Saudis Outraged Over Women-Drive Proposal

[KaliTracy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_women_behind_the_wheel

By DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 37 minutes ago


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - He just wanted his colleagues in the government's legislative arm to discuss the possibility of conducting a study into the feasibility of reversing the ban on women drivers — the only prohibition of its kind in the world.

But Consultative Council member Mohammad al-Zulfa's proposal has unleashed a storm in this conservative country where the subject of women drivers remains taboo.

Al-Zulfa's cell phone now constantly rings with furious Saudis accusing him of encouraging women to commit the double sins of discarding their veils and mixing with men. He gets phone text messages calling on Allah to freeze his blood. Chat rooms bristle with insulting accusations that al-Zulfa is "driven by carnal instincts with 454 horsepower."

There even have been calls to kick al-Zulfa from the council and strip him of his Saudi nationality.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

1. does anyone know the "reasoning" behind the prohibition?

just curious, thanks.

[thebigidea]

3. I believe its based on a standup comedy routine circa 1957

[KaliTracy]

5. The article gets into the meat of it -- they would be tempted too much

would have to show their eyes, would have to speak to other men...

[Ripley]

8. Are you kidding?

You really don't understand misogyny? Not being able to drive themselves anywhere makes these women totally dependent upon men for any mobility in life, in much the same way children are dependent on adults. The Saudi men crush the independence out of females by these types of bans.

Their sick twisted paranoid delusions that these women would have sex with men in the streets if they were allowed to drive to the store is quite telling about their own mental problems.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

15. no i am not kidding

i am interested in what sources/reasoning they use to back up their beliefs.

i don't think they just decided to be misogenistic, they must base this belief/law on some type of "reasoning" (the word is used loosely here). I would like to know how they argue this position and what they use to back up their argument.

[Ripley]

19. Well, they haven't chained them.

Which part about exposing one's face in order to operate a vehicle don't you understand?

They believe women are property. They don't want other men looking at their property. They don't trust women. They don't trust other men.

They back up their argument with some ancient gobbledy goop.

What do you think the source/reasoning was for American men to deny American females the right to vote? Attend college? Own property?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

22. geez, i am not trying to start a flame war............

the condescension is a bit much.

if you don't know they line of reasoning they use to legitimize this treatment of women.....then don't respond.

i don't know how they can argue these ideas, so i am genuinely curious as to what methodology they use to reinforce such ridiculous and unfounded beliefs. i am on your side here. i just want to understand how they can believe these things.

[olddad56]

51. not a bright question

I would imagine the women and men living in Saudi Arabia are at least as susceptible to bing 'conditioned' as the people in this country who voted for fascism are. It isn't rocket science, people can be brainwashed simply by hearing the same lie over and over. We have known that since the days of Hitler and his 'Big Lie' theory of mental conditioning.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

61. thanks for that..................

"not a bright question"

what is the answer then? you must be missing what i am trying to get at.

i don't understand why i am such a fool for wanting to understand the methodology that allows this conditioning to occur. to simply say "oh they are brainwashed" doesn't cut it. there are specifics here and that is what i am curious about. If you have no answers to my questions then don't reply.

my question in your context would be "what is the big lie and how is it perpetuated?"

[VegasWolf]

52. Good question. I think no good answer. The only place in the entire

world where this is true. What makes these guys the absolute
bottom of the bell shaped curve except for their friendliness
to the bush administration?

[Scairp]

45. It's all about power

And the fear that the men of that culture has of women gaining any kind of power in general. If women can do things like drive, or travel without written permission from their closest male relative, it would make the men feel somewhat impotent. They are violently opposed to letting up on the severe restrictions on women.

[zanne]

43. Exactly.

They lack self-control, so they blame it on the women who "tempt' them.

[Colorado Blue]

20. This is one of the most repressive places in the world, with

regard to women.

They cannot go out of the house without male permission - even if the male is a CHILD. I believe male accompaniment is also a requirement.

After puberty, black veiling must be worn, covering even the eyes, all the way to the shoe tops. A man can have as many as four wives although some Saudis have many more.

And of course, the driving. There was a demonstration a few years ago, in which many well-educated Saudi women, inspired by the women in Kuwait, took to the roads and DROVE. They were punished, many lost their jobs, and that was that.

I don't know if this can be called "reasoning." It is TRADITION, all wrapped up with an old desert culture combined with an extreme variation of Islam.

Part of it has to do, surely, with the need to protect women in a ferocious and difficult part of the world. A man with multiple wives can support and protect many women, who might otherwise be SOL - although I believe that Mohammed's first wife was an independent and prosperous trader. Maybe the city cultures, as they are even now, were different from the desert.

Part of it has to do with the two ideas: honor and purity. Honor is the honor of family and tribe, and is manifested via the behavior of the women. Purity - asyl - applies to the bloodlines. Domination of the women assures the men whose kid is whose, I presume. So presumably women driving might mean women who can travel independently, expose their eyes and thus, come into contact with Strange Men. This could impact the family/tribal honor AND, by extension, the purity of the bloodlines(?) I guess the idea of women meeting strange men and being FRIENDS isn't a reasonable concept but what do I know. In a culture where women are completely enshrouded sexuality must carry a potent and mysterious perfume.

Much of the anger of Bin Ladin was inspired by the presence of US forces, including women soldiers, on sacred Saudi soil during Gulf War I. The book by Craig Unger, "House of Bush, House of Saud," talks about this. It was cited in Farenheit 9/11.

You can google "Wahabi" to find out more about this particular brand of Islam. It's very medieval. Fatwas have been taken out against women driving, telephones and until recently, anybody who proclaimed that the world isn't a flat disk. This was only reversed when the clerics were assured by a Saudi, who'd seen our planet from the space shuttle, that the planet is, indeed, round.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

23. thanks for the reply

i was just wondering how much of this is based on religion/religious texts versus it being just a cultural thing.

for example i was looking for maybe something like: their religious text says X about women and driving somehow violates/opposes X, therefore women driving is intolerable.

i guess it is a more complex issue than that.

thank you for your response, i appreciate it.
now i need to re-read it :)

[dArKeR]

26. But we've been stealing their country's weatlth long before Gulf I!

[Colorado Blue]

50. Well - "stealing" - I don't think so. They're getting paid BIG

BUCKS for oil, and are acquiring large chunks of American property and are of course invested heavily world wide.

If their leaders are MANAGING their wealth properly, I don't know. There are SCADS of princes and they are all making big bucks but I think there's a gap between the very rich and the very poor. "House of Bush, House of Saud" talks about this but I'm sure there are texts more to the point.

The real key, down the line, is the same for Saudi Arabia as for any other Middle Eastern state: a sustainable economy, based on their own creativity rather than extraction industries or pastoralism, must be created. The old ways of the shepherd, the nomad or the marginal farmer just won't sustain the population growth. So this really isn't optional.

This is difficult in a region which really isn't "modern" and in the case of some of its residents, doesn't WANT to be modern. A big part of the clash between "West" and "East" involves that I think. Western culture is so different than Arabian culture! Of course many Arabs travel and behave very differently in Europe or America, I'm sure! And the young are often educated abroad. So in time maybe we can learn from each other. Meanwhile there are a lot of simple misunderstandings that could be handled rationally if we could just TALK to each other. Also, people will invest if the region ever stops being a war zone. The recent conference in Jordan was very productive and dealt with economic issues as well as issues involving government reforms, etc.

As far as the Bin Ladin thing, he was a warrior in Afghanistan, whom we supported against the Soviets. He apparently is very religious and was radicalized AGAINST America by Gulf War I. I'm sure the sight of bombs dropping on Baghdad didn't help either - it must have felt like a total betrayal - a former ally now behaving exactly like the Soviets had in Afghanistan. Of course Saddam himself had been an ally of sorts, against Iran (which we also armed).

Did you see that on TV? It was HORRIBLE, those night bombings, with all the tracers, the anti-aircraft fire and the bombs exploding. I couldn't believe it. On the other hand, Vietnam was far worse and went on for years and years, with far less of a rationale. At least Gulf War I had a discernable purpose - defending the Kuwaitis and the Saudis.

Still, I don't understand us sometimes.

[Mizmoon]

62. Here's the truth and it ain't pretty

I was told that Muslim women are lucky because the men in the family are required to take care of them. That's right, they claim the cage is guilded and therefore women should shut up and enjoy their childlike status.

Of course, none of those men would ever want to live the life they seek to impose on their "lucky" women.

The "no driving" thing is supposedly an interpretation of the hadith. The hadith are the collected reputed sayings of muhammed. They are used for guidance, but the koran is the ultimate islamic resource. Honest Islamic scholars point out that there is no hadith that specifically outlaws driving and that it's really cultural, not islamic.

I learned much, much more ... ugh, I wish I could unknow it. It's hard to know that by accident of birth I too could be under the thumb of those sexist monsters ...

[SheepyMcSheepster]

65. thanks very much

this is the first i have heard of hadith.
is there a specific one that is cited when discussing women and driving?

thanks again.

[Mizmoon]

66. No, I don't know which one gets cited

as the relavant one. I don't really know them at all and it's all written in Arabic anyway.

[BikeWriter]

2. * buddies aren't real tolerant about women's rights, huh?

[thebigidea]

4. you won't hear Laura Bush say shit about this, eh?

[Ripley]

11. Exactamundo.

Noticed Stepford wife didn't give her Pro-woman speech in SA on her whirlwind tour of the Middle East.

And these assholes prance through the tulips holding hands with her husband. :puke:

[BikeWriter]

12. Evil DMV officers forced her to kill and she's too zonked out to care.

[Supersedeas]

67. let Daddy Dub kissy-kissy huggy-huggy with the hands that slap

her sisters in S.A.

Oil is thicker than human blood and human rights.

[genieroze]

6. Women can't drive and wear a veil? How are they mixing with men,

fender benders?
:wtf:

Oh, I bet the fundie freepers would like this one. Keep em barefoot and pregnant. Can't drive barefoot in most states.

[pinkpops]

7. Sounds like a nice opportunity for Karen and Pickles

to go and reason with them. I mean, how do they get their kids to soccer practice?

[tsuki]

9. I remember reading in the press about 20 years ago that the

ban was only for the cities, which the Saudi House controls absolutely. The Bedouins have different ideas, and their women drive vehicles like the water trucks. I have never seen anything about this since. Is is still true?

I know that the Bedouins are a thorn in the House of Sa'ad's side. They have never fully accepted the rule of the House of Sa'ad since the 1930s when Britian jumped up the exiled Kuwait Emir and made him King of the Arabs.

[happyslug]

25. Prob ally true,

But given that the Majority of people in Arabia today live in the City, it is the Cities that determine the future of Arabia.

Even Mohammad was more liberal with women than the Modern House of Saud. Now when studying reformer in history remember the famous pray "God, please give me the Courage to change the things I can, the Strength to endure the things I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference".

Most of the Anti-women activity of modern Saudi Arabia comes from the ancient Arab past (Or in the case of Afghanistan the ancient central Asia past) NOT from Islam. Now some anti-women things did creep into Mohammad's teachings, but they reflect his own time period and something that he did not think could be changed. At the same time he taught his daughter to read and write (His wife had taught him). His youngest wife (who he married when she was six) also could read and write (which implies HE taught her). She is considered one of the Sources of interpretation if Islam under the Sunni Branch of Islam (the the Shiite Branch is based descendant from Mohammad's Daughter who married Ali, the Fourth Caliph).

Mohammad even changed the Arab definition of Adultery, in that he required four witnesses to the act when previously it only required one. The case involved Mohammad's youngest wife had been left behind on a move and than transported by someone who found her back to his camp, technically that was "adultery" in that she was of age with another man not her relative or husband. Mohammad rather than execute her for her "crime" demanded you needed four witnesses and since he only had three she was found not guilty of the crime. Side note, this is considered by many scholars the start of the split between the Sunni and Shiites. When Mohammad asked his son-in-law what to do, Ali advised him to follow tradition, Mohammad broke tradition in this case. This made Mohammad's youngest wife and Ali better enemies for the rest of their lives (Through she seems to have forgiven him by the time of his and her death, but only after leading a revolt against Ali that he put down but than he spared her life afterward).

Anyway, the Wahabbi (Spelling?) that rule Arabia today are real radicals and believe women should be kept in their place. While other sections of Islam says driving a car is no more than driving a horse or Camel (Which all of Mohammad's wives did) the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia says otherwise.

[tsuki]

57. Thank you. This is what I understand from what I have read,

but I also have read that the Bedouin does not accept the "rule" of the House of Sa'ad. That an uneasy peace exists between the two groups. Is this fact or western fiction?

Does the House of Sa'ad fear the Bedouin?

[happyslug]

58. Yes and No

First the biggest problem for the House of Saud is the DROP OF INCOME ON A PER CAPITA BASIS since the early 1970s. While the price of oil went up in the 1970s, the price declined in the 1980s (In real terms, inflation under Reagan/Bush was a steady 6% per year which lead to an almost doubling of prices between 1980 and 1992).

The price of oil did NOT recover in the 1990 (In fact declined even further after the 1997 economic meltdown in the Far east). Over the same time period the population of Arabia almost tripled.

Let me quote from a paper I found on line:
"In the Gulf, .... relatively stable levels of oil production and flat oil revenues, combined with an unanticipated rapid increase in population, have resulted in declining per capita income in Saudi Arabia. At the height of the oil boom in 1980s the kingdom's per capita income was around $17,000. By 2003 this figure had declined to about $8,200, lagging far behind most of the other Gulf oil producers.<5> This decline is even more pronounced if corrected for inflation and the decline in the dollar exchange rate."
From: http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/2004/mar/looneyMar04.asp

This is the BIG problem in Saudi Arabia, between the jump in population AND decline in Oil Revenue, you had a drop in the standard of living in Saudi Arabia. This is complicated by the increasing size of the House of Saud and their increase expenditures (all of this not reported but visible to anyone seeing how the various members of the House of Saud live).

Now the recent increase in the price of Oil has helped out the Saudis, but that is only a recent development. Not enough time for them to buy off their people. Furthermore the cost to produce Saudi Oil in the 1970s were the lowest int he world (I read estimates as low as $3 a barrel when it was selling for $20). Today, the Saudi have to spend more money to get their oil out. Some people are estimating the cost to produce out of some of their newer wells is equaling $20-30 a barrel (The newer wells are very heavy oil which require a lot of energy and effort to move from the ground to the well head). As to the older wells, these are drying up and the Saudi have apparently implemented "Tertiary" recover methods.

Oil recovery can be said to fall into three classes, primary, which is basically drilling a well and watch the earth pump the oil out of the well head. It may include using a pump to pump out the oil once it stops flowing but as a whole cheap.

Secondary recovery methods are as old as the oil industry itself. As the first wells went dry, some smart operators realized that oil floats on top of water, so they would buy all the oil rights to a field and than used the pumps to pump WATER into the ground. The water forced the oil to the remaining pumps to be pumped out of the ground. Simple technology, but effective technology.

Tertiary recover methods are much more complex (and expensive). Example of this is pumping STEAM into the oil field so that the Steam loosen the oil from the surrounding earth and force it to the pump. I have seen ads on TV about oil companies bragging about their horizontal wells. These are another tertiary technique, by drilling horizontally you can recover more oil from a field. There are other techniques, but as you can see all are expensive AND ALL HAVE BEEN USED IN SAUDI ARABIA SINCE THE MID 1990s.

Thus you see a triple problem facing the Saudis, an increase in the number of youth (who need jobs), an DECREASE in oil Revenue, an increase in the cost to produce their oil AND increase cost to run the increasing size of the Royal House of Saud extensive family. It was this combination of problems that Bin Laden used to recruit his followers (and there is steady evidence that various people close to the House of Saud continue to fund him for they believe he is the best chance to get rid of the House of Saud and its Corruption).

Saudi Arabia's population in 1990(14.8 Million): http://www.photius.com/countries/saudi_arabia/society/saudi_arabia_society_population.html
Saudi Arabia's population in 2004 (26.4 Million):
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sa.html

Here is a term paper (for sale) on Arabia:
http://www.termpapergenie.com/SAUDIARABIA.html

Some more background information on Saudi Arabia:
http://www.mideastreview.com/saudi_arabia_country_information.htm

[KaliTracy]

10. The Daily Show's Guest this week (Tuesday?) plugged the fact

that Saudi women are the most repressed... can't remember his name -- quick search didn't turn up a guest list for Stewart -- it was about the White House and Saudi connection to 9/11 (Several Crown Princes have died after a person connected with 9/11 named them).

[freedom_to_read]

13. Gerald Posner was his name

eom

[obnoxiousdrunk]

14. I think it was Craig Posner.

[WeRQ4U]

16. Whatever the guy's name was....

He had his shit together. Sounds like a VERY interesting bit of reading. I might have to look for that one. I'm currently mired in a historical text about the Knights Templar and I'm going insane.

[bpilgrim]

17. "conservative country where the subject of women drivers remains taboo."

no SHIT, because it is INDEFENSIBLE :crazy:

this is the same direction our conservative crazies at the helm are steering America :argh:

peace

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. Those women are in more need of freedom than any Iraqi ever was

So, when is * going to liberate them? :sarcasm:

[Zorra]

21. Too bad Bu*h didn't lie about WMD in Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq.

Saudi Arabia sucks. They totally oppress women.

So I guess it is no wonder that Commander Cuckoobananas kisses Saudi princes and royalty in public. Misogyny is so very conservative, so republican.

And I mean, after all, supposedly it was the Saudi's that attacked us, right?

[bunkerbuster1]

27. And their oil reserves are more than that of Iran and Iraq combined.

Long as they're friendly to us, we won't say boo.

[funflower]

24. Who on earth would want Saudi citizenship anyway?

Unless they're a member of the royal family and they get a piece of the oil $$$$.

[Politicub]

28. It's like the fundy right was hired to write the reason for the ban

There are striking parallels in the rhetoric with the Saudi's ban on women drivers and gay marriage.

For example --
Gasp! If women can drive, they may leave their husbands and marry animals walking in the streets! Heck, it could even cause incestous affairs if a woman happens to wreck her car into her sisters car! They will almost be kissing! What about the children?!?! Won't someone please think of the children?!?!

:sarcasm:

[AndreaCG]

29. Our friends the Saudis

Are going ballistic at just the mention of a study looking into whether women should be allowed to drive. But they're not a repressive regime that violates human rights!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_women_behind_the_wheel

[cliss]

30. Yes, good point.

And these people are our friends? Amazing.

[Benhurst]

31. The Saudis are friends of the Bush Crime Family, which makes

them enemies of the American people.

[meganmonkey]

32. Please change your thread topic or mods will lock this thread

From the LBN rules:

4. When posting articles, always use the published title of the article as the title of the discussion thread. Additional information may be included in a thread title (in parentheses) if it helps to make the title more clear.

5. Whenever possible, post excerpts and links from reputable mainstream news sources that are available online. Do not link to blogs, vanity sites, or blatantly biased sources, except in cases where reputable mainstream sources are not available. Please make an effort to link directly to the original source of an article, instead of linking to sites that have re-published someone else's content, or re-packaged someone else's content as their own. The moderators have the authority to decide which websites are appropriate for posting in the Latest Breaking News forum and which are not.

----

This is the only forum with rules that strict...just a head's up :)

Welcome to DU!

[KaliTracy]

40. The Title IS the title on the AP Article, unless it gets changed. Here is

a screen shot.

[meganmonkey]

44. I was responding to post #29 before it was combined with this thread

:shrug:

[KaliTracy]

46. ohhh... no wonder I got confused! Thanks! n/t

[meganmonkey]

47. LOL - I bet the 'Welcome to DU' comments were the most confusing!

:)

I like the combined thread thing, but it does mess things up a little!

[CottonBear]

33. You should change the post title to the article title for LBN:

"Saudis Outraged Over Women-Drive Proposal" as per DU rules. Also provide link and no more than 4 paragraphs.

Saudis Outraged Over Women-Drive Proposal By DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press Writer
33 minutes ago


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - He just wanted his colleagues in the government's legislative arm to discuss the possibility of conducting a study into the feasibility of reversing the ban on women drivers — the only prohibition of its kind in the world.

ADVERTISEMENT

But Consultative Council member Mohammad al-Zulfa's proposal has unleashed a storm in this conservative country where the subject of women drivers remains taboo.

Al-Zulfa's cell phone now constantly rings with furious Saudis accusing him of encouraging women to commit the double sins of discarding their veils and mixing with men. He gets phone text messages calling on Allah to freeze his blood. Chat rooms bristle with insulting accusations that al-Zulfa is "driven by carnal instincts with 454 horsepower."

There even have been calls to kick al-Zulfa from the council and strip him of his Saudi nationality.

more...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_women_behind_the_wheel

Edit: Welcome to DU! :hi: :)

[KaliTracy]

42. self delete (found out this thread got combined... Thanks!) n/t

[pnutchuck]

34. Here's another even more horrifying example of their oppressive regime

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1874471.stm

I remember reading this story in the International Tribune on my way home from Bali. It was my first real understanding of how restrictive our own media is. There was not a single mention in any of the US m$m.

edit: title and welcome to DU :hi:

[truebrit71]

36. Reading stories like that makes me wonder sometimes why we don't..

..just glass the whole fucking region....

Not very 'Democratic' I know, but sometimes you have to call it what it is....


The only mention of this story in the U.S. media was as a plot line in an episode of West Wing.

[pnutchuck]

37. and we all know that's just a fictitious tv show....

:think:

[megatherium]

48. I fantasize about an energy breakthrough making oil obsolete.

The Saudis and certain of their neighbors would be completely screwed. And we wouldn't care one little bit. (Just an evil little fantasy.)

[CJCRANE]

54. Hey

I got relatives over there!

Plus not all countries over there are the same as Saudi Arabia.

Plus it's not the people's fault - just think how difficult it is to change things in the US right now and you've got democracy, freedom of speech, separation of powers and a free press. Just imagine what it's like for an ordinary person in a country that has none of those things.

On edit: forgot to mention separation of church and state.

[sarcasmo]

35. This is why cuckoo-bananas and the American Taliban love the Saudis.

[onager]

38. Anyone remember the protest by Saudi women?

I was living in Saudi Arabia before, during and after the first Gulf War.

Not long after the war ended in 1991, a group of Saudi women held a protest and drove themselves to a mosque in Riyadh on a Friday (the Muslim holy day--same as Sunday to Western Xians).

According to the press reports, they included one Saudi princess.

The story OUTRAGED the Saudis. The Arab News ran a front-page editorial, announcing that any changes in the status quo would come "peacefully, from within" and not be imposed by "contact with foreigners."

Yes, that's right, they blamed the whole thing on all those Infidels who had flooded into Saudi Arabia during the war...you know, the ones who were there to save the unworthy asses of the Saudi royal/holy family.

We local Infidels had our own joke about the incident:

How did the Saudi police know women were driving? Because they stopped to ask for directions.

[Fire Walk With Me]

39. Saudis also ban The Beatles' "Baby you can drive my car"

But remove the PMRC sticker from Zappa's instrumental record "Jazz From Hell". :sarcasm:

[olddad56]

53. Not to mention the yellow submarine.

[KamaAina]

41. Perhaps Robby Gordon would like to drive for the Saudi race team?

After all, he objects to women race drivers, using logic* nearly as puerile: "They weigh less so they can go faster! Waaaaaaah!" :nopity:

[lebkuchen]

49. These are Bush's best friends.

That ought to tell you something.

[Jack_DeLeon]

55. Poor Saudis...

they just dont want to put up with the hassles of women drivers. :D

Eh who am I kidding, if we got to put up with women drivers so should they. :evilgrin:

[KaliTracy]

59. um.... I don't know, but I would bet statistically speaking

it's male teenage drivers that we should be worry about....

[Rex]

56. Bush walks hand in hand with the Saudis

so I guess that means he is okay with keeping women as slaves.

[C_U_L8R]

60. Yo Saudis

Grow the f*ck up.

It's the 21st century.

Geez.

[truthisfreedom]

63. obviously the women in SA will have to be burka-free in order to drive.

the best drivers i've known have been women.

[PDXWoman]

64. Regime change?

Will we ever bring freedom and democracy to the saudi women?

[Coventina]

68. our frigging "allies"

:puke: