Telegraph:(LA) Satanist paedophile ring 'ritually raped up to 25 children'

[Maddy McCall]

Satanist paedophile ring 'ritually raped up to 25 children'

In the cypress flats of Tangipahoa, a fervently religious area in the swamps north of New Orleans, local people still remember proudly how the Rev Louis Lamonica vowed to "take Tangipahoa parish for Jesus". Thirty years later, the charismatic preacher's son and successor has certainly taken the parish by storm - but not exactly for Jesus.

In a case that has horrified Americans way beyond the Bible Belt, Louis Lamonica Jnr and eight members the Hosanna Church are accused of being members of a Satanic paedophile ring who ritually raped up to 25 children, as well as performing animal sacrifices.

snip/

The discovery of badly rubbed-out pentagrams on the floor and eight boxes of hooded black costumes - allegedly used both in the abuse and in "morality tales" performed to prepare the young victims - bear out some of the claims.

snip/

Lamonica, 45, said he had drunk cat's blood and poured it over the bodies of his young victims, some of whom were the abusers' children. Local police say his claims have been confirmed by some of the victims, of whom half a dozen have so far been interviewed, and by some of the fellow abusers, whose names Lamonica freely gave to police. <....> Most of the accused have been charged with aggravated rape of a child under 13, a capital offence in Louisiana. Lamonica faces two counts of aggravated rape and one of a crime against nature, relating to a poodle.


MUCH MORE AT: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/03/wsat03.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/03/ixworld.html




NEW ARREST WARRANTS FILED IN PONCHATOULA CHILD-SEX CASE

AMITE -- State judges signed new arrest warrants Thursday for seven of the nine alleged members of the Ponchatoula child-sex ring, adding a total of 19 felony counts to the list of crimes for which they face prosecution.
Three weeks ago, deputies began arresting people in connection with an alleged cult operating out of the Hosanna Church in Ponchatoula. Investigators accused members of raping children as part of occult rituals.

The new warrants increase the number of crimes the defendants are accused of committing and also add counts by the Tangipahoa Parish Sheriff's Office for Hosanna pastor Louis David Lamonica and his wife, Robbin, said Tangipahoa Parish sheriff's spokeswoman Laura Covington.

Until Thursday's action by Tangipahoa Parish authorities, the estranged couple, both 45, had been arrested and held in Livingston Parish in connection with crimes allegedly committed only in Livingston Parish. The new counts also increase the options open to the 21st Judicial District Attorney's Office for prosecuting the Lamonicas, District Attorney Scott Perrilloux said. The 21st Judicial District comprises Livingston, Tangipahoa and St. Helena parishes.

MORE AT: http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/060305/new_morecult001.shtml

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. Oh just lovely.

This ought to feed into the intellectual mire that confuses deviant behavior with religion.

[eissa]

3. Or

Make excuses for those committing these crimes by saying they were abused themselves. And then call you sexist to intimidate you into not responding. Do I sound bitter?!

[Eloriel]

199. How 'bout a link?

I've never seen anyone EXCUSE ("make excuses") for anyone committing such crimes -- but I have seen (and made) posts explaining that sexual predation of children doesn't arise from nothing, it comes from having been sexually abused oneself. That's not an excuse for the perp, it's an explanation of how people get that way (which gives us clues as a society as to how to STOP the vicious cycle of abuse).

So. How 'bout some links to support your allegation?

[MindPilot]

7. well, the two do seem be freqently in each other's company... eom

n/t

[Coventina]

2. Yikes! This is "X-Files" type stuff.

No, this is even beyond X-Files, I think.

I am beyond repulsed.

:puke:

[Chovexani]

35. Sounds like that one X-Files episode

Die Hand Die Verlizt (sp?). A very creepy episode even by XF standards.

[XemaSab]

40. Which one was that?

What happened in it?

[Chovexani]

53. It was a second season eppy

I can't spell it to save my life, hehe.

Mulder & Scully go to your typical creepy small X-Files town (I forget where, probably the Pacific Northwest) to investigate a supposed occult murder in the woods. It turned out to be just a bunch of teenagers playing at Satanic ritual in an attempt to score with some girls, and one of the group got killed by accident. Thing is, in the course of investigating this case Mulder & Scully inadvertently stumble upon an actual Satanic, SRA type group in the town. My brain is kinda fuzzy on it 'cause I haven't seen it in a while, but these people were on the surface upstanding Christian citizens of the town. I think they found out about it from this teenage girl who was the daughter of the ringleader, it was one of those multigenerational groups and she was used as a "breeder" (if you've at all read anything on SRA nonsense this should sound familiar). At any rate, the twist was that the ringleader guy wasn't the actual high priest, it was this very stereotypical librarian-looking teacher at the high school and it was strongly implied that she may have been an avatar of Satan or something.

I just remember the ending, the ringleader guy was eaten by a giant boa constrictor conjured up by Evil!Librarian and she left a note on the blackboard, something like "it's been nice working with you" that completely messed me up. I slept with the lights on that night, hehe.

If you have cable/satellite TV X-Files is in perpetual reruns and they show it every so often. It's a good episode.

[XemaSab]

59. I remember that episode

I remember the snake, especially.

I thought she was the science teacher, not the librarian.

Good times, good times.

[Chovexani]

Blame my fuzzy brain!

Hehe.

That episode scared the bejeebus out of me. Man was it cool. :scared:

[XemaSab]

100. I miss xfiles

I was eating tofutti cuties last night and thinking about ol' mulder and scully and the one episode with the shameless plug for tofutti cuties.

:-)

[whistle]

4. What in the world....this is totally crazy

:wtf:

[Boomer]

22. Who gets that bored?

You have to have too much time on your hands if drinking cat blood or making out with a poodle is your idea of a good time.

[yella_dawg]

5. Could the US actually have its first confirmed case of Satanic Pedophilia?

Sorry, but a report from the epicenter of religious hysteria in the US leaves me a bit skeptical.

Now Christian pedophiles I've heard of. Hmmm...

[Frederik]

11. Several have confessed

to taking part in those rituals and "worshipping the devil". They did find the pentagrams and the black cloaks. Somehow this reminds me of the movie "Deliverance", only reality is far worse than fiction sometimes...

[Kelvin Mace]

27. Again, confessions have been coerced in the past

ESPECIALLY in child-abuse cases.

Presumption of INNOCENCE folks, please remember this.

[aquart]

79. Yeah, I need MUCH more information.

This is the first thing a certain kind of mind accuses people of, but is it really the kind of thing that gets done in groups (other than frat parties)?

And where are the children? And where is the physical evidence?

Confessing hysterics doesn't convince me of anything.

[Megahurtz]

115. Heh heh.......

Here's some info for ya:

U.S. Conviction list of Satanic Ritual Abuse:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

You want it, you got it!!!:7

[Kelvin Mace]

146. OK

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/fuster/lessons/outcomes.html

[Megahurtz]

186. McMartin Bullshit.

"Outcomes of High Profile Daycare Sexual Abuse Cases of the 80's" Lol!:rofl:
Please! Tell me something I don't already know!!!

Wow, you're really a beginner at this stuff, aren't you?:eyes:

You've really been sold on the con. The McMartin-Botchup-Case ruined child sexual abuse cases in California for years!!!
Every Defense Attorney under the sun used this McMartin case in every child sexual abuse case to get the perps off, even if it had nothing to do with daycare!
It was a fucking mess, and a joke!

Let me ask you, are YOU from California??? Have YOU ever worked close to cases like this in California??? :eyes:

The only reason the McMartin Case was dropped is because the evidence was botched.
The outcome was that it could not be proven because the evidence was botched and there was plenty. It COULD NOT be proven that it DID NOT happen!:think:

More 80's stuff for ya: A Dr. Richard Gardner coined his PAS "Parental Alienation Syndrom " and it was used in the courts to "prove false allegations", and this is not even a real "syndrom".
This was also used as a precident in other cases by Defense Attorneys to get the perps off, even when the case had nothing to do with incest and nothing to do with so called "custody battles".

*PAS does not exsist anywhere in the American Psychiatric Association book of Mental Disorders. The guy made it up for his own agenda. Richard Gardner was an admitted pedophile himself and anyone that knows this can use this information in court if this bogus "Parent Alienation Syndrom" is being used against them to prove "false allegations".* Info about Richard Gardner M.D.:

http://cincinnatipas.com/richardgardner-pas.html

A lot has happened for California law since the 1980's, and I do not think that anyone could use the McMartin case for a precident anymore, unless of course the opposing side is ignorant.:dunce:

Just because every pedophile yells "McMartin Case!" it does not prove their innocence.

So please, tell me something I don't already know.:D

[TheWraith]

207. Whatever you're smoking, I have a friend who would like some.

The only thing about the McMartin case that was bungled was the investigation--the local police did the worst possible thing, taking the word of a self-contradicting mentally ill woman as gospel then repeating to to hundreds of parents, sparking a panic. There's no actual evidence that anything ever happened at McMartin. The stories about tunnels were proven to be false. The highly leading interviews with children were conducted by an agency who was seeking more funding on the grounds that there was so much ritual abuse to investigate. No child ever showed signs of having been abused.

If McMartin ruined child abuse cases in Cali, which I expect it did, it's because it was an utter farce, a public panic fueled by ludicrous rumor and fearmongering by those who stood to gain money and fame.

[Minstrel Boy]

222. children were abused and tunnels existed

The case was botched, like the one at the Presidio (for which, again, ample evidence existed for abuse).

The cases were so botched, you'd almost think that was the intention...

[TheWraith]

229. Evidence, please?

I have this little mental thing--I like to actually see evidence. Maybe it's just a side effect of having seen so many cases, of all types, where claimms of overwhelming quantities of evidence turn out to be a cover for the weakness of the evidence itself.

So where's the evidence of molestation? Reiner, the second DA on the case, stated in no uncertain terms that the case had been wildly over-filed based on "incredibly weak" evidence. Two different juries agreed that there was no solid evidence for the charges, and that the interviews with the children were so leading as to be worthless. An investigator for the DA determined that there was no evidence of underground tunnels on the McMartin property. Judy Johnson, the mother who initiated the entire panic, was a certified paranoid schizophrenic who had to be hospitalized by the police after threatening her father and brother with a shotgun.

The following is verbatim from a police report. These claims were made to the police by Judy Johnson on February 15th and 16th, 1984.

The red circled people in this ad (referring to a newspaper ad for a local health club) are all familiar to Billy. The 3 women are witches. The man poked them. Peggy, Babs, and Betty (the preschool owner and two teachers) dressed up as witches too. The person who buried Billy is Miss Betty. There were no holes in the coffin. Babs went with him on a train with another girl where he was hurt by men in suits. Ray waved good bye. The train moved fast. It had lights. Ray took him back to school. Possibly Big Brothers. Peggy gave Billy an enema before he was taken away (from McMartin sch.) Staples were put in Billy's ears, nipples & tongue. Babs put scissors in his eyes. She hit him a lot. She chopped up animals and said she would come in the night and take him away. She pushed his stomach and threw him against the wall. He has extreme fear regarding Babs. Also something awful would come in the window. Ray made small babies cry. Billy was hurt by a lion. An elephant played with the lion, squirted H2O. Then the lion didn't move. Billy was on his back. Ray let him pull the lion's tail. The lion roared but didn't move. Betty was there, and other people. One lady took pictures.

February 22nd, 1984:

Billy feels that he left LAX in an airplane and flew to Palm Springs area. Described the airplane as one like used by federal express only it had windows. Billy went to armory located behind Judy (?) residence. Ray drove there in his VW bus. Billy went with Peggy who drove a red and white VW bus, at the armory there were some people there wearing army uniforms. The goat man was there. After going to the armory, Billy was taken to Sand Dune Park, at the armory it was a ritual type atmosphere. When Billy was taken to a church, Judy believes it was the Church of Religious Science (address). At the church Peggy drilled a child under the arms (arm pits). Atmosphere was that of magic acts. (Ray flew through the air.)

Other, similarly improbable accounts that other children were manipulated into providing include being molested in a hot air balloon, being molested by celebrities and politicians, and meeting space mutants.

In my view, lending any sort of credibility to crap like McMartin does a hundred times more damage to modern cases than could ever be done by saying that the whole McMartin case was paranoia and fearmongering.

[Megahurtz]

106. Lol!

:eyes: Yeah right.:sarcasm:

[TheWraith]

210. I see.

So if I accuse you of having anally raped a five-year-old boy, it must be true, since there are NEVER ANY false allegations? In that case, screw the courts, let's get some wood and have a witchburning!

Or do you conceed that there may sometimes be false or erroneous charges, and that we actually need a justice system to determine facts?

[fishnfla]

142. The pastor walked in to sheriff's office and confessed

according to Newsweek. The Lamonica guy showed up and told his tale,cold. The cops were shocked. Once they picked their jaws up off the floor the booked him, then it was his turn to be shocked.

Hardly a coerced confession.

[aquart]

228. Where's the statement that a psychiatrist has seen this loony?

Were the other practicing Satanists also happy to incriminate themselves? If not, how were their confessions obtained?

"Hi, there. Your pastor says you're a Satanist and you and he have been raping boys and girls. Is it true?"

"Pastor never lies. We do it all the time."

See? I just don't really see that happening. Don't say it didn't, just find it odd.

[yella_dawg]

29. That strengthens the believability of the story some...

But a guy in the next town up the road confessed to over 200 grizzly murders twenty years ago. Spent months on national TV. Eventually they actually convicted him on two counts. Mostly, I suspect, because he was an asshole more than because he was a murderer.

This case just reeks of "I wanna be on TV".

I'm going to take a lot of convincing before I'm going to buy this tale.

It sounds too much like stories from back in the Reagan era. Underground tunnels, rituals. All completely BS.

The only documented instances of poison Halloween candy have been copycats of urban legends.

[Kelvin Mace]

58. Other possible explanations

is someone wanting to get EVEN with someone else who wronged them.

Person A makes up story to get person B in trouble. Authorities are too willing to believe are tragedy ensues when tale spins out of control.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Except, in your scenario, the alleged perp usually doesn't voluntarily

stroll into the police department, confess and point the police to evidence, which validates the confession.

:shrug:

[Kelvin Mace]

109. He does if his point is to

pay back his spouse at any cost.

[Megahurtz]

118. "All completely B.S. ha ha!"

Do you have proof of that???:)

[Eloriel]

200. A word of caution about Pentagrams

AND black cloaks --

Pentagrams with a single point at the top are the GOOD witches; pentagrams which are upside down, with the single point at the bottom and two points at the top of the 5-pointed star are the black arts folks, including apparently Satanists.

There are a lot of very fine Wiccans on this board, we owe it to them I think to get it right and spread information that there is a difference and exactly what it is.

Edited: and as for black cloaks, a lot of people wear them, even folks who are neither Wiccans nor Satanists.

[Frederik]

218. Sure

I don't think it's important whether they call themselves Satanists or whatever, but this evidence does point to rituals taking place within this church. I guess it could be conceived that those rituals were completely innocuous, but that's not what the minister himself is saying.

Of course other people use pentagrams which has nothing to do with either Satanism or criminal activities.

[Megahurtz]

105. "FIRST confirmed case of Satanic Pedophilia???

:eyes: I think you may need to get out more often.:sarcasm:

[aquart]

226. Link to previous confirmed cases????

Got one?

[MindPilot]

6. Allow me to play the skeptic here...

There was a period in the '80s where "ritual satanic abuse" was the crime d'jur and it turned out to be for the most part a fabrication by the fear-mongering media.

I'm just sayin'...

[Pacifist Patriot]

8. That was the second thing that went through my mind.

[htuttle]

10. But in those cases....

...they didn't find pentagrams on the floor and black hooded robes in the closet and they didn't have a full confession from the 'minister' of the services.

This isn't one of those cases where the children 'remembered' the events under hypnosis. The former minister of this 'church' confessed to police, as have several others he named.

[Maddy McCall]

17. Yes, and the mother of one of the children, who was involved in the abuse

herself (and who has since been charged) called the police and ignited this investigation.

AND there are videos of the crimes being committed.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Clarification:

The police/press CLAIM there is video evidence.

Again, it is quite possible sexual abuse of children has occured. The more sensationalistic charges will require more scrutiny.

[Maddy McCall]

46. Ya know, it would be completely idiotic of the police to claim that there

is video evidence if there is not.

There's no reason for them to do this, unless, of course, they have obtained video evidence.

Maybe you should contact the police and interrogate them yourself, since, according to you, they have some sort of agenda. :wtf:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. Amen, MM!

Some police are bad apples, no question about it, but the kneejerk "all police are evil" attitude that sometimes arises here is pathetic.

This is a high-profile case that is being watched carefully. It behooves the police to dot their i's and cross their t's.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

56. Please show me where I have said

"all police are evil".

This is a high-profile case that is being watched carefully. It behooves the police to dot their i's and cross their t's.

The police often botch "high profile" cases.

Jon Ramsey and O.J. are good examples.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. It Sure Seems Like Your Attitude

That has pretty much run through this thread.

And sure police botch big cases sometimes. But their very strong incentive is not to do so, obviously.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

111. My "attitude"

is that people accused of incredibly serious crimes should have the evidence examined carefully before people start calling other people child rapists (or defenders of child rapists).

The police have botched more high profile cases than I've had hot dinners. The fact that they are "high profile" makes police and prosecutors prone to grandstanding and trampling people's rights in the first place.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

125. So Let Me Ask You

No question police have botched some cases. Does that mean it necessarily follows, to you, that the police botch cases as a general rule? Is it more likely than not, in your world?

Please, enlighten us as to your opinion.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

149. Since police

have repeatedly botched cases like this through ignorance, grandstanding, ego and political ambition, it behooves us to view any new cases of this type with caution.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

153. Try Directly Answering the Question

Evasiveness like that is weak.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

163. I did

The police have botched these kinds of cases in the past. This is established fact. Ergo, caution in accepting their claims is warranted. What part of my answer do you not undertsnad?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

167. What Part of My QUESTION Do You Not Understand?

I'll repeat it here, since you seem to have missed it:

Does that mean it necessarily follows, to you, that the police botch cases as a general rule? Is it more likely than not, in your world?

DTH

[Megahurtz]

140. And likewise,

the police often do not botch high-profile cases.

[Kelvin Mace]

152. So since they only botch

a third of their cases, we should just skip over this nonsense about the presumption of innocence?

If you are arrested, you MUST be guilty.

Are you sure you are on the right web site?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

157. That's for the Jury to Decide

Newsflash: we're not the jury.

And who the hell are you to be suggesting that people are effectively RWers, just because they don't subscribe to your viewpoint?

DTH

[Maddy McCall]

162. That's right.

The only place the presumption of innocence matters is in the potential jury pool. And, since I'm not in the jury pool, I can view this case however I want.

AND, when some people take as ridiculous of positions as some of the defenders in this thread, I often wonder if THEY are RW plants who come here to make us look even more like a fringe, crazed left.

[Maddy McCall]

173. Kelvin, if you want to discuss this with me, keep it above the boards.

I have no intention to discuss this topic with you through PMs.

If you want to be indignant, perhaps you should look back to where you suggested to DTH that he should visit a RW message board.

Goodbye.

[Voltaire99]

164. You don't understand the problem

Some police are bad apples, no question about it, but the kneejerk "all police are evil" attitude that sometimes arises here is pathetic.


The "only a few bad apples" theory is a figment of right wing imagination.

Critics of police corruption can point to massive, systemic police scandals on both coasts over the past decade, from Ramparts in LA to the vast misdeeds investigated by the Mollen Commission in NY.

Dozens of convictions have been overturned, federal courts have had to oversee entire corrupt departments, millions of dollars in taxpayer's money have been spent rooting out this evil and settling victims' claims (over $100 million in the LA scandal alone).

Most recently, Detroit has starred in its own drama of widespread police corruption.

Try doing a little research into the subject; there's plenty to read.

[Kelvin Mace]

54. Let's go back to the story....

Charles Reed, a deputy sheriff, said this included videos of "morality plays" performed to confuse the victims, and in some cases their equally under-educated parents, about the morality of the abuse.

This is the police telling you what is on a tape no one but the police has seen. What the tape is evidence of will be determined by a jury. He does not say that on this tape children are molested.

Try to remember that some folks consider evidence of "Satanic rituals" to be Harry Potter novels.

[Maddy McCall]

57. You're really grabbing at straws.

Read the rest of the article. It tells you how the "morality plays" were used, by whom, and on whom.

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Perhaps you could show me...

The article I am reading only refers to the videos in the paragraph I quoted.

I am not "grasping at straws", I am sticking to the presumption of innocence by viewing a media feeding-frenzy with skeptecism.

Why is this "bad"?

Since when are police claims of the evidence, statements, and context accepted as absolute truth?

If they have in fact arrested 25 people, then this dicussion (and many more like it) is going to irrepairably DESTROY these people's reputations for all time. Society will forgive you every crime except messing with children. Since this is the case, why is it wrong to demand the rules be followed and evidence scrutinized CAREFULLY?

[Maddy McCall]

63. They have NOT arrested 25 people. They HAVE arrested nine.

There are "up to 25 victims." Six have already been interviewed.

Read the article.

[Ripley]

64. Why do some people contort into pretzels to

Defend the most heinous rapists in the world?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :nuke:

[Maddy McCall]

66. Because it makes them feel intellectually superior.

:shrug:

[Ripley]

68. Or could it be something Shakespeare said?

Thou doth protests too much, methinks.

[frictionlessO]

132. Hey!!! Do not insinuate that kind of shit without proof!

I happen to believe the whole story, Im also a pagan and this case makes me very nervous because of the tendency for people (even on this board before) to equate paganism with satanism.

However what that post just insinuated in case you did not know (which Im hoping is the case), is that the poster you were refering to might have reasons to protest due to their own culpability. I am quite sure you did not mean to suggest that said poster is somehow involved with peadophilia, right?

I mean please explain what you meant by that comment.

[Kelvin Mace]

155. Excuse me

do you imply something here?

[LostinVA]

161. You need to back off of this accusation

You have no right to continuously insinuate on this thread that Kelvin Mace is a child rapist.

[TheWraith]

212. I really don't give a fuck about all of you waving your dicks around,

Or whatever anatomical equivalent you care to grip and shake as proof of your superiority. But it's way over the line to insinuate that another member is a rapist or a child molester because you don't agree with them. Maintaining a presumption of innocence, or a neutral bias, is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint, and if you don't like it, I suggest you find someplace less egalitarian.

[Kelvin Mace]

76. Maddy, I am a tad confused

You know my reputation and that I am rather measured in my responses. I do not post here to feel "intellectually superior" to any one.

I offer my opinion which people may take or leave as they see fit.

Please explain to me why I am wrong for standing up for the presumption of innocence? Why am I wrong for wanting people to recieve a fair trial, one free of the media circus that this case is already degenerating into?

[Ripley]

83. Who here doesn't want them to have a fair trial?

We all want to allow for the presumption of innocence, a fair trial - let the legal system work - but free of media circus? Are you kidding me? Why in this day in age when the freaking media wastes days chasing a runaway bride do you object to media coverage of such a fucking perverted case? Don't you think that community has a right to know?

Freaky cases aren't new, remember the Limburgh baby kidnapping?

People's opinions on a message board or around the water cooler are inevitable and you are being absurd to suggest discussing this in some way will jeopordize their "fair trial." No one here is on the jury pal.

I question why you are so incessant with your presumption of innocent in this particular case? Odd, that.

[Kelvin Mace]

91. You have asked a rhetorical question...

about why people twist themselves in order to defend rapists, your implication is that the people accused are, in fact, guilty. So much for the presumption of innocence.

Then you make this remark:

I question why you are so incessant with your presumption of innocent in this particular case? Odd, that.

This question and comment casts me in a sinister light, implying that I have some dark motive for insisting that people be treated fairly.

I have to say that I take considerable offense at that.

[High Plains]

230. What the fuck?

"I question why you are so incessant with your presumption of innocent in this particular case? Odd, that."

Ah, yes, that damned presumption of innocence. I question why you question why people would demand that guilt be proven. Sheesh.

[The Straight Story]

224. Media Circus?

I though we were the media (and since we are covering and posting so much on it here, that may well show the MSM that people have interest in it all which, to them, will justify coverage).

:)

[Kelvin Mace]

73. Oh, I'm sorry

I thought I was defending the right of an accused criminal to the presumption of innocence, that the state must PROVE its case for someone to go to prison.

Apparently, now a days only an accusation must be made and the person is ajudged guilty.

You also score points for smearing me as a defender of "rapists"

How nice.

So, everyone called a terrorist IS a terrorist because they were accused of such and the newspaper reported it.

[Frederik]

92. you are right in emphasizing

the assumption of innocence. But I don't think this has the air of "media frenzy" or "hysteria". People are confessing voluntarily, hooded black cloaks and pentagrams are found where they tell the police to look for it, videos exist that the police believe show incriminating activities even though they may not show the actual abuse. But it's up to the jury to make the final judgement, of course.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. So far, in the story

one person has confessed. A person who is estranged from his wife who he accusses. Black hooded "costumes" are reported to have been found by the police. A pentagram was found where the confessor said it would be, but we do not know when it was drawn or who drew it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. Because Some People Hate the Police

And would rather presume them guilty than the people being charged with the heinous crimes.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

93. Ah,

yes, we liberals really detest the police. Nothing give us greater joy than defending child rapists. After all, if you police arrest you, you MUST be guilty.

I'm sorry, did I slip into the Limbaugh Zone?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

95. Defending Accused Child Rapists -- as Loudly as You Have -- Frankly Stinks

There are way better test cases for the ACLU -- and for you -- to take up, IMO. Shit like this does indeed make liberals look bad with ordinary middle America, and yes, I do indeed hate that.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

113. So, people accused of crimes

are not entitled folks advocating for rational review of the evidence?

Civil rights apply to everyone or they apply to no one. I am defending the rights of the accused to the presumption of innocence. This offends you since you equate defending the rights of the accused with defending the crime the accused is supposed to have committed. This brand of logic is something I expect to hear from Conservatives, not liberals.

You know, if you are trying to imply something, why don't you just spit out?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

117. They're Already Going to Have Their Defender

And it will either be a court-appointed or a hired lawyer. Their defender certainly does not have to be you, unless you really, really want to be for whatever reason.

This isn't merely a "defending Nazis' right to free speech" bit. These people have actually been accused of heinous crimes where there is enough probable cause to warrant multiple arrest warrants, and where there have been confessions and other indicia of evidence that look pretty strong, on the surface.

Might there be extenuating circumstances? Sure, and if they come out, I'll be happy to revisit the issue. Until then, these fuckers can rot for all I care. And so can anyone who chooses to defend them based solely on bare-ass conjecture and mistrust of the police.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

131. Again, you seem to be deliberate misreading my remarks.

And it will either be a court-appointed or a hired lawyer. Their defender certainly does not have to be you, unless you really, really want to be for whatever reason.

I am not offering to defend them, I simply have cautioned against trampling their rights in the rush to find them guilty. I illustrated this caution by reminding people that cases are not always what they seem at the outset and therefore we must be vigilant to follow the rules and preserve the rights of the accused.

These people have actually been accused of heinous crimes where there is enough probable cause to warrant multiple arrest warrants, and where there have been confessions and other indicia of evidence that look pretty strong, on the surface.

And this would mean... what? Again, I have read of ONE confession. The fact that the police arrested multiple people somehow means they MUST be guilty?

Seven people were arrested in the "Little Rascals" case and four in the McMartin case. When did the number of people arrested become and indicator of guilt?

Requiring the police to behave professionally and to conduct a thorough investigation and not turn such a proceeding into a sideshow is not "distrusting" the police.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

151. You're Certainly Defending Them Here

For whatever ridiculous reason.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

168. Oh, I see

defending one's views is also some how sinister.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

172. Sometimes, Yes, Absolutely

Not all views are created equal. For example, racists, sexists and homophobes have views, and I often find the defense of views like that to be reprehensible, too.

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

181. Again, what are you implying?

Do you compare me to these types of people?

[Maddy McCall]

159. I live in the neighboring county.I am not a part of thepotential jury pool

so I can view them as guilty as I want. Their rights to a presumption of innocence only apply in the court room, with the judge and jury.

And it's not the number of people arrested that's an indicator of guilt. It's the number who confess and/or are found guilty. As of right now, AT LEAST three people in this case have confessed.

But you keep on defending the slime. I have nothing left to say to someone like you.

[Janice325]

211. Maddy, are you in Louisiana??

You wrote: "I live in the neighboring county.I am not a part of thepotential jury pool"
Louisiana is the only state with "parishes" instead of "counties."

[Maddy McCall]

217. No, I live in Mississippi, just north of the state line, in the county...

bordering Tangi.

[High Plains]

235. And thank God you're not on the jury pool

Since all you need is a newspaper story to arrive at a verdict.

[aquart]

227. So accused rapists are automatically guilty?

And should not have lawyers or trials or anyone speaking to possible innocence?

What other accusations work that way?

[High Plains]

233. Dude, think again

Nobody is defending child rapists. Some of us are expressing skepticism about these mind-blowing charges, and given the history of false similar allegations around satantic child sex abuse, that skepticism certainly seems warranted.

Perhaps you might want to wait for a verdict in these cases before you start screaming.

And would you rather look good with ordinary middle America than ensure that justice is done? What if ordinary middle America wants to burn the witches?

[fishwax]

147. And other people would rather not presume ANYONE'S guilt

and instead wait until the legal system runs its course.

[High Plains]

231. Take a deep breath

We don't have to hate the police not to take them at their word. Or do you just belive everything they say?

[Megahurtz]

107. It really makes me wonder.

n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

67. Sorry, my error

But the point remains the same.

[msanthrope]

82. An excellent point, too.

I am old enough to remember the McMartin case. The police and prosecutors claimed that they had all kinds of evidence. They also had a mother of the victim pressing the case, and lots of press claiming they were in the right.

I'm not saying the charges are true, or false. I'm just saying that they need to be scrutinized.

[Ripley]

88. Who says they aren't being scrutinized?

Who says the case is not being carefully considered and investigated?

Because of the McMartin case, no other situation like that could possibly be true? You are doing quite a disservice to real human (and pet) victims if this is true.

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[msanthrope]

104. I'm not saying either way---

Look, it's entirely possible it's true, it's entirely possible it's hysteria. I've read nothing that indicates to me that I should not treat this with skepticism.

Urging scrutiny is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Take a breath and calm yourself. Adults don't name call when merely questioned.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

124. "it's entirely possible it's true, it's entirely possible it's hysteria"

And by hysteria, I presume you mean "not true." Are these two propositions of equal probability in your opinion, based on everything we know?

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

133. We don't "know" anything

We are simply reacting to what we are being told by the press that the police claims happened.

Given the track record of the police in these types of cases, caution against hysteria and trampling people's rights is warranted.

[Frederik]

219. If it is "hysteria"

then it is hysteria on the part of the people who voluntarily turned themselves in. That's how this case started.

[Kelvin Mace]

116. No one is slamming the victims,

BUT I have seen too many trials that started just like this, and everybody decides the accused are guilty at the outset, especially the police.

That said, I am cautioning people to take these early reports by the police with a grain of salt. People's political careers are made on cases like this, which is why they LOVE talking to the press when they should be keeping their mouth shut and nailing down the evidence.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

122. Why the Hell Do You Care So Much?

That said, I am cautioning people to take these early reports by the police with a grain of salt.

What the hell is it to you whether or not people around a virtual water cooler, nearly all of whom live outside of the area and even STATE in question, choose to rail against crimes like these and the people who were arrested for it based on evidence such as confessions?

DTH

[Kelvin Mace]

134. Why does it anger you so much

that I caution people not to believe everything they read until they can more readily evaluate the evidence?

Again, I have see reports of ONE confession. Is there another?

Again, you imply that my posting on this the way I have may have some sinister conotation. If you wish to make an accusation, speak up. Or do you you prefer "smear by innuendo"?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

148. Why Does It Anger Me?? Pedophilia Really Pisses Me Off, Go Figure!

As for you, since you've asked, my gut tells me that you are a liberal of the purely theoretical (AKA "ivory tower") variety who is more concerned about supposed "victims" of the police than the ACTUAL victims here: children who have had their innocence stolen forever.

Read post #123 and get some perspective.

DTH

[LostinVA]

165. You have no idea if Kelvin Mace knows someone who has been

molested. You have a right to disagree with him over this case, but NOT a right to insinuate he's a child rapist, or is an apologist for child rapists, or lives in an ivory tower and knows nothing about the real world. No one on this board knows other people's personal lives, and some of these slurs are outrageous on a progressive board.

And Kelvin Mace is NOT defending these "slime" as Maddy McCall termed them. He is saying that so many people have gotten burned on these cases because of hysteria, false confessions, iffy evidence, etc. I believe all he is saying is that we need to all take a breath and see where the evidence goes. There is no evidence for a trial yet. I used to date a cop, and they always said, "We just collect the evidence, we don't make judgments on it." That's for the the trial. These are early days. That is not defending child rapists, it is defending the rule of law.

People on here tonight need to calm down and not write accusatory things about each other.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

169. I Never Called Him a Child Rapist, You Are Confusing Me With Someone Else

He is certainly defending people accused of pedophilia, however, and acting as their apologist. And I think that stinks.

As for my gut opinion of him being an ivory tower liberal, that was clearly labeled as my gut opinion after he asked me specifically for that opinion. So please take your kneejerk outrage somewhere else.

DTH

[LostinVA]

174. You need to take YOUR knee jerk outrage somewhere

Disagreeing with someone does not give you a right to just be rude and mean. I apologize for confusing you with another poster. However, Kelvin Mace is not acting as an apologist for child rapists. How dare you accuse him of that!? He is criticizing the way these type of cases are often handled, with the most salacious and incriminatory details leaked to the press. The press ruins with it. Everyone screams "Off with their heads," and very often these details are proven not to be true. In many cases, not just child rape cases. But by then, the harm has been done. The police often do "botch" in that poor judgment is made and leaks are made to the press when they shouldn't be.

[Eloriel]

202. No, that's not true

EDITED TO ADD: This is in response to LostInVA, not DTH. I added it in the wrong place.


Not true at all:

He is criticizing the way these type of cases are often handled, with the most salacious and incriminatory details leaked to the press. The press ruins with it. Everyone screams "Off with their heads," and very often these details are proven not to be true. In many cases, not just child rape cases. But by then, the harm has been done.

Details aren't the important part of basic charges, and I can't see why anyone would be concerned if certain "details" were wrong but underlying charges were not.

What I want to address is the common misconception that people (children and women) make false charges. They don't. There incidence of false charges of sexual assault by children and women of sexual assault is roughly the same as for all other crimes -- under 2%.

That means that whenever you hear about some woman claiming she's been raped, or some child(ren) have been molested, you shouldn't be any more concerned about whether the charges are "false" or not (or even vindictively motivated) than you would if someone claimed to have been mugged and robbed, had their house broken into, their car stolen, their dog poisoned, etc., etc., etc.

I NEVER HEAR ANYONE DOUBT THOSE CRIMES UNLESS CERTAIN FACTS IN THE CASE START TO POINT TO SOMETHING NOT ADDING UP AND THE POSSIBILITY OF A FALSE CHARGE.

BELIEVE THE CHILDREN. That is what they need above all in such cases, and therapy as soon as possible thereafter, preferrably with someone who specializes in child sexual abuse issues but in any case someone chosen very carefully.

People who do not want to believe charges by women or children worry me. They worry me a lot. Trying to destroy the credibility of the accuser is such an age old defense of this type of crime (and certain others), that it's where some people go as a knee-jerk reaction, almost. But it's almost NEVER the case that the women or children are lying. The lack of respect for women as a class and children too -- respect enough to understand that they are not unredemed, chronic liars by nature -- troubles me.

[fishwax]

175. Where is he defending him?

Where has he said they weren't guilty? Where has he said they were innocent. He just expressed an opinion in accordance with the presumption of innocence. Now, as a private citizen not involved with the legal case, you don't have to presume innocence. But to claim it's somehow wrong to distinguish between accusations and conviction is absurd.

Saying someone is innocent until proven guilty makes them an apologist?

[Kelvin Mace]

178. I have done no such thing

He is certainly defending people accused of pedophilia, however, and acting as their apologist. And I think that stinks.

I have defended the rights of the accused. You have equated that with defending the accused's alledged actions.

[LostinVA]

180. You know what? Forget it

This is a PROGRESSIVE BOARD where we can discuss things. This thread is the nastiest, meanest one I think I've ever seen. People who are just giving their opinion that a case of child molestation is being transformed into Satantic Panic are being pilloried and called rapists and rapist apologists and everything else. There is a disgusting amount of bullying on this thread. No one made you god and your opinions golden. All of our opinions have equal weight until the trial. God, what is happening to DU???

When this case first broke I also advised caution, and I too was called nasty names by some of the same posters on this board. This makes me SICK. Why? because child rape hits very close to home to me, and calling me this is akin to calling a Holocaust survivor a Nazi.

So, have fun with your nasty games. I'm putting this thread on ignore.

Shame to all of you for refusing to allow discourse. And for making accusations against people who have been victims.

[High Plains]

234. So people accused of crimes should not be defended?

Your thinking is beginning to verge on the bizarre. These people have been accused, not convicted. You appear to argue that once someone is accused, he is also guilty. You also appear to argue that no one has any right to question the accusations. You are letting your hatred of pedophiles blind you to basic justice.

[Megahurtz]

150. Oh Waaaaa!!!

:cry:But those poor people's REPUTATIONS!!! Oh noooo!!!:nopity:
My heart just bleeds for them!!!

:sarcasm:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist!:D

[Kelvin Mace]

179. So, if this guy and his wife are in fact guilty

but the seven other people are completely innocent, the thorough trashing of their reputation is perfectly acceptable?

OK. Right.

[Megahurtz]

187. If and I say only IF

"the other seven people are innocent" then they have to pay the price for associating with these people who committed these crimes. They could even be charged as an accessory. If you're with the bunch that robs the bank, then you get hauled in too. That's just the way it is.

You know, sort of like "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" or like "you play with fire and you get burned"?:hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

232. Tell the prisoners at Gtmo, Bhagram and Abu Ghraib that.

I double dog dare ya.

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

69. Could not these videos of morality plays be the source of the

pentagrams?

How are you going to make a scary video warning of the dangers of satanism without drawing a pentagram on the floor and dressing the actors up in robes?

Maybe some 75 IQ parent saw the video and thought it was the real thing.

I thought DU prided itself of evaluating evidence. Not rushing to judgement.

[Maddy McCall]

75. In these morality plays, is it part of the "drama" for the pastor of...

the church to walk into the police department and confess, and provide evidence? Was killing cats and fucking dogs part of the "morality play" warning of the dangers of satan, of which you speak?

Do you know any Christian congregations that would desecrate their church by drawing a pentagram on the floor, spilling cat blood on it, and then raping dogs--just to convince the children that Satanism is dangerous.

Occam's razor. Right now, the evidence is pretty damning.

[Kelvin Mace]

85. *sigh*

The police CLAIM Lamonica says he drank cat's blood (no mention of dogs in the two stories I've read other than FBI tracker dogs).

I also note this in the second story:

Until Thursday's action by Tangipahoa Parish authorities, the estranged couple, both 45, had been arrested and held in Livingston Parish in connection with crimes allegedly committed only in Livingston Parish.

Of course, no one has ever accused an estranged spouse of false crimes, even if it got them in trouble, out of spite.

[fishwax]

145. There's also this

<<The additional counts came a day after an attorney for the pastor accused of participating in the child-sex ring contended that information released about his client would not hold up in court.>>

So apparently there is contention over what may or may not have been said by the accused.

The presumption of innocence is fundamental to our legal system. Citizens, of course, don't really have to buy into that, and are free to come to any conclusion they want to.

Based on the stories I've read, I'm convinced enough that something awfully fucked up has gone down. But the fact is that we really don't know much other than what the police have told us through the media. And while I may be inclined to believe these guys are guilty of something, I find the holy heat you've taken for asserting the legal presumption of innocence is astounding.

[Kelvin Mace]

78. You and me both

But because children are involved people are allowing emothion rathen than reason to carry the day.

[aquart]

89. Just as it was completely idiotic of Colin Powell

To go before the UN and insist that Iraq had WMD?

Yet people do that, because they know how many credulous fools are out there, just waiting for someone to tell them how and what to think, and the worse it is, the better.

And the police, of course, have never been known to lie. Or fabricate evidence. Never happened.

[aquart]

81. Videos?

In whose possession?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. Those were the differences I noted

The number one being, this has been exposed by the perpetrators. If nothing else that alone sets it apart.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Did the alleged perp in those cases walk into the police station and...

confess his "sins" as Lamonica did?

[Kelvin Mace]

138. Again, we have is the police claim

that this happened. And it probably did, but until we read the confession and until we investigate the circumstances, the physical evidence and all the witnesses, it is just their claim without context.

If these people are determined (after a sober and thorough investigation) to be guilty, then nail 'em up and throw away the hammer. But to assume guilt based on what has been put out so far is rather unjust.

[Eloriel]

203. I'm not familiar with any cases where police's "claims" were wrong

A point you keep emphasizing as if it were common. Perhaps you can fill in some of those gaps in my education for me? Some links would be helpful.

If anything, they usually say much LESS than they know.

Now, the Richard Jewell case was one. ONE. You make it sound like it happens all the time -- so much so that we can't trust what the police say on the record.

I really would like to know more about your claims on this.

Edited to say: NEvermind. I finally found your post that you live in NC. I responded downthread. I think you're overcompensating, personally, because whatever happened in THAT case does NOT happen in all cases or even most cases. But you're free to believe what you want.

[Frederik]

13. But several have confessed to taking part in it

and they did find the pentagrams on the basement floor and the black cloaks...

[Kelvin Mace]

25. Please!

We do not know:

1) How the confessions were obtained.
2) Exactly WHAT they confessed to (what the police say and what actually happened are often different.
3) Whether these people have a clue what a pnetagram looks like.
4) Whether they found "Satanic Black Cloaks™" of choir robes.
5) What agendas the police/witnesses may have.

I live in NC and saw good people's lives destroyed by bogus claims of ritual abuse and organized pedophile rings.

I want to see the ACTUAL evidence, not the newspaper/police's account of the evidence.

[Frederik]

31. Two of the (suspected) perpetroators

were the ones who initiated the investigation, by contacting the police and confessing, if we are to believe the police.

If you want "actual" evidence, you have to make a visit to Pochatoula I guess. Otherwise you can only relate to what the newspapers write.

[Maddy McCall]

41. I drove down to Ponchatoula a couple of days ago...

I was in Hammond anyway, so I drove down 51, and I saw the church. Totally eerie feeling all over Ponchatoula.

[Kelvin Mace]

The ACTUAL evidence

will be the evidence presented in court.

I have read numerous accounts of evidence of all sorts of crimes that somehow never showed up when the case was tried.

Again, the corporate media are going to be all over this case and that usually results people (victims and the accused) not getting a fair trial.

We know what the press reports the police claim. We do not know the facts. These kinds of cases spin out of control quite easily.

[Maddy McCall]

48. Additional charges filed today.

But there's no evidence. :eyes:

[Kelvin Mace]

65. Filing charges does not require evidence

only belief that evidence exists to support the charge.

I have not said their is NO evidence. I said that until the evidence is examined, we cannot evaluate the validity of the charge.

Evidence can be a sworn statement. People often lie in sworn statements. This doesn't stop the police from arresting people and DA's from charging them on the basis of such evidence.

A woman was arrested for child sexual exploitation and disseminating child pornography based on the evidence of a photograph of a naked child. The jury later ruled that the photo was innocent and the woman was acquitted.

Her reputation, however, was destroyed.

[Maddy McCall]

70. Keep on comparing apples to oranges.

Or being unable to see the forest for the trees. Whatever floats your boat.

Several of the perps in this case have already confessed and provided evidence to the police. You keep pulling up these unrelated cases as if it somehow proves the innocence of the Ponchatoula group.

Find me a case in which several people voluntarily confessed to sex crimes against children, provided the police with several different forms of evidence (DNA evidence is forthcoming, from what I've heard from a Tangi deputy), but then had charges dropped or convictions reversed because there was some kind of "misunderstanding."

[Kelvin Mace]

121. I am reading TWO stories on this

and so far only one person has confessed. If you have other sources, please point me to them.

You keep pulling up these unrelated cases as if it somehow proves the innocence of the Ponchatoula group.

I have done no such thing. I have pointed out that other "open and shut" cases turned out to be anything but when all the dust settled.

For some reason, defending the rights of the accused is considered the same as defending the crime itself.

The evidence may show these people as guilty as charged, in which case, lock 'em up and forget them. The evidence may also show another case of premature adjudication.

[Minstrel Boy]

197. more than one confession:

The investigation began in March, when two children were interviewed by a child advocacy center in Ohio about possible molestation at Hosanna Church in Ponchatoula. Within the week, Nicole Bernard called authorities in Livingston Parish and said she had fled Louisiana in fear for her child.

According to an attachment requesting to search the storage facility rented by Bernard, former Hosanna pastor Louis Lamonica walked into the Livingston Parish Sheriff's Office May 16 and confessed that he started a Satanic pedophile ring within the church in 1999. The attachment said Lamonica implicated himself and six other adults in ritual rape sessions involving animals and about 15 child victims.
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/4530236/detail.html

Austin Aaron Bernard III, 36, of SW Railroad Avenue, in Hammond, was arrested on a charge of aggravated rape of a child under the age of 13.

Police said Bernard confessed to detectives that he had sex with a young girl in November 2002 and admitted to knowing about alleged sexual acts involving children, dogs and cats that occurred at Hosanna Church, where he was a member.
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/4503827/detail.html

Tangipahoa Parish Sheriff Daniel Edwards said Friday that members of a Ponchatoula church cult accused of sexually abusing children and animals told detectives they carried out the practices for years as part of a devil-worshipping ritual involving cat blood.

"This is hard to talk about and harder to believe, but some of the suspects have told us their intention in all of this was devil worshipping," Edwards said.
http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/052105/new_cult001.shtml

[Maddy McCall]

36. Yes we do. I've been keeping up with this since Day 1.

1. Confessions were volunteered by the alleged abusers. The preacher walked into the police station and confessed. The mother of one of the children, herself an alleged abuser, called from Ohio and told the cops where the evidence was, in a storage locker.

2. Read the numerous articles about this. All agree that the preacher and several members confessed to molesting children. The preacher himself confessed to slaughtering cats, drinking their blood, and having sex with dogs, to "teach" the children how to have sex.

3. Evidently they have a "clue" what a pentagram is, since one was found on the floor of the sanctuary. Southerners aren't as culturally naive as some DUers suggest. Everyone knows what a pentagram looks like.

4. Most choir robes don't have hoods. Indeed, I've never seen a black, hooded choir robe, and I was raised in religion in the south.

5. The police haven't been overly aggressive in pursuing this case. It sounds to me like their agenda is arresting the people, many of whom have already confessed, for the crimes they are alleged to have committed. How it's persued after this is up to the DA(s).

This isn't just a case of he-said, she-said. There's evidence here. Much evidence. Did the people in your NC case actually confess to the crimes and point police to the evidence? That's what's happened here.

[Kelvin Mace]

143. *sigh*

Again, I do not understand why you have chosen take this attitude with me.

One fellow in the NC case did in fact confess, despite the fact he was innocent. Happens quite a lot, I'm afraid.

I have asked for other article links if you have them. I am going based upon TWO articles posted in this thread.

[Maddy McCall]

176. Are your fingers disabled? *sigh* :eyes:

Go to google. Search LBN archives. Find them yourself.

It's not my duty to educate YOU on a case that you seem to know little about, yet feel it your duty to defend the pedophiles. You have talked the talk about this case, as if you are very acquainted with it. Now I see. You actually know very little about it. So, am I to assume that your reaction in this thread is grounded more in emotion than in logic?

I find it laughable that you have taken the stance that you have in this thread, based only on the two links above. Laughable. The truth has an odd way of coming to the fore.

Goodbye.

[yodermon]

101. The problem with your attitude

in this thread, Kelvin, is that just enough cases of Satanic Ritual Abuse have been proven to be bogus over the years that now, run of the mill pedophiles can use the trappings of RA/sRA to create plausible deniability for their crimes.

The "false memory foundation" types are the best friends of pedophiles, because now, all a pedo has to do is light some candles, put on some robes, chant some latin gibberish, and then proceed with the molestation in the middle of a pentagram. Then if they are ever caught & the child tells this outlandinsh story, they can be easily jump on the false-memory bandwagon.

It is downright Rovian in its evil cunning. It is a form of the "poisoned well" tactic, which Rove has mastered.

I agree that we can't come to any authoritative conclusions until we hear all the facts, but this is a discussion board, not a court of law.

[Megahurtz]

135. RIGHT ON, yodermon!!!

You DO have that that right!:thumbsup: Excellent post!

:bounce::applause::woohoo:

[Megahurtz]

114. Conviction list of Satanic Ritual abuse in U.S.:

Ha ha! You say bogus?:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

Now shove that in your pipe and smoke it.:smoke:

Kevin, Dude, I seriously think you need to get out of the woods and broaden your horizons a little.

And as I stated in another post, the guy in the case you are referring to CONFESSED!!!Hellooooo Kevin!!!:think:

How much fucking more do you need???:shrug:

[Eloriel]

204. Okay, NOW I understand

I live in NC and saw good people's lives destroyed by bogus claims of ritual abuse and organized pedophile rings.

I don't know anything about that case, really, and intend to keep it that way. HOWEVER, you are overcompensating in your caution.

[Kelvin Mace]

14. As I recall,

the FBI has never documented a single case of a child being "sacrificed" in a Black Mass.

I await ALL the evidence. While it seems that child-molestation went on, that 25 people were involved in it and it remained secret stretches credulity.

Sounds like a child molester using Satanic trapping to intimidate his victims.

[ernstbass]

120. That is also my understanding

I read that the FBI has never found any forensic evidence regarding ritual satanic abuse.

[Megahurtz]

126. FBI NEVER documented a single case???

Ha ha ha! Here it is AGAIN:

http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases2.shtml

:rofl:

[XemaSab]

16. I had that same thought

but usually in the '80s it was very, very young children being coached by Satanic abuse specialists to fabricate impossible details.

This is the actual perpetrator coming out with it, and it sounds like there's actual evidence to support his claims of satanic worship.

[Maddy McCall]

21. Yes, those charges stemmed from "recovered memories" with zero...

evidence. There's already confessions from the perps and evidence in THIS case.

Comparing the "satanic" sex cases of the 80s to this case is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Kelvin Mace]

26. Not all were "recovered memory" cases

[Maddy McCall]

47. The most media-sensational were.

Healthy skepticism is one thing. Denial is not healthy.

[Kelvin Mace]

50. I "deny" nothing

I will not try the case without seeing the evidence. We have the press accounts of police claims of what happens. Why do the police suddenly become pillars of honesty (despite all our past experience) just because the crime is child sexual abuse?

[Megahurtz]

110. The guy confessed!!!

HELLO!!!:think:

[fishnfla]

160. Kelvin here is implying it was "coerced"

or the cops are lying about the confession.

[Maddy McCall]

166. The preacher voluntarily walked into the police station and confessed.

The woman in Ohio voluntarily called the police and told them where to find the evidence.

Doesn't sound like coersion to me--but I'm sure he'll find someway to bend it so that, in some wild, outlandish way, it COULD be coersion.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

39. It's probably where

these people got the idea from, frankly.

Sad.

[patcox2]

45. fear-mongering law enforcement cult, more like it.

There are fundamentalist law enforcement groups which pushed the satanic ritual abuse myth very hard, self-appointed "experts" in satanic abuse gave lectures at law enforcement conventions and travelled around the country "training" local police departments in detecting these fictional groups.

I am sceptical of these things. The hysterias of the 80s have left me very cynical about these things.

[Maddy McCall]

52. Black robes, pentagrams on the church floor, cat blood, but..

it COULDN'T be cult activity (even though the church's doors were closed and no new members were allowed to join.)

Nah, just the fact that false charges were pressed in the 80s, and a few cops make a living by being "experts" on the subject, tells me that there's no way this could actually be a case of cult molestation of children.

Such logic. :eyes:

[patcox2]

60. We'll see the evidence when we see the evidence.

Media reports of what the police claim to have as evidence are not the same thing.

[fishwax]

77. The article you link to says it isn't clear that it was actually satanic

rituals.

<<Although Sheriff Edwards is in no doubt that some of the abusers believed they were taking part in Satanic rituals, Mr (Deputy Sheriff) Reed said it remained unclear how much they were simply paedophiles using the "trappings and symbols" of Satanism.>>

[Maddy McCall]

80. I'm not SAYING that it was "Satanic." I agree with another poster...

that the "satanism" part of the molestation and other sex acts could have been a way to inculcate and intimidate the children.

I do believe that there was a group of adults in Ponchatoula borrowing "Satanic rituals" (or what they conceived to be "satanic rituals") as tools in the molestation of a group of children.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

102. If the satanism hadn't been brought into this people would not be so leery

I personally view it as an aside. Whatever was taking place there was probably some type of manipulation where the "satanism" was used to induce fear and keep people quiet. Period.

The only part of this that leads me to speculate that there is some validity are the confessions that were given without impunity. Also the fact that these confessions weren't solicited but offered freely.

It's an odd case and one where you can't help but hope only a fraction of what is being implied is true.

[Frederik]

96. So Dan Rather's document

being fake proves that Bush never did anything wrong?

[Megahurtz]

190. "Fictional Groups" Ha!

Oh I know! Nothing like this could ever happen in America!::sarcasm:

http://www.konformist.com/vault/sra.htm

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

9. One count of a crime against nature, relating to a poodle...

I ain't saying nothing. Nothing, I tell you.

[Frederik]

15. "Deliverance"...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

19. I'm glad you said it...

[XemaSab]

23. No comment

He said: "They wanted to baptise their children in my creek. I said: 'You can't do that. There's gators in there.' "

[Maddy McCall]

24. I'll comment.

Almost all creeks, rivers, and lakes in this part of the south are indeed inhabited by gators. The man who told the preacher NO was indeed looking out for the children. Too bad that no one else was.

[XemaSab]

37. It's a fact

Just seems to add to the deliverance theme to expose your children to gators in the name of the Lord.

(Not bagging on the South, just some Southerners... and trust me, there are more hicks in the town I live in in California than I ever saw in South Carolina)

[NashVegas]

38. Ain't It Just Grand

How, when supposedly religious people go bad, they get to blame it on Satan?

[Maddy McCall]

44. Satan is a christian construct.

Therefore, blaming it on satan makes perfect sense, to the fundamentalist christian mind.

If you fuck up, it's satan's fault.

[havocmom]

28. Always been sort suspicious about the morals of poodles, myself.

Seems you can find a puppy that is poodle/just about anything cross. Not too discriminating, those poodles.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

34. They're FRENCH, right?

[havocmom]

51. Nah, that's not it. All the French people I have known have been very

decent and discerning. French Basset Hounds are not total sluts either. And I have yet to see French Fries doing the nasty. Just seems to be a poodle thing, all this loose behavior.

[sce56]

18. To bad 4 the Preacher Lucky for the kids he is apparently not a member

of the Bush Crime Family or he would have gotten away scott free! See


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1800097&mesg_id=1800217

[Zorra]

30. Hopefully, they'll catch the toothless, bearded freeper hag that makes

up and sends out all those RW emails from her trailer in the swamp.

[Chovexani]

33. These are some sick ass people

And I hope they get the book thrown at them.

My only concern is that this case is going to spark a whole new SRA panic, and the conspiracy nuts are going to latch on to it to "prove" SRA is real and widespread. Then of course anyone of a non-mainstream religion will be fair game. Apples and oranges, I know (this case actually happened and there's documented proof), but I'm paranoid especially in light of that Indiana ruling. SRA nonsense contributed to a lot of heinous treatment of Wiccans back in the 80s, people losing their kids, etc. and I'd hate to see this old bogeyman trotted out for a new century.

It just seems like ever since the neocons stole the country we are just regressing more and more as a nation. It's so depressing.

[warrens]

42. relating to a poodle.

Smirk let him have a turn with Tony Blair?

[JNelson6563]

43. We are a Christian nation

:puke:

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Stranger]

71. Young Goodman Brown

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=HawYoun.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1

[In_The_Wind]

72. That's awful!

[KamaAina]

74. Next time someone vows to "take (place name) for Jesus"

be afraid. Be very afraid. :scared:

They probably won't end up drinking cat blood like this creep, but the results will be frightening nonetheless.

[aquart]

84. Some people really jump to believe bad things of others.

And then run everywhere repeating the slime until it seems like common knowledge.

Amazing the stories that get started that way, wouldn't you agree, Maddy McCall?

So did they say prayers to Satan every night at bedtime? Grace to Satan before meals? What was the theological basis of this worship of Satan? Or was this not Satanic but Christian molestation? Or was there molestation at all?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

90. Probable Cause Sufficient for Arrest Warrants Has Been Established

There is a load of evidence already described in the public record, including confessions, regarding these crimes.

The details (Satanism, etc.) remain somewhat hazy, but at its heart, there is a lot of power to this case, and what has been described is a horrible series of crimes.

They will have their day in court. But until then, I sure as hell don't mind making a few conclusions based on what we've seen. And I sure as hell am not going to try to defend these fuckers based on even less -- or no -- evidence than what's been presented so far.

Bare-ass conjecture and mistrust of the police do not equal a credible defense, much less exoneration.

DTH

[aquart]

94. Remember the Martin nursery?

I mean, if hysteria suits you, fine. When people tell me that Christians are practicing Satanism, I need to ask the tenets of the religion, the specific rituals, the form of prayer, the holidays, the food restrictions. I need to see the basis of a religion.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I'm looking at hysterical fundamentalists who have whipped themselves (and, obviously, credulous others) into a frenzy.

It's good of you to presume guilt on hearsay.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

98. Recovered Memory Does Not Equal Current Confessions and Hard Evidence

Apples and oranges. And I'll have you know that when I read the evidence that has been reported, it looks like a solid case, and no "hysteria" is necessary for me to come to that conclusion, all Satanism aside.

DTH

[aquart]

225. So they were Satanists?

Which would be described as what?

[Megahurtz]

191. "Hysteria" is another buzzword

that the pedophiles and their Defense Attorneys use to discredit the validity of child sexual abuse.

I wouldn't use this term so freely if I were you, until I decided if it was appropriate or not, after studying the background of how the buzzword "hysteria" was coined in the first place.:hi:

[Frederik]

130. The satanism part isn't the important thing here

Their rationale for donning black cloaks and drink cat blood is anybody's guess. But it's not we who "jump to believe bad things", the police claim to have quite a lot of evidence and there are confessions. No one is proven guilty in a court of law, but this isn't a court of law is it.

[theearthisround]

97. The abuse victims ranged in age from 1 to 16. Perhaps panic is in order...

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/bizarre/3201692

"The abuse victims ranged in age from 1 to 16, the police said. Sheriff Daniel H. Edwards of Tangipahoa said that as many as 25 children might have been involved in sex acts at the youth center, in cars and in the homes of at least two of those charged."

Nothing to see here folks, just the ravings of conspiracy theorists...
http://www.voxfux.com/features/bush_child_sex_coverup/franklin.htm
http://www.thelawparty.com/FranklinCoverup/WashingtonTimes.htm
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/globalist_sex_trade.html

[Im_Your_Huckleberry]

99. nice.

[MrSlayer]

103. These guys are not Satanists and I hope they get the Death Penalty.

I'm glad to see Louisiana has child rape as a capital offense, no one deserves it more than pedos. These people are also not Satanists, they are a sick cult. Satanism does not promote child abuse or animal sacrifices.

[Chicago Democrat]

129. Really? Is there a "nice" Satanism?

That's really news to me.


My personal experiences have been exclusively of the "Rosemarie's Baby" type.


Spiritually my communications with the Dark Lord have been arms legnth, while I respect what He does, I can't understand worshipping Him. In my view, Hell, Satan and Deamons are all about correction.

[aneerkoinos]

139. Yes

The Satanists (LaVeyan) I've had discussions with, are mostly quite nice and intelligent people.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

[Chicago Democrat]

177. LaVey's 'organization' is not the serious follower

Its not the true believers. Look its all a matter of definition.


What's true? What's serious? What's legitimate? Sure they have a newsletter and a website and I think the mansion is there or did they sell that? I recall some items for sale recently. Probably nice people and 'intelligent'. But are they Satanists and what is a Satanist?


What the hell are we talking about? I am talking about Evil with a Capitol "E". Frankly unless you kill animals Satan doesn't love you. Sexual sacrifices and yes even human sacrifices. All the ones I have had the misfortune to know of were involved with major drug addictions too. When they start sacrificing people, you can be guaranteed they don't have a website! Oh the stories...Usually involved in law enforcement or judges. Basically the Satanist who is 'serious' is a very evil person and likes it that way. Those to me are the ones that are literally bringing Satan's world to the earth. Think of a prison. Perfect job for a 'real Satanist'.


LaVey lucky to get to the 2nd ring of Hell.

[aneerkoinos]

184. Definitions

To my understanding, it has become customary to make distinction between Satanists, which is a legit LaVeyan religion (or rather religions) with some affinity to Left Hand Path and don't define themselves by any Christian terms; and Satan Worshippers, which are groups and individual that define themselves in Christian terms (anti-).

[Chicago Democrat]

192. That's it! very well put

:evilgrin:

[MrSlayer]

195. Satanists don't even believe in Satan.

LaVey's Satanism is the only "real" Satanism and it has nothing to do with sacrificing animals, raping kids or any of that nonsense. Satanism is humanism with some fun rituals, it's self worship.

[Minstrel Boy]

196. "LaVey's Satanism is the only 'real' Satanism"?

Come on. LaVey's Church wasn't organized until the 1960s. How old a concept is Satan?

There was a huge rift in the mid-70s when Michael Aquino led LaVey's priesthood and many followers out of the Church to form the Temple of Set. LaVey wasn't serious enough for them.

[MrSlayer]

198. Yes, I realize this.

I suppose there are as many ways to worship Satan as there are any other god, demi-god, demon or whatever but I think LaVey captured the true spirit of it all in his philosophy. The Temple of Set began to believe the hype and lost sight of the truth. I consider LaVey's philosophy to be the official Satanism because it makes the most sense. There is no point in sacrificing animals or virgins or whatever because there is nothing to sacrifice them to. That's his point.

[Trigger Hippie]

112. Ich.

I'm originally from Louisiana and as much as I love my people, this does not surprise me. That area of the state is a creeeeepy place. Very ignorant and bigoted. That's a shocker, huh?

[Maddy McCall]

188. Hi, BushIsAPooHead

Welcome to DU. :hi:

I'm from very near there, myself. You're gauge of people there is pretty correct--but there are some good folks in the area.

[Chicago Democrat]

119. Satanists are real.

(Personal experience here, don't make me get into it please)


Let me just say that true Satanists are very very very very dangerous. Any "Satanist" you actually hear about is not really a "true Satanist".

[CoffeeCat]

123. This entire conversation depresses me...

I was sexually abused and was part of some kind of organized child-sex ring. I know that my photograph was taken during these acts, and I know that I was taken out of my bedroom at night to various locations. I also known that I was severely punished for "telling."

My memory is quite sketchy.

I have absolutely no proof of anything. All I have is my sketchy memory--and some circumstantial evidence.

I understand that people are innocent until proven guilty. However, how is a survivor of sexual abuse that happened (sometimes) decades ago, supposed to provide evidence? What evidence would I have?

I confronted one perp and he denied. What can I expect, that child molesters would be truthful about their actions?

So many on this board become hysterical when organized child-sex crimes are exposed. They protect the alleged perpetrators--almost to the point of defending these crimes. If children come forward--and they are met with disbelief, doubt and skepticism that favors the perpetrators--think about how that affects the victims.

For every person who has been wrongfully accused of a organized child-sex crimes--I'll bet there are thousands of victims who remain silent and NEVER come forward--because they are chastised and scrutinized when they finally decide to make the perps accountable.

I've met hundreds of survivors--through on-line and real-life support groups. I would guess that 10 have come forward and reported their crimes. Children do not report sex crimes. They don't understand that they've been raped. Perps are expertly skilled at terrifying the victim into silence or convincing the victim that telling equals death. I was dumped in a landfill when I told. I was also screamed at and beaten for an entire evening--and told that my entire family would die if I ever opened my mouth again.

I've been in therapy for three years. Coming forward and reporting what happened to me--will entail fighting the disbelief and the denial that our society is in about the epidemic of child sex abuse.

Silence and denial only help the perps.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

127. Thank You for Your Post

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation, and I hope that you will find some measure of justice and/or peace.

It would be really great if everyone read your post, and got some much needed perspective. Thanks again.

DTH

[CoffeeCat]

137. Thanks so much DoveTurnedHawk---

You are so sweet and I appreciate your words of support.

I'm doing very well--and working to get that peace and justice.

I consider myself extremely lucky. Despite what I went through--I have access to great health care and superb therapists. I'm grateful for all of the resources I have now--and I hope I can someday help other survivors.

Thanks again for your kinds words! :)

[Barrett808]

144. I'm curious: How pervasive is this organized child-rape phenomenon?

Some conspiracy theorists claim that some child-rape rings are organized at the very highest levels of government. We hear dark rumors of military officers and heads of state participating. I once knew a woman who claimed she had been used this way by NY mobsters -- she said she even had lunch with Roy Cohn.

Or do these things arise spontaneously?

[Minstrel Boy]

141. There is no defense against an evil which

only the victims and the perpetrators know exist.

Victims deserve better. And on this board, too.

[Eloriel]

205. Amen. And never forget: SILENCE CONDONES.

Also: BELIEVE THE CHILDREN. As I said upthread, that's what they need first and foremost, and then they need lots and lots of therapy.

[KittyWampus]

154. You Have My Support. I Posted A Link To A Site With Great Info On

things like Recovered Memory etc.

It DOES happen. People DO repress memories which emerge later.

Just because a few kids were manipulated doesn't mean all kids are not credible.

Indeed, it's sickening to see so many Lefties side with abusers.

[CoffeeCat]

171. I have "repressed memories" and I'm damn proud of it!

Thanks cryingshame...the more people who become enlightened about the truth of repressed memories--the better.

When someone says, "I believe you" to a survivor, it is incredibly healing. So, thanks.

And to these "False Memory Syndrome" people--I will not apologize for how I coped as a child! These FMSers want to discredit those who have delayed recall of traumatic events--but they're wrong and misguided. I'm proud of how my mind protected me as a child. Forgetting was my only choice, and I suppose--the only reason I remained strong and able to function. I won't feel bad because of how I coped with being raped as a child! I won't let these "False Memory" charlatans do that to me.

And where was this "False Memory Syndrome" during the 1960's and 1970's when Vietnam Vets were being treated for repressed memories? Many Vets returned with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and had delayed recall of many traumatic war events. They forgot, then remembered when they were safe at home. No one cared about repressed memories then. No one questioned the Vets--and if their memories were accurate. No one put a Vet into a room and said, "Are you SURE Sergeant Dave...did you really see a man with a hand grenade running over a hill? Can you really be sure?" However, when children start coming forward and demanding accountability for sex crimes perpetrated on them---look who shows up--a group that says repressed memories don't exist. They demand that children have proof and evidence. This is preposterous! Why are we allowing this horrible group to do this to children that have the courage to come forward!

It's obvious--their motivations are to discredit survivors and to give aid and comfort to child molesters.

I know that repressed memories are true because I recovered a memory that involved a sex act with someone. I NEVER remembered this happening. I called this person, and he verified the memory--and also filled in other details.

Also, kids can be manipulated into believing things--but that has nothing to do with recovering memories from decades ago. I've read the research from the "FMS"--in which psychologists convinced children that they had been lost in a mall. Yes, kids are impressionable. However, I'm an adult. I'm remembering things that happened to me as a child--but what on God's green Earth does this have to do with children being easily persuaded???

They're comparing apples and hockey pucks.

The "research" these "FMS" charlatans use--is totally unrelated to repressed, traumatic memories.

The organization was founded by an alcoholic man who was accused of sexual abuse by his own daughter. This man was also sexually abused as a child. Nice group of people, eh? Also, when the founder of the group was asked to list the symptoms of "False Memory Syndrome" they could not come up with any. "FMS" is a concocted, unscientific, unsubstantiated term. These people make oodles of money testifying for alleged perpetrators at trials. They are not credible. They NEVER address the instances (like mine) where memories were buried, then later recalled and substantiated--by a witness or by a perp admitting to the crimes. They're destructive because they provide safe haven for pedophiles and a stage on which serial child molesters can get sympathy and play the victim.

I began having flashbacks, and they continued like wildfire for a year--before I sought the help of a therapist. No therapist tricked me or talked me into ANYTHING. I accounted what I was remembering and they listened. I switched therapists three times--because I didn't want to believe what I was remembering.

Facing the truth was difficult--just as it's difficult for society to face the epidemic of child sexual abuse.

[theearthisround]

183. Very powerful... This type of stuff pierces my heart like nothing else...

I'm not a guy who cries much, in fact I don't ever really cry... but this stuff always brings tears to my eyes...
Most people are good hearted... so they believe others are too... Unconciously they understand there is all this evil in the world, but on a concious level they don't want to acknowledge it... If we are to bring this evil to justice people need to understand, Now, there is an epidemic of child-abuse in this country. We have organized child-sex rings abusing the most innocent of us... I find if you just Stop, and listen carefully to your unconcious mind telling you whats true, you can hear that inner voice in your head telling you the truth... and begin to understand, Now, that you can make a difference in this world and help these children by speaking out against this evil...

[MetalFingersDOOM]

128. Probably a Skull & Bones Initiation Ritual. -nt-

[aneerkoinos]

136. Not Satanists

In the most correct meaning of Satanists of LaVeyan Church of Satan and affiliates. LaVey's Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth explicitely forbid harming little children:

9. Do not harm little children.
http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

Of course, any deranged psychopath cultist can claim to be a Devil Worshipper, but that don't make them Satanists.

[CoffeeCat]

156. Just a guess--I wonder if child molesters use "Satanism" to invalidate...

...their victims.

After all, if a child comes forward and says, "Someone dressed in a black robe took me from my room, forced me to drink cat's blood, and then did x,y,z"--many will automatically doubt the child's story. If the police do believe it--or if there is proof--many in society will be waiting in the wings to chastise the child, as they recall the times that adults have been wrongfully accused.

To avoid prosecution, all a child molester has to do is bring along some pentagrams and a devil mask. This would ensure that the child would never be believed.

My therapist told me that one of his clients came forward, as a child, and said that Mickey Mouse molested her. Of course, no one believed this child. Several years later, other children on the block were making the same outlandish comments to their parents. It turns out, there was a serial pedophile in the neighborhood. He ran a daycare out of his home and was a trusted member of the community. When he was alone with these children and molesting--he wore a Mickey Mouse costume--for the express purpose of confusing the children and rendering their accounts implausible.

NEVER, EVER underestimate the evil lengths these child molesters will go to protect their secrets. Think about it--if a man would slide in bed with a child, rape her (or him) and have absolutely no empathy or sensitivity for the fact that he's ripping out this child's soul--we can't be shocked to discover the heinous ways in which these people cover their crimes.

From most survivor accounts that I've heard--the silencing techniques are just as traumatizing as the sexual abuse itself.

[Janice325]

214. Thanks, TwoSparkles

As a survivor myself, I appreciate your posts on this thread. Most people have no idea what it's like.

[bloom]

185. Regardless

of Satanic "rules" - I would be skeptical of the whole Satanic angle.

[aneerkoinos]

193. Why?

The Satanists I've had discussions with in various religious and occult forums are OK types, very sane compared to Xian fundies. At least they make genuine effort not to be hypocrites, close minded and stupid, even if I find that religion too individualistic and materialistic to my taste - too capitalistic and "American".

Not to be mixed up with Satan Worshippers, see my post above.

[bloom]

194. I haven't known

any Satanists - Wiccans, but not Satanists.

I suppose they could be Satanists running a Christian Church - but I would tend to agree with post 158 (below) - or not necessarily that it was planted as much as the people involved could make Satanists look bad and keep the "Christian Church" looking clean.

But I don't know - I would need more information. It is practically like the Satanic people would be on trial - like is this part of their deal or not.


(Meant to reply to #193)

[aneerkoinos]

220. More info

Here's a FAQ in process:
http://occultforums.com/showthread.php?t=15326

You can check the discussions too, to get a feeling what these guys are about. Personally I find them quite boring.

Wiccan's have their "Horned God" of virility too, and IIRC some wiccans call it by name Satan, more often by other names. And this does not mean Wicca would have much common with Satanism, they are very different religions (even though good old Alistair Crowley has influenced both).

If there's truth to this story, and this was indeed a ring of Reverse Christians, it's better to call them that or "Satan Worshippers", and leave Satanists alone, so that their religion "would not be oon trial".

[patcox2]

158. This was the pastor of a christian church, it all happened in the church.

Why is there any discussion of "satanists?" This was a plain old fashioned christian pedophile ring. I would not put it past the authorities to plant the satanist stuff just to divert from the fact that this was a christian church and its congregation members.

[Maddy McCall]

170. Yeah, and they probably planted semen stains on the robes, too.

But, hey, it's pretty common for church members to wear black hooded robes and masturbate in the choir loft. All innocent.

:eyes:

How bout this. I wouldn't put it past the pedophiles to plant satanism to discount the claims of the children. "Oh it's satanic, therefore it's bullshit."

Occam's Razor. Pretty decent theory. Usually applies.

[Minstrel Boy]

189. pentagrams, black robes, cat's blood - what's this tell you?

Yes, there are "Christian" paedophiles. But these people were practicing Satanists using the cover of a church.

From an earlier story:

Tangipahoa Parish Sheriff Daniel Edwards said Friday that members of a Ponchatoula church cult accused of sexually abusing children and animals told detectives they carried out the practices for years as part of a devil-worshipping ritual involving cat blood.

"This is hard to talk about and harder to believe, but some of the suspects have told us their intention in all of this was devil worshipping," Edwards said.

[Bluebear]

206. "Hosanna Church" . . .what is so "Satanist" about that?

The PR machine in big spin.

[NawlinsNed]

208. This was not a Christian Pastor

Louis Lamonica Sr. founded the Hosanna Church as a Christian fellowship church. When he fell ill and died, another pastor took over the church and kept it running as a Christian fellowship church.

Louis Lamonica Jr. wasn't a churchgoing fellow. He never took part in the services in the church and never had much of an interest in either his father or in attending the church, but a few years after his father died, he suddenly decided that he was going to take over his father's church, after all, he inherited the place.

He started doing wierd things during services and eventually drove off the church membership. Some of them now attend the former pastor's church. Then he started holding invite-only services with people who weren't formerly associated with his father's church. From the reports in the area, it looks like they had done quite a bit of renovation to the place very recently, probably with the money of all the pedophiles who started visiting the place.

[Lars39]

213. That's interesting.

Always wondered how little cults get started. I'm almost afraid to ask,
but what kind of weird things drove off the regular members?

[NawlinsNed]

215. Well,

Not following the services as they had been done for decades was one part of it. Apparently this guy started instituting all kinds of wierd rules, and when he started having invite-only services with people who were not members of the regular church, his congregation went elsewhere.

This is all info I'm getting from the local news stations, which have a long history of excellent investigative journalism.

[Lars39]

221. I understand;

it's great when you have local news coverage that seems to be on the ball.
And a belated Welcome to DU, NawlinsNed! :toast:

[okieinpain]

182. He said: "They wanted to baptise their children in my creek"

"I said: 'You can't do that. There's gators in there.' "

[buddysmellgood]

201. Anyone want to redefine terrorist? eom

[kineneb]

209. I really feel sorry for the dog...

It could not object, nor can it testify. When I read this article, my thought was..."no one would ever believe this in a work of fiction."

Hope the kids get therapy, they are going to need it.

[RaulGroom]

216. Stop Attacking Each Other

Attack me. I see a lot of people urging caution, others decrying the heinousness of these crimes. There is no reason for such people to fight.

There is good reason, however, for the people who believe that this happened to attack someone who says what I am about to say. So I respectfully ask that DoveTurnedHawk and others direct their vitriol toward me, who deserves it.

This probably did not happen.

This is not to say there may not be some abuse at the bottom of all this. It certainly would not be the first time charges like these sprung up in a case where actual abuse occurred.

That said, there are a lot of red flags here.

First of all, the police are doing their jobs. If this guy walked into a police station and started confessing to horrible crimes, it's their job to investigate and to go after the people he says are his accomplices.

However, from the perspective of someone who has spent a lot of time studying abuse cases, both real and imaginary abuse, this has too many characteristics of the imaginary ones and not enough characteristics of real ones.

Here's the first red flag - child sex abuse cases that are initiated based on something other than a victim's complaint often spin out of control before a good framework is established for what may have really happened. Such cases are truly tragic because in cases where there clearly was some abuse, it becomes impossible to hold the perpetrators to account because in court the prosecution has to prove its case, not just that "something happened." I have a feeling that may be happening here.

Thus those of you who are swallowing the whole story, without skepticism, should take a step back and realize that you may well be contributing to a phenomenon that will make it less likely, not more likely, that the abusers will face justice. This may help you understand, DTH, why someone like me who has no affinity for bullies of any kind, least of all child molesters, feels the need to urge caution in such a case.

I will tell you, based on intuition and on my knowledge of cases with a lot of similarities to this one, that the central figure in all of this is probably guilty of abusing children. At the very least he is seriously mentally unbalanced, and therefore could have done practically anything.

Everyone else caught up in the case is probably (not definitely, but probably) completely innocent. They have been arrested properly, having been accused of a heinous crime. They will probably all be acquitted, hopefully except for the central figure. But again, the greater the buildup of hysteria, the greater the likelihood that the real crimes underneath the hysteria may go unpunished.

The discussion on this thread is, as a poster noted, not very constructive (though I have to say it's nowhere near the nastiest DU thread I've seen.) Thus I won't be returning to defend this post in any way.

I will say, though, that in three months we will probably know a lot more about this case. I will post a thread in GD apologizing if the need arises, and requesting an apology if I feel I am owed one.

Have at it.

[Minstrel Boy]

223. S.M.A.R.T. ritual abuse newsletter

Good info and links here for those who want to understand the phenomenon, and its frequent exploitation by mind control programmers:

http://members.aol.com/smartnews/index2.html

"The purpose of S.M.A.R.T. is to help stop ritual abuse and to help those who have been ritually abused. We work toward this goal by disseminating information on the possible connections between secretive organizations, ritual abuse, and mind control, by encouraging healing from the extensive damage done by ritual abuse and mind control, and by encouraging survivors to network."

[gate of the sun]

236. hey this article is just to fuel the Christians

rape is rape and it has nothing to do with religion hey let's not forget those priests of the godly catholic church.....but people forget that and start saying oh it's those Satanists......please I don't even believe in Satan......they seem to be on par in action just like those Catholic holy men.......please.