Toddler Shoots Tot In Toy Dispute (4 year old shoots 2 year old brother)

[truthpusher]

http://wcco.com/topstories/topstories_story_072155323.html

Toddler Shoots Tot In Toy Dispute
Police Say Four-Year-Old Did Not Realize What He Did
---------------------------------
Mar 13, 2005 2:49 pm US/Central
---------------------------------

A 2-year-old was shot by his 4-year-old brother, who may not have known the difference between a real and toy gun, police said.

(snip)

Police Sgt. Cameron Grysen said the boys had been arguing when the 2-year-old threw a toy at his brother. The mother thought the boys had returned to their room, but they had instead gone to her room, where the older boy took a loaded gun from the woman's purse.

"The 4-year-old was angry ... he went and got the gun, put it to his brother's head and shot the gun," Grysen said.

The mother told police she had the .32-caliber automatic to protect her family because of recent neighborhood burglaries, and that Saturday was the one day that she did not secure the weapon. She could face criminal charges.

complete story: http://wcco.com/topstories/topstories_story_072155323.html

[merwin]

1. Repug solution: Give the 2 year old a gun. Make it a fair fight.

On edit:
This is why we need to keep guns out of stupid parents' hands.

"I need a gun to protect my family, therefore I will leave a loaded weapon in my purse at all times". Uh-huh.

[Guckert]

3. Remember, Guns don't kill people, Kids with guns kill people. DUH!!!

Idiot NRA parents sure does help.
How did the kids get the gun lock off?? :puke:
How did he Load it? :puke:
How did he find it? :puke:

The parents should be charged.

[merwin]

5. No lock, loaded weapon, sticking out of her purse.

Of course, she is a completely responsible parent for trying to protect her children from the scary terrorist burglers

[StuckinKS]

22. To quote someone in another gun-related thread

"Would it have been better if he used a petrol bomb?"

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merwin]

13. Yeah, but the one who got 'removed' from the gene pool wasn't

the one who should have been.

[Toucano]

2. Dear God!

Heaven help us.

[plant-fan]

4. Too bad we can't execute the little guy ! That would be neat.

[merwin]

6. Yeah, thanks to the recent SCOTUS decision.

[WindRavenX]

7. Heartbreaking. Just heatrbreaking.

I will never, ever own a gun.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Neither will I

I honestly just don't get it. Never once in my life have I wished I had a gun for any reason.

[meganmonkey]

33. I agree completely

As a female who is often home alone at night (my boyfriend travels for work), I have often felt a little freaked out by wierd noises or whatever and thought about the possibility of an intruder.

But I have never ONCE thought that a gun would make me feel safer, or that I wished I had one handy, or anything like that.

I will not let that kind of thinking into my head. It goes againslt everything I believe.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. I teach in the hood

I have been driving in and out of the 'worst' neighborhood in town twice a day for 25 years now. And never once have I wanted to carry a gun. Never once have I felt unsafe either. I have been 'victimized' by criminals more often in the suburbs where I live than in the hood where I work.

And if I ever felt unsafe enough that I needed a gun? I would move. We did just that 11 years ago when our quiet little suburban neighborhood saw a drastic increase in crime.

[Boomer]

44. Get a dog!

Our dogs are the best protection you could ask for -- not because they'll attack anyone, but because they raise a ruckus.

Intruders don't want to deal with a house that is being roused into wakefulness or that can easily become a center of attention. So it doesn't take a Rottweiler to scare them away, just a dog with a good bark. Scotties, for instance, make great watch dogs -- they're small enough for apartment living, but they have a deep chesty bark (even the girls!) and sound like dogs twice their size. Good choppers, too, just in case anyone does decide to come through the window...

[K8-EEE]

58. Exactly, My Little Beagle Is Worth Her Weight In Gold

No gun is going to tell me if somebody is in my front yard, but she will for SURE, day or night. I've lived in L.A. all my 45 years without a gun and haven't been in any spot where it would have done me any good.

[doodadem]

101. Canine power!

I have two large dogs (Sighthounds), and a Minature Dachshund. So which one will attach himself to anyone's ankle who is unwise enough to jump my fence? The Doxie! He's a terror.

[KansDem]

110. Oh, right! What if you got one from one of those owner-shooting breeds?

"Dog-gun It: Puppy Shoots Man with 12-Gauge Shotgun"
http://www.dogsinthenews.com/issues/0210/articles/021028a.htm

Now this story sounds like "self defense" to me:
"Dog Shoots Owner.......
Police: Puppy Shot Man Trying To Kill Dogs"
http://www.beaglexp.com/archives/001823.html

Sure, get a dog...but just make certain you don't get one that'll turn on you!

[K8-EEE]

57. I Have Been Mugged At Gunpoint...

and it would NOT have helped to have a gun!! Not at all...the criminal always has the element of surprise, what are you gonna do, walk around pointing it all day? That's the only way it would help when people sneak up on you, because they never send a calling card first!

[DoNotRefill]

115. The DoJ in 1994....

published figures which said that a victim's chance of escaping uninjured if they had a gun was 4:5. That's 20% of people who resisted an attack with a gun were injured. For somebody just doing what the attacker wanted and offering no resistance at all, it was 2:3, or a 33% chance of being injured in an attack. For people who resisted without a firearm, it was 1:2, or around 50% were injured. This includes people who resisted with no weapon at all, and those who resisted with any weapon OTHER than a firearm.

Which odds of being injured would you choose if you were attacked? 20%, 33%, or 50%? I'll take the 20% all day long.

Kellermann, a noted and widely quoted anti-gun statistician, has said that if his wife were to be attacked, he'd want her to meet the attack "with a .38 in her hand."

[K8-EEE]

119. Sorry Don't Believe It

1994 "published figures" or not, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Unless I would have left this restaurant and walked to my car with my gun drawn, what good would a gun in my purse done me?? It takes me 5 minutes to find my keys for God sake!

I know a lot of gun owners and I don't let my kids play at their house -- it's a high risk environment IMO. If the gun really is locked up it would do no good in a crisis, if it's not, it's likely to be either stolen or played with by a curious kid or go off accidentally in some way. My parents are in their late 70's and have always lived in L.A. without firearms, have never had occasion where they would be useful; I also have never had occasion where a gun would be useful. I've never even KNOWN anybody who has had their gun at an opportune time! I think it is very, very rare that you are "saved" by a gun and not worth the risks and creepiness.

I tell my daughters one of the best ways to protect themselves is AVOID PROTECTIVE (READ: CONTROL FREAK) BOYFRIENDS WHO WANT TO "PROTECT" YOU WITH GUNS!! That's a good way to get shot, fall for a gun nut.

[DoNotRefill]

121. well, considering that several people in this thread...

have either had their lives saved because they had a gun or saved their loved ones lives with a gun, I'd say that you're wrong.

The "creepiness" you speak of...what, exactly, is that? Are you saying that guns are creepy? Or that gun owners are all creepy?

If it takes you 5 minutes to find your keys in your purse, I'd suggest that your purse is a VERY bad place for you to carry a gun. They do, however, make purses with specialized "easy access" gun holsters. They look like a normal purse, but "break open" in the middle (it's held shut with hidden velcro) to give a person instant access to the firearm. It's a dedicated compartment, so you don't put your keys or anything else inside it but your gun. Personally, I have a "dedicated" expanded pocket where I just carry my sidearm. No keys, no gum, no spare change. I can draw it if necessary almost instantly, or simply shoot through my pants without having to even draw it (it's called "point shooting", and it takes a fair bit of practice, but I practice a lot).

I've had neighbors like you in the past. They thought I was "creepy" or "weird" because I kept guns in the house. Well, until the 1989 riots came along....at which point they called and asked if they could borrow a gun so their houses didn't get looted and torched. Naturally, I refused to give them a gun, because they didn't know jack about how to use one, but I DID keep an eye on their houses for them, and none of them got ransacked or burned.

The best way a woman that isn't scared by guns can defend herself from a "creepy" ex-boyfriend is to have a gun and know how to use it. A restraining order is just, after all, a piece of paper.

BTW, is passing phobias along to your kids something you really want to do?

[K8-EEE]

126. Dedicated Expanded Pocket, OMFG.....

Um, my house didn't get burned or ransacked either. There's plenty of guns in Iraq and people's houses get burned and ransacked constantly.

Yes I don't want my daughters dating one of those guys who is in love with guns. Yes they are creepy and a have a tendecy to paranoia (ie, having to walk around with an expando-pocket and loaded gun, Jesus!)

Women and gun deaths in this country, the majority of them have or have had a relationship with the perp. So that's not a "phobia" a phobia is based on an irrational fear, neither is not letting your kids play at somebody's house who has loaded guns. That is not an irrational fear as there are many, many tragic accidents that occur in that situation.

Yes to be honest I think you are creepy with your point shooting pants! ugh!! I feel safest NOT being around people with "easy access" guns, thank you very much.

[DoNotRefill]

129. Of COURSE most women who die by gun in this country...

know the person who shoots them, because the most common "attacker" is THEMSELVES. Yes, indeedy, over 50% of all women (I'm using 2002 for the figures, which is 2063 female suicides, out of 4005 total female deaths by guns, according to the CDC's WISQUARS site) in this country that die by gunshot wounds die from a deliberately self-inflicted wound. It's called SUICIDE. and something like 60% of all firearms involved deaths (regardless of gender) are just that....deliberate acts of SUICIDE.

In the last year that federal figures are easily available (2002), the nation-wide TOTAL of accidental gun deaths of ALL ages and genders was 762. That's NATION-WIDE. Do the math. 287,974,001 people "officially" in the US. Around 300,000,000 guns in the US. 762 acidental firearms deaths in the ENTIRE US in 2002. What does that work out to? It works out to 377,918 people in the US for each accidental firearm death. You've got a much, much, MUCH higher chance of slipping and dying in your bathroom from the fall. Do you let your kids use the bathroom? How about the bathroom in a house without guns? Compare this with the 6091 fatalities in 2002 where the people were simply PEDESTRIANS. Or the 4146 people who DROWNED in 2002. Or the 26,435 people that died by poison in 2002.

You're free to feel that I'm "creepy" because I carry a gun. I have a license for it, and now I don't even need that, because the new job I started today is specifically EXEMPT from CCW laws of ANY kind in the state that I live in. And in the past, it's literally saved my life.

I must admit....I find it funny to picture you getting "creeped out" by your phobia at the local FOP convention...because of ALL THOSE "EASY ACCESS" GUNS!!!!! ;)

[American in Asia]

75. Me neither...

I hate guns. My elderly grandfather used to laugh at me because when we visited, the first think I did on entering his little house, was go over to his couch, pull the dang thing out from under it, and carry it gingerly to a tall place where my kids couldn't get to it. He said I carried it like it was a snake and I was afraid it would bite me. I swear the emotional reaction was like to something evil...totally illogical, but there you have it. They creep me out. I will never, never, never have one anywhere near my family.

[biftonnorton]

77. Or a knife. Or a letter opener. Or a pointy stick.

I read your post to my wife and she said that due to cases where someone gets raped she will never own a (slang for male sexual organ). I laughed and then told her it's ok, just requires training on how to handle it safely. She declined on my offer to teach her proper handling at that time, however.

[Sandpiper]

8. This could have been prevented if the 2 year old had a gun of his own

Then he could have shot his brother first.

Or maybe he could have just scared him off by brandishing it.


Isn't that what the NRA tells us?


Remember:

More guns = More safer

:crazy:

[Up2Late]

9. How can these people be so stupid to leave...

...a small hand gun, and especially an Automatic Hand gun, somewhere that a small child can get to it. :crazy:

Unbelievable.:cry:

[jpak]

19. a small LOADED gun with a round in the chamber

and the safety off.

and I don't buy the "this was the only time it wasn't secure" BS either - the kid knew where to get it.

Do they require trigger locks be sold with handguns in TX????

Do they require that handgun buyers take gun safety classes????

or is that too LIEbril for them...

[Straight Shooter]

11. The thing that's so freaky is that he put the gun to his brother's head.

OMG. Where did he get that idea?

I'm thinking most kids who happen to get hold of guns will just point in the general direction and pull the trigger.

Bad karma visiting this family.

[WindRavenX]

15. no, our violent culture has clearly f**ked this kid up

Where do you think he got the idea? Any number of violent movies or shit shown on TV. Nothing is more deliberate than actually putting a gun to a person's head...to me, that was the most chilling part of the whole article. :scared:

[merwin]

18. It's not violent movies/games that does it. Think canada... low gun crime.

Do they watch less violent movies/games? I doubt it.

I think it is more about balancing it out and teaching your kids the difference between a game and real life.

However, no 4 year old should have access to any sort of weapon, as they inherently don't know right from wrong at that point.

[WindRavenX]

23. They're not directly responsible, what I meant was...

...that our culture is by itself violent, whereas I would argue that Canadian and other countries that suffer from low gun rates have a very different attitude towards violence; American attitudes towards violence is one of acceptance and almost joy in watching violent acts. This is something that makes American culture inherently "violent" IMO.
I didn't mean to suggest that violent things- movies, games, music- caused this- only the culture that makes it acceptable as a form of life instead of mere entertainment.

[merwin]

26. Ah, yes... I agree with you 100% on that.

[burrowowl]

52. I think you on to something

Could use some research, I'm sure.

[MountainLaurel]

27. Not necessarily TV

Remember that a whole lotta kids in this country witness shit like this in the comfort of their own homes, every day.

[WindRavenX]

28. exactly

See my above post clarifying what I meant by "violent culture" in America- it isn't just TV and Games- it's our entire society that revels in violence.

[Up2Late]

35. The parent(s) probably let the 4 year old watch violent movies...

...with them, and never thinks twice about it.:mad:

[LisaL]

17. Probably seen some movies where this was done.

[TahitiNut]

12. Safety off and round chambered?

Felony reckless endangerment, imho.

[Conservativesux]

14. NRA Eddie Eagle says: They are never too young to learn to shoot...

a gun. Oy vey!!

[Rush1184]

67. Just one question;

Why are all these gun accidents in which a child shots a friend/sibling/whoever almost allways happen in homes where the gun was kept somewhere unsecure and the child was not taught anything about gun saftey. Normally these children, upon questions, say they were playing with it or thought it was a toy, as the child said in this situation. He also was wondering what happened to his brother and when he was going to come back. Obviously, this childs only exposure to guns has been on tv or video games, most likely a cartoon or somthing where the violence was mild and the person who was shot just disapered or was mildly injured, most likely in a comical way. I am not saying the violence on TV or whatever is the problem, the problem is that their only exposure to a gun was in that context, he did not know what a real gun was capable of.

In contrast, You hardly ever hear of these kind of accidents happening in a household where the parents expose the child to guns or taught how to shoot and how to handle a gun properly, that is because the child has been exposed to them, respects them, and know that they are not toys.

[DoNotRefill]

103. Isn't the whole point of Eddie Eagle....

to teach kids that if they find a gun that they should stop, don't touch it, leave the area, and tell an adult?

How is that teaching kids how to shoot?

I'd note that the Brady Center uses almost exactly the same program, they just throw in "guns are evil" propaganda too.

[SmokingJacket]

16. Headline should be: Parents allow child to play with gun.

Honestly, just saying "4-yr-old shoots yadayada..." ascribes responsibility a four year old does not have.

Why are people so dumb????

[BornLeft]

80. Or more truthful headline would be

"Incompetent parents involved in negligent homicide"

[redqueen]

99. "Incompetent parents involved in negligent homicide"

Much better. More informative, but not nearly as sensational, so it loses.

[kath]

118. Actually,not homicide (yet) - the 2-y.o. is in critical condition.

[Sandpiper]

20. If Guns for Toddlers are Outlawed, Only Outlaw Toddlers...

Will have guns!


How much you wanna bet that this mother was one of those "peaceful, law-abiding gun owners" that the NRA tells us we have nothing to worry about?

[rocktivity]

45. DING DING DING! Sandpiper, you're our grand prize winner!

How much you wanna bet that this mother was one of those "peaceful, law-abiding gun owners" that the NRA tells us we have nothing to worry about?

Exactly--It's not "the liberals" and "the pacifists" who damage the gun lobby's image, but people who don't exercise the most basic level of common sense when it comes to gun safety.

:headbang:
rocknation

[AngryAmish]

100. Damn, you beat me to it.

[Blue_Tires]

21. too bad the mother didn't take the round

so she would STOP breeding and spreading her idiot genes.

Where to start? 1. Loaded gun with round chambered. 2. In an incredibly easy accessable place. 3. Not only did her kids know about the gun's presence, since they knew exactly where to find it, she NEVER BOTHERED TO TEACH THEM THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT A TOY AND NEVER TO BE TOUCHED!!!

I love this quote, too, talk about trying to cover your ass:

"Saturday was the one day that she did not secure the weapon."

Whatfuckingever...If she secured the gun every day except that day, then the kids would not have found it so easily.

[VegasWolf]

24. Guns don't kill people, toddlers kill people. n/t

[rocktivity]

25. She COULD face criminal charges? She'd BETTER!

Did she buy the gun legally, at least--along with a childproof lock? The day the gun wasn't "secured" just happened to be the day her child used it: how unfortunate, unless the child KNEW where the gun was, and used it because he knew it WASN'T a toy. But I wonder why she kept it in purse if it was for household protection? You'd think she'd keep it in bedroom drawer out a child's reach. Did she in reality make a habit of carrying it with her?

:headbang:
rocknation

[City Lights]

29. That jumped out at me too, rocknation.

She could face charges. :wtf:

[Rush1184]

68. Not to mention that any handgun is a terrible weapon for home defense...

Any expert will tell you that a sawed off shotgun is the best weapon for home defense. A normal person, in the heat of the moment, would have trouble hitting an attacker with a handgun from across a room, not to mention a shot from a .32 is not extreamly powerful and may not stop the attack, while a normal person with a shotgun only has to point it in the direction of the person and shoot, and they are guaranteed to hit and stop the person.

[davepc]

69. A sawed off shotgun is ILLEGAL. No-knock ATF kicking down the door illegal

A good 18" 12 gauge is as good as it gets as far as I'm concerned, but a legal 18" shotgun is not in anyway shape or form a "sawed off".

Please don't throw around terms like that.

Another thing, shotguns are not "point 'n click". They require as much training and practice to be effective as any hand gun. You are not guaranteed to hit anything unless you practice good muzzle control. The spread of the buckshot at most self-defense ranges (anywhere between 1' to 20')is in some instances no more then a few inches.

A .32 handgun has enough power to do the job, as long as you have practiced with it and know how to aim it. Repetitive training works wonders.


This tragedy happened because the woman was irresponsible. She did not monitor her children or her firearms, and her reckless disregard for both allowed this to happen. No different if she left the children outside by a pool and just went inside for a "few seconds" and in the iterm one was pushed or slipped and fell into the water and drowned.

You do not leave children unattended, ESPECIALLY when you have a gun carelessly stored in your purse.

[Rush1184]

71. Glad to see someone has the same feeling I do about her irresponsibility..

"This tragedy happened because the woman was irresponsible. She did not monitor her children or her firearms, and her reckless disregard for both allowed this to happen. No different if she left the children outside by a pool and just went inside for a "few seconds" and in the iterm one was pushed or slipped and fell into the water and drowned."

Exactly!

I made that same point in a diffrent post on this thread, #55 and #63.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1309326#1309835
In the end the women was irresponsible, and that is the reason why this happened.

Also, sorry about the problem with my terminology in my previous post about the shotguns. I though you were allow to saw them down to a certain lenght legally, but I was mistaken. My bad.

[DoNotRefill]

104. compared to a shotgun, a handgun is terrible for self-defense...

compared to a can of Easy-off or mace, a handgun is an EXCELLENT weapon for self-defense, even a dinky little .32.

[slackmaster]

91. If it had happened in California she might face criminal charges

But our Child Access Prevention (CAP) law is rarely enforced, because the victims are usually members of the immediate family of the person who stored a gun negligently.

[leesa]

30. This is what America wants. No sympathy.

[Karenina]

31. Bitte...

Spare this woman and her 4 year-old your bad vibes. NEITHER of them will EVER "get over" it. Maybe address the "KILL THY NEIGHBOR" mindset and inimitable DUMBNESS that has taken over the country... :shrug:

[truthpusher]

34. A mother protecting her children...

...who in turn harms her children, for reasons unknown to us, has got to be living in hell right now. Who to blame? Who do we blame when a teenager drives 100 miles an hour straight into another car and kills 5 people? It's pretty obvious who is 'at' fault here but don't forget about the enablers.

[Karenina]

37. Enablers...

are the ones presenting themselves as "well-adjusted" in a VERY, VERY SICK SOCIETY.

[LisaL]

47. Oh come on! Why in their right mind would have a loaded

gun, unsecured in their purse, in the same apartment with 2 little boys? And obviously the 4 year old knew where the gun was, since he went right to it and took it out, so, most likely, that's where she kept it at all times. I doubt she secured it before and just forgot this one day. She definitely should be charged.

[truthpusher]

48. Of course she should be charged...

...but as with all things there are others that are at fault as well. I hear so many people talk with extreme harshness when it comes to situations like this. It's almost as though people see this as intentional on her part.

[LisaL]

49. Well, I doubt she would be charged with intentional murder

or attempted murder. The 2 year old survived. Who knows what is the condition of his brain is? He could be severely disabled all his life if he lives.

[truthpusher]

53. I think the whole family will be seriously disabled from this....

...there is an almost arrogant and perverted sense of comfort that some gun owners have. When you bring a gun into your home, especially an unguarded gun, you bring in an opportunity for mass misery. These poor people just happened to win the lottery on misery.

[Toucano]

54. It's not a lottery

It isn't just bad luck or a roll of the wheel of fortune.

It is exactly what WILL happen when firearms are handled carelessly.

Time and time again, over and over, small children are given access to loaded firearms with a round in the chamber, mind you.

How many have to be killed and wounded before a MASSIVE education effort is undertaken? I want to see fucking PSAs about gun safety as regularly as Cialis ads, damn it!

As for the mother going through "hell", she should be in hell. She should also be in jail. Just because she must feel bad is no justification for not punishing her absolute recklessness and stupidity.

When she's through with that, she should be telling her story to classrooms, gun clubs, NRA meetings, church groups, whatever. The rest of her life should be spent trying to prevent careless people from improperly handling and storing firearms.

Then she can be forgiven.

[Toucano]

56. If the child dies

she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

[TygrBright]

61. No hell like the one we make for ourselves...

...but she's going to find a way to deny her own responsibility for this, I'm pretty damn' sure.

A parent who is responsible for their child's death, unless they have a genuine, serious brain chemistry disorder (personality disorder, major mood disorder, etc.,) has almost no choice if they want to remain stable enough to live, except to find a way to deny responsibility or displace it onto someone else.

That or suicide.

Right now my partner is peripherally involved in a legal case brought by a mother suing a residential facility for being negligent in the drug overdose death of her son.

She took her son out of the facility on a day pass, and ignored the requirements of the pass so that he could "spend some time with his girlfriend" who was a "good influence" because she was a "recovering" drug addict, too.

And yes, he came back from the pass with the drugs, concealed well enough to pass the standard search (it wasn't a 'jail' type facility, just an ordinary residential group recovery place for kids,) and did them all in one glorious "party" after he was in bed with lights out.

She wasn't supposed to let him out of her sight, she was only supposed to take him to visit a sick relative in a nearby community, she was supposed to prevent his contacts with kids "from home."

Instead, she took him home and let him go off alone with his girlfriend.

Now she's suing the facility because they let him go on the pass "when they knew he had drug cravings."

(Which is, of course, why they restricted the terms of the pass.)

Although the facility is defending itself conscientiously, everyone I've talked to connected with the facility is very gentle in how they talk about this woman and her case. One of them told me "Some day she is going to run out of other people to blame, and then she'll probably kill herself, which will just add to the tragedy."

I have my doubts, actually, that she will ever "run out of other people to blame."

Same with this woman. I would not be surprised if she ended up suing the gun manufacturer or the purse manufacturer or even the toy manufacturer. The one thing she CAN'T admit is that she's responsible for what happened to her kids.

sadly,
Bright

[MrSandman]

36. The one day she didn't secure her weapon...

More like the one day she admits to not securing her weapon.

What an idiot mom.

[Anakin Skywalker]

38. Holy Shit!

:wow:

[Conservativesux]

74. First it was a cat amd now a four year old. Whats up with the gun nuts?

leaving weapons loaded where animals and kids can get at them.

[Anakin Skywalker]

124. Maybe They Figure Kids

will learn to shoot and love guns (thereby becoming lifelong NRA members) early this way? :)

[Rex]

39. Guns don't kill 2 year olds, 4 year olds with guns kill 2 year olds.

I understand her reason but IMO she should have hid the gun in a place the 4 year old can't get to.

[hollowdweller]

40. A 4 year old and a 2 year old and she had a loaded gun in her purse??

Talk about an accident waiting to happen! It happened!

[alarimer]

41. This is just so sad

That kid is going to have to live with it for the rest of his life. If he gets help, he may not turn out to be a thug but with parents like that I have my doubts.

Where did the kid learn that the solution when you are mad at somebody is to shoot them???

[merci_me]

43. I just saw a promo for the 10PM news

and the clip showed the little 4 yr old being walked from the house, to the waiting cruiser.

The really heart breaking sight was he had brown paper bags tied over both hands. Two little guys, one who may not make it now and another whose life will never be what it should have been.

What is wrong with the adults? Ironically, Friday night my young grandson stayed overnight and as I lay in bed reading, I suddenly jumped up with a start, remembering I had two aspirin in my purse. How in the hell do you forget about a frigging gun?!?!??

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/031205_local_toddlershot.html

[tblue37]

109. I don't understand how the child doesn't understand

why his brother isn't there. A gun right up against the head? I don't know from guns, but wouldn't that produce enough of a mess for any 4-year-old do know he'd done some serious damage?

Four-year-olds are not stupid. I don't know any four-year-old who would fail to understand that his brother wouldn't be coming home for a long time (if ever) after that.

I realize a four-year-old might not understand before pulling the trigger that the damage would be severe and quite possibly fatal, but no four-year-old I know (and having done home daycare for 18 years, I have known quite a few) would fail to understand what he was seeing after the shot to the head.

I don't necessarily believe the bit about his wondering when his brother is coming home. Or if it's true, then he has retreated deep into fantasy and denial (which would certainly be understandable).

[KoKo]

46. They see it on TV and their President Chimp thinks guns & shooting is

the way to solve all problems. Guns are Good...Violence is good. You don't like someone? Take 'em out. After all it's just "Premptive Strike" in action. :shrug: These kids have our P-Resident as Role Model..what can you expect.

These parent should have just "Turned it all off." Then their kids wouldn't be playing with guns and their parents wouldn't have thought they needed a gun in the house.

What do I know..:shrug;

[Bouncy Ball]

50. We own two guns and have a 10 year old child.

But both guns are completely locked up and not loaded. Ever. (I know, what's the point? Don't ask me, my husband has had them forever and a day.) They're not only locked in a safe, but the SAFE itself can't even be found by our child.

And we've taught her to NEVER touch a gun and to leave immediately and find an adult to tell or call 911 if she is EVER in a situation where a kid has a gun. I have told her that many, many times. And our local police department holds a little mini-presentation for kids about guns and gun safety and we took her to that. It was VERY good.

That mother should be charged, absolutely. COMPLETELY irresponsible and reckless to carry a gun in her purse, loaded and safety off. My God.

And he knew just where it was. Whew.

[hollowdweller]

60. Amen! All kids should be taught to never pick up gun and to treat them all

Like they were loaded. I was taught this as a kid.

I was told to never click a gun. First it can damage the firing pin on some guns and second if you never click a gun then there is never the chance of you accidentally shooting it when you thought the chamber was empty.

I was also taught never to handle a gun without my dad or mom being around.

Seems like schools should have some sort of gun education. Do they? So many accidents could be prevented if people had a little common sense stuff drilled into them. Used to be your parents taught you that stuff, but nowdays that stuff is not taught, cause less people hunt.

[chlamor]

51. Where do they learn this stuff?

[Rush1184]

55. She should face charges

for being completely irresposible by not securing or being in control of her weapon, though, in the circumstances, I don't feel a custodial sentance is in order as she has a four year old son, and if she is a otherwise fit mother I feel it would be best for her son to be raised by her rather than a foster family (I am assuming she is a single mother as no mention of a father is made). The knowledge that her child died due to her neglegence will definatly have a greater impact on her than any jail term. Also, needless to say she should also not be permitted to own or possess, or be in direct access to a firearm, period.

Now, I do belive it was her right to own a gun on principle, but with rights come responsibilities, and I believe it should be against the law for any firearm that is not under the control of the owner to be left unsecured.
When I was a child, my dad had a large gun collection, mostly diffrent hunting riffles, but a couple pistols, and they were allways kept locked in a safe. And as far back as I can remember, he would take me with him when he cleaned them, and show me how he did it, while also at the same time teaching me about gun saftey. When I was about five, my dad and I would go out in our yard and shoot cans with a pellet gun, though even the pellet gun he treated and tought me to treat as a real gun, and I only shot it with him there. That is responsible gun ownership on my dads behalf, and it should be allowed.
Thus, looking back on my childhood, I believe that if a person decides to own a gun with children in the house, they should try to expose the child to a gun in the proper context, so the child knows what it is, and that it is not a toy, and to never touch one with out an adult around. Leaving a gun lying around the house, loaded and unsecured, is irresponisble and inexcueseable.

[LisaL]

59. The 2 year old isn't dead.

But since he was shot in the head, he might be one of those people we are discussing 20 years from now-should his feeding tube be removed or not? I hope he recovers, but what if he is severely disabled for the rest of his life?

[Rush1184]

63. Then his mom can explain to him

how he was shot by his brother due to her irresponsibility as a parent. It is a shame when a child is hurt by their parents negligence, but it happens. If she was a responsible parent, then this would not have happened. One could ask the same exact question if a parent had left a pool door unlocked and their child wandered over and fell in, survived, yet ended up severely brain damaged. The situation diffrent, yet the cause and the answer are the same; the accident and subsequent disabilities are the direct result of parental irresponsibility, period.

Also, in 20 years, that decision should be left to his family, IMHO, but we both know that was a rhetorical question and is beside the point of your post.

on edit: spelling and grammer

[LisaL]

78. You are assuming he will be able to understand anything

if he lives. He was shot point blank in the head! Chances are, even if he lives, nobody would be able to explain anything to him because he might lack the ability to comprehend.

[Rush1184]

94. That is besides the point.

[Conservativesux]

73. Make Momma work night and day to pay the taxpayers back for the support!

her child will need special treatment thanks to her leaving her gun where the kids could get it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. it's in Texas! am i right? i know it is even before i click the sad link

this is so so sad....i hope someone sues the NRA and/or the gun manufacture for this tragedy and the mother goes to jail!

[Rush1184]

64. It is her fault, not the NRA or the gun manufacture.

This accident was the result of perental neglegence and overall inrresponibility on her part.

Please see my earlier post #55 on that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1309326&mesg_id=1309835

[DoNotRefill]

106. How will depriving both boys of their mother....

be in the best interests of the boys? If the 2 year old survives, he'll most likely need a massive amount of care for the rest of his life. Removing his primary caregiver will help him how?

[aikoaiko]

65. Handgun Safe as a Baby Shower gift

My good friend is about to have his first baby and I just bought him a handgunsafe so that he can have quick access to a loaded handgun that is secure from tiny fingers. It has a simplex lock for quick access and is made of pretty thick steel. It fits in the bedroom end table nicely. It cost around $130 -- the price of a modest basinette.

I encourage everyone who has gun owner friends with children (or are about to have children) to give a safe as a present. My friend was so appreciative.

[The Animator]

66. My father owns a few guns, and when I was younger...

he showed me where he kept them. He also made damn sure I knew how to handle them properly. He had a job that required him to keep crazy, long, and irratic hours, and couldn't always be there. He trusted me with this knowledge in case anything every happened while he was gone, it was my responsibility to protect my mother and sister. I've rarely used a real firearm, I mostly stuck to hunting cola cans with a bb gun, but I became a proficient marksman with them, and the skill carries over to real rifles.

Even though I've used them, I've never been crazy about guns, I don't own one. Nowdays for protection around my home I prefer swords. It's the intimidation factor I think, anybody can use a gun, and burgalars expect that sort of thing... the last thing any criminal in MY neighborhood would expect would be a guy to come out of his bedroom in his boxer shorts and a big ass chinese longsowrd. Plus if I ever did decide to usher in the End-Times by having children (May the Force forbid it) It would be very difficult for one to slay another or himself if he couldn't even lift the damn thing.

[Demit]

76. LOL! great mental image I have of you now. Enjoyed your post.

[Boomer]

81. Bullwhips work, too

Many years ago, my partner (a woman) was being stalked by a man in her neighborhood. The police just laughed off her complaints and told her the man in question was harmless.

Then one night he climbed through a window in her apartment and threatened to kill her. She picked up her bullwhip and sent him back out the same window.

He never bothered her again.

[DoNotRefill]

108. The only problem with that is....

did you ever hear the phrase "Never bring a knife to a gunfight"?

[Rainscents]

70. So sad...

:cry:

[Pert_UK]

72. Yes, I'm SURE it was the ONLY day it wasn't secure..........

how about, "The gun was never secured, but in my defense this is the only day that my kid found it and shot anybody with it"?

Way to protect the family.....

[biftonnorton]

79. Toy-Lookin' Guns, Dimwitted Parents

If it was a KelTec P32, the pistol does indeed look like a toy (even comes in snazzy colors) and feels like a toy due to the polymer frame, easy trigger pull, and the 5 oz. weight. A gun that small could easily have (should have) been *on* the mom's person and, like any other dangerous item in the presence of kids, *not* accessible to young hands. Horrible thing happened. Horrible. God apparently taxes stupidity, but often more than the stupid end up helping pay that tax.

[rocktivity]

84. The child knew his mother's gun wasn't a toy--that's why he used it

He's old enough to comprehend that you can't kill someone with a toy, and that grownups don't play with toys. He wanted to punish his brother for throwing something at him by shooting him, and that required the real thing.

And I don't buy her "home protection" story. If she kept the gun in her purse so routinely that her kids knew it was there, that means it went everywhere that she did. Why? Was someone after her, or was she in constant danger or being robbed, like a drug dealer? I wonder if she had a job.

:headbang:
rocknation

[slackmaster]

89. Baloney - No 4-year-old understands mortality

They think when you shoot someone with a gun, the victim ends up with his or her hair mussed up and blackened.

[rocktivity]

98. They THINK they understand mortality--that's the problem.

He shot his brother because his brother made him unhappy. At the age of four, he sees THAT as the way of the world?

:scared:
rocknation

[Nikia]

116. They don't understand that death is final

Especially if they haven't had someone close to them die.

[slackmaster]

117. My first memory of death was the assassination of President JFK

I was 5-1/2 years old. My parents had to explain to me that the President was gone and was not coming back. I thought everybody got a big parade for their funerals.

By the time my father died I understood it pretty well. I was about 5 weeks shy of my 8th birthday. At age four I had no clue.

[LeftHander]

82. 4 year old probably to be tried as adult...

By repug prosecutor. Arrests mother as accomplice...

gets death penalty for 4 year old. But has to send the kid to Saudi Arbia for after he is declared a enemy combatant. So "justice" can be served. Mother sent to Gitmo.

Father goes broke on legal defence and can't declare bankruptcy, shoots himself after a court house killing rampage.

Not funny.

When you bring a gun into the house you increase the chance of someone in youyr family dying by being shot with it a hundred fold.

Keep the kids wathcing TV...buy more guns...

what a waste.

[Rockholm]

83. Question for Charlton Heston.....

What exactly did you mean about about those "cold dead hands." Wanna ask the kids parents?

[primavera]

85. What, no response from the Gungeon?

Isn't this precisely the sort of daily event which gun afficianados assure us never actually happens? It's odd that these stories continually appear in the media every few days or so since, according to the gun nuts, this sort of thing never happens. Hmm, go figure.

[slackmaster]

87. Some of us Gungeonites understand the importance of securing weapons

I have been 100% consistent in this respect.

I did the right thing by dropping about $3,000 on a gun safe last year, but I get no support from society. I should be able to write 100% it off on my tax return, but my tax guy says I can deduct only the fraction of the safe that I use for financial records. That's silly; securing my financial records doesn't prevent criminals from misusing them. That feature protects only my own interests.



BTW - The two .32 caliber handguns and five 9 mm ones in my safe didn't shoot anyone over the weekend. It's amazing.

[slackmaster]

88. Here's another typical Gungeonite reaction for your reading pleasure

My good friend is about to have his first baby and I just bought him a handgunsafe so that he can have quick access to a loaded handgun that is secure from tiny fingers. It has a simplex lock for quick access and is made of pretty thick steel. It fits in the bedroom end table nicely. It cost around $130 -- the price of a modest basinette.

I encourage everyone who has gun owner friends with children (or are about to have children) to give a safe as a present. My friend was so appreciative....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x101565#101578

[Blue_Tires]

90. nice safe

what's the point of plugging it into the wall? is it lit on the inside like a fridge?

[slackmaster]

92. It contains a "Goldenrod" dehumidifier

Keeps the temperature at or above 70 degrees F, and circulates the air. That prevents condensation which can lead to rust.

I also have about 5 pounds of silica gel in the safe, which gets recharged twice a year. No rusty weapons for me!

[primavera]

93. No doubt some do

It's the majority who don't drop $3K on safety precautions who worry me. But of course, I keep forgetting, contrary to what this article reports, guns only injure "bad people" committing crimes, they never harm innocent children.

[slackmaster]

95. Most gun owners don't need a $3K safe

I bought one because I collect guns. I'm closing in on 50 of them.

I keep forgetting, contrary to what this article reports, guns only injure "bad people" committing crimes, they never harm innocent children.

The gun itself bears no responsibility for the tragic shooting of one child by another. The person who failed to gun is 100% to blame. If she can't afford something basic like a $10 trigger lock (which would have worked in this case), she has no business keeping a gun in the house.

[biftonnorton]

96. Tax Deduction For Gun Safes

That is an excellent idea! Good way for society to show its support for people acting responsibly.

[rinsd]

113. Whatta a surprise, a straw man offered up in a nasty way....

"Isn't this precisely the sort of daily event which gun afficianados assure us never actually happens?"

Really? Where?

"It's odd that these stories continually appear in the media every few days or so since,"

Gee like the shark summer?

"according to the gun nuts, this sort of thing never happens. Hmm, go figure."

Never happens? Who argues that?

[slackmaster]

86. There is no way a 4-year-old understands what real guns do

His mother is a twit.

[gauguin57]

97. Guns guns guns guns and more effing guns.

To employ John Edwards' phrase from the campaign ... "AREN'T YOU SICK OF IT?"

Something must be done. But I feel so powerless with Bush in the WH and the 'Pugs supremacy in Congress.

[Patiod]

102. Somewhat off the subject, but the sibling may not be hopeless

Adlai Stevenson shot and killed a girl he was playing with when they were messing around with a rifle they didn't think was loaded. Not that it may not have scarred him badly, but I'm just saying the kid isn't automatically a hopeless case.

I wish I were more shocked by this, but I live in a city where little children are killed almost every day as a result of gun violence. Drive-by shooting gone amok, gang violence, young teens shooting one another, accidents - it's a regular occurance. I'm sure if I lived out in the middle of nowhere and needed them to fend off critters (2- and 4-legged) I'd feel a lot different about guns, but living in a major metro area, all I see is the damage they cause.

In case you think I exaggerate:
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/11127931.htm
"At least 10 dead, including 3 children, over bloody weekend" (granted 2 of the 3 children were actually stabbed, but a 10-year old was killed by "stray gunfire" while sitting in his dad's van outside a market.)

[DoNotRefill]

107. More kids under 13 months old drown in 5 gallon picklebuckets each year

than children under the age of 10 years old that are accidentally killed by guns.

It sounds strange, but it's true. You can look the gun figures up on WISQUARS.

Ever notice how those 5 gallon buckets have the big safety warning on them? That's why...

[DoNotRefill]

105. that was a pretty massive screw-up on the mother's part....

and it's a terrible tragedy. As for those who say she needs charges brought against her, what can the State POSSIBLY do to her that she's not going to do to herself anyway? She's going to continue punishing herself for as long as she lives, I'm sure...

[Infomaniac]

111. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...

When it comes to protecting your home from theives, a good house alarm, good door locks, window locks and a dog will keep you and your possessions safer than any gun ever could. Guns make absolutely no sense for home security. What's the point of having something you can use only after a intruder is inside your house? Doesn't it make more sense to keep the intruders out of your house?

Unfortunately, both of young kids are going to have to live with the consequences of their parent's stupidity.

[slackmaster]

114. Speaking of parents, where is the boys' father (or fathers)?

It seems their mom has their hands full.

Men should take responsibility for their children.

[Emboldened Chimp]

112. In unrelated news, Charlton Heston has scheduled an NRA rally...

in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area later in the week. Back to you, Jim.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

120. You know, if the 2 year old was armed, he would have been able to protect

himself!

Right.

[DoNotRefill]

122. you know, if the 4 year old had been taught that guns weren't toys....

it wouldn't have happened either.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

123. You betcha! 4 year olds are so teachable!

[DoNotRefill]

125. If your 4 year old hasn't yet learned that the stove is a forbidden thing

that he or she isn't allowed to touch, you're gonna be in deep, DEEP trouble.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

127. My 4 year old is an adult now.... I was thinking of the same analogy

but I thought it might be too simplistic.

Guess not.

If the only way to teach is to burn her hand on the stove to stay away from the heat...

IMHO, the pro gun ideology is full of simplistic one dimensional thinking folks who have trouble seeing beyond thier immediate needs or wants. Usually, they are the same group thinkers that go hand in hand with the fundie thought that it can all be 'splained in a scripture (from your choice) that says it's all okay.

The pro death folks have been indoctrinated efficiently and it's doubtful I can change your mind. That's okay.

Call enlightenment ignorance or antipatriotic. It worked for Goering, it might woirk for you.

[DoNotRefill]

128. You're throwing some seriously offensive personal attacks there...

I sure as hell hope that you didn't burn your child's hand to teach the child to stay away from the stove. If you did, under today's standards, that's a criminal act.

Guns take lives. Guns can also save lives. They're tools, nothing more.

[Paladin]

130. My, My, My

Would you look who's complaining about "seriously offensive personal attacks"........