US "Fireballs" Threaten Iraqi Flora (collective punishment)

[Barrett808]

US "Fireballs" Threaten Iraqi Flora
The Apaches have become a nightmare for Iraqi farmers and villagers.
By Samir Haddad, IOL Correspondent

BAGHDAD, June 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – US Apache helicopters have become a nightmare for Iraqi farmers and villagers who had thousands of acres of their farmlands destroyed by the flash bombs poured on them almost every day.

“These damned Apaches daily fire their flash bombs, burning vast swathes of land,” Abu Mohammad, who owns a farmland near the northern city of Mosul, told IslamOnline.net.

“These bombs remain glowing as they are fired from low altitude with date palms taking the brunt.”

He said the fireballs, as Iraqis call them, have burnt and razed thousands of donums of malt and wheat in his Rabiea village.

(more)

http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2005-06/04/article05.shtml

[expatriot]

1. we lost their hearts and minds.... now we are after their stomachs.....

burn their crops!

[leftchick]

2. defoliants again?

:(

[Xithras]

15. Nope, flares.

The helicopters drop flares when hunting people at night. Those flares hit the ground and, since most of the country is dry by this time of year, start fires.

I doubt it's a deliberate action...more of a symptom of not caring. They get so focused on "getting the bad guys" that peripheral damage doesn't even occur to them.

[leftchick]

19. thank you for the clarification

I always expect the worst from the USA these days. :(

[Up2Late]

27. Ya know, I could understand anti-IR missile flairs, but why the HELL

is the so-called "Most advanced Military in the world" dropping flairs on Farmers fields (1940's technology) from a supposedly high-tech Apache Gunships, when U.S. Law enforcement have FLIR (Forward Looking InfraRed) cameras on the front of Police Helicopters for the same purpose (like the LAPD) that is 100 times more effective, AND it doesn't PISS-OFF the Poor Iraqi Farmers, the people we are suppose to be bringing "Freedom and Liberty" to?



FLIR technology has been around for at least 10, but more like 15-20 years.:mad:

[Karmakaze]

37. Actually, IR systems have been in use for over 30 years.

They were first used in combat during the Vietnam war.

[jmowreader]

3. Ah hah--I see the US strategy now

We have obviously decided that violating the ENTIRE Geneva Convention is how we're going to prosecute our wars from now on.

[shanti]

6. i feel such shame

for the death and destruction that * is doing to the world in the name of the united states of america :cry:

[Eloriel]

40. I'm sorry, but

that just made me chuckle.

This is such a heartbreaking story -- but I had to chuckle. SO DAMN TRUE, too.

[Benhurst]

4. We have met the Evil Empire

and it is us.

[shanti]

9. yes

we are BABYLON.

[Bill Segundo]

5. Islam online

Lots of interesting stuff on their discussion board. Discussion of arranged marriage, finding a spouse online, and of course the US and Israel being the source of all their problems.

They do seem to have totally forgotten how many times in the last few years we've intervened for Muslims and how much we pay toward their support.

[Occulus]

7. Yeah, I'm sure their children will thank us.

The ones that live with all their limbs intact, that is. :eyes:

[movonne]

8. You have got to be kidding....tell me what we have done to support the

Muslims...and does it out weigh our destruction of their lands...

[leftchick]

10. and the destruction of their homes and their people

Lordy, what's not to love?

[Bill Segundo]

12. No more fossil fuels.

They can't even pump their own oil to this day. We are the biggest donor to the Pals, have freed the Kuwaitis, stopped slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia and Kosavo and Lord knows without us buying their oil for decades they wouldn't have even the trust fund economies they have now.

What outweighs what is for each to decide. UN sanctions were killing 5000 Iraqis a month and allowing the socialist economy and it's infrastructure to slowly collapse.

Personally I'd assume spend massive amounts to move from oil use and let them all survive without a penny from us. Solar power in the west, wind and tide on the coasts, hydroelectric on the rivers and nuclear where nothing else will work.

[Lerkfish]

22. I think you may have one good point in there:

to reduce our dependence on oil.

othewise, I'd say you've mistakenly wandered into the wrong forum.
Try educating yourself on the welfare of Iraqis before and after our invasion and illegal occupation. You might be surprised. Drudge and Rush won't tell you the truth about that, you have to look for other sources.

[Mika]

23. You forgot the Depleted Uranium we "gave" them (in Iraq, Kuwait, Kosovo)

All praises to the USA

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

[daleo]

20. "We" seem to pay their support by invading them.

It isn't a popular currency with local populations, though.

[Lerkfish]

21. oh, man... if you are able, put yourself in their shoes...

we are slaughtering their children, torturing the detainees who've committed no crimes, destroyed their infrastructure, and made their entire country unsafe.

can you, even for a minute, put yourself in their shoes and see how you would view the US?

but it really doesn't matter...whether you have that empathic ability or not, it doesnt change the fact that we are breeding extreme hatred and fueling the bitter need for revenge in these people, who, by the way, did not attack us.

[Zhade]

25. Cowardly freepers don't know how to feel empathy.

Don't waste your time.

[Up2Late]

29. I agree with you, I'm not even going to bother with that...

...Troll. Here's a great (recent) example of what you're talking about:

Iraqi Children Pay the Price of "Freedom"

Iraqi children are paying the price for the occupation.



By Saleh Amer, IOL Correspondent

MOSUL, February 22, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – Almost two years after the US-led forces occupied Iraq, the children of the northern city of Mosul have united in grief and need, working around the clock to help provide for their one-time well-to-do families, who are now living below the poverty line.

“I have dropped out of school and I’m now selling plastic bags in the city’s market to make ends meet,” eight-year-old Jamal Mohammad told IslamOnline.net Tuesday, February 22. Jamal’s father was an army officer, but he has not returned home since the US-led invasion-turned-occupation of the Arab country. “I have become the breadwinner of my four-member family and I have to work hard for them. There is no time to play,” Jamal added as he was in a tearing hurry.

Hassan Omar, 11, is selling fuel with his younger brother at double the regular price at fuel stations. “Every day, my brother and I rotationally buy fuel from stations and sell them at sidewalks,” said Omar whose father and elder brother were detained by US occupation troops seven months ago.

Hassan Ali, 10, is no better than the others. He is forced to work as mechanic’s apprentice in Al-Karama industrial district. “My father was shot dead by US occupation forces one year ago and I have no other option but to work at this workshop for fixing cars,” Ali told IOL after an exhausting 14-hour workday.
(more at link above)

[Igel]

11. I can't tell if they're talking about a

device to illuminate an area at night, or a kind of tracer round that explodes upon impact to illuminate the target.

Could be a defoliant, but not a very efficient one.

[Karmakaze]

13. I know what these "fireballs" are... missile defence flares

The resistence has a large supply of sophisticated heat-seeking man-portable anti-aircraft missiles.

Remember the Birtish C-130 that was hit with at least 5 heat seeking missiles, totally destroying it? Well, that shows just how many of these missiles the resistance has - if they were rare they certainly wouldnt be firing them in such large numbers at a single aircraft.

This also highlights the fact that many helicopter and aircraft losses may in fact have been due to such missiles rather than the array of "accidents" the Pentagon claims them to be.

So low flying helicopters in areas likely to be resistence occupied territory would use these magnesium flares to try to defend against such heat-seeking missiles. If the helicopter is flying low enough, these flares may hit the ground while still burning.

Here is an example of these flares fired from a Cobra attack helicopter:

[Barrett808]

14. Fascinating -- and welcome to DU, Karmakaze

Thanks for the informative post.

[Karmakaze]

16. Thanks for the welcome!

:hi:

Editted to add:

The article quotes a farmer suggesting that these flares are being used to find resistence fighters at night. This of course is highly unlikely because the big advantage of Apaches and other high tech US aircraft is that they can operate at night just as well as during the day, possibly even better, thanks to equipment such as infrared cameras.

In fact I believe they boast "We own the night!"

So not only do they not need flares to find people in the dark, in fact flares give away the helicopter's position because they are extremly visible.

So for these helicopters to be firing flares at night it can only mean one thing - they are more afraid of heat-seeking missiles than they are of giving away their position (weapons aimed by sight are more effective when you can see the target, of course), or of compromising their night vision equipment.

In other words, these flares are only fired when survival of the helicopter and its crew depend on it.

[Xithras]

17. They fire flares for illumination too.

Spotlights are too directional, and the flares cast a bright omnidirectional light.

[Karmakaze]

18. They dont need to - Infrared cameras are far more effective...

and do not compromise the safety of the aircraft, which a flare will do in terms of weapons aimed by sight.

So flares are only fired when the risk of compromise is far outweighed by the risk of being struck by a heat seeking missile.

Here is why flares are not needed:

[Mika]

24. Yeah, we can blow people up 24/7 at will

All praise be to America

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

[0007]

31. Thanks for the insight

[Zhade]

26. Great stuff, thanks for the post.

I already welcomed you, but...welcome to DU, again!

[Up2Late]

28. I'm NOT saying you're wrong, that was my first thought too, but...

if these ARE anti-IR Flairs, we need to re-train the pilots or give them new "rules of engagement," because if they are so low that these hit the ground, they are flying too low for these flairs to be an effective counter measures.

They would be well with in the range of small arms fire, which could be why we've lost around 25 Helicopters in this War on Iraq.

These are exactly the questions I'd like answered, but without pressure on the Rummy, we'll never get those answers.

[Karmakaze]

33. Yes I also considered that...

but I am also aware that modern anti-missile systems are usually automated to ensure fast enough response times, so it is quite possible these flares are fired when the system detects a threat, which could be a false alarm.

For aircraft like the Apache, small arms fire is far less of a concern than guided missile fire. Flying higher makes you MORE susceptible to missiles and thus more likely to be shot down. That is why the C-130 that was shot down was flying so low (I believe it was said to be flying at around 150 feet AGL).

However what we are seeing is the result of the "lesser of two evils" calculation - Fly higher and visially sighted small arms loses its effectiveness but puts you right in the missile kill zone, fly lower and you increase missile survivability while decreasing small arms survivability.

[oblivious]

32. Can you tell us more about these missiles?

For example, do they compare at all with the Stinger missiles that the US gave to Al-qaeda and the Taliban to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the 80s?

I understand that these stingers won the war since they made Afghanistan basically a no-fly zone.

[Karmakaze]

35. Well it depends on your biases, but...

it is likely that the modern MANPAD (MAN Portable Air Defence) missiles in use in Iraq are every bit as effective as the first generation Stinger, if not more so.

The resistence is most likely armed with a significant supply of SA-14 Strela-3 missiles, or at worst the SA-7 Strela-2. These missiles are most effective against helicopters but can also target low flying fixed wing aircraft.

Some good information regarding these weapons can be found at GlobalSecurity.org

[Patty Diana]

30. Fallujah offensive was collective punishment

link http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0423-12.htm also back in 2003 it was reported and i saw pictures of our troops razing palms, saying they were looking for terrorists. It's a bushco tactic to demoralize the population It's a blatant violation of those pesky Geneva Conventions

[Roland99]

34. A bit more (from Riverbend) on how much palm trees are revered in Iraq

Monday, October 13, 2003
http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#106599843493603927

Palm trees are often planted alongside citrus trees in orchards for more than just decoration or economy. Palm trees tower above all other trees and provide shade for citrus trees, which whither under the Iraqi sun. Depending on the type, it takes some palm trees an average of 5 – 10 years to reach their final height (some never actually stop growing), and it takes an average of 5 -7 years for most palms to bear fruit.

The death of a palm tree is taken very seriously. Farmers consider it devastating and take the loss very personally. Each tree is so unique, it feels like a member of the family... I remember watching scenes from the war a couple of days after the bombing began- one image that stuck in my mind was that of a palm tree broken in half, the majestic fronds wilting and dragging on the ground. The sight affected me almost as much as the corpses.

Historically, palm trees have represented the rugged, stoic beauty of Iraq and its people. They are a reminder that no matter how difficult the circumstances, there is hope for life and productivity. The palm trees in the orchards have always stood lofty and resolute- oblivious of heat, political strife or war… until today.

[Cha]

36. Growing crops

is hard enough; dealing with the elements, without some "fireball" raging over your land!! :nuke:

[jokerman93]

38. Scorched Earth

If I didn't know better, it might appear that Booshco is using biblical methods to crush the conquered people into permanent submission.

It would only take a season or two to ruin the harvests indefinitely.

I believe this may be intentional actually.

At what point do our actions in Iraq become genocide/culturecide?

[NNN0LHI]

39. We had to burn the village down to save it

:patriot: