U.S. proposal to check Canadian flight lists draws fire from Ottawa

[CHIMO]

U.S. proposal to check Canadian flight lists draws fire from Ottawa
Last Updated Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:09:45 EDT

Transport Minister Jean Lapierre says Canadians shouldn't have to be checked against a U.S. list when taking a domestic flight.

But a new American proposal attempts to go one step further by demanding that any flight passing through U.S. airspace, even if it doesn't land, must first submit its passengers' names, citizenship, birthdays, and possibly their addresses and credit card details.

Many flights, for example Montreal to Halifax, or Toronto to Calgary, cross U.S. airspace to save time and fuel.

While the rule is only a proposal it has already been put into practice.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/01/flights050601.html

Big brother on the march.

[bluedeminredstate]

1. Credit card files????

I'm truly speechless. God help us.

[CHIMO]

2. Probably

Because anyone that has a credit card has all the purchases recorded on a big brother machine. At the min all North American credit card approvals are processed through the US.

But it also asks for citizenship and birthday.

[Robbien]

3. Any one who does not pay for their ticket with a credit card

automatically goes on the US suspect list. One of Homeland Security guidelines.

Of course you have to trust the government when it says it is only checking to make sure you paid by credit and not use the credit card number to track your movements.

[CHIMO]

4. Well

What about tickets purchased under a purchase order?

[Robbien]

5. A company's purchase order?

That's okay, but a money order is not. A company's purchase order has a way to trace back to you so you are not placed on the suspect list.

[CHIMO]

7. It Can

Be a numbered company that has only been in existence for a few months under a provincial regulation or it might even be an Incorporated partnership etc..

I have a simple solution to this red tape. The government of Canada only permits the flights to depart when the carrier has confirmed approval that the flight will not be interrupted. Pretty soon having the passengers arrive three hours before a flight would have the flights staying in Canadian air space.

A reciprocal requirement would be that the Canadian government require similar such information for flights over its airspace. A lot of west coast flights go over Canada when going to Europe.

In addition flights from Europe use Gander Newfoundland as a ground station. This could be bargained for requiring the information to accept the flight coming towards their air space. It just seems to me that the only way to beat red tape is fight back with red tape.

[Robbien]

13. That is why Homeland security rules are silly

and just get in the way of regular passengers. There are many ways of getting around Homeland Security rules if one is motivated.

A reciprocal agreement would be the right thing to do, but no country or sect is really angry at Canada. Would it be worth the bother?

[CHIMO]

14. It Is

Worth it to Canadians. Of course I would not presume to speak for those Harper Conservative Canadians.

I beg to differ with you on one point. The Bush sect seems quite angry. And it is quite noticeable.

[getmeouttahere]

6. This is bullsh**! But can someone explain....

why a flight from Toronto to Calgary has to pass through US airspace to save time and fuel? If nothing else, you would think the Canadians would want to avoid the hassle!

[CHIMO]

8. Shortest Distance

Although Toronto is in Canada it is South of Lake Suoerior, a little more south than half of Lake Michigan and almost south of lake Huron. The airlines want to use the shortest route.

You are right. A flight does not have to pass into US airspace but it saves fuel.

Well I think that Canadians having to take their passport for a flight within Canada will help makeup the governments decision.

[MrPrax]

15. That's New...

Canadians have to have a passport to fly within their own country?

Also new is testimony in the Arar inquiry that the US would have released Arar IF we agree to prosecute him and find him guilty?

Good to see long held notions of citizenship, sovereignty and due process now compete equally with 'keeping Americans feeling safe'.

I'll pop over to GD and one of the many threads as to why everyone hates Americans--even if they good democrats. ;-)

[Lisa]

19. bugger that! Our passports are only good for 5 years ...

Mine has expired -- it's one thing to go through the paperwork if I'm going to some exotic destination, but to fly inside my own country?

[MrPrax]

20. No kidding...

Part I hate with the passports...

a) 70 bucks to get one (oh and on top of the airport fees and all that crap--better stop or I'll sound like a Tory ;-)

b) lining up the guarantors which can be a hassle if you think about it about the list of acceptable candidates (doctors? if you use a walk-in?, clergy? minister? if you don't go to church, superintendent? huh? your accountant? um...a lawyer...um...ok, professor, but if you don't go to university...)

Essentially all those professionals are in a better position to to look at your personal ID

c) the wait...forever?

Bad deal all round and since the govt of Canada has made few innovations in service delivery in the last half century, we can expect more 'creeping' absorption

[Lisa]

23. I work at a university, so I can corner some profs ...

In fact, I've even been hit up to be a reference myself -- in both cases I said no, because I felt that I might be a liability to the student (all that RCMP surveillance during peace demonstrations), and in any case after a single summer course I couldn't claim to know either of them were who they said they were. (Now I sound like a xenophobic Alliance type!) But as you say, it would have involved snooping into their student records, and I didn't feel comfortable essentially being asked to do a security check on someone. I'm not even a proper faculty member, and don't have a contract, so my "professor" status was highly in doubt.

[tuvor]

9. Check a map.

Toronto to Vancouver, for example. As the crow flies, you pass over Michigan, Wisconson, Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana, Idaho and Washington State.

[getmeouttahere]

10. Right...as the crow flies....but since when...

do airlines always fly as the crow flies? Maybe not the best example, but I once flew from London back to L.A. taking the "polar route" which if I recall correctly, passes over Greenland and northern ontario, among other places

[CHIMO]

11. A Smart Crow

To understand the shortest distance on a sphere take a piece of string and place it over a globe between the two points that one is flying between. It will approximate the shortest distance.

[tuvor]

16. I'm sure the reason was economics.

Sure couldn't have been for the sightseeing or the climate.

[sasquatch]

12. Ottawa!?!? HAHA!! Everybody know's the capital of Canada is Toronto

Boy those Canadians are sooooo sneaky!
:+ :silly: :sarcasm:

[Newsjock]

17. TOP STORY on CBC's 'The National' tonight

And the anchor began by saying: "A tough response today from Ottawa to a proposal that could put YOUR personal information in the hands of the United States." (Read between the lines in that sentence, and notice how "the United States" has now become so sinister.)

Even the Conservatives they quoted were strongly opposed to it.

Video available online after 11:30 p.m. EDT at http://www.cbc.ca/national

[Bozita]

18. Thanks, I was wondering where it would play

[ngGale]

21. Why do we give Canada such a hard time while...

leaving out southern borders wide open?

[Nihil]

22. Maybe ...

... Canadians are crap gardeners? Can't cook tacos? Don't end up
supporting some law-maker's industry by working for barely subsistence
wages?

:shrug: