugs.

[Osolomia]

29. Then how do you account for the BIPARTISAN MAJORITY

all across the country who want the trade and travel ban lifted NOW?

How do you account for the bipartisan majority vote in the House last week and the bipartisan majority vote expected in the Senate this week despite Bush's threatened veto?

Who's forcing the Dems to pander to the extremist right wing minority and ignore the bipartisan majority?

[peacetalksforall]

30. Who FORCED them to embrace the right wing position on Cuba?

Past tense? I'd like to know why Dem politicians took money from the Cuban American associations with NED facilitating - money that the taxpayers lost in politburo manueverings. Speculation is that they took it because it was there and they thought they might get votes. A better question is WHY DID DEMS VOTE FOR ALL THOSE RIDICULOUS POLICIES IN THE FIRST PLACE - going back 43 years. It may have been justifies in the beginning because the communist ride we took. It was ridiculous later.

Present tense? A few in each party have too much pressure on them from the corporations. And they must have now realized that the payola could not have lasted forever.

But I think everything going on right now is a farce...the CABAL with the help of Dems will come to some middle ground where they can still talk about the horrible communism of Castro and do business and keep trying to get the votes.

This entire fraud should come to an end.

There are so many screwed up premises that it is impossible to keep a straight face or explain positions. Stupidity and hypocrisy rules.

[Osolomia]

32. Just “a few”? 53 Republicans defied Bush in a vote on “freedom” last week!

Screw the bipartisan majority and don’t listen to a word they’re saying because stupidity and hypocrisy rules, even on DU. That sounds like quite the winning ticket for the Democratic Party in 2004 eh? What a shame!

The Rest of the World has been unanimously condemning the embargo for over a decade now, Americans are the only people on the planet who are so incapable of reconciling their relations with Cuba that they remain travel banned to this day.

I agree it’s a farce and a fraud but Dems can’t afford to ignore it for much longer imho. There’s a whole slew of events coming up that’s going to keep Cuba policy in the spotlight and Dem presidential candidates and their supporters better have their act together by then or look like morons on the world stage for the 4th US presidential campaign since the Soviets left Cuba.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Freedom?

The day that Cuba has that commodity, a lot of people will support ending the embargo. That day is a way off sad to say.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Osolomia]

36. Yet more articles for Dems to ignore since that seems to be

the best they can do while pandering to the minority:

Common sense on Cuba
Palm Beach Post Editorial
Monday, September 22, 2003

The United States has tried using sanctions to undermine Fidel Castro for four decades, with none of the desired results. Only political pandering or Cold War thinking can explain continued support for the same failed approach.

The Bush administration has embraced both. But two weeks ago, the House defied a threatened presidential veto and voted to lift restrictions on travel to Cuba and to remove the caps on money U.S. residents send to families on the island. The rationale behind the vote was common sense: The more Americans go to Cuba, the more they could export American ideals and values; putting more money directly into the hands of the Cuban people helps empower them to overcome their oppressive circumstances. Anyway, caps on remittances are impossible to enforce.

In recent months, the White House has felt political heat from Cuban-American state legislators, who predictably have urged that the archaic policy continue. Just as predictably, President Bush gave reassurances that included meaningless indictments of three Cuban military men implicated in the downing of two Brothers to the Rescue airplanes in 1996. Reelection politics will ensure that the White House keeps Castro in its cross hairs and the failed embargo in its speeches for 2004. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, point man for legislative demagoguery, makes the tired claim that more travel will help Castro. How can any new policy fail more than the old one?

Recent attempts to lift travel restrictions have found consistent support in the House but stumbled over cold feet in the Senate or veto threats. This time, senators appear poised to embrace reason, too. Americans clearly want to embrace the Cuban people. The Clinton administration encouraged "people-to-people" exchanges, allowed under existing law, and the number of U.S. visitors to Cuba climbed to more than 200,000 during 2001. The Treasury Department says about 160,000 Americans, many visiting family members, went to Cuba legally last year, despite the Bush administration's restrictive policy.

More...
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/monday/opinion_f3d67d2dd2f122830052.html?urac=n&urvf=10642365123220.31037774060958256

Getting personal with Cuba
Trade missions may succeed where embargo has failed
September 21, 2003

Isolating Cuba has done nothing to break Fidel Castro's grip on power. Talking -- and trading -- might.

Last week, the Manatee County commissioners expressed general support for a proposal by Port Manatee officials to join local business leaders on a trade mission to Cuba later in the year.

David McDonald, the port's executive director, said he and others hope to visit the ports of Havana and Mariel and meet with Cuban trade representatives. The port also intends to spend $15,000 to hire the president of the U.S.-Cuba Trade Association to serve as a consultant.

It's a worthwhile venture that is likely to pay off for Manatee and other Southwest Florida communities now and in the near future. It's also likely to pay off for Cuba.

As we've said before, local government officials in the United States shouldn't engage in free-lance diplomatic missions, especially ones that contradict federal policy.

But common sense, compassion and America's self-interests argue for re-establishing connections with Cuba. At this stage in Castro's tottering regime, a person- to-person exchange -- be it cultural or commercial -- will probably do more to initiate change than the continuing U.S. embargo.

More...
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030922/NEWS/309220418/1030/OPINION01

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. Tottering

If Castro is really tottering, then you shouldn't have long to wait. Whenever the great dicktator dies or falls, you can expect a wave of support to end the embargo.

[Osolomia]

40. You’ve been using that deluded excuse for over a decade now

So long as pathetic excuses is the best the Dems can do then no wonder so many voters are fed up and looking for progressive alternatives even if that means supporting the bipartisan majority in the face of a lack of any credible Dem policy.

”This is an issue of freedom for Americans. Let me repeat that. This is an issue of freedom for Americans.
Jeff Flake (R ) during debate on the amendment to lift the travel ban against Cuba, 9 September 2003

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r108:20:./temp/~r108kYfGDR:e32434:

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. LOL

Personally, I haven't been using that excuse for over a decade.

In our nation, our government represents us. That government -- both sides of the aisle -- has for decades refused to normalize relations with Cuba. We are free. We elect representatives and they have decided this.

I wish America would do this more often, not less.

[Osolomia]

42. LOL! Who on earth do you think you're fooling?

So these bipartisan majority votes in the House last week are just figments of the imagination and Congress is blatantly lying through their teeth about how the votes went? If you believe that you're a better moron than Dubya!

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=483
http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=484
http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2003&rollnumber=488

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Sorry

But multiple admins of both parties have elected to keep El Presidente embargoed. Personally, I like the idea. Now if we would only embargo other corrupt dicktators.

[Osolomia]

47. So you support Bush’s minority rule

so typical of gusanos in the banana republic, if it wasn’t for the BFEE they’d be melba toasted by now, right?

[joshcryer]

52. We only embargo our "enemies."

We never embargo our "friends." Since we're not consistant on this matter (ie, embargo any and all dictators), how could you trust the administration of any president (espexially one whose election was in question)? The rational course of action is to look at where our elected representatives opinions are.

Not blindly trust the central authority like you're doing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. No nation is perfect

So we embargo one scumbag dictator. It's a start. But let's keep going. How about Kim Jong Il or Mugabe?

I don't blindly trust the authority. I happen to agree with the ongoing choice. Silly me, I don't like dictators.

[Osolomia]

37. FYI to NYCers who want to know and learn

A Peoples Educational Forum with
Felipe Perez Roque
Cuba's Minister of Foreign Affairs

Keynote speaker, Felipe Perez Roque, in New York City for the opening
of the United Nations General Assembly, will address the latest
developments in US-Cuba relations, Cuba's assessment of the
international situation, an update of the achievements of the Cuban
Revolution and its international practice and the Cuban Five currently held in U.S. federal penitentiaries.

The evening will include a program of solidarity messages, spoken
word, cultural performances and inspirational music. At this critical
time, this is an important occasion for Cuba's friends to demonstrate
their solidarity with the people of Cuba!

Saturday, September 27th - 6 P.M.
Church of Intercession 550 West 155th Street
Washington Heights, New York City
IRT #1& 9 or IND C subway trains to 157th Street

Hosted By Harry Belafonte & Jane Franklin

Donation $5 (admission with ticket)

For tickets, endorsements, Journal ads and information:
212.926-2730 E-mail: Sept27welcome@y...

ENDORSERS:

Rev. Luis Barrios, Ph.d, John Jay College*
Elombe Brath, Afrikaleidoscope, WBAI*
Brecht Forum
Casa de Las Americas
Caribbean & Latin America Support Project (CLASP)
Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES)
Committee in Solidarity with Venezuela
Cuba In Focus, Monthly Radio News Magazine
Cuba Solidarity New York
Debby Smith, Michael Smith - National Lawyers Guild*
December 12 Movement
Dominican Friends of Cuba
Freedom Socialist Party
Fundacion Andres Figueroa Cordero
Haiti Support Network
Hartford Coalition on Cuba
Harlem Tenants Council
IFCO/Pastors For Peace
Iglesia San Romero de las Americas-UCC
International Action Center
International Concerned Family and Friends of Mumia Abu-Jamal
Jane Franklin
Jericho Movement
National Committee To Free The Five
Kangaroo Productions, Inc.
Rev. Earl Koopercamp, Saint Mary's Episcopal Church*
Michael Tarif Warren
Evelyn Warren
Movimiento la Pena del Bronx
New Jersey Network on Cuba
National Network On Cuba (NNOC)
New York Free Mumia Abu-Jamal Coalition
No War On Cuba Movement (Washington, DC)
ProLibertad Freedom Campaign
Partido Nacionalista de Puerto Rico, Junta de Nueva York
Patrice Lumumba Coalition
Radical Women
Red Indigena y Popular de Chile
Don Rojas, General Manager, WBAI Radio*
Socialist Workers Party
Trabajadoras por la Paz
Unidad del Pueblo Dominicano
U.S./Cuba Labor Exchange
U.S.-Cuba Youth Exchange
Venceremos Brigade
Vieques Support Campaign
Sally O'Brien - Where We Live Productions
Rev. Lucius Walker
Young Socialists
Workers World Party
Working Group of the Socialist Front of Puerto Rico (WGPR/SF)

[Osolomia]

38. If Bush hadn't provoked the crackdown what excuse would y'all have?

What was the Dems excuse for maintaining the embargo before Bush and James Cason provoked the crackdown courtesy of US taxpayer financing? The pretzel logic of Americans never ceases to disgust.

Minnesota Sen. Coleman says timing not right to end sanctions in Cuba

HAVANA (AP) _ Visiting U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman said Sunday that he still believes American restrictions on trade with and travel to Cuba should end _ but not right now.

Ending the four-decade-old sanctions would send the wrong political message amid continued human rights concerns after a major crackdown on the opposition in March, Coleman told a small group of American reporters here.

"I think about the folks in prison and what message that gives them," the Minnesota Republican said.

American moves to eliminate the sanctions have "been building for some time, but it's not there yet," said Coleman. "And the March actions create a problem."

The crackdown put 75 dissidents behind bars for terms ranging from six to 28 years.

More...
http://www.kmsp.tv/news/politics/story.asp?content_id=1601979

[Judi Lynn]

43. The only relationship Bush has had with Cuba

has been a sadistic one. He's not representing the people of the United States, as the polls reflect, as well as the annual passage of anti-embargo legislation in our Congress.

Norm's smell evidently preceded Norm in Cuba:

U.S. Sen. Coleman shunned by Castro on Cuba trip

By Marc Frank
Reuters
Posted September 22 2003, 2:20 PM EDT

HAVANA - Sen. Norm Coleman pressed human rights issues on a visit to Cuba and was shunned by President Fidel Castro, who usually meets with visiting U.S. lawmakers.

``President Castro's people called Sunday night and said stand by in the hotel, but they never called back,'' a member of the senator's delegation said on Monday before Coleman, a Republican from Minnesota, left Havana after a three-day trip.

Foreign observers in Cuba said they could not remember when Castro had missed a chance to chat with a visiting U.S. lawmaker. U.S. legislators have made numerous visits to the communist-ruled island in recent years.

Coleman, who is running President Bush's reelection campaign in Minnesota, used his trip to announce he was backing away from a previous position of seeking to ease the four-decade-old U.S. embargo on Cuba, because of deteriorating human rights on the island.
(snip/...)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-922cubashun,0,331441.story?coll=sfla-news-caribbean

[Osolomia]

48. What concerns me is the Dems relationship with Cuba

being expressed by the leading 2004 presidential candidates. If they're any different than Coleman's then please do show and tell!

[Judi Lynn]

45. Some students speak on their Cuba trip, from Norm's own state!

This is too rich:

Campus


September 22, 2003


U students meet to discuss summer exchange to Cuba
By Jessica Weaver
niversity students who participated in the International Youth Exchange in Cuba this summer talked about their experiences Friday night at an event sponsored by the Minnesota Cuba Committee.
About 20 University students attended the eight-day exchange to Cuba. The group of about 300 Americans who toured the University of Havana and cultural sites in Cuba. They attended lectures and also went to the 50-year celebration of the Cuban revolution.

The event comes slightly more than a week after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to ease restrictions on travel to Cuba.

“It was one of the most fulfilling experiences of my life — being young and alone on such a controversial island,” said Vanda Smrkovski, a first-year Spanish and geography student. “Many of the people were the brightest, most cultured, globally aware people I’ve ever met.” (snip)

(snip) The participants cited the differences in Cuban society. Zach Larmore, a senior in political science and philosophy said he tried to explain homelessness to a young Cuban boy he met. The boy had no concept of it, Larmore said. (snip/...)

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/09/22/6632

[peacetalksforall]

49. This is amazing...

no concept of homelessness.

Someone should start arranging a lecture tour so that Cubans can travel around our country to tell our people how to survive on very little to nothing.

[Osolomia]

51. Bush would deny the Cubans an entry visa

just like he did to the Latin Grammy nominees and a long list of other notable Cubans who have been denied visas by the USA in the past few years, and Dems won't even blink.

Bush won't even let Cuba's trade minister into the country that's why a steady stream of Americans are having to go to Havana to negotiate and sign all the trade deals going on since that historic trade fair in Cuba last year.

[Osolomia]

50. Interesting what you find in smaller newspapers eh!

“Many of the people were the brightest, most cultured, globally aware people I’ve ever met.”

No wonder the Rest of America is more in tune with what’s going on than the mass media infotainment junkies who don’t seem to have an iota of a clue and cling to the government lie.

Why are US taxpayers spending zillions on shortwave radios for Cuba's "dissidents" when no one else in the country seems to have any difficulty finding out what's going on?

[Mika]

53. Its amazing what people who have actually been to Cuba have to say

Most all seem to come back having joined the "insane pro Cuba crowd".

Hmmm. Must be in the water there. ;-)



"Why are US taxpayers spending zillions on shortwave radios for Cuba's "dissidents" when no one else in the country seems to have any difficulty finding out what's going on? "


It is ludicrous that so many Americans believe that they (and their system) possess some sort of 'midas touch of freedom', and that Cuba can't function without it, as though contact with these special creatures called "Americans" and American business will somehow magically bless all of Cuba with god's gift to the world - American style so called freedom and democracy.

Yeah right. As if.

[Osolomia]

55. Activists at Common Ground, Blethen, Maine 09/21/2002

Sunday, September 21, 2003
Activists at Common Ground
By COLIN HICKEY, Staff Writer
Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.

UNITY — Susan Nichols came to the Common Ground Fair on Saturday to urge people to oppose the United States' economic blockade of Cuba.

... Social and political action is as much a part of the Maine Organic Farmer & Gardeners Assoc.'s annual fair as the organic food and agricultural displays and presentations.

.... Nichols, a 60-year-old social worker from Sabattus and volunteer for Let Cuba Live, said she developed her social conscience during the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

... Nichols visited Cuba last year as part of a group known as Pastors for Peace. She returned with a glowing opinion of the country, the only Communist country in the Western hemisphere, that dictator Fidel Castro has ruled for more than 40 years.

"It opened my eyes to what a country can do if it is truly dedicated to improving the lot of all of its people," she said.

Nearly 300 people had signed Let Cuba Live's petition to end the economic blockade and travel restrictions to Cuba.

More...
http://www.centralmaine.com/news/stories/030921common_g.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

56. Policy of our own Cuba Working Group in the House of Represenatives

U.S. House of Representatives

Cuba Working Group

“A Review of U.S. Policy Toward Cuba”


May 2002


Summary



I. Repeal the travel ban - The Cuba travel ban is an unwarranted intrusion on the rights of American citizens; it criminalizes normal and constructive activity by American citizens, and it closes off a powerful source of American influence in Cuba.



II. Allow normal, unsubsidized exports of agricultural and medical products - Far from focusing attention on Cuba's failed domestic policies, U.S. restrictions send the signal that American wants to use economic deprivation as a tool for political change.



III. End restrictions on remittances - Remittances make a crucial difference in the well being of many thousands of Cuban families and help free them from dependence on the government. They also enable many Cubans to acquire the modest resources with which to start small enterprises, further expanding independent sectors of the Cuban economy.



IV. Sunset Helms-Burton in March 2003 - The Libertrad Act of 1996, also known as “Helms-Burton,” was enacted on the premise that it would disrupt the Cuban economy and topple the Cuban government, by tightening aspects of the embargo. We support passage of legislation to sunset Helms-Burton seven years after enactment in March 2003, to allow a debate on the merits of reauthorization provisions of this law.



V. Repeal Section 211 - Section 211 constituted an improper intervention in a private trademark matter in favor of a foreign interest, the Bermuda-based Bacardi Corporation. It breaches U.S. obligations to honor Cuban trademarks under the Inter-American Convention on Trademarks and was judged by the WTO to be in violation of U.S. obligations to protect intellectual property under the TRIPS Agreement. As a result, it frees Cuba of its legal obligation to honor the more than 5,000 U.S.-owned trademarks registered in Cuba.



VI. TV/Radio Marti - The U.S. government has spent over $400 million in taxpayer money on radio and television broadcasts directed at Cuban citizens. In principle, this is a worthy effort but in practice its record has been mixed. Radio Marti’s audience has declined to five percent of the total population, according to the latest survey by the U.S. government’s Broadcasting Board of Governors, and serious questions exist about the quality of its broadcasts and the administration of the station. TV Marti reaches no audience in Cuba and is therefore utterly without purpose.



VII. Scholarships - In place of the failed communication effort of TV Marti, the United States should promote educational programs with a proven track record that will achieve real communication between Americans and Cubans.



VIII. Expand security cooperation - Cuba and the United States share some common hemispheric security and environmental protection interests. Cuba and the United States already cooperate in a limited fashion in controlling migration and combating drug trafficking. Cuba has expressed a desire to negotiate a broad security agenda with the United States. We urge the Administration to enter such a discussion to determine whether additional agreements can be reached to serve U.S. interests.



IX. Certified Property Claims - Progress in economic and political relations eventually will require the settlement of claims for expropriations of $1.2 billion in U.S. property by the Cuban government 1959 and 1960. We urge the Administration to consider creative approaches to a resolution of the claims issue.


http://www.cubafoundation.org/CWG-Summary.htm