Maximum pain is aim of new US weapon

[NVMojo]

19:00 02 March 2005

The US military is funding development of a weapon that delivers a bout of excruciating pain from up to 2 kilometres away. Intended for use against rioters, it is meant to leave victims unharmed. But pain researchers are furious that work aimed at controlling pain has been used to develop a weapon. And they fear that the technology will be used for torture.

"I am deeply concerned about the ethical aspects of this research," says Andrew Rice, a consultant in pain medicine at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London, UK. "Even if the use of temporary severe pain can be justified as a restraining measure, which I do not believe it can, the long-term physical and psychological effects are unknown."

The research came to light in documents unearthed by the Sunshine Project, an organisation based in Texas and in Hamburg, Germany, that exposes biological weapons research. The papers were released under the US's Freedom of Information Act.

One document, a research contract between the Office of Naval Research and the University of Florida in Gainsville, US, is entitled "Sensory consequences of electromagnetic pulses emitted by laser induced plasmas".

more...

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077

[hedda_foil]

1. For use against rioters, huh?

Which rioters are they thinking of, I wonder. And why does DoD think they're going to need to inflict maximum pain on angry civilians from 2 miles away?

[Fenris]

3. That was the first thing I thought of as well.

[suffragette]

10. "The weapon, destined for use in 2007, could literally knock rioters

off their feet."

And who is it it "destined" to be used on?

[Seabiscuit]

17. ..on "we the people", of course. We'd better take back our country before

2007 in view of this. It looks like the government's preparing to turn completely fascist in 2008 when Dubya can't run for a 3rd term.

[NVMojo]

48. they must have big plans for those of us who won't "reign" ourselves in

[oneold1-4u]

99. Had you any doubts?

The results of November left me with no doubts at all. This regime knows exactly what and how they will accomplish, and have totally at their disposal, the military and (all modern weaponry) the judiciary, to form what ever type of government they wish. Without people reaching out right now for assistance from other countries to put this down, they will have no choice but to accept the final outcome! I don't believe I am paranoid to the extreme at my age having seen it occur in other countries with far less power of "presiding forces".
It's not like anything is being done in total secrecy, because we are allowed the info of their accomplishments just after they happen and all else is shoved aside in the media to announce that baby 81 is here or some other trivia. We have become a nation of TRIVIA! and every one just wants to go on playing!
I will commit to a thought that within the next 3 years, we will see many massive total power blackouts, natural gas blowouts, and fatal terror attacks throughout the country. Watch for an exodus of the political powers to safe sanctuary somewhere else, and those of us in the know with money enough to get the hell out until it is over one way or another.

[oneold1-4u]

103. Have you any doubts today???

The results of November left me with no doubts at all. This regime knows exactly what and how they will accomplish, and have totally at their disposal, the military and (all modern weaponry) the judiciary, to form what ever type of government they wish. Without people reaching out right now for assistance from other countries to put this down, they will have no choice but to accept the final outcome! I don't believe I am paranoid to the extreme at my age having seen it occur in other countries with far less power of "presiding forces".
It's not like anything is being done in total secrecy, because we are allowed the info of their accomplishments just after they happen and all else is shoved aside in the media to announce that baby 81 is here or some other trivia. We have become a nation of TRIVIA! and every one just wants to go on playing!
I will commit to a thought that within the next 3 years, we will see many massive total power blackouts, natural gas blowouts, and fatal terror attacks throughout the country. Watch for an exodus, of the political powers to safe sanctuary somewhere else, and those of us in the know with money enough to get the hell out until it is over one way or another.

[d.l.Green]

111. Or get a hold of these ourselves. We have the right, right? eom

[purduejake]

120. I'd like to think people are over-reacting...

But I'm afraid you're right. This could render entire populations defenseless against aggressive governments and could strike fear into the minds of anybody. These fascists have a plan for this weapon.

[Khaotic]

139. Dubya WILL Run For a Third Term ...

after the 22nd Amendment is revoked by the 110th Congress ... after the GOP runs the table in 2006, which will happen given more and more electronic voting machines, etc.

Shrub will be running for reelction in 2008.

[Seabiscuit]

143. self-deleted

[Seabiscuit]

146. which would trigger rioting, which is why they want this weapon.

It has no real conceivable use except against U.S. citizens who are really, really pissed off at this gang of fascist thugs who have hijacked our country, our constitution, our institutions, our economy, our retirement system, our healthcare system, and our liberties... all in the name of "Jeezus" and "freedom" and "democracy". (Yeah, they hijacked the meaning of the latter three as well).

[Katidid]

177. I partially agree with you

However, I believe that the constitution will be amended to keep the president in office during "wartime", or some such thing like that, whereas it will not be necessary for him to run for re-election ... he will just remain in the white house as long as the US is engaged in "conflict/war" somewhere in the world, or under the continuing nebulous theory of "war on terrorism".

I do not believe that Bush will ever leave the WH - ever, unless something really, really drastic happens and the people rise up and say "enough".

[raccoon]

174. Jeb will run in 2008,

I feel sure. That's why G. sent him over to Indonesia after the tsunami.

[Seabiscuit]

178. Perhaps what we're all hinting at is armed revolution

which in view of some of the possible scenarios described, may be our only recourse.

[ClintonTyree]

121. On the happy, smiling, rose throwing, liberated Iraqis?

Somehow, I don't think so. This will be a dual use weapon. It will work on towns full of people that don't appreciate being "liberated" (liberated of their lives, homes, jobs) and will work JUST as well on angry mobs, protesting in the streets (otherwise known as "citizens").
The Army LOVES a good dual purpose weapon, and folks, the Army NEVER had a weapon they didn't USE!

As for the "long term psychological effects of pain", I'm in constant pain from a failed back operation 4 years ago. I can tell you how it effects me, it ain't pretty............but if you want to know.

[Sugar Smack]

145. The implications of this are STAGGERING.

In my experience, it seems people are more afraid of "pain" than of "death". As concepts, one is unknowable and one is very concrete. You don't spend time and money developing something that won't be used. That is why this is some of the SICKET SH*T I have ever heard of. So, we're working with 4 facts from this article-

1)Excruciating pain (that may or may not effectively stop someone's heart or pinnacle their blood pressure to the point of having a stroke) is going to be used on people.

2)"Riot" and "Protest" are words, just like "Freedom" and "Democracy". They're words the bearer of the weapon may define as he wishes. The Bush administration has done something unspeakably perverse with the English Language and the Bill of Rights.

3)Is this Two-Mile away "target point" the result of making the weapon more and more powerful, and is two miles the very best they could do, for now? For some reason, I have a flashback of parade participants not being allowed to look bush in the eye.

4)This has an actual date of "Destined use"-2007.


This is sick, it is an outrage, and frankly, I have a box of things (including money & jewelry) that can be tossed into the back of my car when things start looking as horrible as they sound. Bush's absolute contempt for goodwill and those who seek it frighten me. Never mind that he's a puppet. One poster below said something that really hit the mark- the RW media can play us Liberals off as people who DESERVE to be hurt. The meanness and brutality of it are things I never thought I'd see in this country in my lifetime.

I also had no idea how happy I was 5 years ago. ClintonTyree, I'm sorry to hear about the constant pain in your back. I wish I could make it go away.

[NVMojo]

164. oh, you made me realize the "pain" and "torture" connection here

and this is too frightening to comprehend. These jerks are nothing more than sadists.

[Southsideirish]

101. "Rioters" like a peace demonstration that turned down the "wrong" street

as they did in Chicago a few years ago?

[The Backlash Cometh]

113. Maybe it's because they realize that Republicans can't steal elections

forever.

[Junkdrawer]

157. ...or few will believe the thefts...

Pseudo-Democracy: Fascism with a Happy Face

[Raksha]

159. Anything that can be used against "rioters"...

...can and will be used against peaceful demonstrators as well. So much for freedom of assembly!

[merwin]

2. I believe this is a laser of some sort that burns into the skin but leaves

no marks. It only burns a tiny tiny bit of the top layer of skin, with extreme pain. I heard something about this on Air America a while back.

[FighttheFuture]

150. Actually, it is likely a plasma stream which allows...

an electric charge to conduct along it. It's like a wireless taser.

[Randi_Listener]

4. "There's one! Set for stun!"

[Lindacooks]

5. Just more 'KKKristian values' from the lowest life forms

on earth.

Not to mention 'compassionate conservativism'.

[fshrink]

6. Bushworld at the cutting edge of progress.

The progress of the destruction of freedom, democracy, peace and prosperity.

[Erika]

7. GOP vomiting on Christ's Golden Rule

one more time. Let them meet their maker and answer to this cruelty.

[David__77]

51. Torture has been a bipartisan enterprise in this country, I'm afraid.

Democrats have been warmongers and torturers as well. The abuses in Iraq do indeed pale before the atrocities of a mass scale--rape and dismemberment--that were common practice on LBJ's watch. Clinton, too, perservered in trying to sew up US domination. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer Clinton immeasurably, but let's look to the facts.

[paineinthearse]

175. Rep. Sam Johnson's "Nuke Syria" remark made at official church event.

"Nuke Syria" was invoked at an official church event attended by the senior pastor. See details at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x15068

[Whoa_Nelly]

8. So those NOT rioting, but in the same vicinity

will also be affected.
TORTURE FOR ALL!

What about people within the range of the pain weapon who are already suffering from excruciating pain? Will the range reach through walls of certain thicknesses and effect those inside buildings, such as day care centers, hospitals, etc.?

Will this be used here to curb freedom of speech?

All in all, this news article is very disturbing.

[ClintonTyree]

122. Yep, everybody.

Women, children, pets, even other men who have NO involvement in the situation at all.........are going to be subjected to excruciating pain just because they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. I believe the Army calls it "collateral damage". Yep, collateral damage. That's what we're all destined to become.

[Emillereid]

9. The Pentagon is out of control -- they are crazy and they are going to

take the whole planet down in their madness! I mean, who the hell is the enemy! Lord, rapture me now and save me from the end-timers.

[Erika]

11. Get a grip

Let the right wingers do the histrionics.

[Emillereid]

114. Get a sense of humor!

I don't believe in the rapture!

[Judi Lynn]

13. Sometimes Rapture readiness can be misleading!

You might want to check this amazing story from a Rapture Party, 1999:

Jesus a "No Show" At New Year's Eve Rapture Party, Causing 167 Baptists To Plummet to Their Deaths

DES MOINES, IOWA (AP) Almost one hundred members of Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers and their spouses were killed at a December 31, 1999 "Rapture Bon Voyage" party. All of the women had paid Mrs. Betty Bowers $34,000 to be among the first to be taken to heaven as Jesus' special guest at the stroke of midnight. Party attendee Mr. Tommy Jenkins had reportedly told friends, "Eunice was real excited about scraping enough money together to get to go. It was Becca's college money, but Eunice knew it was End Times so there wasn't going to be no college and Mrs. Bowers always does everything really nice. Eunice wanted to go out with a little flourish."

The party was held on the rooftop of the 35 story Landover Hotel & Prayer Convention Facility. Special 40 foot golden staircases had been constructed to start the partygoers on their journey up to heaven. Hourly catering staff dressed as angels were positioned at the top of each staircase to beckon the partygoers on to Heaven at midnight. The exclusive party featured everything from Petrossian caviar to French nonalcoholic "Champagne-like" sparkling beverage for the teetotalling Baptist crowd.
(snip/...)

http://www.bettybowers.com/newsrapture.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This isn't the world I have considered "home," when ANY government would dream of using massive pain-delivering weapons, to allow them to herd demonstrators around. Surely it's just a bad dream, and we'll awaken any day.....

If we are ever allowed to have a Democratic President, you have to wonder if he/she would keep these weapons in use. At some point, large numbers of people are going to be needed to steer the country back to a more ethical position.

(I'd imagine Republicans in "disguise" are responsible the sour notes around here.)

[OneBlueSky]

18. um . . . you do understand the Betty Bowers is a put-on? . . . n/t

.

[Judi Lynn]

20. From the first. n/t

[Demit]

22. Ha! I didn't--until I noticed the acronym for that group was BITCH.

[Seabiscuit]

138. Too bad - that would have been almost 100 fewer Bushie sheeples.

[0007]

124. I thought this was funny!

You know, that Italian fellow Galileo said that stuff falls towards Hell at the same speed, no matter how heavy, but Wanda Madison, who is kind of plump, bless her heart, hit that Town Car way before Karla Johnson. And they jumped at the same time....

[MadisonProgressive]

28. Didn't someone once warn us about the unimpeded

powers of the military-industrial complex?

[Selteri]

169. It was a republican no less.

[Enquiringkitty]

12. Local police and State Troopers have been using Stun-Gun type

hand held electric pulse weapons for years. I saw on the news that one state, can't remember which, was thinking about not using them anymore after they had a couple of people die from heart failure from the shock.

[reichstag911]

137. Chicago n/t

[thecrow]

14. Soooooooo, what's goona happen in 2007

that they will need these?

My guess.... oil peaks and people just go outta their minds.

http://money.excite.com/ht/nw/bus/20050303/hle_bus-n0392031.html

KUWAIT (Reuters) - Oil prices may temporarily spike to $80 a barrel during the next two years in there is a major supply disruption, OPEC's Acting Secretary-General, Adnan Shihab-Eldin, was quoted as saying by a newspaper on Thursday.

[whosinpower]

37. Next elections are in 2008, right?

What if the fall of 2007, Bush declares marshall law and supreme leader??????

[rukkyg]

50. He doesn't need to

They control the elections.

[Seabiscuit]

141. This is like an insurance policy to them - they're afraid maybe they can't

pull off another election theft in 2008.

They probably know that they stole far more votes than Dubya won by, and it scared them. So the most Machiavellian thoughts about their motives are now fairly in play.

[Fovea]

15. Kate Bush

Experiment IV--

"They told us all they wanted was a sound that could kill someone at a distance."

[Ferretherder]

21. Love your Kate Bush reference!

...and it's kinda eerie thinking that she wrote that over twenty years ago!

[Fovea]

97. Thank you.

She is so apt.
I listened to that, and "pull out the pin"
last night, and it was a bit overwhelming.

[Ferretherder]

155. In one of the cover bands I was in, back in the 80's,...

...we did "Experiment Four", "James and the Cold Gun", "The Man with the Child in His Eyes", plus a Kate Bush/Peter Gabriel duo that I think was called "Don't Give Up".

Great time for music, in MY humble opinion.

[Fovea]

156. I think the Gabriel/Bush duet might have been

titled 'Eclipse.' It makes me weep, and it is hard to listen to.
The song 'man with the child in his eyes' was sung to me by my
g/f at the time, during my daily burn dressing changes/debriedment when I had a large 2nd and third degree burn. Another song I can't listen to anymore.

When I stroll down memory lane, I have to watch for Improvised Explosive Devices. They come in a variety of shapes, sizes and colors.

[AliceWonderland]

119. "We were working secretly

For the military.
Our experiment in sound
was nearly ready to begin..."

Sigh. Good catch on the Kate Bush.

[michael_1166]

125. Yes, Kate Bush somehow

was always mysteriously in the know...

Cloudbusting:

<...>
On top of the world
Looking over the edge
You could see them coming
You looked too small
In their big black car
To be a threat to the men in power.
<...>

The song is about the imprisonment of Wilhelm Reich, psychoanalyst and discoverer of orgone energy, to an american jail in the second half of the 1950. Then, in 1957 he got "heart-failured" there. The only thing that brought him into jail were his books, which the US government didn't like. Of course the books got burned.

Oh, by the way, there'll be a new Kate Bush CD this year. :-)

[Jonathan_Hoag]

154. Orgone energy is bullshit

That needed to be said ...

[michael_1166]

167. Must have been

bullshit the American government feared a lot.

[Daphne08]

16. Intended for use against rioters??

This is like a science fiction novel. I cannot believe this!

[ET Awful]

19. Ummm, wouldn't that fall under "cruel and unusual punishment?"

Seems like yet another evisceration of the Constitution to me.

[reprobate]

108. Oh, come on. The constitution was killed in Jan, 2001 by the USSC.

[baron j]

23. Cruel and unusual punishment, anyone?

How about a ray that forces our government to learn the constitution, and abide by it.

[cthrumatrix]

24. Compassionate Christian priorities vs diplomacy

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. It's official - I now believe in reincarnation. Torquemada is among us. nt

[ConcernedCanuk]

25. Don't kid urself, these things already exist in Iraq

.
.
.

I read about them over a year ago, and 10 seconds of googling got me this




Active Denial Technology uses a transmitter to send a narrow beam of 95-GHz millimeter waves towards an identified subject. Traveling at the speed of light, the energy reaches the subject and penetrates less than 1/64 of an inch into the skin, quickly heating up the skin's surface. The 95-GHz energy penetrates 1/64 inch into the skin and produces an intense burning sensation that stops when the transmitter is switched off or when the individual moves out of the beam. Within seconds, an individual feels an intense heating sensation that stops when the transmitter is shut off or when the individual moves out of the beam. According to reports, a 2-second burst from the system can heat the skin to a temperature of 130° F. At 50 °C, the pain reflex makes people pull away automatically in less than a second.



AND

I believe, if this is what's KNOWN

there's alot more we don't know

and the US is using Iraq and Afghanistan for it's "testing" ground

YUP

my opinion of the Military's ethics is WAY down on the scale of decency

[TygrBright]

41. Err.... you do realize...

...that the picture of the "vehicle" in your post is not a photograph, but a computer-generated art construct?

Also, the site "GlobalSecurity.org" is an information clearinghouse aimed at: "Subject Matter Experts, Senior Leaders, Junior Staff and Interns, Concerned Citizens, and News Reporters."

IOW, this is a site with an agenda. That doesn't necessarily mean that information presented on the site is not factual, but it does compromise the presentation of that information. Until you know more about the specifics of that agenda (and it's not glaringly obvious from the superficial presentation of the site,) it might be a good idea to include a disclaimer identifying information relayed from that site as the presentation of an interest group with an unidentified agenda.

The controversial, even shocking nature of the subject under discussion is an invitation to hyperbole and uninformed reaction. Such hyperbole and uninformed reaction, if it becomes too widely disseminated, can easily be used to discredit entirely valid opposition.

I am NOT advising anyone to restrict their free speech rights in responding to this repulsive idea, I'm simply saying that the stakes are extremely high, here. A "smart" response is necessary. A poorly-informed "passion" response can make it harder in the long run to quash what appears to be a truly monstrous initiative.

cautiously,
Bright

[Igel]

44. Different weapon.

One uses microwaves to induce heat in the skin.

The other uses a laser to create a plasma adjacent to (and possibly from) the skin.

[Rush1184]

26. The Millitary is full of sadistic fucks...

and this weapon is purely sadistic!

[Nimrod]

27. Your Agonizer, please.

Ever notice how what was way out in nihilistic science fantasy five years ago is now mainstream?

[CoffeeCat]

39. Wow, both of us used the word "nihilistic" to describe this...

You rarely see that word "nihilist"--but here it is--within one thread about our US government.

Kinda scary.

[Nimrod]

42. ::grins::

My signature gives my opinion on that. :) Seriously, the line between paranoid nihilism and realistic thinking seems to grow thinner every day.

[ashmanonar]

112. hmmm

Hall's Law:
Anyone who isn't paranoid simply isn't paying attention.

Murphy's Laws

[Nimrod]

116. I like that

One of my favorites: "If you're NOT depressed, you need medication".

[MisterP]

136. the site is viral!

[ashmanonar]

140. yea, i didn't realize that until after i posted.

i wasn't sure tho, i figured that it was something else. i use a mac, so i don't worry about viruses as much as other people do. and my norton picked it up right away. first virus i've EVER found.

[oneighty]

29. Remember

Every weapon known to man will eventually be in the hands of "The Good Guys" and "The Bad Guys".

Good or Bad is relative to the position of the observer.

180

[0007]

134. ...as there is nothing that is bad or nothing that is good it just is

[Briar]

30. Coincidentally

Channel 4 tv did a programme about the appalling brutality which is commonplace in American gaols, including the use of tazers, stress positions and special chairs.

And yes, it was part of their Torture strand.

[CindyDale]

31. We need to get the military out of the hands of amoral sadistic

psychopaths before they kill us all.

There is no purpose to this other than sexual gratification.

Fixed typo

Edit: In fact, I think the headline should have read "new US sex toy." Why give 'em a break?

[reprobate]

110. I'm beginning to think we'd be safer WITHOUT a military.

As with all empires, the military eventually is turned on the people.

And it's now happening here.

Will the rest of the world PLEASE stop these bastards?

[Mari333]

32. Tax monies that go to promote Pain and Death , never to Life

Says a lot about what our priorities are as a country.
I wish I had a list of how many people, animals, life itself, has been destroyed or ruined because of this administration. It would be in the millions and millions.

[CoffeeCat]

33. Sounds like our government is anticipating...

rioters--sometime after 2007.

Obviously, they're forecasting that their own actions/policies will galvanize large, organized groups of "rioters."

What could they be currently planning that would cause them to prepare for massive, out-of-control riots?

The only thing we have to fear---is fear itself--oh yeah, and maybe the sick nihilists in our government with the pain weapon.

[CindyDale]

35. Not nihilists but sex pervs, IMO

[atommom]

34. But it will only be used on "enemy combatants."

Of course, the definition of "enemy combatants" will expand even farther to accomodate the desires of the people wielding the weapon. :scared:

Very disturbing.

[CoffeeCat]

36. Under the Patriot Act--most of us could be defined as a "terrorist" (n/t)

[CoffeeCat]

38. The wording in the article is troubling...

"The weapon, destined for use in 2007, could literally knock rioters off their feet."

The govt, according to this article, is intending the weapon for "rioters". Again, what actions do they anticipate will cause rioting? Obviously, if they're spending money to develop this weapon--they're preparing for something.

Also, am I reading too much into the "destined for use in 2007" wording? There's a difference between a weapon being completed in 2007, and a weapon that is "destined for use in 2007". Maybe this is a simple case of poor wording, on the part of the author. However, the words seem to suggest that they weapon will be used in 2007.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

[AmBlue]

59. This is creeping me out....

I just wrote this in a private e-mail to a friend about an hour ago:

"I think one day soon we're gonna have to get out in the streets of DC and shut down this government in protest, like the people in Ukraine and Lebanon. In fact, when I see them all fighting for their countries in peaceful demonstration, I get the feeling it's the Big Guy Upstairs showing us the way. Mark my words...."

And then I read this. These criminals running our country are sooooo obvious.

[suffragette]

126. that was how I read it, too

Which is why I quoted that sentence in my earlier post.
Sounds like they are preparing for civil unrest whether by protesters or "rioters." Hmm, marches, neighborhoods, both?
This regime is terrifying.
And they are are terrified that people will realize that and demand a return to our rights.

[thecrow]

127. see message #14

[mmonk]

40. I guess the stakes have just gone up

for protestors in the USA. If it is used against protestors, they should sue for cruel and unusual punishment.

[slaveplanet]

105. It says nothing about

Protesters.. this is for rioters, which will be anybody starving after they cut the chain in the food supply...there will be no efforts going toward protesting at that point.

they have big plans....

[undergroundpanther]

158. Don't forget the little shit

About "tort reform"
I think suing may not be an option anymmore..

[Sabriel]

43. Where's the weapon that inflicts compassion and empathy?

I'm still waiting for my taxes to be spent on funding for that one.

[Lilyhoney]

185. Hello. My first reply ever

I would like to mention that we already have, well not "weapons" but but more like a "tool" that allows for empathy and compassion. It is called MDMA and it's wide spread use could do us a world of good if the RIGHT people used it. So if any of you out there can manage to share some MDMA with the people that could really use it please see it as your civic duty to human kind and the earth to do so.

There was an episode of "That's My Bush" where George accidentally takes a dose of X (MDMA). Very funny episode.

Since the substance is illegal in the US there has been no research to determine if the entheogen will work on pure evil or not.

[Igel]

45. One of the things driving this, I suspect, is the ban on chemical

weapons.

If you're putting down a riot in Westwood Village and things are really out of hand, you can use tear gas.

If you're putting down a riot in Baquba during military operations, you can't use tear gas. Things get out of hand, the only thing left under international law other than retreating is violence--beat the rioters, or shoot them.

The Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Rose Siding]

46. Yet Robert C Byrd takes heat for Nazi comparisons?

:silly:

[NVMojo]

47. ...and sick!!! He did nothing in comparison!!

The repukes are making me rethink the meaning of "evildoers".

[msmcghee]

49. The weapon is interesting but . .

. . . what is more important is the use of politics and the MSM to create a polarization between those who support them and those who don't. The words being used to describe us as troop hating, Birkenstock wearing, tree-hugging, anti-American traitors has a specific purpose.

It is so that when they start using those weapons on us they will be cheered on by their supporters who will see us getting what we deserve to get - rather than as simply fellow Americans with a different view.

There will always be cruel ways to deal with your enemies - always have been. But first you have to separate them from your friends so you can freely do what you want to them. And that's the process we are undergoing now in preparation for what's to come.

It's interesting that the range of this weapon is well beyond the range of whatever weapons we might have to defend ourselves (such as handguns, shotguns, etc.)

But they have to be able to use those weapons without their supporters having any sympathy for us. That's what they're working on now IMO.

[shanti]

57. this sentence in your post caught my eye

"It's interesting that the range of this weapon is well beyond the range of whatever weapons we might have to defend ourselves (such as handguns, shotguns, etc.)"

that is a sobering thought :-(

[slackmaster]

95. That's one reason to oppose a ban on .50 BMG rifles

http://www.geocities.com/robert_frenchu/guns_50cal.html

[CoffeeCat]

60. You make a good point...

Demonizing the enemy, to the point where many people don't mind if they are tortured, is key to furthering Republican goals.

Right-wing, hate radio positions liberals as horrible, subhuman creatures who hate America and the military.

A few weeks ago, Rush Limbaugh discussed a NYTimes article that spotlighted the high numbers of severely wounded American soldiers who survive massive injuries. Medical advances save many gravely injured soldiers--who would have perished without current medical technologies. In effect, many of the living-wounded survive with serious conditions (no limbs, blindness, disfigurement, etc) that will affect them forever.

The article objectively laid out the increased survival rates and the ramifications for these vets. However, Limbaugh lambasted "the liberal media" and "liberals" for hating that many of our soldiers are surviving. He accused liberals of wanting the soldiers to die and wanting a higher death count, "They see higher survival rates as a bad thing! They can't even be happy when our wounded soldiers survive!".

Limbaugh droned on for at least two hours on this. He engages in similar destruction every day--for three hours.

It's incredibly dangerous and it speaks to msmcghees point about the "separation" of liberals from the God-loving, patriotic, Bush-following Americans.

[AmBlue]

52. Yesterday, I saw....

A large American flag sticker pasted on the rear window of a pickup truck with the words: "FEAR THIS!!!" emblazoned diagonally (in a scary-looking typeface) on the flag.

It made me so sad. I feel visceral anguish over the fact that our country is changing (or already has) in a way that brings out the basest of human characteristics. This new weapon is just more of the same.... Where will this end????

I wanna move to Sweden......

[MojoXN]

53. So now...

We can have Abu Ghraib without all those embarassing (not to mention incriminating) photographs! Neat-o! Now all you'll see is innocent Iraqis writhing in agony for no apparent reason. Your tax dollars at work people! <redneck> Gawd Bless George Dubya Boosh! Yeeeee-haw!! Now we kin torchur them fuckin' Eye rackies and not leave no bruises!</redneck>

MojoXN

[usregimechange]

54. Byrd was right. More power, more control, better weapons, etc

Facsism here we come.

[CitySky]

56. one man's "Group of Rioters"...

is another man's "peaceful protest."

"Hey hey, ho ho, the First Amendment has got to go?" Freedom of speech and of assembly, anyone?

[NickB79]

58. Fashion designers better start designing tinfoil clothing

Something to bounce the laser off. Tinfoil hats be damned, we'll be protesting in full-length tinfoil suits of armor!

"Now the kilt was only for day-to-day wear. In battle we donned a full length ball gown covered in sequins. The idea was to blind your opponent with luxury." - Willy

[ashmanonar]

117. not a bad idea.

and i love the simpsons quote.

tinfoil armor...measures and countermeasures...the arms evolutionary spiral continues.

[usregimechange]

61. Help me send this story around the world. Post post post send

[gordianot]

62. US developing 'pain from a distance' weapon

New details on crowd control weapon.


US developing 'pain from a distance' weapon
By Nic Fleming, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 03/03/2005)

The US military is developing a weapon that delivers a bout of excruciating pain from afar to use against protesters and rioters.


The weapon produced 'pain and temporary paralysis' in animals
Documents released under the US Freedom of Information Act show that scientists have received funding to investigate how much pain can be induced in individuals hit by electromagnetic pulses created by lasers without killing them.

Due to be ready for use in 2007, the Pulsed Energy Projectile weapon is designed to trigger extreme pain from a distance of one-and-a-quarter miles.

It fires a laser pulse that generates a burst of expanding plasma - electrically charged gas - when it hits something solid. Tests on animals showed it produced "pain and temporary paralysis".


see link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/03/wpep03.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/03/ixworld.html

[Sabriel]

63. When is Scotty going to beam me the HELL out of here??!!!!

Why am I working at this job so that my taxes can be used to kill or inflict pain on people? What a fucked up existence this is.

[DBoon]

70. Social Security is being cut to finance THIS!!!

what sort of upside down world do we live in?

[NVMojo]

180. Bushworld is all about leaving this country in completely different

shape then it was when they first got their stinky ass hands on it....

[GregW]

64. I worked on a similar weapon last night

Went to Mucho Gusto and had extra black beans and jalapeños on my chicken burrito.

This morning ... LOTS of expanding plasma coming from me that DEFINITELY is inflicting pain on others from a distance. Only difference is there is no paralysis, instead, people seem to be running screaming from it :shrug:

Burritos .... the poor man's WMD

[gordianot]

66. Too bad it does not have the same range. n/t

[rkc3]

73. Mucho Gusto must have the same chefs as Mad Mex...

I'm feeling the same way this morning - could also be the 6 Yuenglings I had with my chicken burrito.

[Sin]

168. hehe :)

since im from pottsville im gona have to go with the yuenglings:)

[emad]

65. All the have to do is beam Shrub's face onto TV screens worldwide

and it has the same effect: intense nausea, abdominal cramps, violent distress and total paralysis.....

[Jonathan_Hoag]

67. Interesting

Seems to be a different system than the microwave technology discussed here a while ago. Unless Telegraph writers completely got their physics wrong, that is.

[Silverhair]

80. They probably got their physics wrong.

Science writers for news outlets rarely have science degrees. Usually they are lesser staff journalists that are assigned to cover science.

[sniffa]

68. new Lyrics are needed for bette midLer's song

[Zenlitened]

77. "God is shocking us, god is shocking us...

... from a distance."

[CindyDale]

69. New US sex toy combines torture with date rape drug effects!

Expected to boost Viagra sales!

What will these ingenious Americans come up with next?

[rodeodance]

71. yes, the military is now catching up to Start Trek sci-fi technology

[Igel]

72. Sounds like it's different from the microwave crowd-control

weapon.

So, is the plasma produced from the outer layer of skin and clothing? What else could produce the plasma?

As for the quote "Pain researchers told today's New Scientist magazine that the technology could end up being used for torture and that it was unethical", I could say the same thing about my mother's roast beef. Except it couldn't just "end up being used for torture"; it has no other real use (apart from a weatherproof building material).

Duplicate, me thinks: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1279868

[rkc3]

74. You know how to get your mother to quit making roast beef?

Tell her she makes roast beef like Jim Jones made Kool-Aid - my mother stopped making meat loaf 20 years ago after that shot.

[Igel]

115. LOL! n/t

[gordianot]

75. Sounds like it may be a duplicate, just a different source.

Notice there is not anything listed locally, just British media.

[aden_nak]

76. If it's the tech I'm familiar with, the beam can actually be reflected.

/wink /wink /wink

[bobthedrummer]

78. Here's an old link to the Non-Lethal Weapons arsenal from the USAF

Gives one some idea as to where directed energy weapons are headed in the Rumsfeld/Myers DoD under The War President.

Non-Lethal Weapons: Terms and References
http://www.angelfire.com/or/mctrl/nonlethal.html

Here's another useful background link.

Star Wars, Star Trek and Killing Politely by Dr. Nick Begich
http://www.angelfire.com/or/mctrl/starwars.html

[ckramer]

79. What happen if someone uses it to rob a bank?

100% success?

[Selteri]

170. I think that was the first thing I pointed out in an alternate thread. NT

[Career Prole]

81. I'm quite sure large parts of the world consider

the U.S. a pain from a distance already. All that needed development was an aiming device.

[chunkylover55]

82. Doesn't anyone see this as good news?

The effort to develop non-lethal weapons is worthwhile endeavor. There are quite a few of them out there -- rubber bullets, rocket launcher like devices that shoot sandbags, etc. But, these devices can still be deadly if used improperly.

I think having something like this is a positive thing and can save lives. If there's a riot, and you can shoot a laser beam at them that just causes pain and temporary paralysis, but has no long term effects, then thats a good thing.

[gordianot]

83. Not really good news.

What happens when you turn it up full power or make it lethal? Just a new way to kill someone, this sort of technology spreads.

[chunkylover55]

88. So what?

It much harder to make non-lethal weapons than you then it is lethal. And, its not like there isn't already laser beam/directed energy weapons out there that can be used for deadly purposes.

You're providing flexibility to law enforcement so they can use a weapon in a lethal manner when the situation calls for it, and a non-lethal manner if necessary. They already have a plethora of lethal weapons, so its nice that they'll have an additional tool in their arsenal to disarm a person or persons without physically haraming them.

This is a positive advancement. Its like in Star Trek where they could set there weapons to "stun" if necessary.

[gordianot]

90. It sounds to me like something more for Grunts to worry about.

I'm sure there are countermeasures but they must be heavy hot and uncomfortable.

You got them some one else will duplicate them and use them on you.

[Weembo]

92. Just like Tasers are nonlethal!!

[DARE to HOPE]

84. No, I don't see this as a good thing!

...having been in peaceful demonstrations in Chicago FOR PEACE, being surrounded by shoulder to shoulder police in riot gear! Fearing billy clubs and tear gas is bad enough! Now electromagnetic weaponry, for crying out loud?

WHO do they consider the enemy here--Americans!

[bobthedrummer]

85. No, it is another tool for the abuse of innocent people. That is how

it was developed. Welcome to DU. I've been in several riots btw.

[Bridget Burke]

87. Just like tasers--which only kill occasionally.

Even a rubber bullet can put out an eye. What would the lasers do? How about testing them--say, on the Republican members of Congress? Or you might volunteer....

And--why are the people rioting? Are they citizens of the next country we invade & occupy? Or are they citizens of the USA?

[LynnTheDem]

94. No it isn't good news.

One day when it's used against "rioters" and you happen to be within the 2 mile range with your infant child minding your own business, then you tell us what "good news" it is.

[GHOSTDANCER]

96. Controlling dissent does not correct the problem. It prolongs it.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

--Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776.

[thecrow]

129. Think about what you are saying here

and realize that you are anti-human.

[Stirk]

181. Certainly not.

If force can be used "safely", it will be used often.

We see the results of this all over South America, by the way. After Vietnam, our own government figured out that US service members coming home in body bags in pursuit of imperialist goals would cause a public outcry. But enlisting locals to do the dirty work caused no such reaction. Indigenous fighters could be used to do any kind of dirty work, and no one back home cared. So they did it alot.

Something similar will happen here as weapons like these spread. The bar for when to use force will be lowered and lowered, because there won't be any (or at least many) body bags.

[NVMojo]

86. more info here. This administration is already crazy!!!

They don't need anymore weapons!!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1279868&mesg_id=1280484

[Hamsta1]

89. But can it

mess up Cheney's pacemaker from 1.5 miles away?

[Sentath]

91. LINK to article in New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077

[CindyDale]

93. This reminds me of one scientist's view on warfare

"I can make a very good case for biological warfare as a more humane way of fighting war than with the atom bomb and chemical warfare. We can incapacitate a population with less than 1 percent of the people becoming ill and dying. And then we take over facilities that are intact. When you bomb a country, you not only kill people but you destroy the very facilities that are needed to treat them -- the electricity, water, all the infrastructure is gone when you bomb.

So, to my way of thinking, if you must have warfare, if you use incapacitating agents, it is more humane then what we refer to now as "conventional warfare" with bombs and conventional weapons."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/biow_patrick.html
------------

As you see, this scientist starts by comparing apples to oranges and finishes by comparing apples to bananas (biological to nuclear/chemical but in second paragraph biological to conventional).

As any sociopath would understand, it's more compassionate to hurt people than facilities. For example, Ted Bundy decided not to forego stealing one particular car in Tallahassee because the owner had fixed it up so nice. Ted just didn't have the heart. Who says psychopaths don't have empathy?

[EVDebs]

98. Cruel and unusual punishment delivered without trial at discretion of

usually conservative law enforcement types ... sounds like martial law to me has arrived early. Why bother to leave home and protest anything ? They can just GPS your house !

[Ian David]

104. Changing technologies create changing tactics. It's the history of warfare

So, if they use this to suppress "riots" (actually, more like "protests") what will dissenters do?

They will stop rioting and protesting, most likely.

And without riots and protests, what other avenues for expression and Resistance will we have left?

Small-unit covert guerrilla tactics by insurgents acting in independent, isolated cells.

So, to sum up:

1) Using this weapon to suppress protests will lead to more violent-- and more effective-- guerrilla tactics against abusive governments.

If I were the mayor of a city, I would much rather deal with a day or two of peaceful protest or a day of disorganized rioting than month after month of bombings, assassinations and sabotage.

If you deny people the right to vote and then deny them the right to protest, it is a recipe for disaster. It will create both an escalation of violence and a form of Resistance more pervasive and more difficult to control.

[Ian David]

100. Countermeasures, anyone?

Can they put these things on a LEO satellite?

And I swear to god, if I am ever attacked with one of those things, I will build one of my own.

[ashmanonar]

132. someone up thread talked about tinfoil armor

which i think is a possibility. clothing with tinfoil sewn on, or mylar, or something very very shiny. or a big tinfoil shield.

[jpgray]

102. Put your right hand hand in the box

(sorry)

[Ian David]

106. Why don't they build an orgasm weapon?

It will knock rioters off their feet for a few moments, and then the men will fall asleep and the women will want to cuddle and "talk about their feelings."

It will also leave teen-age boys extremely suggestible and compliant-- and hungry.

[CoffeeCat]

165. You are damn funny...

Your last couple of posts have made me LOL.

If you're not a comedian/comedic writer--you should be.

Too funny... :)

[ashmanonar]

131. what's sad is that i know what you're talking about

and the picture link is broken...
:D

[Steve L]

107. I've heard of this!

I know several young scientists for the Air Force and they told me about this thing about a year ago. They called it the "pain ray."
They described it exactly as it is here and said it was meant to be used for crowd control. They joked about it at they time and I seem to remember one of them describing the pain of running his hand through a low power beam. Scary stuff!

[Tafiti]

109. Welcome to the machine, folks!

It's time to rage against it.

[foo_bar]

118. the Geneva Conventions are "old Europe"

There are no more civilians or prisoners of war, just moving targets and stationary targets. If the Hague won't get us the Golden Rule might.

[BigBearJohn]

123. WTF is this world coming to?

[WillieWoohah]

128. I was a guinea-pig for pain research when I was at uni

The researchers smeared this conductive chemical jelly stuff on my forearms and then strapped electrodes over the top. By applying a current they stimulated the nerve endings in my skin to simulate pain. It felt like my arm was on fire and was simultaneously being cut open. The idea was to test whether the subject's performance at a fine-motor skills task improved or declined if they had to do it under the threat of getting zapped when they got it wrong. Before that there was a calibration phase where they increased the current in small increments until you cried "uncle" to see how much you could handle. I was dumb enough to put on a big macho act so they cranked it "up to 11". Ain't never been the same since... :)

[ashmanonar]

133. LOL

interesting way to make money...did ya ever think about selling your plasma?

welcome to du!

[michael_1166]

130. I start to believe

that it was a bad idea to leave the trees in the first place.

From a moral point of view, we're just too stupid for making peaceful use of technology. It'll end in tears.

[reichstag911]

144. liked the This Mortal Coil reference :-) n/t

[KamaAina]

135. O'Brien to Winston: "How does one impose one's will on another?"

"By making him suffer?"

"Exactly. By making him suffer. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own?"

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[PATRICK]

142. When Einstein fled Germany

so as not to participate in "patriotic" development of chemical weapons he took a chance for a high minded principle in a clear circumstance though scientists might pretend the weapon might not be used or used so horribly.

But what if the scientist was told(as the wiser military complexes do regularly now) he was developing protection against chemical warfare or a skin care product? You need more lonely courage, more morally astute forethought when working on ANY new scientific advance- no matter for whom or how trustworthy the sponsor, how noble the cause.

And for THIS Antipresident? ANY cooperation with this administration for seemingly worthy goals should be considered with far greater caution- if any cooperation at all for bi-partisan common good goals is even possible.

Note to Hillary and others who are enabling Bush's crimes in the Mideast. terrorists, dictators must go, but not by committing moral sepulku is working with far worse tyranny and deception and malevolent causes here at home. Violence is not an answer. Perversion, lies and secrecy hamstring the right of any individual to contribute safely to even apparently harmless and beneficial goals.

[Seabiscuit]

147. I will not allow this or any other garbage these fascists pull make me

leave my country.

I will take up arms to overthrow the bastards (and die in the process if necessary) to take our country back before I allow them to get away with this. I will *not* run away.

[Trajan]

151. I applaud your sentiment ...

Even if I don't approve of your method ....

I am NOT going anywhere ....

[Seabiscuit]

162. Thank you. But it's not *my* method. It's the Constitution's method.

Note that I stated "if necessary". The framers saw it as a last resort. But this criminal junta may just drive us all to that last resort.

[bvar22]

148. CAUTION: Thread Hi-Jack in Progress.

SAY, could this device incapacitate the pilots of a twin engine aircraft at low altitude and approach airspeed in Minnesota?

Would there be ANY evidence after the crash?

[Rex]

149. Ethics? SCREW THAT...this is the Bush WH we are talking about.

They will use this weapon ON US! Fuckers!

[u2spirit]

152. And Shrub says Stem cell is immoral

Good God I weep for my country more every day. It's time for torches and pitchforks !

[OTownGuy]

153. Remeber Russia

Remember the scenes in Doctor Zhivago where the reds clashed w/ whites?? Thats what we will have to to do.

[Deja Q]

160. Ethical? What's that?

:shrug:

[Heddi]

161. If we spent 1% of the money we use to make creative ways for people to die

instead to make creative ways for people to live, I'm sure we'd have a cure for Heart Failure, Diabetes, many cancers, many as-of-now incurable childhood illnesses....

An ex-friend of mine who is in the USAF always would get upset when I would dismiss any "connections" she made between her job and mine---hers being in the military, and mine being a nurse.

"But we're both saving people!" she'd say.

Ah yes...but my job would NEVER call on me to kill one to save another, I'd oft remind her.

We stopped speaking after she grew tired of my constant requests that the government build one less bomb, since the money used in doing so could feed, house, clothe, or medicate alot of people. POor dear is still under the impression that we're somehow "preserving freedom" by blowing to bits innocents halfway around the world.

Meanwhile, today, I prevented someone from taking a lethal mix of medications that weren't checked previously by another nurse.

And somehow, because i'm NOT in the military, I'm NOT preserving freedom? I think my patient today would state otherwise.

[baron j]

163. They also need to stop perverting discoveries into potential weapons.

Look at these videos of a rail gun:

http://www.powerlabs.org/railguncurrent.htm

This is something that could be used for space exploration, but will also be turned into armor piercing weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gun

Scary, scary, scary...

[Jamastiene]

166. And we are supposed to be

the civilize society?

[Selteri]

171. And I'm sure for testing in 2009 - Pain cuffs

Why not a portable control unit where if the person pulls at their cuffs too hard the cuffs go off.

Sadly, the realist in me sees these items as being used to stop criminals eventually, bur I can stee this administration abusing it on anyone who gets in their way.

[NCN007]

172. Think about this weapon for one second

Its designed to be a nonlethal form of crowd control, something that gives the soldiers using it more options in terms of keeping themselves safe from a potentially hostile crowd without killing innocent civilians. Of course it could be used at home to control riots, but I for one wish that the national guard unit deployed to Kent State had access to one of these, its hard to imagine the pain inflicted would be worse than a bullet.

[NVMojo]

173. if only it were that simple.

[Stirk]

182. The Guardsmen at Kent State who decided to use force

crossed a big line. There were repercussions. Weapons like these allow law enforcement to lower the bar when deciding whether or not to use force.

Don't like some peacenik's sign? Hey- why not knock his ass on the concrete for an hour? No marks, no foul, right?

[bushisanidiot]

176. Jesus would be proud of us...

what a christian nation we are.

[lakemonster11]

179. Crucio!

Isn't that an Unforgiveable?

[Kable]

183. Transition

I like the way this discussion is framed. I hope the increasingly irrational and violent tactics of the Bush Administration help us move from 'liberal' to 'left'.

[artemisia1]

184. This talk of an "electromagnetic pulse" reminds

me of "Dark Angel", the series. First season was GREAT! Terrorists hit the U.S. in, 2007? or 2009?, with an "electromagnetic pulse" that turned all the 1 and 0's in American computers to 0's. It heralded the economic ruin of the U.S. and the beginning of a police state. James Cameron had it right, too, with his plot line of a military project designed to produce superhuman killers. Does some of this new military technology stuff sound like "Manticore" to anyone?