Mom Charged in Daughter's Rape

[TeeYiYi]

Mom Charged in Daughter's Rape
DA Says Mother Thought It Was Time Girl Had Sex

June 1, 2005 -- A Suffolk County, N.Y., mother has been charged with accessory to rape after allegedly standing by while two men sexually assaulted her 13-year-old daughter and the girl's 14-year-old friend in a hotel room because she believed it was time the teenager had sex.

"She was amused by it, she thought it was just something that should happen, the sooner it happened the better," said Westchester County District Attorney Jeanine Pirro.

The incident allegedly occurred on April 10 in a White Plains hotel room, after the woman took the girls on a two-day shopping trip, Pirro said. The woman allegedly invited two men she met at a restaurant to the hotel room for a party, Pirro said.

The 41-year-old mother's name was not released to protect the identity of the two girls. She was indicted Tuesday on charges of accessory to second-degree rape, endangering the welfare of a child and unlawfully dealing with a child, among other crimes.

The two men, Gilberto Gonzalez, 19, of Pleasantville, and Michael Berger, 18, of White Plains, where charged with second-degree rape and other sex crimes. They could each face up to 15 years in prison if convicted of the rape charges.

More: http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=808689&page=1

TYY

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Are you fucking kidding me?

Wow, seriously? That is quite possibly the most morally bankrupt thing I have EVER heard of!

[TeeYiYi]

2. Ordinarily I'm pretty jaded when it comes to LBN . . .

. . . but this story made me sick to my stomach.

TYY

[FreedomAngel82]

115. Same here

How could a mother do that to their daughter and her friend? How disgusting. :puke:

[Bigmack]

42. ".. most morally bankrupt"...??

Nobody died.

It's truly a horrible thing, but I'm holding my "Most Morally Bankrupt" awards for... oh, say for instance... people who cause the needless deaths of 1600 American troops and untold thousands of civilians.

I'm not jumping you, Vash, I just have a bad "bullshit patriotism" hangover from Memorial Day.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

44. That is where you and I differ.

You shouldn't assume death is the worst thing that can happen to a person. That certainly isn't a universally held opinion.

[Eloriel]

48. THAT's certainly true

Death is NOT always the worst thing that can happen to a person.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

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[BlueIris]

95. Perhaps to you. And people do die as the result of being raped,

via things like contracting HIV and other life-threatening diseases, or soley from the trauma of the event itself--like any other act of brutal violence, it can be deadly.

And I don't even know what to think about your statement that "generally, people who think rape is worse than death have some 'pretty serious sexual hang-ups.'" It's vile that you think it's acceptable to generalize about something like that.

[foreigncorrespondent]

77. I'm sorry...

...but am with Vash on this.

Those girls are going to have to live with this experience for the rest of their lives. And in some cases of child abuse, I can more than guarantee you that survivors will tell you death would be a God send for them.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

98. You don't speak for the world -

who are you to decide how traumatic it is to be raped? Or betrayed by the one person in the world who should be keeping you safe? Have you ever been raped?

I feel for this poor child - death would be a mercy for her, because of attitudes like this. Makes me sick.

on edit - read further, evidently it was not forcible in the sense that nobody held her down, but it's still rape, and this little girl will probably turn out to be one fucked-up woman.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

107. You've obviously never thought about trying to commit suicide.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. "LiberallyInclined" my ass.

[Megahurtz]

108. The thing is, Liberally

is that you don't really know how traumatic the lifelong effects of rape can be until you've experienced it yourself. Different traumas have differing horrifying effects on different people.

If a person gets Post Traumatic Stress from a certain trauma, it's almost impossible to just "turn the brain off" from reacting a certain way as a result of that trauma.

And seriously, how do you know that:
lots of people have to live with things, horrible things, and "do just fine"???
And that the vast majority of victims who are not malajusted to begin with get over things rather quickly??? What the hell?
:wtf:

It sounds as if you have lived a pretty sheltered life, gathering from the fucking cold statements you have made.

[BlueIris]

110. "fucking cold statements"

that were also gross, insane generalizations, equating rape with sex, instead of recognizing it for the violent crime it is, among other disgusting things. Really had no valid purpose for existing. Repulsive. I hope those posts didn't offend too many survivors or rape or sexual abuse before they were mercifully deleted.

[Wabbajack]

86. I don't agree

Killing thousands of strangers is very very VERY bad but raping your own child is worse.

[LiberallyInclined]

92. i don't agree.

read your post over a few times, and ask yourself if you really believe it to be true.
(btw- the woman in this case didn't rape her own child- she let someone else do it.)

[Wabbajack]

121. Same difference

and yes I do.

I drop a nuke on a major city before I'd harm someone I care about.

[AlCzervik]

3. It's stories like these that remind me of why i hate people.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

11. can I say ditto?

yep, I can, because Limbo didn't invent it.

[earth mom]

23. Ditto that ditto!

:puke:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lebkuchen]

39. ...or why I prefer to live in Germany

[heliarc]

50. Die Freiheit

I hate to remind you of one of the greatest accessory cases of all time, but the German people sat by while at least 6 million Jews, Disabled people, Communists and Homosexuals were put to their deaths. There continues to be a significant amount of practiced anti semitism in Germany as well as --yes, I'm sure of it-- rape. I don't know that living in Germany protects you from Sociopaths. No matter how much you love cake, Lebkuchen.

Heliarc

er hat Zahne,
Und sie tragt ihr
im gesicht

Brecht

[bobbieinok]

59. 'Und der Haifisch, der hat Zaehne, Und er traegt sie im Gesicht.

Und McHeath, er hat ein Messer, Aber das Messer sieht man nicht.

Bobby Darin sang the English version Mac the Knife

and then later used the Moritat as a commercial (!!!!?????)

[lebkuchen]

105. The US has its own resume of terror to fall back on

beginning with the decimation of the American Indian population.

Then there is nearly 500 years of slavery, predating the Constitution and well beyond its inception (the US has been slave much longer than it's been "free"--who'da thunk? Not you!), 100 years of segregation/discrimination/lynchings, and 40 years of anything remotely different, despite what the Constitution says about every American's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

How many millions did the US kill in its invasion of Vietnam? How many deaths is the US responsible for in its secret wars in Central America, indeed, its secret wars around the globe?

And the US invasion of Iraq? Save your sanctimony for your koffee klatch of like-minded ne'er-do-wells. The US hardly has a right to stand on principle, and neither do you.

[artemisia1]

123. Not fair. The majority of Germans living today were born

after the Holocaust. Hitler came to power 72 years ago, for goodness sakes. Time to stop beating a freakin' dead horse.

[Retired AF Dem]

53. Only in Germany can someone advertise in the paper

that they are looking for someone to eat and someone actually answers the ad. :)

[Maestro]

4. Are people really this ignorant, mean and disturbed?

Oh hell, don't even answer. I know the answer.x(

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Having worked with street kids, I have to say "yes, and more so"

:-(

When you've talked to a teenager whose mother moved away without telling her during school hours, so that the girl came home to an empty, abandoned house, then you know that people really are this ignorant, mean, and disturbed. :-(

[Triana]

58. These people are poster material for why...

...some people should never EVER have children or pets.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. I hope you know the answer

I think we see a lot of the world's evils in our schools (unfortunately).

[bloom]

5. I hope the girl

has someone responsible to live with now.

That is depressing.

[rodeodance]

12. sad family--and the child pays.

[MuseRider]

6. Disgusting.

Simply disgusting. I do however remember back in High School some of the guys fathers would give them the money to go get a prostitute because it was time they became a man. :eyes: That was in the late 60's early 70's but I thought we had progressed beyond that. I guess I have been out of that kind of loop for a while.

[noiretextatique]

15. no progress at all, regression in fact

this story is just unfuckingbelievable. and of course were it the reverse, i doubt it would have even made the paper.

[MaineDem]

7. Despicable

The only thing I can rationally think of right now.

[msanthrope]

8. Too bad she can only be charged with accessory to rape--

personally, I think the betrayal of a mother, and the premeditation of this act call for a much more serious charge.

[rocktivity]

16. She procured the guys and bought the booze

That makes her a pimp and a conspirator as well!!

:mad:
rocknation

[geek tragedy]

19. Accessory to rape = same thing as rape

Throw this piece of offal in jail at least for the rest of her childbearing years.

[EST]

126. I am totally with you on this one.

The fundamental, horribly debilitating essential is betrayal and the homicidal desperation it can leave behind.
Betrayal, though highly subjective, has to be the motivating factor in many of the darkest examples of human atrocity.
I shudder in painful helplessness.

[Dhalgren]

9. O.k., this is an unforgivable act on the part of this mother.

She should go to jail for a long time for being this...stupid(?), callous(?) - I don't know what you call it beyond "criminal". That being said, the mother did not stand by while the girls were "forcibly raped", she allowed them to have consensual sex. Now, I know that a 13 or 14 year old cannot legally have consensual sex and it is a crime without doubt, but it isn't the same as watching as the two girls were raped against their will.

From the article:

"The mother went to a nearby gas station to buy beer and hard lemonade for the teenagers, and she did nothing to stop the two young men when they started kissing and fondling the girls on the beds in the hotel room."

'"It's clear that the mother knew what was going on," Pirro said. "Not only did she know what was going on, not only did she have the boys in the bedroom, not only did she buy the alcohol, but the girls had indicated to her that they had sex."'

She must be held accountable for this, but it was "statutory rape" - legally it may make no difference, and shouldn't, but the tone of the snips was that it was "forced" and, apparently, it wasn't.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

14. think of all the moms who are guilty on one level or another...

including all the moms who find out, or suspect, their daughters are being molested but pretend they aren't aware of it, because they are afraid of confrontation, or of having the family name soiled, or whatever...

[noiretextatique]

17. the headline does give the impression that it was forcible rape

and that does not seem to be the case.

[TheWraith]

18. That does make a big difference.

It's still reckless and stupid, but nowhere near as bad as the article would have implied.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. Uhm, she got them drunk.

Considering it was given to minors, that's not much better than using GHB on someone, and that is, by any standard, rape.

[ridgerunner]

26. Huh?

Where did you find the phrase "consensual sex" anywhere in that article? This is rape, plain and simple. Giving alcohol to 13 and 14 year old girls that you just met, then having sex with them is not "consenual sex", it is forced rape.

[TeeYiYi]

32. At what point did it become consensual? . . .

. . . When the mom assured the men that the girls were 16? How does a drunk 13-year-old girl consent to sex with an 18-year-old man? She doesn't. Your argument for consent was lost once alcohol was introduced into the scenario. The mother consented. The children did not. And, according to the following story from WNBC, the mother was in the hotel room while the girls were 'getting their first sexual experience over with'. One in the bathroom, the other outside the front door in the hallway. Whew. I'll bet those two girls are both so grateful to be rid of that pesky virginity. Lucky for them they had a thoughtful mom standing by to make the decision for them and to provide plenty of liquor to ease the pain. Ack.
:argh:

The alleged rapes occurred on April 10, after the woman, her daughter and two of the daughter's friends, ages 13 and 14, came to White Plains from Sayville, on Long Island, for two days of shopping.

The girls ran into the men -- Gilberto Gonzalez, 19, of Pleasantville, and Michael Berger, 18, of White Plains -- in an elevator at the City Center mall and again in a restaurant and exchanged cell phone numbers, the district attorney said. Eventually, all went "to get comfortable" at the Crowne Plaza Hotel, where the mother and girls had taken a room as part of their overnight outing.

The mother bought beer and hard lemonade for the teenagers and did not interfere as two of the girls began making out with the men on the room's two beds, Pirro said. She allegedly told the men that the girls were 16, although 16 is still under the age of consent.

"A parent cannot consent" to a child's having sex, the district attorney said. "There is a line below which we will not allow a child to have sex without someone being charged criminally for it."

Gonzalez and the 14-year-old girl then had sex in the bathroom and the daughter and Berger had sex in a hallway outside the room, Pirro said.

"It's clear that the mother knew what was going on," Pirro said, adding that when the girls talked about having sex, the mother allegedly said, "What happens in White Plains stays in White Plains," a takeoff on a Las Vegas tourism slogan.

Pirro said the mother said afterward that it was time for her daughter to "have sex and get it over with, the sooner it happens the better."

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4552667/detail.html

TYY

[Dhalgren]

81. At no point in my post did I condone nor justify

any of the actions taken by any of the "adults" in this awful, ugly situation. And there are three "adults" who deserve jail time for their crimes. I was simply pointing out that the tone of the OP article implied that the rapes were forced, but they don't seem to have been. Is it statutory rape? Absolutely. Is it statutory rape when a father takes his 14 year old son to a prostitute for his "first time"? Absolutely. No where did I see that anyone was drunk. The passage you sited says that the mother, "did not interfere as two of the girls began making out with the men on the room's two beds." I am not saying that it wasn't rape - nowhere do I say that. It is just that I, like many here, thought that the mother watched as the girls where forcibly raped - that is a different story than the one that has come to light in the rest of the article and in follow-ups - that's all. Not that it wasn't a crime, but that it was a different crime than the one first implied.

[ridgerunner]

84. Wow

I just can't understand your logic here. Two girls, 13 and 14, are given alcohol and then sexually assulted by two adult males. Is that not forcible rape?

We, as adults all know the effects of alcohol. And yet you want us to beleive that these two girls had consenual sex? I don't buy it, and I can't understand why you do.

[Dhalgren]

96. I think that it is a legitimate thing to make distinctions between

different crimes. If I trick or coerce you into giving me your wallet that is a crime; if I beat you senseless and then take your wallet that too is a crime, but a different one. There is no virtue in equating all crimes. I am not saying that a crime wasn't committed; I'm just saying that the circumstances and actual sequence of events makes a difference in the evaluation of any crime. To say all rapes are the same is the same as saying all assaults are the same or all robberies are the same or all murders are the same - that is not the case. What the mother and the two men did in that hotel room is bad enough on the merits, without making the crimes into something that they are not.

If that is not an understandable proposition, then all I can say is - wow!

[Evergreen Emerald]

97. but consider the fact that the mother told them to do it.

To children the parents are everything. They depend on them for their very lives. They are taught from birth to obey. When mom say jump they say how high...they don't say "no."

I am amazed that you would even want to rate how awful one rape is over another. Child rape is SO bad that the law does not even make you prove force. If one has sex with a child it is considered so reprehensible that it does not matter if it is forced --or coerced.

If you want to rate the rape: I beleive that the total betrayal of the mother makes this one of the worst rapes I have heard of. Physical force? Perhaps not. Emotional / Coerced force: damn right.

[Dhalgren]

101. Rape is a crime, period. This case is obviously rape -

no doubt about it. But as a crime, any crime, one incident can be compared to another. All crimes are not equal, each instance differs from the next - it doesn't mean that one is a crime and the other isn't; just that they are not the same.

Stealing is bad and a crime. But fraud is not the same thing as armed robbery. That isn't to say that fraud is not a crime, it is only saying that there is a difference between the two.

When I was 15 years old, a 22 year old friend of my cousin and I had sex. She brought a bottle Boones Farm wine and...well, I won't elaborate. I remember that as one of the most wonderful experiences of my life. Was it rape? Yes, absolutely. Was it the same crime as someone being forcibly raped against his/her will? No, not the same thing.

I am a little surprised that so many people here, are so totally misreading my posts. I am not excusing in any way the crimes that this mother and the two men committed. I was just trying to point out the differences between what was being assumed (as far as the details, motives, and perpetration) and what was actually being reported.

[ridgerunner]

106. Well, you're starting to come around

at least you now acknowledge that this was rape and not consenual sex. We're not misreading your posts, you called it consenual sex, we disageed because giving alcohol to 13 and 14 year olds and then having sexual relations with them does not conform with society's standard of consent.

And I stand behind my claim, your logic is unbelievable.

[Dhalgren]

112. You haven't been reading my posts.

I have said from the very first post that this was rape - I haven't changed my opinion on this topic.

[NashVegas]

118. Hold It, Hold It!

I remember that as one of the most wonderful experiences of my life. Was it rape? Yes, absolutely.

Will someone pleeeeeeeasse explain to me how rape can be a wonderful experience.

Either you had a great time - in which case it was not rape in any way - or you were forced to have sex without your consent.

I am not sitting in judgement of your posts. Up until you confused a voluntary action with rape, I was right behind ya.

[Dhalgren]

120. I was simply saying that by the definition of statutory rape,

this was "rape" - I was underage, she was an adult, we consumed alcohol... I did not, personally, consider it "rape", but by definition, it was. I still see and speak with this lovely woman, once or twice a year. She is very dear to me. But, by accepted definition...And I was trying to point out that often crimes are issues of "degree" and knowing all of the facts - that's all.

[cally]

35. Thanks for pointing this out

When I read the headline, I thought it was forcible rape. It's still wrong but not quite as bad as if a mother watched her child forcibly raped and did nothing to stop it.

[intheflow]

54. I'm curious as to how the incident came to light.

I don't think we can tell if it was consensual or not from the story. The girls may have been interested in having sex or they may have just thought it was okay because they know that's what the adult guardian wanted them to do. Specifically, I'm referring to the first line, when the mother "believed it was time the teenager had sex." If it's your mom pushing hard lemonade and penises at you, you're bound to think it's what's expected of you.

So, how did this come to light? Did the parents of the other girl somehow learn their daughter was no longer a virgin? Did one of the girls go to the school nurse because she was afraid she was pregnant? Did one of the girls go to the school counselor because she understood it was rape in retrospect?

I don't think conventional definitions of consensual/forced sex apply in this case.

[WeRQ4U]

10. Wow....

Just, wow.

[eissa]

13. This breaks my heart

I know two couples that would give anything in the world to be able to have children but cannot. Both couples would have made excellent parents. It's a shame that a morally bankrupt, poor excuse for a human like this can reproduce and they can't.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[eissa]

60. Oh for God's sake

We don't know the woman or if she has ever been abused, and even if she has been it doesn't automatically give her a free pass. I was sexually molested as a child and I've never used it as an excuse to harm others.

And I really cringe at that line accusing me of being sexist. There are a lot of good people out there who would make great parents and I still believe it's a shame that some fucked-up morons are blessed with the privilege while others are left with their sorrows.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Don Claybrook]

66. Calling someone dear is sexist. You should stop. n/t

[foreigncorrespondent]

79. Sorry...

...nowhere near sexist when one woman calls another woman dear. Happens all the time in the real world.

[Don Claybrook]

80. No need to be sorry, it's ok

Lots of things happen all the time in the real world, and those things run the range from good to bad. Clearly, 'dear' isn't very high on the list of sexist terms, but it's there, in the real world, that is. Of course, in this context it was also condescending, as was 'nitwit', and I believe I made a valid point.

Thanks.

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. Actually...

...no you haven't made a valid point at all.

Yes the term dear is very condescending when a male uses it towards a female in a sarcastic fashion. But when one woman says it to another it isn't taken as being condescending.

And trust me, I should know, I happen to be a woman.

[Karmakaze]

71. Why so vicious defending this mother?

The only ugly attitudes I have seen in this thread are yours.

"Well bully fucking bully for you" as a response to "I was sexually molested as a child and I've never used it as an excuse to harm others."

Absolutely insane.

[geek tragedy]

87. Wow. Just wow.

Taunting a victim over their past abuse in defense of someone who's committed abuse.

This may be the most obscene post I've ever seen at DU.

[Karmakaze]

61. Heh

In a thread about a mother hiring a stripper for her son's 16th birthday party you were FAR more disgusted with THAT mother.

Yet in this thread where a mother basically pimps out her daughters you suddenly come up with explanations and criticism of "judgmentalism".

Strange...

[Eloriel]

62. No, I'm equally disgusted with this mother -- maybe more

but I'm pretty damned disgusted with this poster, and a little tired of typing the same basic stuff over and over. The difference in the other thread was that so few people saw anything WRONG with what that mother did. I also pointed out the same truth: THAT mother had likely been abused as a child as well.

[Karmakaze]

69. MAYBE more??? MAYBE???

This mother pimps out her daughter and her daughter's friend, both 13/14, and that is equally disgusting as hiring a stripper for a 16 year old!!!

What the hell???

[Megahurtz]

73. I think it's almost worse

because they were assaulted physically.:(
Not to say that hiring a stripper for a 16 year old is okay, because that's very violating and I think that's fucking disgusting too. How selfish of those parents.

[bloom]

116. It's exponentially worse

to have men rape your daughter and her friend at 13/14 - than to arrange a stripper to perform for 14/16 year old boys.

I condemn both - and they are oddly similar in the concept of parents wanting to initiate their children into the sexual world. What about society makes them want to do that?

[geek tragedy]

64. What is your point, exactly?

She's a sick, twisted individual and a manifestly unfit parent.

Her background doesn't change that.

And the charges of sexism are stupid. The same reasoning would apply if this woman were a man.

People like this simply shouldn't have kids. She's going to lose custody of her kids, and rightfully so.

[foo_bar]

104. tortoises all the way down?

This stuff DOES NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM. Mothers don't become predators themselves, as this one surely is, out of their own "badness." It COMES from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is ALWAYS having been victimized as a child themselves.

Was the Prime Abuser an enabling Lucy hominid? It's an interesting theory until the "ALWAYS" part. There is a correlation between victimhood and abuse, but attributing 100% causality has the whiff of anecdotal experience.

[artemisia1]

124. Good point. I was abused as a child but I would jump off a cliff

before behaving as these mothers did. Sure, a bad childhood makes adult adjustment difficult, but give me a freakin' break. This isn't rocket science, people. You DON'T let an 18 year old TOUCH your thirteen year old daughter sexually under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Rape - you bet your ***.

[Dulcinea]

21. That is sick beyond words.

WTF is wrong with people!?

[Xithras]

22. Read the article: Rape in the legal sense, not the forced sense.

Reading the title and excerpt gives the impression that this lady stood by while two men forcibly raped her daughter and friend.

Reading the full article reveals that the girls had consensual sex with these two older adult teens who they'd met earlier. Because a girl under 15 can't legally give consent, the men are being charged with rape...of the statutory variety. The mothers crime is that she stood by and allowed it to happen without intervening.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that any adult male who has sex with a 13 year old SHOULD go to jail, and that any mother who allows it to happen SHOULD be punished, but this article reads like a press release from the DA's office rather than an objective piece of journalism. It's headline grabbing of the worst variety.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. I don't buy that.

Like I say here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1515010&mesg_id=1515190

She got minors drunk for the purpose of getting someone to have sex with them. Sorry, that's as good as dropping GHB into their drinks for me, and that IS rape of the non-statutory variety.

[Xithras]

30. Good point.

Unfortunately, getting drunk and having sex is a fairly normal part of modern teen life. I guess it really depends on the time-line and intent. If they were partying, got drunk, and had sex, then I'd have to disagree with you...the sex in that situation would have been statutory rape, but consensual. If the men plied them with alcohol specifically to lower their inhibitions and get them into bed, then it would be rape in both senses of the word. Unfortunately the article doesn't go into enough detail to let us know which it was. I'd also be curious to know whether the men knew how old the girls were.

I guess my own experiences as a teen affect my judgment on this. When I was 17-18 years old, I had more than one younger teen (13-14) convince me they were older because they wanted to party. In one case (when I was 18), I was half-drunk at a party with a half-drunk 17 year old girl when we very nearly had sex (according to many legal definitions, we did). We were stopped when the girls friend barged in on us and began yelling at me...it turned out she was only 13 (trust me, nobody was more horrified than I was).

I guess this is why we have trials, to figure out what really happened. I'm not willing to "hang" anyone but the mother at this point. No matter WHAT anybody else did or was thinking, she KNEW that her 13 year old daughter was about to have sex with an adult man and failed to stop it. That's criminal IMO.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

34. The mom plied them with alcohol specifically for sex

I'm not willing to hang the men involved yet either. That's not the source of my contempt. They could've been lied to by the mother, in which case, who are they to argue with the girls' mother on how old she is? And you're absolutely right - I know other guys who've been duped by girls too on the issue of age. It DOES happen.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

88. Where in the article does it say anyone was drunk?

Aren't you jumping to conclusions? Even if the children drank, did they become drunk to the point of having no ability to resist the sex to the point that it was forcible? And the article doesn't even say the children drank alcohol at all. It says the mother went to buy beer and lemonade for the kids. It's not clear from the wording whether she bought beer for the adults and lemonade for the kids. And it's also not clear whether the kissing and fondling started before or after she came back from the store and the drinking started. I would hate to have you in the jury box as you jump to conclusions.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

102. It says HARD lemonade.

Not much on reading comprehension, are you?

Further, it doesn't have to be violently forced to be rape. Ever hear of GHB? Yeah, using roofies constitutes rape, as would getting a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD girl drunk for the purpose of getting her to have sex.

And since I'm not in the jury box, I can jump to any conclusion I like, thankyouverymuch.

[TeeYiYi]

103. This paragraph is pretty clear . . .

. . . It says that both the beer and the hard lemonade were purchased for the kids. Hard lemonade is an alcoholic beverage. Another thing — she allegedly told the men that the girls were 16. That right there suggests intent. Why would it matter how old the girls were unless they were planning to have sex?

"The mother bought beer and hard lemonade for the teenagers and did not interfere as two of the girls began making out with the men on the room's two beds, Pirro said. She allegedly told the men that the girls were 16, although 16 is still under the age of consent."

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4552667/detail.html

TYY

[marshall]

33. Who made the complaint?

Whether it was consensual at the time (with the assistance of alcohol) or forced, somebody had to file the complaint. Otherwise how would anybody know about it beyond the five of them in the room? The article doesn't say, but the only thing that makes any sense is that one of the girls told somebody about it.

[LisaL]

36. Maybe the parents of the second girl found out about it?

[cally]

37. Perhaps the friend's parents

found out and pressed charges. I wondered who went to the police also.

[K-W]

55. You are contradicting yourself.

Either the girls are too young to consent or they had consentual sex, you cant have it both ways.

[TahitiNut]

27. If they'd done this on vacation in Acapulco, it'd be legal.

Disgusting.

[sakabatou]

28. That is just awful!

[genieroze]

29. What a sick person.

[BiggJawn]

31. Bad Woman! No Medicare Cialis for YOU!

Should SHE be required to register upon conviction?
Why not? Any MAN would have to...

That's sickening. Weird fucking people in this world.

[Eloriel]

52. Yes She should.

perhaps she will -- you don't know that she won't.

[rebecca_herman]

40. OMG

WTF is WRONG with people these days?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wicket]

43. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. So much for the meaning of your boardname.

[QC]

46. Yeah, that's a fine bit of irony, isn't it? n/t

[Miss Chybil]

47. Horrific. nt

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chovexani]

70. Trust me, NY is not entirely blue

Go to Westchester (where the Wall Street types actually live), and you see nothing but Bush/Cheney stickers on the cars. North of the Bronx is Red Hell, aside from a county here and there (usually where SUNY campuses reside).

Long Island is just as bad in places. So's Staten Island, home of the Molinari crime family, as crooked a bunch of Republicans as you are apt to find anywhere...

[XemaSab]

56. Like, honestly,

What kind of sick person wants their 13-year old daughter to have their first sexual experience drunk in a motel hallway with a much older stranger?

Uh, other people's moms would KILL the guy.

[Eloriel]

57. Does anyone doubt this is child sexual abuse, whether or not

that's what she's charged with?

If you DON'T have trouble seeing it as child sexual abuse, then can you also see that this is too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3763204&mesg_id=3763204&page=

[Karmakaze]

72. Nope - I can see a VAST difference

between hiring a stripper for a 16 year old and PIMPING OUT two 13 year olds.

The fact you can't is quite astounding.

Editted to add:

The difference is the same as the difference between a slap in the face and beating someone to death with a baseball bat. Of course in your world they would be just the same, right?

[Piperay]

67. This country has become

morally bankrupt and the repukes have done nothing to clean it up.

[Megahurtz]

68. OH MY GOD...........

What a fucking psycho!!!:crazy::freak::crazy:

This woman is just as guilty as the men who raped the girls.:mad:

SICK!!!

[artemisia1]

125. More so as she had a double responsibility - to act as both an

adult and as a PARENT. The 18 year old guys only failed at one of these. Put them in jail, sure, and for some time but sterilize this woman as she defines the term UNFIT MOTHER.

[ckramer]

74. This woman should be sentenced to be a public whore

for one year.

[ValentinoM]

75. SICK, SICK, SICK

Having a baby is Birthing.. Loving and protecting a child is Mothering.. Wild animals wouldn't do this to an offspring..

[foreigncorrespondent]

76. OMG!

What a sick mother! Some people really do not deserve to have children.

I can't load the article for some reason, did the article say how the police came to know about it?

[TeeYiYi]

94. The mother of one of the girls' friends . . .

"The case was reported to Suffolk County police when the mother of one of the girls' friends heard about it, Pirro said. The county police then alerted White Plains police."

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4552667/detail.html

Try loading this article FC. It has more detail than the originally posted story.

TYY

[foreigncorrespondent]

122. Thanks, hon!

Got this one loaded.

[OKthatsIT]

78. My mom, the Pimp

she sounds like she was getting her daughter ready to do tricks for her.

[raccoon]

99. You're probably lright

I bet the mother is a drug addict.

[raccoon]

100. You're probably right, OKthatsIT,

I bet the mother is a drug addict.

[Stand and Fight]

82. Lock her ass up and throw away the key.

She's ruined any innocence for her daughter, and no amount of psycho-babble can excuse her actions. The mother who got the stripper for her son was a moron for taking pictures and having them developed. She should not be penalized. However, this person is a knave, the worst kind of criminal, and deserves the most strict punishment for her crime under the law.

[Erika]

89. There are no laws that mandate parents be parents

Men can skip completely out of the picture after impregnating women. Women can raise children in such a way this woman did. It's the kids who suffer.

[bloom]

117. It's sounds like you are saying

that what she did was legal.

It most certainly was not.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

119. There is NO excuse for this.

I don't care WHAT the father did, unless he specifically forced this action. It's totally bullshit and irresponsible to even THINK of saying this action is tolerable in any sense.

By the way, women also can skip out on the men after getting pregnant, ensuring that the father never gets to see his child. Don't think for a second that this doesn't happen too.

[fortyfeetunder]

85. the saddest part

if either or both of these kids get pregnant as a result. Kids that age can be fertile as rabbits.... Mom didn't think about that aspect?

[BlueIris]

93. This is all horrible, but "Thought it was time the daughter had sex"

is the part I'm most hung up on. Yes, I understand, there are seventeen other things the mother thought and did that are AS horrible, but I'm stuck on this reported aspect of her crime--I also understand that is a statement the D.A. made and might be partially or entirely "spin" from the D.A. (not ripping D.A.s, just making realistic allowance for their strategies) or the media. Still, that raises SO MANY troubling issues for me, with regard to both what this woman did and what prosecutors/reporters want us to think about it.

[Greylyn58]

109. This story reminds me a favorite and all too true quote

from the movie Parenthood.

Todd is talking to Mrs. Buchman after speaking to her son:

You know, Mrs. Buchman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father. or a mother for that matter.

Discussing sexual matters with your children is one thing, but to force your own daughter into a situation she may not have been physically or mentally ready for and to make that decision for another parent's child(ie--the daughter's friend) is unbelievable.

This woman sounds to me like she has issues of her own that need to be address. I mean--JEEZ--she meets two guys in a restaurant and takes them back to these two girls, not really knowing a damn thing about them.

Apart from being charged for what she did, the mom could do with a few sessions with a shrink because she has some weird ideas.

[BlueIris]

111. "A 'few' sessions"?! Try: therapy for the rest of her sorry life.

Preferably while in jail. God knows, her daughter's going to need that sort of recovery time.

[Greylyn58]

113. Agreed

and the daughter's friend.

This woman has messed up two families with this crime.

[Lerkfish]

114. on top of everything else, these guys could have been serial killers, for

all that mother knew. she just met the guys!!!!

if I were the parents of one of the other girls, there'd be hell to pay.

[Tweed]

127. Best part is......

The guy who had sex with the 13 year old was released on $75,000 dollar bail. Oh White Plains.....

[Swamp Rat]

128. ONLY up to 15 years for raping children???

I hope they don't use soap in prison! :mad:

[BlueIris]

130. Does that surprise you?

Then you probably don't want to know how little time the average sex offender is actually sentenced to and serves nowadays.

[Pert_UK]

129. Just when you thought that people couldn't BE any more fucked up...

:mad:

The world does my head in again.

So many ruined lives.