So, What Went Wrong? (Time Cover)

[UpInArms]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031006-490595,00.html

Ever since America's decisive military victory, Iraq has been nothing but trouble. TIME reports on the errors and bad guesses, before and after the war, that got the Bush Administration into this spot.

On May 1, off the coast of California, president George W. Bush landed in flying gear on the deck of the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln—which sported a banner reading mission accomplished— and said, "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."

The war, said Bush, had been carried out "with a combination of precision and speed and boldness the enemy did not expect, and the world had not seen before."

But the mission wasn't accomplished then, and it still is not. The reconstruction of Iraq has proved far more difficult than any official assumed it would be. Since May 1, 170 U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq, as sporadic guerrilla attacks have continued. Two potential leaders of the new Iraq—Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim and Akila al-Hashimi, a member of the U.S.- appointed Governing Council in Iraq—have been assassinated. Also dead is Sergio Vieira de Mello, the U.N. chief representative in Iraq, who was killed when a bomb exploded at U.N. headquarters last month. After a second bombing last week near the building, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan ordered a reduction in the size of the organization's mission—already much smaller than it had once been—for reasons of safety.

...more...

[joe_momma]

1. I love it...

This guy is going down hard and fast...

[Terran]

15. A little more tact, please

I assume you don't mean you're happy that Bush has led this country into a quagmire the equal of Vietnam, or that thousands of people have died because of him. Nobody, especially none of us here, should be celebrating that, even if it will contribute to Bush's downfall. NONE of this was worth it to bring down Bush, not one life.

Dirk

[The Magistrate]

It Is Certainly Worth It, Sir

If you desire an end, you cannot shrink from the means necessary to achieve it.

It is good these reptiles have done what they have, and the people are begining to see them for what they truely are.

[The Magistrate]

17. It Is Certainly Worth It, Sir

If you desire an end, you cannot shrink from the means necessary to achieve it.

It is good these reptiles have done what they have, and the people are begining to see them for what they truely are.

[Terran]

19. (contempt)

If I could trade Iraq for four more years of Bush, I would do it. How the fuck can you say that all those dead people are worth it if it helps us get rid of him? That is astonishing and disgusting.

[The Magistrate]

20. Four More Years Of The Reptile, Sir

Will do far more harm, and to far more, than that.

"Action is shrouded in evil as fire by smoke."

[Terran]

22. By your logic,

a full-on 1930's-style Depression would be a good thing, as would, say, a nuclear bomb going off in Los Angeles. Because all that would help us get rid of Bush. You are...never mind.

Conversation over.

[MariMayans]

23. it was going to happen

This is what Bush and a majority of half-awake Americans wanted and they got it. There is little left to do but enjoy their suffering. We didn't make this war, we opposed it to begin with so quit being a damn guilty liberal and enjoy the most of what there is to enjoy: Being right.

[Terran]

25. Comprehend this:

My issue is with the other person who stated, quite clearly, that the invasion of Iraq (and all it's related costs in life and treasure) is worth it to get Bush out of office. Your straw observation that "it was going to happen" is irrelvant, as is your equally misplaced guess that I am feeling guilty. I am not guilty, for I did oppose this war and demonstrate against it.

Your collective lack of perspective is appalling.

[MariMayans]

27. I don't think that was the sentiment

I'll tell you what I agree with. I hope to hell the UN continues to say no and doesn't authorize some sort of bluewash to try and let W and his pals turn some other place into hell on earth so I guess I may be the sort of mean person you imagine.

It has nothing to do with getting rid of Bush, I just want his ass pinned down so he can't make life hell for the Lebanese or Syrians or Iranians or wherever else this theives guild decides to adventure.

[Terran]

29. Let me spell it out for you:

I wrote:
NONE of this was worth it to bring down Bush, not one life.

And he responded directly:

It Is Certainly Worth It, Sir. If you desire an end, you cannot shrink from the means necessary to achieve it.

I think that was indeed the "sentiment". If you're saying you disagree with that Machiavellian idea, fine. However, by saying you hope the UN doesn't get or stay involved, you are also hoping for violent death for our soldiers and for Iraqi civilians. Pure and simple.

I am not blind to the fact that the shambles that is Iraq is contributing to bad poll numbers for Bush. But surely that equation bothers your moral conscience a little? How many deaths will have to happen to drag Bush down to 40%?

[The Magistrate]

33. The Thing Was Inevitable, Though, Fellow

That has been commented on at great length, by myself among others: the decision to invade Iraq entailed every consequence now unfolding.

If you had your druthers, apparently, you would see these people's chestnuts pulled out of the fire, and their political futures rescued, by international action. Such a desire is foolish, though it is safe enough to have, as there will be no such action.

No, the equation does not bother me as a moral calculation in the slightest: my concern, and my moral views, center on what is; there seems after long contmplation little value to attempts at plumbing oughts.

Once the Sage wrote: "What others teach, I teach also. 'A violent man shall die a violent death!'"

[Guaranteed]

50. It's inevitable that we end up in this discussion every day. n/t

;)

[The Magistrate]

51. As You Seem Fond Of Saying, Mr. Looney

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."

[calimary]

55. Even so, it's still a bitter victory.

I never wanted to be correct about this. Considering the cost, I'm chagrinned. Yes, I'm one of those many protestors who were correct. I'm one of those in a near-constant state of dejection because we TRIED to stop it. We wrote, petitioned, marched, phoned, emailed, faxed, EVERYTHING we could think of to thwart this war and it happened anyway. bush got his way like the demanding, selfish, spoiled, infantile little dilletante he is. And at what cost!?!?

Actually, MariMayans, the only thing there IS - to "enjoy" about this is the increasing flack the bushies are taking as this turns more and more sour. The whole thing is just damned dreadful. To think that every time this little shit opens his mouth, he's representing ME as an American because he's my so-called pResident - the idea turns my stomach!!!

So what we're left with, I believe, is the question - what do we do about this, then? We take articles like this and use them as evidence to back up our contentions, with all its reasons that WE quite vocally were warning about - LAST YEAR. We take that enhanced credibility and reach for the phone and call our congresspeople and our senators - AND DEMAND THEY WAKE UP!! Or, in the case of my own excellent Congressman, Henry Waxman, urge them to keep going!

By all means, first thing in the morning - call the Capitol Hill Switchboard TOLL FREE:

1 (800) 648 - 3516 or

1 (800) 839 - 5276

They will connect you with anybody's office on the Hill, just for the asking.

Or visit www.congress.org and you can find your way to ANY REP's or SENATOR's office numbers, either back at home or in Washington. CALL THEM AND DEMAND ACTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT'S what we can do that will really do some good.

on edit - corrected grammar, spelling

[MariMayans]

21. it's like watching someone smash themselves in the face

with a sledgehammer.

It has little to do with wishing ill. You can wish all day long that the Iraqi's will just fall in love with the idea of becoming a US protectorate but it's not going to happen. Likewise wishing a failure in this adventure is akin to wishing the sun would rise tomorrow.

[The Magistrate]

24. That Is True, Ma'am

For its failure was always sure as the sun's rise tomorrow.

People who insist on keeping their hands clean annoy me: they are "free-riders" of the worst sort.

[Terran]

26. Un-f*cking-believable

People who insist on keeping their hands clean annoy me: they are "free-riders" of the worst sort.

I will do whatever it takes to get Bush out of office. But I will not accept that it was or is necessary for thousands of innocent people to die horrible deaths to accomplish that, as you appear to to.

[The Magistrate]

28. You Are Wrong, Sir

It is necessary.

What do think is the reason for the recent downward trend in the reptile's polled support?

What do you think people pay attention to?

"Violence is the test of sincerity in human affairs."

[Terran]

30. How many bullet-ridden bodies

do you think will be needed to bring Bush's ratings down to 40%?

Or, you can probably economize on murder by asking how many people shredded and dismembered by bombs will be needed to accomplish that goal, since bombs are so much more news-worthy than mere bullets.

[DrWeird]

34. It's Bush that's causing those bullet-ridden bodies.

If it wasn't for him, those people wouldn't be dead. And more people are going to die. Especially if he gets a second term. We're not against Bush because of his position on school uniforms, but because he's killed more fucking civilians than Osama fucking bin Laden. And how many troops should be sacrificed to bring him to justice?

[Terran]

43. That was my point...

And how many troops should be sacrificed to bring him to justice?

Obviously, I KNOW that Bush is at fault for all these deaths. Does that mean we should wish for more deaths to make his fault even more obvious?

The discussion seems to be sliding into a place where, because it was "inevitable" that this would happen, it's morally right to wish the situation to worsen in order to punish those responsible, even at the cost of human life. That logic is applicable in other situations too; for instance, a German citizen, circa 1944, who opposed Hitler could argue that the death camps had a benefit to them, in that they made Hitler look bad, thus hastening his downfall. After all, the invasion of Poland was as inevitable as the invasion of Iraq, so why not condone anything that happens subsequently if it hastens the end of the reign of terror?

I'm not an idiot--I know more people are going to die. But don't you people get it, how withering it is to the spirit to accept human suffering and death because it bolsters a political ideology? That has nothing to do with whether it was inevitable or not--the immorality of chalking up lives against poll percentage points transcends "what is," as TM so blithely describes it.

And if I really cared what the outside world thought of DU, I would also point out that almost any average American reading this thread would exclaim, "Look at those leftists, wishing death on our boys just because they don't like Bush! Scumbags!!"

[Lorien]

48. I don't see anyone here wishing death on our soldiers

I DO see people hoping that Bush doesn't get his way in Iraq-because if he does, it's on to Iran, Syria, Libia, and all the rest on the PNAC hit parade. THEN how many will die? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Where does it end? Would we be "supporting our troops" by sending them to the four corners of the earth for the profit of a small corrupt cabel? NOBODY'S DEATH is acceptable-and that's why most of us here would like to see this mess end as soon as possible. It WON'T end if Bush* is seen as a success-that's the simple fact of the matter. Politics and action are entirely part of one another. We're damned either way-if you have a better solution, please state it.

[Guaranteed]

52. Okay then, so the more that die, the better?

I think you're in a logical quandry. Better to just steer clear of that and have a clean conscience.

[The Magistrate]

53. That Is The Way It Works, Sir

You may prospect about for a planet and species which operates differently, perhaps.

The ball must be played as it lays.

[Guaranteed]

54. Alright, so, definitively.....

Today is today. If you had a choice, would you rather 10 American soldiers died tomorrow, or none died?

[The Magistrate]

56. It Is Not My Choice, Sir

It is the choice of several Iraqis with grenade launchers, of some operational commander laying out patrols for U.S. soldiers, and beyond this of the inexplicability of who is looking where at what instant, and what goes where it is aimed or not.

That, over the next fortnight or so, ten U.S. soldiers will die is a certainty.

[Barrett808]

58. These losses are entirely self-inflicted

The Bush mafia could completely withdraw from Iraq starting tomorrow. No UN force would be necessary -- the Iraqi people would sort it out for themselves. That "sorting out" would probably entail a long, dreadfully bloody civil war, with Iraq fragmenting into three or more territories, but sort it out they would.

Our choices are these:

(1) Fight a losing, ruinously expensive counterinsurgency campaign for years, then withdraw in humiliation; followed by a bloody civil war.

(2) Withdraw now in humiliation; followed by a bloody civil war.

(3) Hand over control to the UN, which would then fight a losing, ruinously expensive counterinsurgency campaign, followed by humiliating withdrawal and bloody civil war.

As The Magistrate says, these things are close to being physical laws, and this drama has played out many times over the millenia.

[The Magistrate]

35. A Sufficiency Will Doubtless Be Provided, Fellow

Dead Iraqis will move few votes, but as the point where as many U.S soldiers had been killed occuppying Iraq as conquering it commenced the slide, the point where twice as many have been killed in occupation as conquest will be much remarked on, and prove most awkward for the foe. My guess is that will be right around the beginning of primary season.

"When your enemy is digging his grave, hand him a shovel."

[paulk]

49. but is that a good analogy?

"When your enemy is digging his grave, hand him a shovel."


I think - " When your enemy is driving his car over a cliff, try not to be in the car with him." That's the problem here - we're all still in the car with him...

[rocktivity]

47. Bush is the one who decided that more innocent people had to die

not out of justice or revenge, but out of greed and power. All we did was articulate the obvious folly of his actions, then dared to hold him accountable for them before "everyone else" did. Bush was enjoying his spoils of war. Now it's our turn!


rocknation

[MODemocrat]

59. dirk, with due respect, there'll be even more deaths if Bush isn't stopped

It bothers me terribly to think of all the innocent people who have been maimed and murdered in this bloody war, and it won't stop as long as Bush reins. I don't want Bush as president for four more years, under any conditions.

Bush the :dunce:

[Room101]

2. They have AWOL is his flight suit

:puke:

[Pale_Rider]

3. Heck with reconstruction ...

... we'll stuck with pacification operations. Until the military can get its nose out of the pacification business and allow international participation with a clear reconstruction and exit plan this is another Vietman quagmire. Thanks Georgie, the smirking chimp, and the neo-con bastards that overthrew the legitimate election AL Gore! All of them off to Gitmo NOW!

[Jack Rabbit]

4. What went wrong?

The Bushies could count on the American people not knowing the difference between colonialism and liberation (as long as the multinational corporate media didn't tell them), but the Iraqi people know the difference.

That's what went wrong.

[Padraig18]

5. Bingo!

Give the man a kewpie doll! :)

[The Magistrate]

11. Well Said, Mr. Rabbit!

Beyond that, what went wrong was the bloody-minded pride and ignorance of the persons in charge of this venture.

They must, and will, be made to drain to its bitterest dregs this cup they have brewed in hopes of political profit from a few sips at it.

[flamingyouth]

6. What went wrong? Fraud...

This asshole and his comrades-in-arms stole the presidency.

Well, that's where we can start. For the rest of the details, do you have every minute of the rest of the year free?

[leftchick]

7. could someone PLEASE post the cover pic?

Hahahahaha....Timmy russert showed the cover to condiliar this am on MTP. It was truly a priceless moment. Could someone please post the cover photo for me? :)

[VolcanoJen]

8. Happily!!!

[Zhade]

9. WOW.

The Elite really does want to get rid of Chimpy! That's a damning cover.

[MariMayans]

13. portions of them..

He's been bad for business for everyone but McDonald Douglas and the like. I think they are getting ready to throw their little monkey down the toilet.

[Malva Zebrina]

10. that is his "decisive leader" face

I can't stand to look at his face. The headline on the Yahoo news page says "White House Says It Had Iraq WMD Intelligence"

and under the headline with a picture of the smiling dumfaced chimp, there is this little paragraph:

"U.S. President George W. Bush waves upon his return to the White House on September 27, 2003. Bush's national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said on September 18, 2003 that there was new U.S. intelligence obtained before the Iraqi war about Baghdad's weapons of mass destruction programs,..."

Incredible. See--this is how they got folks to think that Saddam was responsible for 9-11. The schtick is now that Saddam had a WMD "program" and the dull and duller of the American people, will buy it lock , stock and barrel if someone does not come out and charge this insane idiot with treason against his own people. That is what is needed at this point--nevermind these little forays into vengeful accusations on the part of Rove--what is needed right now is for someone to demand his resignation or his impeachment.

[leftchick]

12. Hahahahahaha!!!

Thank you so much VolcanoJen. That makes my day! Look at his beady, little snake eyes! What a loser! :)

[NickB79]

62. We all knew that photo op would come back to bite him in the ass

And here it is.

[leesa]

14. They still won't admit that our glorious war was wrong, wrong , wrong...

I guess good ethical behavior is dead in America

[9215]

16. Well, "What went right?" nt

[veganwitch]

32. go ask halliburton.

they might know the answer.

[BadGimp]

18. Priceless Cover Pic

[veganwitch]

31. i hate to say it but...

WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!! (that is going to be my sign on the 25th.)

good gravy, Time!!! where was the "whats GOING to go wrong" back in January, February, March, April....

for the months and months going up to this war, the peace, anti-colonialism, anti-capitalism etc. said this war is wrong and we had the shit to back it up. and sadly we were right. now folks are dead, our economy just needs to be put out of its misery and WE are going to have to pay for a war we didnt want in the first place.

thousands of lives and billions of dollars could have been saved if bushco or atleast his "yes-people" had just listened to us instead of saying "aaaaahhh!!! what a cute little focus group waving their signs and chanting!!!"

I dont believe for one second that Time is actually doing an investigative piece. This is simply more of the "pop news for the idiot masses." right now its popular to bash bush, so we will too. the war was cool back in the spring and we said so too.

[ozone_man]

41. I took down my front window anti-war signage down by end of April.

Actually, it was my wife. I'm kind of a stubborn old coot. I hope that the rest of the Matrix wakes up and realizes the dream that they have been in for the last few years.

I understand what Dirk is saying, but we tried desparately to warn everyone, to no avail. Now, we have to hope that the mission will prove to be a failure and Bush exposed as the war criminal that he is. Thousands of Iraqi deaths are not appreciated or understood as significant by the American Matrix. American casualties, on the other hand, do tend to wake Americans up (eventually) as they did during the Vietnam war.

I don't know if it is unpatriotic to value an Iraqi life as much as an American life, and perhaps even more, since they were the sovereign ccountry invaded by us, but I do.

So, on one hand, I'm not wishing for more American deaths, but on the other hand, I'm wishing for the Iraqis to get their country back and get the U.S. out of there. Let the U.N. take over from here. Try Bush as a war criminal.

[roguevalley]

36. what went wrong is that a bunch of underdeveloped greed heads

took a fight with Iraq and made it personal. He was
going to avenge his poppy. They all belong in jail.
what are we doing attacking and warring with third
world countries?

[Democat]

37. Here is the big image of the cover

[MoonAndSun]

39. Oh dear, why did they have to emphasize his "manhood"?

or do you think it was done on purpose? I wonder what was going thru their minds when they agreed on the cover?

[Democat]

40. They should have cropped the picture!

Will Wallmart allow that cover on the stands where kids can see it? :)

[leftchick]

42. No Shit!

Is that a freakin summer squash in your pants aWol? For cripes sake they at least could have clipped that disgustingly fake "package" out.... :puke:

[rocktivity]

57. Of course meant to include the crotch--why wouldn't they?

It's not as though everyone has been talking about it on and off the record. And you can't expect those afilliated with Time magazine to read the likes of Salon ("Why did he have an erection upon seeing all those young men aboard the carrier?") or the Village Voice ("Discretion prevented anyone from mentioning that Bush's outfit gave him a very vivid basket. This was the first a time a president literally showed his balls. Check it out—your subconscious already has") or, heaven forbid, a liberal blog ("Remember when all of the t.v. pundits assumed Bush was invicible simply because he probably padded his crotch with a sock when he did his aircraft landing to declare an end to the war in Iraq?").

The alternative, of course, is to believe that Time magazine IS aware of the reaction to Commander Codpiece, and they deliberately did this cover shot to send the message to Rove And Co. that Bush has officially reached the beginning of the end.


rocknation

[MODemocrat]

61. That photo-op sure brought dignity back to the White House, right?

How very disgusting and repulsive; That embarrasses me to a point of no return for the president to look like this. We need a President with some real class, like, well any of the ten democratic candidates. God, I'm proud of all of them.

What a pathetic :freak:

[Nevernose]

38. Why is Time "surprised?" -- Great paragraph on WMDs

Of all the miscalculations on Iraq, few have been as surprising as the inability to find real evidence of Saddam's supposed weapons of mass destruction. Pentagon officials say the 1,200-strong team led by cia weapons expert David Kay, whose interim report is expected soon, has not found any stockpiles of deadly chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. So far, says an Administration official, "they have come across only parts and pieces and things—and that's about the best they are going to come up with."

Did this reporter not hear any of the speeches given by any of the weapons inspectors who had been there for years saying the same goddamned thing?

Otherwise, the section on WMD's is EXTREMEMLY damning.

[rocktivity]

60. It wasn't a question of evidence

It was a question of whether Saddam actually POSESSED weapons of mass destruction that he could use against the U.S. within 45 minutes. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN FOUND BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST. And Bush invaded Iraq before the inspectors were finished because he knew that if the weapons weren't found, he'd couldn't justify invading, taking the oil, and invading other Mideast countries from there.


rocknation

[Manix]

44. Many more will die..

for this man's foolishness.

[kayleybeth]

45. What a mess

I'm glad the the media is finally making an issue of this.

[Nottingham]

46. Great article!

and we are still in a Mess! :bounce: