Evangelicals divided over evolution

[RedEarth]

PHILADELPHIA - (KRT) - Can God and evolution coexist?

For many evangelical Christians, the debate over teaching evolution in public schools touches a vital spiritual nerve. Some see evolution as a path to perdition, while others see it as a crowning example of God's handiwork.

A legal battle in Dover, Pa., over the teaching of evolution and "intelligent design" has focused new attention on the issue, as have recent proposals in Kansas to change how evolution is taught there.

For David Wilcox, a biology professor at Eastern University, an evangelical college in St. Davids, the challenge is to teach students that it's possible to embrace evolution "without intellectual schizophrenia." "Frequently, they've been taught that evolution is another way of saying atheism, and they just shut it out," said Wilcox, author of "God and Evolution: A Faith-Based Understanding." "They say, 'Why do I have to learn this stuff - don't you know that God hates science?' "

"We have to make them wake up and smell the coffee. God doesn't hate science - he invented it. We try to get them to see that evolution happened and it's not so scary ... that evolution is the way God did it."

"Evolutionary theists" such as Wilcox are part of a broader effort by the scientific establishment to defend evolution against advocates of creationism, "intelligent design," and other concepts that challenge all or parts of the theory of natural selection. Evangelical Christians, sometimes portrayed as monolithic in their opposition to evolution, are as divided as much of the rest of the nation.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11787220.htm

[stellanoir]

1. these simplistic people don't even know the frigging difference

between poetry and science.

they drive me completely bananas.

[RPM]

20. fuck it - drive this wedge anyway! n/t

[nemo137]

2. Thank you, Mr. Wilcox!

I've been saying that for years, but no one seems to care.

[TahitiNut]

3. For some of these people, evolution is the only hope for their children.

:eyes:

[daleo]

4. Most churches managed this trick 50-150 years ago.

I am referring to the majority of mainstream Protestant churches and the majority of members of the Roman Catholic Church. The Victorians did a better job of reconciling science and religion than a substantial proportion of modern Americans do (this is primarily an American phenomenon).

I have read that many (most?) Muslims have reconciled their scripture with evolution, Sunni more so than Shiite. I don't know how the numbers work on that, though.

[slackmaster]

6. My 4th grade Sunday School teacher handled it just fine

She assured us that the apparent conflict between modern science and the Genesis account of creation was not a problem because Genesis was to be taken as allegory.

She spent the next 40 minutes trying to explain the concept of allegory to a bunch of 8- and 9-year olds.

:D

That was in a mainstream Presbyterian church BTW.

[Charles19]

10. I agree

As a former Roman Catholic and now a Muslim this is what I observe as well.

As far as reconcile it is more like teaching they are not mutually exclusive. Especially in Islam it states repeatedly God is the creator of all that exists and doesn't talk about any "poofing" of people. Like all of God's prophets none of them "poofed" into creation they all came down the line from Adam. So a hereditary concept isn't anything different from what they teach already.

The problem is with those who use the term "evolution" like they have a resounding truth of the universe, that it is a universal law like say the standard model of quantum mechanics. It is hardly a mathematical proof it is simply an observation of how species interect with each other and their environment.

[megatherium]

37. You'd be surprised out how mathematical evolutionary theory is now.

Grab a copy of J. Roughgarden's text on population genetics, and you'll see. Evolution became very mathematical in the 1920s and 1930s as part of an effort to reconcile the laws of genetics (unknown to Darwin) with evolution. The result was "the grand synthesis" or neo-Darwinism.

[yorkiemommie1]

11. grew up catholic --- never had a problem

reconciled both issues just fine.

[VegasWolf]

17. grew up catholic in 60's -- church had major problems with evolution n/t

[HockeyMom]

29. Told us in Catholic School in 60s

God caused Evolution. lol They took the easy way out.

[VegasWolf]

30. Hah! They told us evolution wasn't true. n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. "don't you know that God hates science"

Yes, that was the 11 commandment I think.

[geek tragedy]

16. "Thou shalt not think." eom

[struggle4progress]

27. It's really not about "religion." It's about power. eom

[jazzjunkysue]

28. "Nor eat of the fruit of knowledge. "

[jobycom]

7. I care as much as I would listening to voodoo doctors discussing

the most beneficial way to slice off a chicken's head.

Someone else's religion. Keep it all out of my government.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Fine.

If they believe that god hates science and that evolution is another way of saying atheism, let them flunk.
Would you want a doctor that doesn't "believe" in evolution to practice medicine?

[XemaSab]

12. or one better,

a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution to screen you and your spouse for hereditary defects that could be passed on to your children.

[beam me up scottie]

18. I got into it with the first GP I went to when

I moved here. The man was one of the worst homophobes I have ever met.
I couldn't believe this ignorant hemorrhoid in a lab coat had a license to practice medicine.
When I expressed my disgust he asked if I was a lesbian, as if only gay people would take up for gays.
He was surprised I was so angry.
Revolting.

[XemaSab]

23. Dontcha know

All strong women willing to stick up for oppressed minority populations are lesbians. Didn't you get the memo? Or the toaster, for that matter?

[beam me up scottie]

24. Damn!

Must of missed that meeting. Was it like the rubber chicken I got for being an atheist?

[Zhade]

34. Hey, BMUS, have I told you today that...

:yourock:

[beam me up scottie]

40. No but thanks! nt

[Ikonoklast]

9. Look, you ninnies,

This is God. If you don't stop arguing over this stupid evolution nonsense I am going to wipe you jerks out with an asteroid and start over with the cockroaches; at least I won't hear any crap from them for a few million years until they evolve into Republicans.

[gratuitous]

14. Nonsense, God!

Cockroaches are a lot closer to Republicans than you think, O Omniscient One!

[Ikonoklast]

15. No, you got it wrong

I am really p.o.'d at the cockroaches and evolving them into Republicans is their punishment. You should see what I have in store for neo-con traitors; very Biblical and Old Testament. I'm thinking about making a terminal itching disease that takes thirty years to run its' course and will have no cure. It's about time the God of Wrath teaches these suckers a lesson. I have spoken.

[gratuitous]

25. Sh-boom!

Go get 'em, O Wrathful Deity!

As long as "I" am not one of "them," if you know what I mean.

[Zhade]

35. Uh, damn, welcome to DU.

You're going to fit in great!

[WeRQ4U]

13. I took evolution as part of my undergrad Biology BS

The first question on every test was something like:

"Evolution happened and if you don't believe that it did you are: a) Stupid or b) Stupid."

Granted, the professor was an egotistical jackass, but people got the point.

[VegasWolf]

19. really wish the snake kissers and floor rollers stayed out of science

classes.

[Ian David]

21. Evangelical theology is descending with modification over time

Dumb Dumb Dorothy
By Brenda Sutton
© 2000

I've clicked my heels so many times. I was a fool to grieve
For Flatland and the monochromes I now desire to leave
I want my eyes to match my gown, to float the bubble tram
And be where I know simply who I am

Summon all the Gods of Air and let the wild wind howl
I'll pitch my porch to the gray-green sky and ply the witch's trowel
Put Kansas to my backside, and bid a swift farewell
To the dust and the hogs and the prairie corn sage smell

Chorus:
I want to go where nothing's as it seems
I want to sing and fight and laugh and dream
I want my answers to be "Just because
That's the way in the merry old land of OZ."

<snip>

So hand me down my ruby shoes. Oh, Glenda hear my cry!
I know I begged for sepia tone but now I don't know why
I've learned the grass IS greener on the far side of the moon
Oh, if I have my way I'll be up to green real soon...
If I have my way I'll be covered in green real soon..

More:
http://www.threeweirdsisters.com/lyrics_dumbdorothy.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

22. We're "Cafeteria Progressives"

Jewish Holidays at Beyt Tikkun, otherwise we feel at home at both Beyt Tikkun and our neighborhood Unitarian Universalist Church. Never had a problem reconciling a Divine Presence with Evolution and the symbolic allegory of Creation.

[Strawman]

26. Are they also up in the air over gravity? n/t

[VegasWolf]

31. Heard that they are pushing Intelligent Gravity and Intelligent Radio. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

32. There is no such thing as "gravity" and I can prove it

Think about this, just for a second, will you? You don't need "gravity" if the world sucks.

[daleo]

33. Gravity is for chumps.

It's faith what keeps you stuck to the earth. Why many's the time I've seen apostates going flying off into outer space...

[C_U_L8R]

36. How do they explain all the evidence?

I'm really curious how the religious reich explains away all the physical evidence for evolution. Some seem to deny that evolution exists... and others irrationally attribute it to God's will. But forget about animals for a second and look just at humans. What possible fantastic god-myth is there for the long chain of human evolution? Where on this chain is Adam? Was Adam a cro-magnon? If not, then Adam may not have been here at the beginning. The lapses in logic and common sense in the religious reich seem astounding.
I just don't understand how they can delude themselves so thoroughly. There is a big difference between spiritual belief and total gullibility.

Speaking of paradox... can someone please explain who the heck Cain had sex with?

[megatherium]

39. You can wander into a typical evangelical Christian book store,

and peruse the anti-evolution books for yourself, and see. It's pretty laughable. One book I saw claimed the reason we can see galaxies that are millions of light years away (even though the universe is only thousands of years old) is that light used to go faster and it has slowed down. The writer (an MIT PhD engineer named Walter Brown) had a plot showing the speed of light going back into time. Apparently, the earliest measurements of the speed of light two or three hundred years ago had light going several percent faster than the modern value. So this jackass extrapolates a curve zooming upwards to the left of these three or four data points. Young-earth creationist books are filled with this kind of ad hoc nonsense; jury-rigged explanations for every hole or inconsistency in their theories. Few young-earthers have credentials in geology or biology; they tend to be doctors of education or the like, if they do have credentials at all.

But evangelical bookstores also nowadays carry a variety of "Intelligent Design" books. These are still bad science, but at least the ID people acknowledge deep geological time and descent with modification. They spend their energy arguing that "random chance" (variation and natural selection) cannot be the source of complexity in life.

All of this is entirely unnecessary, even from an evangelical point of view. There are now good titles by evangelical authors with serious scientific credentials, defending the science of evolution and explaining why it's compatible with Christian theology and a sound understanding of the Bible.

[RaRa]

38. I'd like to ask the fundies

how they can take today's Bible literally, knowing it has been translated a bunch of times by different people at different stages in history. God, even the term virgin didn't have a sexual connotation back then. Look at the word "gay" and how its meaning has changed in less then 100 years. Are we supposed to believe that the translations are 100% exactly what they were originally? Oh, I forgot, this would all require rational reasoning; something they are incapable of as they stick their fingers in their ears and scream "nah nah nah, I can't hear you!"

[Roaming]

42. You can check ancient manuscripts (from Greek and Hebrew)

which have been dug up, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and they prove that the Bible's translations hold up over time as the original ancient manuscripts match almost perfectly with more modern ones. However, there are many different TRANSLATIONS of the Bible, and sometimes they may disagree on the exact meaning of a passage. There are some passages in the King James Version, for instance, that, when you try to read them from the standpoint of modern English, just don't make sense.

That's why it's helpful, whenever there is a question as to what's in a modern Bible translation, to be able to go back to those original manuscripts.

[Roaming]

41. I don't think it's impossible to be a Christian and still say there

is some evidence to support evolution. My problem lies with the concept of "ultimate origins" -- as a believer of God's Word, I do not believe that creation came out of "chance" or "nothingness" or some "primordial slime" but that God created it all, including humans in His own image. I believe, though, that there is room to argue the methods by which God caused creation to come into existence, or at least caused creation to change and adapt over time.

On the other hand, it's also possible (being that God is omnipotent) that He COULD have created the earth in six days, had He WANTED to.

I guess nobody will ever know for SURE until we get to ask Him ourselves. :-)

[Endangered Specie]

43. One of the nice things about science is it doesnt matter what they think

[pissed_American]

44. maybe God IS science ...

"God" does work in mysterious ways.....

The Bible never says how long one of the six days was.(each day could have been millions of years.)

The Bible was written BY man, FOR man. Things were explained in a way that was relevant at that time. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Mostly ALL religion is based on fear! - Do "this", or something bad will happen to you & don`t do "that", or something bad will happen to you. Fear and Pain are great motivators ! And, great ways to keep the masses in check.

If "God" is a Him, why do we call it Mother Nature ??!!

Who was Cain`s wife? Cain`s Wife - Great name for a band or female solo artist, btw

I asked my mother, who seems to be very religious now, if she thought Adam and Eve were white ? She said "Yes". And she isn`t even from the South ! I love my mother very much, but that scared me !!

Are we to believe in Magic, so to speak?? When there is scientific proof for most ALL things, we are supposed to believe that "POOF" man was created ? How does one explain the discovery of bones that are much older than the Bible`s tales?

And finally - Who were "God`s" parents?

P.S. - I don`t believe in the Devil either.

I`m agnostic if you haven`t figured it out yet.