Dean Hits Party Insiders for Their Clark Support

[Onlooker]

<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=4&u=/nm/20030928/ts_nm/politics_democrats_dc>

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) accused some party insiders on Sunday of desperation politics in backing Democratic presidential rival Wesley Clark (news - web sites), a retired general who voted Republican in the past.

Dean, who has campaigned as a Washington outsider, said members of the establishment embraced the former NATO (news - web sites) commander after White House bids of others in their circle sputtered.

"I think that Wes Clark is, first of all, a good guy," Dean told CBS's "Face the Nation." But Dean added, "I think what you see in the Wes Clark candidacy is a somewhat of a desperation by inside-the-Beltway politicians."

***

Dean has a really smart campaign. It find ways to take the wind out of the sails of their opponents. From at least the perspective of running a powerful campaign, the Dean candidacy looks promising.

[deutsey]

1. Hope you've got your flame-resistant gear on...

:hi:

[Vikingking66]

2. dammit

I'm a Dean supporter, and I was hoping he wouldn't do this.
Let Lieberman and whoever attack Clark; they can only
hurt themselves. He should stay above this.

[Julien Sorel]

4. I suspect his internal polls told him something he didn't like.

Dean attacking Clark was one of my standards for gauging how well Clark's campaign is doing; I didn't think it would happen this early, and I certainly didn't think he'd get this nasty and dishonest about it. Still, this particular issue is only going to be hot for a short time, so maybe Dean decided to go after it while he could.

[Eloriel]

8. There's no dishonesty about it at all

It's true. TParts of the Democratic Party are gunning for Dean. NOT because he can't win, but precisely because he can AND he threatens their power and influence, big time.

Hell, Dean supporters are already flooding regular Dem Party meetings all over the country. Dean supporters DO intend to take their country back, and on the way their party too.

Can't have that. Can NOT have a "people-powered" nominee, someone beholden ONLY to the people.

He's got $12.5 million dollars and this quarter isn't quite over yet. He could go to $15. ALL of it raised from The People.

That is some scarey shit for those who lick the boots of their corporate masters. So scarey they had to do something about it.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

10. Dean said Clark was in favor of the invasion. That's a lie.

Lie = dishonest. Clark also was not a Republican '25 days ago.' Again, Lie = dishonest. Your talk about corporate bootlicking is meaningless. If Dean is willing to lie like this, there is no lie he won't tell to get elected. He's every bit the corporate bootlicker you complain about, and he has a long record proving it.

[stickdog]

15. One could say almost anything about Clark's Iraq views and be correct.

That's the trouble with copying Kerry.

[Julien Sorel]

23. Nice try.

But Clark's views on Iraq, and pre-emptive military actions in general, are well spelled out. You have to take one or two sentences and spin them wildly to come up with the idea that he supported the invasion. But Dean is obviously willing to do it, along with anything else to get into office. In that, he reminds me of Bush.

[snooper2]

47. Dean reminds you of Bush...

:shrug:

[catforclark2004]

41. View that is Black & White/Good vs. evil......is so much more simple

Read the General Clark's book....Raging Modern Wars.....before you speak of Clark's Iraq View. It's called getting informed before speaking.....

[Selwynn]

44. AGREED.

[Ramsey]

59. Dean did not lie

First of all, I like Clark a lot, he's probably second or third on my favorite candoidates list right now. But to say Dean is lying about Clark's stance on Iraq is an exagerration. Dean has pointed out that Clark has waffled a bit on his stance on the war, which he has.

In an interview in September, Clark was asked about the Iraq resolution passed by Congress:

"On both the question of the initial authorization and the latest request for financing, General Clark said he was conflicted. He offered the case on both sides of the argument, as he appeared to struggle to stake out positions on issues that have bedeviled four members of Congress who supported the war and are now seeking the Democratic presidential nomination.

General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it." "
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0919-01.htm

Sorry, but that was a waffle. The next day, Clark took it all back and made a very strong statement:

"On Friday, Clark sought to clarify his comments in an interview with The Associated Press.

"Let's make one thing real clear, I would never have voted for this war," Clark said before a speech at the University of Iowa. "I've gotten a very consistent record on this. There was no imminent threat. This was not a case of pre-emptive war. I would have voted for the right kind of leverage to get a diplomatic solution, an international solution to the challenge of Saddam Hussein."

Clark's initial remarks left members of his campaign team a bit flummoxed."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/20/elec04.prez.clark.iraq.ap/


See. Clark left his own campaign reportedly "flummoxed". In the end, this brief waffle doesn't bother me, as a potential Clark supporter. But Dean is not lying when he points out Clark's own contradictory statements.

Edited to add second link.

[Julien Sorel]

63. Dean lied.

Had he stated that Clark 'waffled,' then he would have been being more truthful -- but he didn't do that. He stated uneqivocally that Clark supported the invasion. That is a falsehood.

He also accused Clark of being a Republican 25 days ago -- another lie which you didn't even try to address.

I'm simply amazed by how stubborn the Deanites are being on this issue. The guy lied -- it's pretty blatant.

[ozone_man]

65. Quit splitting hairs. Clark voted for Reagan!

He flip flopped on the war. He's an emergency Democrat planted by the DLC (IMO). If he quacks like a duck, he probably is a duck (Repub).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. You're Calling an Outright Falsehood "Splitting Hairs"??

I guess Bush is OK, then, after all, it was only 16 little words, right? Quit splitting hairs!

DTH

[ozone_man]

68. He shouldn't have used that wording, but there is no room for waffling

on this war. The same goes for Kerry and Lieberman, both who voted for the war. To waffle or show indecision on this matter does not show leadership qualities, but follower qualities, the kind of politician that wets his finger and tests the political wind before choosing his stance.

This war was a dreadful mistake and anyone that had anything to do with it, even if it was indecision should bear some blame. The same goes for Senator Clinton, blaming Bush for faulty intelligence. My own young kids knew this evidence was phony from the beginning.

Clark is no doubt a smart guy and all, but anyone who voted for Reagan doesn't pass my litmus test as a Democrat.

[Julien Sorel]

71. Leaders should not tell blatant lies on national TV.

It looked bad for Clinton, and it looks bad for Dean, who hasn't even gotten close to office, and he's already lying. I can only wonder what kind of stuff he'll do when the stakes are even higher.

[SharonAnn]

69. You said it, I couldn't have said it better. And you're right about

Dean supporters getting active in the Democratic Party for the first time. At our recent area Truman Day Dinner, the Knoxville Dean supporters had 4+ tables (more than 40 people). It was unbelievable!

I love it, the "people powered energy" has got some parts of this party moving. And around here, it needs some moving because it's been an old, dead, closed system for many years. And we've lost more and more elected offices and have less and less power. But the ones running things were handging on and not letting any new blood in.

[diplomats]

29. I was wondering about the timing, too

Frankly, I was very surprised he did this. Lieberman's campaign's a mess, so I could understand his desperation.

[Bandit]

61. How is "He is a Good Guy" an attack on Clark?

He was attacking DLC and Democratic "Insiders" not Clark. Jeez get it right would you.

[liberalnurse]

3. Dean was very lite on Clark in my opinion.

I heard somewhere here on DU or cable news that the goal of winning an election is to position yourself as an outsider of the Washington beltway. The people generally dislike the beltway control and tend to vote for an outsider over the insiders.

Maybe this is Dean's approach for the week?

[Cocoa]

5. this was the first time Dean's "outsider" stance resonated with me

up until now, I haven't gotten the feeling that's often expressed about the "DLC controlling the party" or whatever. I see a wide-open primary with a lot of good choices, esp. Kucinich.

Clark is the first time I've gotten the feeling of an anointed candidate, although I got that feeling when Clinton ran the first time, and Clinton turned out to be a good president.

Also, Clinton is very influential in the party, but I don't see him as "controlling" it by any means.

[MIMStigator]

20. This was the fist time Dean's "desperate" stance resonated with me

I thought all the anti Clark business was only his supporters and he'd stay above it all. Now he looks desperate.

[Democat]

6. The Dean/Lieberman Dem bashing strategy comes across as desperate

By bashing other candidates (even if he tries to do it without seeming like he's doing it), Dean is not helping the Democratic Party.

I like Dean and Clark, but Dean is starting to act more like Lieberman with his attacks on Clark.

[PassingFair]

7. Yo! Hey!

Doesn't it bother anyone here, just a little bit, that many are "suprised" that Clark chose to run as a democrat? I mean would it be so hard to find out what party the guy has been registered with?

If he's such a great general who "voted republican" in the past, why doesn't he run as a repuke and split the vote?

What's the deal with this guy, anyway? He can't remember if he voted for Rayguns? WTF!!!!!!!! I may not always remember who I voted for, but I damn well know who I DIDN'T vote for.

:eyes: Does the phrase *** from a hole in the ground come to mind?

[roguevalley]

18. I wasn't aware that in this country you are not allowed to be different

or change or grow. If you make a decision a decade or two ago, you
MUST carry it. Too bad we aren't a truly free country anymore. I am sure if you searched, there are 'skeletons' in every candidates
closet. Too bad they aren't being held to the same standard as Clark.
The sins of the fathers...

[PassingFair]

22. I would question the political character

... of anyone whose only claim to party affiliation is that he's "channeling" the politics of a dead jewish lawyer.....

[ozone_man]

30. Yes, it bothers me. and yes, I remember all of my past votes

during presidential elections. Nope, Clark doesn't pass my litmus test for a Democrat. I do think he is a DLC candidate offered to neutralize the Dean threat to their power.

[VolcanoJen]

9. I'm not about to pick on Dean for campaigning and doing his best...

... to win the Democratic nomination. Hell, Al Gore was waaaay too tough on Bill Bradley, in my opinion, but ya do what ya gotta do to win the nomination. No harm, no foul, and what Dean is saying is fair.

I say this as someone who is leaning heavily Clark, with Edwards now occupying my second-place slot, which Dean formerly occupied.

:-)

[Upfront]

28. Ah Politics

Fun isn't it. I think Dean spoke the truth. I wonder about Clark but am willing to give it more time. Dean can hit much harder then that. He has gone easy so far. Gep., Joe, and John deserve what they get. Dean is right about the DLC selecting Clark. Fine with me, let the best man win. I do hope it won't get to bad with Dean and Clark as Clark would make a great VP for Dean. We need to stay calm and remember what the end goal is.

[metisnation]

36. Coming out of the primaries

lets us not be detracted from our objective. Keep your eyes on the prize ladies and gentlemen. We need the most powerful 1, 2 knockout punch of a candiadate.


:kick:


America Works Best
When Union Yes!

[MGKrebs]

11. Regardless of how it is being "perceived",

he is not attacking Clark. He is implying, no, not implying- he is saying- that the Clark campaign has been engineered by the DLC because they don't want an outsider possibly winning.

It's the truth and it needs to be said.

[Onlooker]

17. Part of the qualification is the ability to run a campaign

Clinton won because he ran a really good campaign. Bush won because he had a really good (and very dishonest) campaign. By the same token, people like Dole and Gore lost because their campaigns made a number of high-profile mistakes.

So, far Dean is the only one whose campaign shows imagination and wins a lot of media attention. His campaign is aggressive and does the unpredictable.

If Clark puts together a better campaign, he'll be more interesting. We need a really smart campaign to defeat Bush. Wake up! Politics is not longer about issues, it's only about presentation. The one who can best present a liberal agenda couched in terms that appeal to moderates gets my vote.

So far, only the Dean campaign is showing the ability to think outside the box when it comes to running a campaign.

[PassingFair]

19. Correction...

Bush didn't win, he was installed....

[Kahuna]

51. The reality is, the Democratic agenda is the Democratic Agenda..

The primaries are just a series of contests to see who can best sell our agenda.

[Mikhale]

67. With all due respect

My idea of "our" agenda doesn't include fundraisers for Bush, publicity shots with Ratko Mladic, trying to seize the Pristina Airport and, after months of strategically watching the other candidates duke it out, entering into the primaries by asking if anyone has a spare platitude.

[OHdem10]

25. Bottom Line --NH Polls Dean lost 11points as Clark moved into 3rdplace

Seeing Clark was taking votes from him he went on the attack whch is fine. But to use the Karl Rove playbook and the republican spin says a lot to me.

[pruner]

26. post link or shut the fuck up

Dean hasd not dropped 11 points and I'd like to see you prove otherwise.

the latest polls show Dean with a double digit lead over Kerry, who has a double digit lead over Clark.

[Kahuna]

53. But he's trending down, right?

That's the issue. And if you think that the Dean campaign isn't very concerned with this downward trend you have a lot to learn about campaign politics.

[MGKrebs]

27. What are you talking about?

What Rove playbook? Who is using it?

Where do you see an attack?

" Dean noted that Clark voted for Republicans Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) and Richard Nixon for president. "I think that's going to be hard to swallow for a lot of Democrats," Dean said.

Fair statement, I think.

[Kahuna]

52. Talking points straight from Drudge. Dispicable.

:puke:

[Ramsey]

60. Actually, they are from John Kerry

Maybe Drudge carried this too, I don't know, but John Kerry made this criticism of Clark. It isn't clear to me, why if true, it's despicable. I think it is valid to question a candidate's motivations for changing parties and Clark should be prepared to articulate that answer, particularly in seeking the highest nomination in the land from the Democratic Party. We should be able to feel confident that his heart is in the right place. Again, I like Clark, but I think these are fair questions to ask.

Excerpt:
"Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry warned Tuesday that retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, whose entry into the race for the Democratic presidential nomination has reshaped the campaign, will have to answer for his past support of Republicans Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan.

''I know that when he voted for Reagan and he voted for Nixon, I was fighting against both of them,'' Kerry said in an interview with The Herald amid a daylong fundraising trip to Miami.

''I think your life history is what you're offering people,'' added Kerry, who was placed on Nixon's infamous enemies list for his antiwar activism upon his return from Vietnam. ``My life history is I fought Reagan, fought Nixon, fought the war in Vietnam, fought their struggle against civil rights. I fought for civil rights, and I fought against their tax cuts for the wealthy.'' "

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/6846484.htm

[Kahuna]

50. The "truth" is Clark was drafted by people like me...

tens of thousands of people like me. If the DLC wants to support a candidate who obviously has appeal to people like me then that is a very smart thing to do. Clark did not proclaim his desirability. People like me proclaimed his desirability. Apparently we were right because Clark is leading both the national polls and the polls against bush. He is also gaining in state polls.

It's too bad that people see this as some kind of high school game. A popularity contest instead of the most important election of our lifetime.

Many of you have no experience with past elections because you are too young to have firsthand knowledge and how these things shake themselves out. We (Democrats) have had many candidates nominated who had no chance of winning. Democrats who have experienced these loser candidates firsthand are sick of it! Now is not the time to be overly idealistic and throw good judgement to the wind. Now, more than ever we need a candidate who is electable. If the people who vote can see it and the DLC can see it, too bad you can't see it too.

[5thGenDemocrat]

62. I'm an ABBer. Here's how I see it

Given that the DLC is behind Clark's campaign, I'd still rather see the entrenched powers-that-be run a guy like Wesley Clark than a guy like Joe Lieberman. That said, I don't think Dean's comment is unfair in any way, shape or form. Politics is tough. Get a helmet.
The Michigan primary is, like, next August. I don't have to make my mind up before then. And, regardless, I'm going to vote for whoever our nominee is. Even if it IS Joe Lieberman.
Whether or not the candidate is a DLCer or not makes little difference to me as a fifth generation (maybe seventh generation) Democrat. If Clark is a DLCer, so is Clinton. I'm not a sycophant about Bill, but I did love him because he was a big winner for us. That means something, too.
Dean has run a remarkable campaign so far just to get to where he is. If this race turns out to be a donnybrook between Clark and Dean, that's okay -- provided we all remember that getting rid of pResident Dopey is our first and final objective.
John
I appreciate that this particular thread is being handled in a mutually respectful way. Keep up the good work, kids.

[dolstein]

12. No need to get snippy Howard

First of all, Wes Clark's appeal isn't limited to the inside-the-beltway crowd.

Second, Wes Clark is indeed a good guy.

Third, attacking Clark's supporters and suggesting that his campaign is part of some conspiracy among Washington insiders to stop Dean from getting the nomination is a truly desperate act not befitting a candidate who leads in the polls as well as fundraising.

Get off your friggin high horse, Howard.

[stickdog]

16. All the proof you need that Dean was merely telling the truth. (NT)

[Kahuna]

54. He's taking himself waaay to seriously if he teally believes..

that he himself, 'represents the Democratic wing of the party.' In essense he telling all of us who don't agree with that that we're wrong. How dare he.

[tsipple]

13. If That's a Bash...

...It's very gentle. Dean is positioning himself, as he should. And I think he's definitely got a point.

I do not like being told for whom I must vote, especially by the crew in Washington, D.C. who managed to do such a fine job these past few years. (Why is Terry McAuliffe still employed?) I do not like "engineered" candidacies. I do not like fake draft movements. I do not like smoke-filled rooms. I do not like Tim Russert picking my Democratic standard bearer. I like both democracy (small d) and the Democratic Party (big D), and I like empowering people and voters.

"Call me crazy, but I want a Democrat to be the Democratic Party nominee for President."

[stickdog]

14. Dean's 100% right.

[dArKeR]

21. The Democrat insiders are doing what the Repukes are doing in CA now.

Immoral! This is such a disgrace. Dean is 100% correct.

[Nicholas_J]

31. Dean is getting back

wat he gave, attacking people who were on the hot seat making decisions, while he had nothing to lose, and was monday morning quarterbacking it all the way.

Not that it matters, it appears that Dean is losing support to Clark, and the latest Zogby Polls show that Dean is BLEEDING support to Clark. A Draft Dodge attacking a General is not going to cut it.


This is Dean desperation.

It is amusing how Dean supporters claim that Dean never has attacked or attacks anyone. Clark has not attacked Dean, but Dean is scared.

[IndianaGreen]

34. If Dean is a draft dodger, then Kerry is a war criminal

Dean reported for his physical and did not pass it.

Are you a veteran, or are you a chickenhawk?

[Kahuna]

57. Rush Limbaugh reported for his physical too...

Rush had a boil and dean had a bad back <sic> that didn't stop him from sking for a month. Please!

[GalleryGod]

45. I concur,Nick . This thread was a "target rich environment"

for adding to my IGNORE list!

[Kahuna]

56. Really? I was in NH Saturday at the rally where Clark..

personally thanked the draft movement. Since you weren't part of the draft movement you obviously know nothing about it and you're not qualified or knowledgable to speak about it.

Many links were provided to the draft Clark sites this summer. If you failed to avail yourself by visiting them and finding out what the draft movement was about, profess your ignorance. But don't make spin up on the fly. You only embarrass yourself and the candidate that you support.

It's not too late for you to educate yourself about draftClark as many of the draft sites are still up. You can start here: http://www.draftwesleyclark.com

[paulk]

24. This is why I'm having a hard time with Dean

He's running his campaign as if he's a 3rd party candidate. He's based everything on motivating disaffected Democrats and picking up independents who may or may not vote Democrat if he doesn't get the nomination.

His candidacy is based on dividing the Democratic party against themselves. I don't see this as a good strategy come next summer - when we're all going to need to pull together.

This statement of his has finally crystalized things for me. I can't support Dean in the primaries. I think the style of his campaign will make it difficult to win next November.

[Kucinich04]

33. Dean was prodded into this comment...

He did NOT bring up Clark, the interviewer did. And Dean BEGAN with (and repeated) that he thinks Clark is a GOOD MAN. He comments were not an 'attack' by any stretch. True, he is running on an almost 'independent' platform. But is Clark really doing anything different? None of the Dems are running on a 'business as usual' platform, are they?

Dean wants CHANGE, we all want CHANGE, don't we? Change from Shrub, and from DC politics as usual. We are all sick of the DC Dems being wussies, and I don't mind Dean calling attention to this fact. Even if it is somewhat divisive, the fact remains: we are not *all* that much happier with the Dems as they stand now than we are with Shrub. Dean is emboldening Dems by his words, and they are reacting to his prodding (well, that, and the polls, lets face it) by speaking out against Shrub a lot more lately. Dean is exactly what we need right now. Whether he is the 'best' candidate for President in terms of winning is debatable, of course. But at this point in time in America, we need someone saying what Dean is saying. I applaud Dean for everything he is doing right now, whether he gets the nod or not in the long run.

[Kahuna]

58. He wants "change?" So why is he attacking the guy..

who polls the best against bush? If he really wanted change he would say, for the good of my country, I will step aside right now and endorse General Clark because more Americans think he is electable against bush. He only wants change if HE can deliver it. Even if evidence (polls of voter sentiments) suggest that they don't think he can deliver in November, 2004, he's just gonna stick in there anyway until his Texas Rangers can knock on every door on America and convince people that he is the prodigal who can win against all odds of Americans collectively want him. What hubris.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

35. That's one way of looking at it...

Another way of looking at it is that Dean is using the primaries to address the ongoing problems the Dems have that may have lost them the last Presidential election (although in the end it didn't).

That problem is the rightward shift of the Democratic party. Basically Dean is showing that the Dems better start paying attention to the left wing of their party or the Dems will NOT win elections. What point is there in picking up the centre when you lose the left?

Dean seems to be saying that HE can energise the left wing of the Dem party better than ANY other candidate, and that with that energy, he can make inroads on the centre WITHOUT compromising Democratic beliefs.

Whether he truly IS listening to the left, or he is just shining them on to gain their support is a valid question, but at least he DOES recognise the left's power.

[paulk]

74. Dean has done a great job energizing the left wing

of the Dem. party. And he deserves credit for that.

I just wish he himself had better credentials as a member of the left wing of the party. But, if Clark can turn himself into a Democrat, I guess Dean can turn himself into a leftist. :)

[SharonAnn]

70. I don't see it that way. He's bringing a lot of people into the party

who hadn't been active before.

In many areas, the party wasn't too welcoming to newcomers in the past so I think it's great to have newcomers in the mix.

[paulk]

72. but will those newcomers stick with the Democrats if

Dean doesn't get the nomination? Even Dean has expressed some doubts that they will.

I guess that's my whole point - if Dean is dissing the "other" Democratic party - and that's how I read his statement, then he's hurting the chances that the new people he's brought in will have any loyalty to that "other" Democratic party. Their loyalty will be to Dean.

[Kucinich04]

32. If you didn't WATCH Dean's appearance on MTP, Why SPEAK about it?

I swear, a lot of you people are obviously remarking on Dean's interview solely vis-a-vis this media report. Don't we know any better than taking THEIR word, after all this time? Even if it is Reuters (which I find FAR more fair than AP, myself), there is no substitute for actually 'being there', is there? If you weren't watching, you ought to abstain from comment. Honestly.

Dean did not 'attack' Clark in this interview. I just watched it, then came online to see what the press and my fellow DU'ers were thinking about it. I am (obviously) a Kucinich supporter first, but I'm up in the air about my second choice, and right now I hold Dean and Clark tied at second, followed by Kerry.

At *this* point, Dean's credentials of being an Anti-war, Anti-Bush, outside-the-beltway, stone-cold Democrat FAR outweight Clark's claims to the same. I'm not 'anti'-Clark, not at all, and don't think Dean is either. But I'm still waiting to see somebody prove that Clark was against the Iraq War, before it started, on other than tactical grounds - this is critical to me in deciding which candidate to back right now. So far, I've not seen enough proof of 'who' Clark really is, and for that reason, I cannot support him as my front-runner. I'd accept him for VP, but thats the limit for me right now. But that could change...

Dean's comments about Clark were nothing out of the ordinary for a Primary Race, he said nothing that would jeopardize their later ability to run as a team. I'd have preferred it if Dean had caged some of his accusations in a more questioning tone, more like "Mr. Clark is going to need to show a skeptical American People that he, a General, is truly an Anti-War Democrat, and not Johnny-Come-Lately posing as an Anti-War Democrat just because its the cool thing to be right now". But right now, after hearing SO much ass-kissing from the Dems in DC ever since November 2000, I'm just happy to have Dem running who isn't afraid to say what he really feels, and be ready to back his arguments with facts.

I have to say, I really hadn't heard Dean speak at any length; aside from a few quick soundbytes, and hearsay in the form of reports (media and DU) from his various appearances, but he was quite excellent on MTP just now. Despite the jerkoff interviewer (forgive me for not knowing that guy's name, I'm sure I should by now), Dean rarely wavered, always had a reasoned comeback, and he never missed a chance to justifiably attack the GOP and Bush. You could tell he's been already been asked all these same questions concerning his past 'changes of heart', and has his responses down cold. The subtly hostile (obviously probing for weaknesses, trying to catch Dean in a lie - I bet this dude interviewing him would NEVER have interviewed Shrubby with this accusatory tone of voice!) questions concerning his past support for NAFTA, the WTO, 'siding' with Newt over raising the retirement age and cutting the Medicare budget, etc, were defended (I thought) very well - he simply admitted he has changed his mind!

Personally, I found this common sense honesty refreshing. I respect people who are willing to admit they were wrong about supporting something when the facts on the ground turn out to be different from the initial assumptions, particularly if they brought up the potential issues way back when. Kerry clearly did so re: the IRaq War, with his comments from the floor just prior to voting "Yes" on the resolution to allow * to use force. I think this willingness to be flexible in your views is critical. One of the biggest reasons I hate the Pubbies so much is because they always consider their initial opinion and hardened dogma more important than the developing facts. There is nothing wrong with honest changes of heart, so long as one is not simply flip-flopping to pander to their audience. I don't beleive Dean is doing that, but I'm more than willing to entertain it if somebody has an argument to the contrary...

Bottom-line: Dean/Clark would make an AWESOME ticket. Dean and Clark supporters should not be *fighting* each other, anymore than the men themselves should. I don't think they ARE. This is all normal primary politics, nothing Dean said was over-the-top. He spoke to real 'unknowns' about Clark that exist, and Clark needs to come out and make these 'knowns' before ANY of us support him over Dean, AFAIC. I also think Dean knows Clark needs to clarify some of these issues before he can choose Clark as his running mate. He may be testing Clark to see how he reacts to his statements...

[w4rma]

38. Thanks, Kucinich04! That was a very informative post! (n/t)

[WilliamPitt]

37. Oh wah wah wah

[goforit]

39. Way to go DEAN!!!..................DLC is GOP's #1 cheerleader!!!

Yep.....

Clark will be tripping big on this one when the party is over.

[tlb]

40. Dean is absolutley right on this one

The DNC/DLC, not the GOP, is his biggest opponent. It's not like this is any secret. They need a "tame" democrat who will play along with the Clinton/Maculiffe machine.

I think Howard if he is successful would make it a priority to clean house.

[catforclark2004]

42. Clark will stay above the Fray...and continue to surge!

Clark will stay above the Fray...and continue to surge!I am readying for #1 battle...just like the Bushies are...keeping my eye on the prize

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/29/politics/29CAMP.html

Bush '04 Readying for One Democrat, Not 10

Published: September 29, 2003

....."Each of them has relative strengths and weaknesses, but happily for us, in each case the relative weaknesses outweigh the relative strengths," said Ed Gillespie, the chairman of the Republican National Committee. "They're all Howard Dean now. They have adopted harsh, bitter, personal attacks as their approach. They are a party of protest and pessimism and offer no positive agenda of their own."

Like the Democrats, the Bush campaign is convinced that the election of 2004 could turn on a relative handful of votes in key states, as the election of 2000 did.

[LeftIsBest]

43. Clark is riding off of his reputation from Cable news networks

I don't know why on earth he would want to be president other than to set someone else up(clintons) or to work as an operative for Repubs and fall back after he wins the nomination. All I know is that this dude has no political experience and almost no sound plans other than his recent tax repeal proposal. It's amazing isn't it. He's the most popular candidate and has no detailed plans or any experience. Guess that's why Shwarzenegger is doing so well. Anyway,
LIEberman, kerry, gephardt, and Clark will all tear their base voters apart. Dean is on his way to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[GalleryGod]

46. I Think not.

Maybe back to Pennsylvania Avenue in Brattleboro:P but not D.C.

[SayitAintSo]

48. If he doesn't get his clock cleaned first....

Dean looks desperate himself .... attacking Clark at this stage of the game.

[returnable]

49. If Dean really believed this...

...why the hell didn't he bring it up at the debate when he had a chance to confront Clark face to face? :shrug:

And why was Dean holding meetings with a prominent "Republican" earlier this month on campaign strategy? :shrug:

My interest in Dean took a hit after his implosion on "Meet the Press" in June.

He took another step back yesterday with his "Face the Nation" interview.

He slams another candidate for past positions, yet says with a straight face he himself can flip-flop cuz he's willing to evolve when new facts are presented.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Dean is looking more and more like a desperate establishment politician to me.

[bobthedrummer]

55. Outside of Dennis Kucinich I like DR.Dean in any event I vote Dem

right now I'm doing grassroot style in 107th Cong. Dist. for Dennis Kucinich everyday in everyway Kucinich.

[Gman]

64. The Deanie Boppers are on a rampage

get out of the way!

Fuck Dean.

[PassingFair]

73. Nice.

n/t