Catholic Church Limits Use of Altar Girls

[MaineDem]

(WOMENSENEWS)--A proposal drafted by the Vatican, but not yet approved by Pope John Paul II, suggests that altar boys should have preference over altar girls, reported the Washington Post.

Citing a leaked directive published in the Jesus Magazine, a Catholic monthly, the Post reported that the proposal calls for permitting altar girls to serve only when there is "just pastoral cause," a phrase not defined in the document.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1541/context/outrage

When I was in grammar school, my best friend and I were outraged that the boys were given prizes for learning Latin to serve at Mass and the girls didn't even have the opportunity to compete. Second-grade feminists!

Although now I'm not a go-to-Mass-every-Sunday Catholic I have been pleased to see these girls serving on an equal footing with the boys. Now that might change? Sheesh, we're going back to my grammar school days again.

[RC]

1. I could make some comments here, but

I think I might be alerted or at least well flamed.

"Catholic Church Limits Use of Altar Girls"

[saigon68]

3. Church also seeks to limit lay participation in Sacraments

The higher leadership wants to limit lay "parish directors" (many of them women)from passing out communion, also to limit the distribution of wine by non priests and deacons (male), also no more clapping when singing etc. There is a swerve to the right coming from Rome. (source our official diocese newsletter)

[MaineDem]

4. Changing Vatican II?

Almost sounds like all the good things that were allowed after Vatican II are being reversed.

[SharonAnn]

30. OH yes, most definitely yes. A strong swing to the right is

occurring in the Catholic Church. It's been going on for some time.

The current pope is very conservative and has led much of the swing but what's even more unnerving is that the appointed cardinals are VERY much to the right. One of the closest, Cardinal Ratzinger (great name, hunh?), is very right-wing, Opus Dei guy and so are others. The bishops they've appointed are also more and more conservative. So, after the death of this popoe I think it's going to get much worse.

I'm really sorry about that because I think the Church is going in absolutely the wrong direction, away from Jesus Christ and all that He stood for about how to live a Christian life.

I finally withdrew from the Church becasue I could no longer endure voluntarily putting myself in an environment that considers a woman to have a lesser place or role in the Church. Also, I cut off any financial support for the Church and I find other ways to support Christ's teachings through social agencies, non-profit groups, etc.

After all, staying with it "through thick and thin", participating in it and financially supporting it are just ways of enabling its bad behavior.

[Liberator_Rev]

88. Absolutely "Right" , Sharon Ann. Good for you !

[kysrsoze]

96. Is it b/c Catholic priests prefer to use boys?

Sorry, just had to say it.

[Bob3]

2. Oh for God's sake...

I mean consdering all the touble the Catholic Chruch has these days is this the kind of thing they should be wasting a second on?

Gad.

[LittleApple81]

5. The question is: why belong to any organized religion?

The belief in a higher being does not necessarily require joining an organization controlled by nutty men.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. The answer is

That really is none of your business is it? Unless someone is interfering in your right to your beliefs then you should probably MYOB. It's what we here in America like to call freedom of Religion.

Really don't mean to be rude, but considering I am a very liberal, very feminist woman, your shallow understanding is rude in itself.

[calm_blue_ocean]

36. So very liberal, very feminist women . . .

get offended by a sincere question and a relatively-polite adjective like "nutty?"

Do you also burst into tears more easily than the rest of us?

[Selwynn]

44. So very condescending, very jackass men....

don't have anything better to do than go around religion bashing as though somehow that made you BETTER than the very people, organizations and institutions that you are so ruthlessly committed to trashing?

Do you also, join in with the vast majority here who take no end of pleasure not in tolerance of different points of view, but in a relentless crusade of venom and belittling of religion in all its forms?

She's right you know, the answer to the "why join any organized religion" question is that it is really none of your business, what a person finds compelling in such an environment. If you don't find it to be that way, don't participate. But for those who do, show a little bit of common respect.

[LittleApple81]

47. I really cannot believe that calling organized religions

that belittle women as the Catholic church is depicted as doing here would rankle people like this!
Amazing.

[efhmc]

52. A truly great answer.

[calm_blue_ocean]

54. I don't think you understand my position

I belong to organized religion. I personally believe in it.

My previous post makes a different point. I think that people have a right to ask "why" about religion on a public discussion board, without worrying about offending someone. It is not like the question was directed at Cheswick personally. The question was directed at anybody who might happen to want to answer.

I think people have a right to express an opinion that a set of beliefs is "nutty." I don't personally think Christians are nutty, but I can hear that word without getting all offended. Its just part of the rough-and-tumble of adult conversation. "Nutty" is not an ethnic or religious slur -- it is an evocative criticism, an acceptable word to use in polite society.

I do have a problem with oversensitivity, though. How do you deal with oversensitivity? Simple: make light of the oversensitivity (like I did in my previous post). Oversensitivity cannot withstand being poked fun at. We cannot let oversensitivity chill our discourse -- that is not compatible with free speech.

So, for the record: I wasn't defending the questioner's implicit opinions about organized religion. I was merely defending her right to ask her question in forthright language here on the DU, without getting scolded for asking.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

100. aaaand Selwynn shoots aaaaand Selwynn SCORES!!!! SWISH!

[Skittles]

72. don't go there little apple.

they get VICIOUS.

[LittleApple81]

75. Thanks, Skittles!

:pals:

[GinaMaria]

83. I asked myself that question

once upon a time. I came to the conclusion that orgainzed religeon in general and the Catholic faith specifically severely limited my options as a woman. I walked and didn't look back. Other people I've known have not had the same conclusion. The religeon has meaning for them and to walk away would be to great a loss for them.

Peace

[Maeve]

6. The reasoning I've seen for this

Is that altar servers are more likely to want to become priests--and that route of recruitment is somewhat derailed with the girls in the mix. Of course, if there were any chance of the girls getting to BE priests...but not in this pope's lifetime (and it will be another John XXIII before we get a chance for change).

Don't expect any change in the US--the rule-makers don't like all the lay eucharistic ministers, either; that's not changing.

[saigon68]

7. You are right I believe Maeve

At St. Patricks-- my church, many of the older members hated the idea of women participating. Alter girls, sacrament celebrators, a Parish director.
Rome is about 200 years behind the times.

Until there is a fundamental change back (which will never happen), to women not voting, owning property and nogender equality, there will be a significantly declining male priesthood.

The draft also contemplates no more homilies by parish directors, or other non priests. unfortunately in the Green Bay diocese there are dozens of churches with no priests, now run by parish directors, married male and female.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. A lot of things that are being done "because of Vatican II" really

were not part of Vatican II rule changes at all, from what I understand. As a woman who's been a eucharistic minister for years, it bothers me to have learned that Rome never approved the use of eucharistic ministers for ordinary circumstances. That's why it's called an extraordinary ministry. Receiving Communion in the hand is also not a mandate of Vatican II; it was only to be allowed in certain circumstances.

In Italy, the priest is the only one who gives Communion and he's assisted by another priest, deacon, or lay minister who holds the paten. They do use lay ministers as lectors.

The bad thing about the changes, in my opinion, is that people behave more casually in church and so are less respectful of the Sacrament.

Another drawback is some of the schmaltzy, Protestant-style hymns we have to sing now.

:eyes:

[Classical_Liberal]

17. This is really an obtuse thing to be paying attention to though

There are Parishes where they have to use directors, because of the priest shortage. There are priest here in Iowa who are having to serve several rural counties and can't even sleep in the same bed two nights in a row. There aren't enough of them to go around. These are not liberal men or conservative men, but they won't take kindly to making their job even harder, and proposing rules against women serving the eurcharist will.

[MaineDem]

21. That's the case around here, too.

One priest serves half the county. And it's a large county.

A lot of it is because the number of parishioners is also down.

[calimary]

64. Oh, heavens but I HATE those schmaltzy hymns!

Give me the meditative Gregorian Chants ANY DAY!!!! Actually, the discussion about getting rid of the hand-clapping would NOT displease me. I want to go to a quiet, contemplative Mass. NOT A RAZZMATAZZ REVIVAL MEETING!!!

That's my main objection to my husband's Presbyterian church. Besides the no-graven-images part (HEY! I'm an artist! I need the paintings and sculptures as visual aids!). Their choir director seems not to have realized it's a church at which she works, not the Copa!

[MaineDem]

79. It's the holding hands that gets me

I've been in some churches where the congregation joins hands during the Our Father. That creeps me out for some reason.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

101. calimary LOL i agree...i love Gregorian Chants ...and ahem idol worship

and REAL candles (hate some churches converting to electric lights)and the smell of incense...the the jingle of beads being prayed...and the Tabernacle center Altar.

[Liberator_Rev]

9. Just the fin of the Shark

As a former insider, (a Roman Catholic priest, prior to the second Vatican Council) I've been trying to warn Liberals for years that the Roman Catholic Church is back under the firm control of ultra-Conservatives, and a few powerless Liberal individuals in that institution are not going to make the Church as a whole an ALLY of ours.

Mark my words. Bush's "Faith Initiative", his "Education vouchers", his implimentation of the hierarchy's stand on abortion and abstinence are going to make the Catholic Church huge allies of the Republican Party, and Liberal Catholics will have to decide to be one or the other.

See http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist.

[Jacobin]

10. cough.....

[BonjourUSA]

11. That's always a question for me :

why women fill up the churches since they always have been bashed by the religions ? (all religions !)

[maxanne]

13. a good question Bonjour

and one I have often pondered myself.

We women are frequently our own worst enemy.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. I've never been bashed by my religion , only by men

including men who make assumtions about my rational thinking ability because they don't understand why I go to church.

[oldcoot]

37. Out of habit

In the past, churches actually allowed women to expand their roles in society. Participation in church charities provided middle-class women with an outlet for their energies that they normally not have in society. Moreover, churches provided them with a very important opportunity to socialize.

Today, many women grow up following certain religious traditions. Many also are educated in religious schools or attend some sort of religious class. It is hard for them to break the habit. To be fair, not all religious organizations bash women. Some churches and synagogues allow women to play an active and equal role. Some churches ordain women pastors and allow girls to do the same thing boys do. So women do have options for worship other than attending sexist churches.

Ironically, many churches depend heavily of women's free labor. For example, women are generally responsible for providing food for church functions. This is why I wish more women would "vote with their feet" and leave sexist churches. Let the men take over providing the food for church functions. Perhaps the churches would learn not to take women for granted.

[Chovexani]

95. Um, not all religions

Please don't lump everyone in with this. My religion has mostly women in positions of leadership (of course "leadership" means something much more different to us).

It really depends on the faith, and then even the sect. No religion is monolithic, no matter how much they try (look at the responses of the different Catholics on this thread for evidence of that). Even the "organized" religions have differences of opinion within their ranks. I find that most of the misogyny in Christian churches tends to come from an emphasis on Paul's teachings rather than Jesus' words, which always emphasized equality.

[pschoeb]

12. As a former Alter boy, they can have the job, it sucks

Nothing more boring than being an alter boy, the only reason I did it was I attended a Catholic school, and the only benefit was doing weddings or funerals, because we would be tipped and sometimes invited to wedding receptions. If they were during school hours we would also get out of class. The downside is that there were masses EVERY morning at 5:00 and 6:00 attended by the elderly who hung out before, inbetween, and after to pray Novenas in droning voices, this should be against the Geneva conventions;) I bet that alter boys are probably less likely to become priests, just because waking up and doing masses every morning at 5:00 and 6:00 is not likely to impress well on a young mind.

There isn't anything much the alter boys do at mass, except exist as some kind of human pillars flanking the priest. The only tasks to be done are pouring the water and wine into the priest's chalice(not always done by alter boys, best part is priest whispering for more wine) and ringing the bells during the transubstantiation. During communion there use to be a job, because the host had to be placed by the priest directly on the tongue, and alter boys had platens to put under the persons chin to catch the host if it fell, but now the host is given into parishners hands, so this isn't neccasary. The platen job could be fun, because you could "accidently" nudge the adam's apples of your friends/enemies.

Anyways, on the whole, being an alter boy is largely a job of standing still and attending way too many masses. My mom actually was an alter girl in the 40's, she went to an all girl's Catholic school, and they let the girls do the alter work.

All I can say is 12 years of Catholic school and being an alter boy made me an atheist.

Patrick Schoeb

[calimary]

62. Patrick - this wobbly Roman Catholic LOVED your post!

What we used to do at the all-girl's Catholic school I attended (couldn't be altar servers - we were GIRLS!) involved something our church routinely did before every Mass.

They'd leave all the hosts out in a large bowl, next to an empty chalice, right by the back end of the center aisle as you entered the main part of the church. You passed by there, took one of the hosts from the bowl and put it into the chalice. The chalice then would be taken down front to the altar for consecration - I suppose to avoid waste. One per customer, y'know. It was irresistable - we'd always take a small handful along with the one host we dropped into the chalice for later consecration. Then we'd take our handful of extra hosts and go find a seat, and snack through the early part of the Mass.

The one advantage for us hard-up, frustrated girls was - the altar boys were always good for flirting.

I, too, had 12 years of Catholic school. I had my kids baptized Presbyterian (like my husband) because when I learned my first child would be female, I worried that - if she had The Gift, she'd never be able to go anywhere with it in the Catholic Church. Whereas in the Presbyterian Church, the chief pastor very likely would be a woman.

[pschoeb]

81. aha, they must have let them be alter girls to lessen contact with boys

Now it makes sense, letting them be alter girls was probably the lesser of two evils in someone's head. One the one hand you have girls doing alter work, or on the other hand, girls from an all girls school being allowed some contact with boys.

Your host story reminds me, we did the same thing but we would get the hosts from the sacristy(alter boy/priest lounge) were they were stored in garbage bag size bags. I would bring them home in my pockets and eat them with cheese whiz(don't worry folks these weren't consecrated, I wasn't eating Jesus with cheese).

Patrick Schoeb

[koopie57]

14. What possible reason

does the Vatican have that they think God would not want girls, women, lay persons to participate in a more active role during Mass or any ceremony? Does God actually tell them at some point to do this? I would think God would be pleased that these people wanted to do this. It is things like that make me question my belief in God. (I am a surviving Catholic, but changed religions about 20 years ago.)

[calimary]

63. Because the Vatican regards women as second-class citizens.

Always has. Besides, look at their role model - the ONE woman they acknowledge near Jesus during his adult life - the whore, Mary Magdalene. Doesn't provide much of a template, does it?

[Kat45]

85. Mary Magdalene was NOT a whore!

That view of her was perpetuated in the early days of the church. She was actually a woman from whom Jesus expelled several demons. She was a disciple of Jesus (although of course, not one of the 12 apostles) and unlike his male disciples, who ran away when he was crucified, she stayed with him the entire time. She was also the first one he appeared to when he came back from the dead. IMHO, she had a much more important role than she's been given credit for by the patriarchal church.

[hunter]

92. Yes, notmyprez

Women were very important in the formation of the Church.

Much of that history got erased because the "patriarchal church" is terrified of women.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

102. calimary did you forget.... we are Mary worshippers? RC church puts

Women on a petestual!

[Skittles]

73. It's called MYSOGYNY

and it is RAMPANT

[artr2]

15. Why not, they prefer alter boys anyway

nt

[Classical_Liberal]

16. What's new?

?

[Clovis Sangrail]

18. So what?

Is this now an xian board?

Catholicism is a religion, not a government institute.
Within the bounds of religion, they can do whatever they want.

If you're a member of the church and don't like something they do, take it up with your pastor... or leave the church.

[Classical_Liberal]

19. Some of us are Catholics

This isn't a Christian or AntiChristian board at least according to the rules. If you don't like it you can ignore it.

[MaineDem]

20. What's an xian? (nt)

.

[Uzybone]

41. x= Christ , so xian=christian

eom

[MaineDem]

48. I honestly had no idea

That's the first time I've ever seen it used.

THank you.

[JewelDigger]

59. Is that true? X=Christ?

I've always wondered why Christmas is shortened to 'X-mas'. I thought it meant "leaving the 'Christ' out of Christmas", because in math, X=an unknown.

Could you please explain why X=Christ? Where does that come from?

[wickerwoman]

89. It comes from the greek letter x=chi

The first letter of Christ's name in Greek is an x. The second letter is p=rho which is why you see a lot of Christian stuff with the initials XP on them.

[calm_blue_ocean]

34. Disagree, agree and slightly offended

Disagree: I think that posting about religious issues should be considered okay on DU. Separation of church and state applies to governmental activities, not to people in their individual capacities. (but see, Last night's Moyers feature on distribution of government funded welfare by religious groups -- scary, spiritually coercive!).

One of the great things about DU is that we interact in our individual capacities, rather than as fellow cogs in a corporate machine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Agree: However, I think you really hit the nail on the head by drawing a distinction between how people regard their religion (a voluntary affiliation) and how they regard their government (a compulsory affiliation). Ideals for the government (eg, liberty, equality, democracy) do not necessarily apply in a religious context, nor should they -- it all depends on what the metaphysics of the religion are.

I believe that male and female should be considered interchangeable (to the extent feasible) in the eyes of the political law. Whether they should be considered interchangeable in the eyes of my Church is a question for religious leaders, not for me. If my Church does too many things to shock my conscience, then I can always leave (as many Catholics do). However, I am personally willing to subjugate my inclinations and opinions to an all-powerful God (and his Earthly, albeit imperfect, representatives) than I am willing to subjugate the same to any presidential administration.

Religions are about voluntary obedience and governments are about what it is okay to force people to do. A lot of people seem to map their political beliefs onto their religious beliefs (eg, I like democracy in government, so I want democracy at Church; I am a feminist, therefore I want female priests). I think this mapping is the wrong approach to religion.

The correct approach is exactly that suggested by Clovis, to wit: find a religion that you can agree with in good conscience. That approach doesn't work too well in politics (although a lot of people are moving to NZ these days). However, the relative freedom to change one's religion should cut off criticisms that a given religion isn't progressive enough. Take that, you Phil-Donahue-heads!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Slightly offended: "xian" is a slightly offensive term, at least to me as a Christian.

[ret5hd]

42. one question:...

is "xmas" slightly offensive also?

[calm_blue_ocean]

55. I would say yes, but

"Xmas" is a closer case because:

1. this abbreviation has become so common; and

2. Christmas has become such a secular holiday.

Neither of these mitigating factors applies to "Xian." To me, "Xian" is a bit like shortening Hebrew to "Heeb" or Jewish person to "Jew." Not a huge deal, but something to avoid out of respect for religion and ethnicity.

[AnnabelLee]

58. Some history on the use of "Xian"

To my knowledge, it is not derogatory.

http://www.christmaspast.info/forums/Main01/messages/647932485.html

[calm_blue_ocean]

61. True "Xian" wasn't derogatory in 100 ad or 1551 AD

But sometimes a word with a non-derogatory origin can become derogatory over the centuries. I wouldn't say that "Xian" is downright derogatory now, but I do think that it has lost considerable legitimacy in the last 450 years.

For other words that have lost legitimacy over the years, check out Shakespeare or Mark Twain.


See also:

"The X in Xmas is substitute Cross for Christ"
Mark E. Smith of The Fall
"No Xmas for John Quays"
1978

[ProfessorGAC]

94. Also, This IS An Internet Chatboard

People use shorthand for LOTS of words when typing into a thread. Not everyone is an 80wpm touch typist. Whatever shortens the task probably should be considered ok in such a format.
The Professor

[wickerwoman]

90. It depends on intonation.

I've seen lots of Christians refer to themselves as xians or xtians to people outside of their religion. That's kind of the acid test for me.
Likewise, I live in a very Jewish neighborhood and hear Jews refering to themselves as such all the time. What are they supposed to say instead "I'm a Jewish person?"
Are you under the impression that African Americans are offended by "black" as well?
I would say none of these is inheritently racist or offensive. It depends on who is saying them, how, and in what context.

[calm_blue_ocean]

97. You make a good point about context . . .

I can't even imagine a DU thread criticizing the Jewish religion as harshly as this thread attacks the Christianity.

The substantive criticism is okay by me.

However, in the context of such harsh criticism I think 5 extra keystrokes is a reasonable courtesy to expect.

[Clovis Sangrail]

45. I never knew

I've always used xian as I would any other abbreviation, I never knew it was a derogartory descriptor.

I did not mean it to be offensive, and apologize if it was taken as such.

[calm_blue_ocean]

56. Your good sense about separation of politics from religion . . .

more than made up for any slight offense. No ticket!

[calimary]

65. No offense taken.

I always regarded it with annoyance - like lazy-spelling "Lite" or "EZ" for "light" and "easy." As in, you're too lazy or don't have enough room on the paper to write out the word Christian or Christmas. But then again, I'm kind of a spelling freak. Must have been all those spelling bees in Catholic school where they gave you those cool, full-color and gold-leaf holy cards as prizes. We collected and traded 'em like baseball cards.

on edit - note MY favorite lazy-spelling: 'em for them, she said, most hypocritically!

[SuffragetteSal]

68. aren't you suuppose to be in church?

it is sunday morning, now that is more offensive than worrying about who is 'lazy' in their spelling of the word...

Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning.

[oldcoot]

38. Faith-based Initiatives

At one time, I would not have considered the Catholic or any other church's treatment of their female members my business. After all, women have feet. If they did not like how they were being treated, they could leave.

However, I pledged never to donate to a religion that discriminates against women. Unfortunately, the Bush administration insists that my tax dollars may be used to subsidize sexist religions. If the Catholic Church or any other church takes my tax dollars, then I should have a say in how that church is ran.

[Liberator_Rev]

98. Very good point, OC.!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Hmm

Let's see now. The Roman Catholics limit the priesthood to celibate men, and they have an acute shortage of priests.

The Lutherans and Episcopalians have always allowed married men to be clergy, and in the past couple of decades, women have been added to the candidate pool.

The Lutherans and Episcopalians have at times had a surplus of clergy.

Is there a message here for churches with a priest shortage?

:-)

[Mari333]

23. Let me tell you, as a Catholic kid

I remember VERY well what it felt like to be denied access to being considered "like God"..
Now, I am not Catholic anymore, but there was a male god all over the place there, this was BEFORE Vatican 2, and as a girl you KNEW that god was a boy, only boys could be like god, and you were some second rate creature...the only thing that gave us an image was Mary, and luckily she still held some weight ..
No, if anything, being in the church is what forced me to realize what Misogyny was and is.

[BonjourUSA]

25. Our cathos need everyone

In France, there are not enough priests. These survivors are either very old or enough still young to quickly drive a car on Sunday from church to church for celebrating mass for some old women.

For our cathos, girls or boys, old or young are welcome in the churches first, and anywhere in the churches after !!

[MaineDem]

26. I think we shared the same things

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years...no 13. From 7th grade on I was in an all female school. To some extent those last 6 years were empowering in a sense but, in retrospect, they could have been so much more. Any discussion we started regarding the "humanity" of Jesus was quashed immediately; any dissent was not allowed; any discussion about women's roles in the church was stymied by the nuns at every turn. And they wonder why so many of my sister alumnae are lapsed Catholics.

My mother prays every day that we'll go back to church. (Why are all my siblings in the same category as me, I wonder?)

[Mari333]

28. LOL yes my mother does too and shes 76

sheesh...give it up MOM.

[calimary]

66. Interesting that you point that out.

I can remember being in 5th grade and sitting in catechism class with Father Flanagan, who'd come over from the church across the street to teach us. And he'd start pontificating (pardon the pun) about how marriages and families should behave and blah-blah-blah, and I clearly remember wondering how he could possibly make pronouncements on husbands and wives and moms and dads when he'd never been one and couldn't possibly understand. Nobody ever provided me suitable answers to that one, either.

By the way, MaineDem, your comment about your sister alumnae being lapsed Catholics - I recently went back to my old high school because my daughter wanted to go there (and is now a student there), and learned that of the nuns I had in the elementary school, virtually every one of the younger ones had left the order.

And why was I not surprised?

[MaineDem]

78. A "marriage" class

I remember something in high school - maybe during a retreat - where we had a priest, a Jesuit, talk to us about marriage and family. I thought at the time "how could he even begin to know?" but we listened like we were expected to do. Not long after that he left the priesthood and married an ex-nun.

The last time I went to Mass, probably last winter, the homily was about having children and how if you don't have children you're somehow a lesser person. Honestly! I sat there, married for 29 years and childless, fuming more and more as he droned on. He has no idea why people have no children. How dare he make pronouncemnts like that. And, strictly speaking, was he considering himself in that mix? I don't understand his logic and I'm not anxious to go back and be berated like that again. That's the kind of attitude that makes me question the whole religion at times.

[SharonAnn]

31. Me too! You said it so well, that's exactly how I felt too.

That was my early exposure to what happened un unhealthy, misogynistic, patriarchal organizations.

It really tuned my "radar" for detecting environments where I would not be valued.

[cliss]

24. I still find it hard to believe

that parents would entrust their children to the Catholic Church, after all the hair-raising stories we've read in the last 2 years.

At that time, the issues was BOYS. Do these parents feel that girls won't be exposed to the same risk?

Sheesh

[SharonAnn]

32. Girls are and always have been exposed to the same risk.

I think there's less outrage over this because it's more "normal"!

As if child sexual abuse is ever "normal".

[Susang]

27. I always wanted to be an alter *boy*

I could never understand why my lack of a penis made me less worthy to do the job, particularly when the boys who did do it seemed to hate it and had to be given prizes and special honors just to get them to agree to do it.

You'd think the Catholic church would have gotten the clue that their sexist policies towards women are why their numbers are declining in the US and other enlightened countries. When you exclude and demean over half of the population, you really shoot yourself in the foot. :mad:

BTW, I was also a second grade feminist. I never looked back! :-)

[Mari333]

29. A(wo)MEN

:bounce:

[Voltaire99]

39. It's simple. Vaginas are the devil's work!

Actually, the phallo-centric ideas of Catholic church structure are best appreciated by pre-modern minds; it's a form of primitivism shared by other fundamentalisms (e.g., some branches of Islam).

If, as I did, you saw Catholicism up close while growing up, you observed the role of women in the church and saw the strained, thwarted, chilly identities this left those who tried so hard to fit in. Very pitiable. Someone should liberate Catholic women - not in the Rumsfeldian way, of course, but in a way that lifts the symbolic burkas from their lives and allows them full participation in their religion. And don't give me that church bake-sale bullshit - I mean full participation.

[BonjourUSA]

40. In all the religions, the woman has never been the future of the man.

I mean, in all the religions, the woman is only a spouse and a mother, pure if possible, not an essential component for the evolution of the Humanity.

Why Catholicism should be diffferent ? It was founded on the same rules.

[Selwynn]

46. Read Elizabeth A Johnson

Catholic theologian, feminist and author of a book called "She Who is: The Mystery of God in Feminist Theological Discourse"

An example of good that is possible even in "insitiutions."

[BonjourUSA]

49. Someone who can be both Catholic theologian and feminist is suspect for me

Nobody can admit the dogma of the Mary's virginity if he or she is a defender of the women cause.

[LittleApple81]

50. Agree n/t

[philosophie_en_rose]

60. I feel sorry for nuns.

At one point in my childhood, I believed that it would be sort of romantic to be a nun. To devote your life to scholarly pursuit of religious knowledge - not that I was ever really religious.

However, nuns are the "wives" of the church and do all of the grunt work that priests don't do.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

103. but now science has taught us that every man is a women FIRST

in the womb...every fetus is first female

[calimary]

74. Amen to that! Or maybe Awomen!!

[TankLV]

43. All I could thing of was the "In Living Color" girls.

That's my take on the mentality of the Catholic Church - use the "girls" for entertainment purposes only - window dressing only. 2nd rate members. "God" forbid anything like approaching full equality.

[PATRICK]

51. Beleive it or not

This is a big step forward for women! Of course the Church is slower than a dead turtle set in concrete on the ocean floor, but they have been ABSOLUTE in the past on the denial of women in the sanctuary.

The fear? Women priests. Each step into funtions normally reserved for Holy Orders is another step closer to that reality. They lost this battle a long time ago when for various necessities and reforms women were allowed in other liturgical functions. So long as they thought it was controlled and not a surrender to the ultimate boundary there was no problem. But acolyte with those robes and apprenticeship functions was THE line. Laugh as you will. The "preference" item is an admission of defeat, but I note this is a trial balloon.

But the Bishops and parishes have been ignoring it for so long now that
another grudging barrier has crumbled.

Women priests before 3003 or maybe like good male conservatives they are hoping the world ends first.

[populistmom]

53. Just another reason why I'm not Catholic

We left the church two years ago. So many ridiculous outdated rules (that few people follow anyway), I felt like a hippocrit. I'm enjoying being a Methodist now by far. We have a small, progressive church that does a ton of community service. It's far more hands-on and I actually feel like it does some good for people.
If you're Catholic and love it, great. I just couldn't keep it up myself.

[Liberator_Rev]

57. Mariolatry = tokenism at its best.

Mari333 said above "the only thing that gave us an image was Mary, and luckily she still held some weight."

I always felt it wierd, as a celibate priest to be called "Father". Now that I'm the blessed father of 7 daughters, and the husband of a wife who, without any training, was a better preacher and counselor than I, I now understand how the Catholic church tries to make up for all its misogyny by praising the hell out of ONE WOMAN,Mary, who really wasn't at all like all the others, because she was supposedly "conceived without sin" and then conceived her one and only child without ever having engaged in sex!

For those who are ready to explore how very WRONG Catholic Popes have been for CENTURIES, see
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist

[Mari333]

67. side note to you for fun:

A few years back, I was seriously studying metaphor, mythology, symbolism, and theology..I wanted to find correlations between the Catholic church and and its misogyny, and the symbolism it portrayed for centuries to the women in my family, who behaved , throughout their generations, like wimps to their husbands (I stopped such behaviour in this generation)..
I was searching high and low for the Malleus Mallefecorum (The Witches Hammer), of the Inquisition...their BOOK they used to hang and burn women in Europe..
So, I went into a Catholic bookstore and asked for it...a woman at the counter ran behind to an office, and a priest came out with a startled look and said 'WE HAVE NOT GOT THAT BOOK HERE'
hahaha
I ordered the book eventually, and read it through...YE GODS.
No wonder I threw the poor guy for a loop.
as an afternote: I found it to be a book of insane men, whose only testimony was hatred of themselves, and the need to scapegoat women.

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/

[Classical_Liberal]

69. So you are mad at them for not disributing the nauseating book

that caused so much death. That is pretty strange actually.

[Mari333]

71. No, I sincerely asked them if they had it in their store

I assumed they did at the time.
But , in retrospect, I was naieve and young and thought that after Vatican 2 they had opened up their past history for all to see.
Doesnt matter, I have the book now. After I ordered it from a large bookstore in Kalamazoo, it flew off the shelves , they told me. Evidently a lot of other women were very interested.
Why would I be mad at them? I was amused, however...

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

76. Why are there not more WOMEN ONLY churches?

Makes me wonder - this sounds so much like a mens only church (and NOT that it is the only one).

sigh

[hunter]

77. It was all altar girls at my Catholic church today...

And most of the eucharistic ministers were women.

But the priest does the homily, at least some part of it, and he does distribute Holy Communion, but you get that only if you happen to know where to sit in church -- Look for all the stern old traditionalists who want it delivered directly to their mouthes. Sometimes you hear them speaking in Latin, which is almost as good as speaking in toungues, I think!

It is not an overstatement to say our church is run by women. Our priest plays the part of Captain Jean-Luque Piccard in Star Trek TNG.

The women say what needs to be done, and he says "Make it so!" He is stretched so thin he doesn't have time to do anything else.

[emad]

80. I just don't know why any sane woman would bother with all this

patriarchal deist crap. God the Father, God the Son, and some sort of orinthological character called God the Holy Ghost! WHAT ABOUT ISIS, MOTHER OF CREATION??????????An 'also ran' virgin, elevated to holy mother?

Can't really see much hope for humanity so long as otherwise sensible women are drawn into this male neurosis of gender-selective mind control.

[CBHagman]

82. Hopefully JP II will nix this.

It's patently ridiculous to have a preference for males serving in any role in the church at this point, particularly in areas such as altar servers and lectors. If women are good enough to be prophets and good enough to carry the Son of God, they're good enough to carry the water and wine.

[Ilsa]

84. I've met a number of women who have left

the Catholic Church over being pushed into being pew cleaners and floor sweepers and not being allowed to participate in the more spiritual aspects of The Church. They simply wouldn't put up with only doing housekeeping. They are now deacons in other denominations.

[alfredo]

86. they polled the priest on their preferences

and found the priests find the boys more appealing.

[Liberator_Rev]

87. Why, CBHagman , imagine that "JP II will nix this" ?

This pope has been adamantly opposed to male priests even being allowed to contaminate themselves by marriage to women, let alone allowing women to be ordained, or allowing them to approach the "holy of holies", where only those closest to God can approach, i.e. "men of God"!

If you aren't aware of how SUPERIOR to women these "men of God" are, then check out
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist.

[ohiosmith]

91. SO WHAT'S NEW?

The Church (priests) has always had a preference for boys!

[ProfessorGAC]

93. Oh, Brother!

This is what the RCC has to worry about? Hey folks at the Vatican! Look up the word PRIORITIES.
The Professor

[ElsewheresDaughter]

99. myomy all the servers in our rural parish are girls the boys want no part

[Liberator_Rev]

104. What if the only candidates to show up at seminaries are GIRLS?