Pit bull mauls and kills boy in California

[RebelOne]

Just read this on CNN. I did a search and did not see any other posts on it.

When will this ever stop? The media always jumps on these stories when it involves a pit bull or Rottweiler. I'm sure that mutts have mauled people, but you don't read about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/04/dog.maul.ap/index.html

[MnFats]

1. well...pit bulls and rotweillers are such powerfully built dogs...

...that when they attack they can do incredible injury in just a few seconds....

it is true that the upbringing & training makes all the difference, but kids (or anybody else) who get bitten by, say, a springer spaniel aren't going to get hurt so badly...

[RebelOne]

3. I have owned both pit bulls and Rottweilers.

My 96-pound pit bull was a love. I have a sweetheart of a Rottie now. As you say, the upbringing and training does makes all the difference. But there are owners who think it is cool to make their dogs aggressive.

[AlCzervik]

5. my friend had a rottie named Sherman after the tank

and was a wonderful dog, he was huge but he was a sweetheart. She has a nephew and Sherman was never aggressive with him at all, also the baby and Sherman were never left alone together.

[MzShellG]

18. I often wondered...

If pit bulls and rotties could be gentle or regular pets, if they arent trained to be mean. I know of people who hit their pitt bulls in the face and kick them to make them mean. I hate to see that. Why are they built so strong and muscular, anyway?

[AlCzervik]

19. i think you could turn almost any dog mean based on how you treat them

theres a guy who lives on the street behind me and he has a golden lab, this dog is left out in the yard all the time and when the owner comes out and the dog whines or barks he yells at him and i'm almost sure he hits him, needless to say the dog is a bit mean. I've called animal control more than once and so has his neighbors, we're waiting to see what happens.

[RebelOne]

23. That person does not deserve to have a dog.

I hope the dog gets taken away from him. But the sad thing is that if the dog is aggressive and he is taken to the local animal shelter, he will be put down.

[AlCzervik]

25. you can see the proble, when i called animal control and talked to

the 1 officer our city had i pleaded with him not to let him get put down, the officer said there really isn't a lot that can be done ib cases like this. I'm gonna feel awful if they put him down but this dog is treated so bad i don't know which is worse.

[RebelOne]

26. Well, it might be better that the dog has a peaceful death

rather than living a miserable life with that idiot.

[SodoffBush]

52. Roy has asked that his cat not be killed

Here he is, receiving a kiss from one of his trusted and loving trained kitties.

[barb162]

82. This guy is a true human and humane (though he dresses like a

weirdo). That animal was scared and not trying to kill Roy

[SodoffBush]

89. The animal was reacting to instinct

just as a rottweiler or pittbull would.

[bitchkitty]

225. Disagree -

it's not humane in any sense of the word to keep wild animals in captivity for the benefit of a lot of assholes to ooo and aaah over.

[barb162]

81. you should report those motherfuckers to the police or local

animal control. That's animal abuse

[LisaL]

135. It's genetic. They were bred to do certain things. Thus, they are born

killers, IMO.

[MzShellG]

154. What do you suppose..

Pitt bulls, for instance, were bred with to make them so vicious. A number of posters on this thread have stated that pitts are unpredictable. Is it a stretch to suggest a pitt viper (biting reflex) and bulldog (stocky build) cross-breeding? I may be grasping for straws here but I'm just curious if anyone had done research on the origin of this breed.

[SodoffBush]

38. The Siegfried and Roy tigers were trained to be docile

since birth.

I wonder what went wrong.

[zalinda]

67. From what I understand

Roy was having some problems with his blood pressure meds and missed a cue with the tiger. The tiger became distracted, and Roy either fell or slipped. The tiger grabbed him by the neck and took him off stage. While we don't know what was in the tiger's mind. His actions speak of protection, rather than attack, as he could have snapped Roy's neck in two in a heartbeat. I think Roy has said that he thought the tiger was trying to protect him, by picking him up and bringing him out of perceived harm's way. A man's neck doesn't have as much skin to use as a handle as a kitten's, so the neck got punctured.

zalinda

[SodoffBush]

50. These cats weren't trained to be killers

If a cat can turn, why can't a "loving" dog? Do you think instinct has anything to do with behavior, never mind your gentle guiding hand?

[geniph]

324. But the cat didn't "turn" -

he didn't actually attack the guy. He was actually trying to carry him like a kitten.

[lawladyprof]

42. So true

"it is true that the upbringing & training makes all the difference, but kids (or anybody else) who get bitten by, say, a springer spaniel aren't going to get hurt so badly..."

I have a 16 year old Sheltie--typically so human oriented as to be gently beyond belief--that I adopted when he was 13. The vet thinks he was neglected or possibly abused. He bites, but V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y
(which makes the vet laugh). He has bitten a child and drew blood (a quarter of an inch cut). No way could any of my Shelties do much damage to a human--even if they bit, which, other than my grumpy old man, they are not inclined to do.

[AngryAmish]

214. Why do you own a dog that has already attacked a child?

If you are a law prof, please look up the "one bite" tort rule. IMO, owning a dog that has already attacked is wilful and wanton behavior.

[jayctravis]

69. True, even if the dog is "tame"

they can be playing and don't know their own strength. Even a German Shepherd or any other large dog can accidentally injure a small child when it's intending to play.

Apparently the pit bull breed has some sort of locking jaw that grants them extra power and leverage when biting, and this is why they are so dangerous.

[Pachamama]

70. Unfortunately, certain breeds bred to fight have it "built in" to them to

do just that....

Here's a further write-up here in the SF Chronicle into the investigation of the story...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/05/MNGQAD3UJ61.DTL

[bloom]

152. That would be a horrible way to die.

And horrible to be the parents who owned the dogs.

We all make bad choices at times, but that would be one of the worst.

[fleabert]

385. it's horrible, but.

those animals should have been fixed. period. backyard puppy breeders when they live in a city the size of SF, there are plenty of dogs in shelters without them breeding more puppies. I don't doubt the theory that the female being in heat and the male attacking because of this... I firmly believe that a vast majority of maulings and attacks like this are to be blamed on the humans involved, not the animals. they cannot reason, we must be good caretakers and do the higher thinking for them.

IMHO, anyone who does not spay or neuter their pet is an irresponsible owner. there are too many unwanted animals in this world already.

[Xithras]

268. Actually, there's a big difference between pit's and rotties.

Rottweilers are powerful dogs, but they were developed in Roman times as sheep herders and sentries so they're bred to be as obedient as they are powerful. They are naturally gentle dogs (though protective of their turf, like all sheepdog breeds) and if treated right present NO danger to their owners or the community.

Of course, that trainability has also made them a favorite of the less savory types who WANT a violent dog. If you abuse them, they'll get mean. If you train them to be violent, they'll get meaner. When Shakespeare wrote in Julious Caesar "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war", the dogs of war he was referring to were rottweilers. If you don't TRAIN them to be violent, they won't be.

Pit bulls, on the other hand, need no training or abuse to get mean. The American Staffordshire Terrier was originally bred to be self-contained security machines to protect livestock. They were bred to be mean and to attack ANYTHING unfamiliar to them...human or otherwise. Though they can be trained to recognize friend from foe, they are very territorial when confronted with another person or dog who seems to want to "displace" their authority. When it was discovered that they made excellent fighting dogs, they were illegally bred to make themselves even more vicious in the ring, leading to the American Pit Bull Terrier breed. Pit Bull Terriers were developed for one purpose...to maim or kill other dogs and people. Though they retained some of that trainability from their Staffordshire Terrier cousins, they have a much stronger "kill" reflex and shouldn't be trusted as family pets.

[Warpy]

2. Actually, they do

There was a survey done of which breeds are the worst biters, and toy poodles topped the list.

However, consider the difference in damage from a toy poodle versus a pit bull or rottweiler.

That's why these stories keep being trumpeted. The mauling is severe and occasionally fatal, especially when a child is involved. Plus, those two breeds can be unpredictable, a loyal family pet suddenly turning on a child who may or may not have teased it.

Face it, kids and rottweilers or kids and pit bulls are not always happy combinations. If I had kids, I'd consider different breeds.

[RebelOne]

4. I have to disagree with you on Rottweilers and kids.

Rottweilers are wonderful family dogs. My Rottie loves kids and I never have to worry about her when she is around them. But pit bulls are another story. I did not trust the pit bull I owned around little kids.

[madrchsod]

7. rottweilers will go to their death

protecting a member of his or her family and yes, pitbulls can never be trusted.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

53. Uh.. "pitbulls can never be trusted" - !?!?!

Seriously, research a matter before you make such a statement.

:eyes:

[RebelOne]

62. Having owned the breed, there is some truth to the statement

that pit bulls can never be trusted. They are very unpredictable. I have a Rottweiler and I know what she will or will not do.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

64. I, too have owned the breed. YOURS may have been unpredictable...

but it's presumptuous and arrogant for you to speak for all, don't you think? I've lived with an 'unpredictable' dog; and it was NOT the pit!

[RebelOne]

68. Well, let's put it this way then.

We cannot get into the mind of dogs, so I guess you could say that they are all unpredictable. The pit I had I thought I knew quite well until he got older and all of a sudden he became aggressive. But only as far as riding in the car. He was fine for years until suddenly he would not allow anyone near the car when it was parked. Some stupid wiseass tried to pet him and almost lost his arm. It was like my dog was protecting his car.

[vanboggie]

98. Ditto, Cyndee

Our big adorable Newf is the one who has bitten and did some damage. It was not intentional, but as a result being in a situation where natural canine instinct took over. The most our pit does to people is lick them too much. She whines when the pit bulls are rescued on Animal Cops.

Like I said, I had the same misconception as many of the people here, but that was before I owned one. Sweet and sensitive dogs do not become overnight child maulers.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

105. When my ex-husband brought him home at 8 weeks, I, admittedly

was a little scared. I discussed with vet - who told me... ASSURED me that there is NO such thing as a 'bad breed'. I researched the matter. Before it became hip n trendy to report on pit-bull maulings, they were commenly known as being a great family dog.

My Sam was bred intentionally for the good nature of mom and dad. His mom was pure Staffordshire, dad was mostly American Pit Bull Terrier with his paternal g-ma a Chow Chow. (see his curly tail??)



Not *ALL* pits are evil. People buy into the media hype - drink the kool-aid.

[vanboggie]

125. What a cutie

Our equine vet was a small animal vet for awhile. When he came in the house one day and our pit crawled up into his lap, he said he has had many pit bull patients and has yet to meet a mean pit.

[shanti]

156. chows are not especially friendly either

granted, they're not pits, but they are one person dogs who don't tolerate others well, just like sharpeis. i would never have a pit (or any other type of "protection" type dog either).

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

160. AAAAAAAAHHH!! Why the sweeping generalizations?

unreal

[shanti]

164. why are you taking this personally?

this is about a dog breed, not YOU.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

191. It's about rights. Constitutional Rights...

The CDC worded it well here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process."

Oh wait.... fuck those silly things. :eyes:

[vanboggie]

207. Excellent point

:toast:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

241. What an idiotic ruling

"...because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights;"

By the same reasoning, if people are allowed to own pistols they must also be allowed to own atomic bombs. Equal protection.

My ass.

[bloom]

349. I think it's like snakes

Keeping pet snakes. Some people would keep non-poisonous snakes. They might bite people - but they aren't going to kill anyone (boa constrictors would have to fall in with the poisonous snake group).

Some people seem to be arguing for their right to keep rattlesnakes - or other poisonous snakes - whether they are a danger to others or not.

That the owners rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness trumps others right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (yes - I know thats from the Declaration - but it seems to fit this scenario pretty well - esp. since we are talking about LIFE, Liberty (like the ability to walk down the street or be in ones yard), and the Pursuit of Happiness without being maimed or killed.

[Mythsaje]

362. Umm, not quite

More like being allowed to own 1 kind of pistol (a .22) but not a .45.

Your comparison is like being allowed to own a dog, but not a kodiak bear. Or an elephant.

[Megahurtz]

253. Yeah well, victims of dog attacks

have Constitutional Rights too.:think:

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

275. You betcha.... we ALL do in this great country!

Cool, innit?

[Balbus]

325. Curses to that silly Constitution for mucking things up!

:banghead:

[dejaboutique]

364. constitutional rights?

thats stretching it. pitbulls are weapons. a neighborgirl had her mouth torn off by one. I am sick of pitbulls in public too...why walk a dog around in public that is intimidating and scary. go away pitbulls

[conservdem]

371. The next sentence in the report is rather important:

"Despite such concerns, a number of breed-specific
ordinances have been upheld by the courts."

IMO these dogs are like tigers and should be in zoos only. I suspect when the child or grandchild of a powerful politician is mauled to death the will be eliminated or put in zoos.

I have been an attorney for over 12 years, and while I have not researched it, I strongly suspect that breed specific laws limiting ownership will probably withstand constitutional challenges.

[hollowdweller]

77. A pit killed a kid last month in Huntington WV.

[bloom]

141. From a pro-pit bull site -> Never trust a Pit Bull not to fight...

Never trust a Pit Bull not to fight...

It is not necessarily a hate of other dogs that will cause Pit Bulls to fight, but rather an "urge" to do so that has been bred into the breed for many generations. Pit bulls may fight over hierarchic status, but external stimulus or excitement can also trigger a fight. Remember that any canine can fight, but Pit Bulls were bred specifically for their drive, intensity, and determination to win.

Pit Bull owners must be aware of the remarkable fighting abilities this breed posses and always keep in mind that Pit Bulls have the potential to inflict serious injuries to other animals. A Pit Bull may not even be the one starting a conflict, but he has the genetics to finish it. Remember that Pit Bulls are almost always blamed no matter who initiated the hostilities, and often end up paying the price at the hands of the authorities - So does the owner!

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

[SodoffBush]

48. How about a tiger, raised from birth to be "loving?"

Would you trust with your kids?

[Megahurtz]

250. Don't be so stupid,

Rottweilers are NOT perfect.

A friend of mine had a Rottweiler when my daughter was a toddler. My daughter was just standing in the room and the Rottweiler jumped up for an attack on my daughter, biting the back of her neck.
I was all over that dog and if something had happened to my daughter that dog would have been dead, by me.

The dog's owners said "Oh but she's so sweet, she's never done that kind of thing!"
(There were NO puppies in the house either)

Do not underestimate your dog, especially around children. Your dog is an animal, and they have instincts.

[TX-RAT]

254. As quick as the dog touched my child it would have been dead.

[kodi]

24. toy poddles killing a lot of children lately are they?

the only breed that has attacked me twice is the pit bull breed.

i own 6 dogs, 3 are 100 pound plus kuvasz who are used to protect livestock from wolves and bears. i have absolute faith that these 3 dogs would never turn on me. i am an alpha type and do not fear dogs, but whenever i am near either a pit bull or a rottie i am on the look-out for something to use to protect myself from them turning on me.

my girlfriend's roommate had one, and i helped raise it, it was a sweet dog up until 3 years of age, but one day while i was in their house it turned on the woman's boy friend and i had to knock the hell out of it with a lamp to get it off the poor guy.

another time a buddy had one, again sweet as a pup but at age 4 it began to become disobedient and snarl and one day it bite the everloving shit out of his owner's arms as we both fought it off.

these were both well raised, well treated, and loved pets, but BAM!

i think it is bullshit when i hear folks say that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. there are plenty of dogs that are just bad naturally and the real problem is that the pit bull and rottie can do so much damage to have such aggressive tendencies.

[True_Blue]

29. I had a friend that would tell me that it's all in how they are raised

until one of her pitbulls tore half of her foot off.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

84. i raised a large German Shepherd

I would trust that dog around kids and old people, strangers - whoever. He was social and gregarious. He could sense when I was in a comfortable space and adapt accordingly, and there was never a time when he went on "ignore".

I've never owned a pit but I don't think I would have the same level of confidence in its behavior. If something triggers them there is no telling what might happen - and they will put you on "ignore" quicker than shit.

[SodoffBush]

41. When I see a rottweiler or pittbull in the street, even when leashed

I head in another direction. I want nothing to do with these dogs, or their owners.

[RebelOne]

63. Yes, I understand that. When I walk my Rottie

when people see us coming, they go to the other side of the street. Same thing would happen when I had a pit bull.

[shanti]

158. did that make you feel good?

someone crossing the street to avoid you?

[RebelOne]

201. Why the sarcasm?

No, it doesn't make me feel good, but it makes me feel safe.

[TX-RAT]

286. I would just stay on the same side as you.

And if your dog so much as lunges at me, or touches me in any way, I'd shoot it.
Lots of concealed carry permits in GA.

[RebelOne]

308. My dog would not lunge at anyone.

In fact, she does not want too much to do with strangers. She shys away from them.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

66. Good, they probably don't want anything to do with you either.

:eyes:

[RebelOne]

72. Well, I don't blame them.

I wouldn't want anything to do with anyone walking a big potential "dangerous" dog. :)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

244. I wish they wouldn't

There was an outdoors birthday party at a neighbor's house a few weeks ago. Young bozo, obviously a friend of some partygoers, shows up and start chatting with his friends. He has a pitbull by the leash.

I declare the party over for me, grab my 4 yo kid, and go home.

You going to tell me I overreacted and should stay, kid and all?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

245. Probably, yes.

OMG... MONSTERS!! ALL OF 'EM!!

[TX-RAT]

255. Yep, every damn one of them.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

278. Um.....

and Texas males are all chauvinistic Republican pigs?

[TX-RAT]

288. Is that what your calling me?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

289. Goodness no! It's a question. Every male from TX that *I* am aware of is.

I am asking if it's fair to make the same sweeping generalizations.

[TX-RAT]

290. Pretty nice crayfishing there.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

291. "crayfishing"? Must be a southernism with which I am unfamiliar.

In any regard - sweeping generalizations are for the small-minded.

[TX-RAT]

293. So now I'm small minded?

Oh , no that would be you, beings your the one who just made a sweeping generalization of Texas Males. Now do you care to crayfish from that statement also?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

294. I dunno... are you making sweeping generalizations?

I ASKED IF my experience allows me to make sweping generalizations. I forgot to use this: :sarcasm:.

[chopper]

295. actually...

"beings your the one who just made a sweeping generalization of Texas Males"

his sweeping generalization of texans was in sarcasm, to point out your sweeping generalization of a breed of dogs.

ironic then, that you got so pissed about someone making a generalization about texans, eh? get the point yet?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

296. um....

I ASKED IF my experience allows me to make sweping generalizations. I forgot to use this: :sarcasm:

[TX-RAT]

316. your sweeping generalization of a breed of dogs.

I wasn't the one that called them monsters. My answer was as much sarcasm as theirs.

(you got so pissed about someone making a generalization about Texans,) Yep, every damn time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

338. What a mature response. Not.

I have the instinct of protecting my child. And you find this worthy of mocking?

Jesus H. Christ.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

343. MOCKING? You asked if you were over-reacting. Yes, you PROBABLY were.

Don't ask if you feel the answer may 'mock'.

Jeebus H. Cripes

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

344. Messages have bodies, not only subject lines.

Jus' sayin'.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

347. OK, we agree to disagree. Be insanely fearful of a breed.

But, be cautious. That false sense of security you have with a cranky old Lab could blow up. I KNOW you should teach your child proper manners with dogs... ask owner before approaching and be cautious with your children around ALL dogs. The pit bull is not a boogie-monster. Really. Some are... but some Shepherd's are, too... and Huskies, and Dobermans, and Bichons...

Jus' sayin'.

[conservdem]

370. Smart move. These dogs belong is zoos next to the tiger exhibits.

[hollowdweller]

78. 99% of the owners of these dogs here are dumb rednecks with no idea how to

handle them. Either that or they are drug dealers. They don't have it together enough to keep them confined and can't even call the bastards off. Also they are VERY hard to kill unless you shoot them at a high powered rifle or at very close range. I know from experience a .22 will bounce off a Rottweiler's skull at about 40 yards.

I can't tell you how many chickens I have lost to Pitts and Rotts. My wife has been bitten once by each breed. I spent over 200 bucks to get my border collie patched up after he came up in my yard and attacked him. Another attacked my female and it cost us 1000 dollars to get her sewn up!

[SodoffBush]

90. In Europe there tend to be, for the most part, very strict leash laws

Though I met some people from Belgium who were camping next to me in France last year. A pittbull belonging to another camper was off the leash, attacked their small poodle, shaking it like a ragdoll. The dog became sick, and the people had to end the vacation they'd just started.

Europeans must have dog insurance, and although the owner of the pittbull did pay the medical bills, it didn't make up for the lost vacation, not to mention, the poodle had died shortly thereafter.

I hope the owners of the dogs who attacked your dogs and wife paid dearly.

[gatlingforme]

187. A guy had that same philosophy and everything bounced off his head.

what a crock of crap. that kind of blather is something I would hear from school children... yeah know., like hmm, I know what you are, but what am I.

I wonder what you think of fat people.?, or mentally challenged people, or the homeless. ?

I bet you were pissed off when you heard that the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty for retarded people too.

[Serial Mom]

333. You got it right - it's the owners!

Not the breed!

[jayctravis]

149. Part of it is young children might not understand how a

dog will react in different situations. When I was about four I remember absently trying to pick up a bone that our family dog was gnawing on...in the same manner you see kids pick up and inspect toys from other children. I happened to startle the dog and he instinctively snapped at my face. Luckily it was a warning bite and he just barely caught my lip. I of course freaked and my parents were rightfully concerned because at that age I couldn't explain what happened.

Certain tame dogs I know do have a "rough play" mode that can be gotten into, but they also will immedately drop out of it when the master stops as well. Good dogs will put their mouth around your forearm and not clamp down...same as cats will smack at each other with retracted claws.

[shanti]

161. when my son was 4

he tugged on the leash of a dozing plotthound, a bear hunting dog breed. my son was sitting on the couch and the dog leaped up and snatched his upper lip, right at the margin, a "warning" bite. he dropped the skin and sat back down. luckily, i was able to retrieve the skin piece and it was sewn back on, but my son was maimed for life and it was impossible to do plasic surgery on the lip margin, according to the plastic surgeon.

i am not an alpha type person, so that would probably make me a bad choice for a dog owner.

[vanboggie]

6. Pits get a bad rap

I had the same commonly-held misconceptions about pit bulls before we got ours. She is one of the two most sensitive, loving dogs I've owned in my life. If a small child approaches her, she crawls to them on her belly because she is afraid of hurting them. People who exploit pit bulls and train them to be attack dogs is the problem. No one should assume to condemn the breed unless they know the facts, and this site is very helpful in that respect.

The Real Pit Bull

[madrchsod]

11. i`ll retract my statement about pit bulls

by saying this-clean bloodlines in pit bulls are very important in the attitudes of pit bulls. in detroit all pitbulls that are picked up by the "animal cops" are put to death because the bloodlines are so bad that they cannot be placed ...

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

54. That is true of any breed, not unique to 'pits'. I know a black lab who

MAULED the owner because of poor breeding.

[SodoffBush]

46. right

[jmowreader]

259. Okay, guys, quit posting the Roy Horn pictures!

The glory of his presentation was seeing him walk into a cage full of man-eating tigers and come out without being eaten. No one sane turns a man-eating tiger into a house pet.

Admittedly, some people do it--and you generally find out about it when you open up the paper to read "Joe Jones, 48, of 1512 Whiteville Road, was eaten by his pet tiger yesterday."

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

57. Thank you....

[nebula]

8. The parents should be shot for having them in them in the first place

the stupididity of some people is beyond belief.

[RebelOne]

10. Yes, and I bet that those parents taught the dogs to be aggressive. n/t

[Fiona]

15. You might lose that bet...

"Choking back tears, the mother of a 12-year-old boy killed by his family's pit bulls called Friday's fatal mauling an accident involving "happy, friendly pets" that had never acted violently before.

"We never trained them to do any kinds of vicious things. ... This is just a devastating tragedy," said Maureen Faibish, the morning after her son Nicholas was attacked while home alone in their Sunset District apartment."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/05/MNGQAD3UJ61.DTL

[nebula]

16. Too hard to believe

that the parents would train the pit bulls to be aggressive and then let their kids play with them...

much more likely, the parents thought that the dogs were harmless and domesticated enough for their human children to be around and play with...too stupid to realize that pit bulls are utterly unpredictable, no matter how well bred and trained...

[11cents]

17. No. The dogs were pets, not fighting animals

The neighbors say the dogs seemed friendly and happy. But they were an unneutered male/female pair; if the female was in heat that may have triggered the aggression. Today's SF Chron story lists some other possible factors. The father, who was the primary caretaker, had been out of town preparing for a move to Oregon. The absence of the "pack leader" might have done it.

[RebelOne]

21. You are correct in the fact that if the female was in heat

could have triggered aggression. My pit, Easy, and his son Sonnie, lived for a while with my sister and her boyfriend. Their next-door neighbor's dog was in heat and it triggered a dog fight between the two pit bulls, who almost killed one another.

[countingbluecars]

27. If being in heat

is enough to trigger such aggression, then I think pit bulls should not be pets!

[RebelOne]

28. I agree. I love pit bulls, but I believe they should not be bred

any longer. I think the breed should be discontinued, though that will take a lot of doing. I know Great Britain has banned the breed.

[DemExpat]

85. Holland has banned it too.....and walks with my dog in the park are

more relaxed now that I know I will not be encountering any pitbulls.

American Staffordshires are allowed with papers, but I've noticed that most here are muzzled after one or two aggressive encounters.

I believe that dogs like Pits and Stafs can be excellent dogs IF the owner has truly complete control over the dog - that the dog knows that it is the lowest dog in the order of the family pack and cannot act out its dominance over others.
Just my opinion.....

Most people I have seen with these fighting dogs are not this kind of owner who take the time and effort to totally train these dogs with love and firmness...... unfortunately.

DemEx

[vanboggie]

12. Fire away

Repugs often say the same thing about liberals. Don't generalize, please.

[Fiona]

9. Tragic story....

and the inevitable flame-war will ensue between the "no bad dogs" people and those who realize that certain breeds DO tend to kill in inordinate numbers.

Yes, Pit bulls are not among the most-prone-to-bite breeds. But they certainly ARE among the most-likely-to-kill breeds.

There's a difference between getting nipped by a cocker spaniel who bites once, then backs off, and a pit bull who latches on, shakes, and keeps attacking until its target is dead.

Of 180 fatal dog attacks by pure-breds since 1979, 66 of them were by Pit Bulls. 39 by Rottweilers.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf


edit: I originally got the numbers wrong. Corrected.

[bloom]

22. That's how I see it

I think a lot of people like to be in denial about how violent certain breeds tend to be.

It's not like there aren't statistics.

A good point about bites and fatal attacks.

Two puncture holes and death is a big difference.

[hollowdweller]

79. Rottweilers have cost me over $1200 in vet bills and $200 in hospital bill

s when they have come in my yard and attacked my dogs. They have also killed my 17 year old cat, my neighbors 13 year old dog, about 15 of my chickens, one of my baby goats and 3 of my peacocks.

After asking for help from the county without success I have a zero tolerance policy. If they are on my land they are fair game. Thankfully the other neighbors have poisioned or shot most of the offending dogs before they ever made it to my yard, which is electric fenced.

[RebelOne]

91. Why don't the owners keep their dogs confined?

My Rottie would never kill anything. I just can't understand it. It is the owner's fault for letting these dogs run loose.

[ninkasi]

199. I used to own a rottie, RebelOne

I had her from the time she was a puppy. She was the most gentle, lovable, good natured dog I've ever known. However, because of the rott's reputation...when she was outside, she was either in the back yard, which had an eight foot wooden fence with a locked gate and beware of dog sign on it, or, in the front, on a leash, with either me or my husband controlling her.

I had small grandkids at the time. She adored them, and they loved her, but I never let them around her unsupervised. She never bit anybody, but knowing the strength and power, not only did we thoroughly socialize her, and give her obedience training, we spent a lot of time with her, and made sure that she was never in a position to cause harm to anybody else. We also had her spayed when she was old enough, to avoid male dogs in heat coming around when she was outside.

A lot of harm is caused when a dog becomes a fad, and is bred by the wrong people, who don't pay the proper attention to blood lines, etc. Then people get them because they are in style, and lose interest, and don't monitor or care for the dog as they should.

I believe a lot of things are involved, nature, nurture, and common sense. We tried to make sure that all the requirements were filled. I still miss her.

[Megahurtz]

256. You have NO idea

what your "Rottie" would "never do".

[hollowdweller]

352. I agree but that doesn't change the problem.

[sled]

147. Nice report

But if you read it all, you'll find it comes to different conclusions, than the one you suggest.

Who can let the facts, get in the way of hype from the usual suspects, MSM, government hacks, ambulance chasers, insurance companies, etc. Where's the WMDs???

Excerpts from study:

An alternative to breed-specific legislation is to regulate individual dogs and owners on the basis of their behavior. Although, it is not systematically reported, our reading of the fatal bite reports indicates that problem behaviors (of dogs and owners) have preceded attacks in a great many cases and should be sufficient evidence for preemptive action.

Conclusions — Although fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed- specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite and cause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficulties inherent in determining a dog’s breed with certainty, enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises constitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and, therefore, should not be the primary factor driving public policy concerning dangerous dogs. Many practical alternatives to breed-specific ordinances exist and hold promise for prevention of dog bites.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

192. Read that CDC link in it's entirety. Pages 4 & 5 especially....

In 1986, nonfatal dog bites resulted in an estimated 585,000 injuries that required medical attention or restricted activity. By 1994, an estimated 4.7 million people (1.8% of the US population) sustained a dog bite; of these, approximately 800,000 (0.3% of the US population) sought medical care for the bite (332,000 in emergency departments), and 6,000 were hospitalized.9-11 This 36% increase in medically attended bites from 1986 to 1994 draws attention to the need for an effective response, including dog bite prevention programs. Because(1) fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% of all dog bites annually, (2) fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing, and (3) fatal bites are rare at the usual political level where bite regulations are promulgated and enforced, we believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention.

Those Cocker Spaniels should be looked at :eyes:

In addition, the 'deadliest breed' varies. Oh look...

"...from May 1975 through April 1980 and listed the following breeds as responsible for the indicated number of deaths: German Shepherd Dog (n = 16); Husky-type dog (9); Saint Bernard (8)"

Let's keep making the worst offending breeds extinct till no more stupid owners exist or fucked up accidents occur.

That's the ticket...

[redqueen]

297. BEST POST IN THE THREAD!

:hi:

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

299. Thanks, redqueen....

I should just step away. I don't get this at all.

:hi:

[bloom]

350. you might want to consider those serious injuries... or NOT :shrug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1524566#1526603



How many people are cocker spaniels putting in the hospital these days?

[madrchsod]

13. here`s one from the suntimes in chicago

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-dog05s1.html
'If anyone's a hero, that black Lab was'
the owner of this dog should be sent to cook county jail for 364 days.
let`s hear it for black labs!!!

[RebelOne]

20. What a great story.

Yes, pits are hard to kill. My pit was shot by a cop's .44 and he survived. My brother had him at a friend's house while he was doing some work on her Florida room. The back door was open and a cat walked by. Easy (my pit), who hated cats, ran out the door, grabbed and killed the cat. The next-door neighbor who was a policeman ran out with his gun and shot my dog. Amazingly, Easy survived and lived to the ripe old age of 13.

[DS1]

32. deleted by poster

that was mean

[RebelOne]

39. Well, I am very happy he lived.

I did not train him to kill cats. That was the fault of my brother, who I can say was a real dumbass. And he encouraged the dog to attack other animals. Otherwise, that dog was a real sweetheart. My brother raised him from a puppy and tried to make him aggressive. The only aggressiveness he had was toward cats. When I inherited him, it was already too late.

[DS1]

44. another deleted by poster

.

[MisterP]

43. why a shame?

[DS1]

56. never mind

I was in an eye-for-an-eye moment

[RebelOne]

58. Because it seems that the poster is a cat lover

and my dog killed a cat through no fault of mine. My brother was responsible. He trained the dog to attack other animals. That was before I inherited the dog. I already stated what a dumbass my brother was. He wanted to make Easy a fighting dog.

[Megahurtz]

257. If that dog killed my cat,

I would shoot it too. But more than once. I would make sure it was as dead as my cat.

[TX-RAT]

258. my dog killed a cat through no fault of mine.?

You knew the dog didn't like cats.
You let someone else supervise your dog.

Looks like it's got your fault written all over it. Once that dog was found to be dangerous, it should have been put down.
Nobody's pet has a right to kill someone else's.

[chopper]

276. uh...

read his post.

"That was before I inherited the dog"

the dog wasn't his when the cat was killed.

jesus, people need to start reading posts before they start blaming them for things..christ.

[redqueen]

300. People seem to be a little more emotional lately.

Anyone else noticing that?

[RebelOne]

318. I did not own the dog at the time.

My brother did. I finally got the dog away from my brother because he wanted to make him fight. The dog was not dangerous to humans. And after I got him, I made sure he was not exposed to any other cats. So don't jump all over me.

[TX-RAT]

217. Interesting

(Easy (my pit), who hated cats, ran out the door, grabbed and killed the cat.)

So you were well aware, your dog was already dangerous.

[shrike]

240. Darn right they're hard to kill

The dumbass next door had a male pit bull he mistreated terribly. (WHY, oh why, didn't I call the ASPCA on him??) He got an unneutered female pit and the two had puppies. One day, the neighbor (though he'd moved away by that time) went after the female and one of the puppies (two-by-fours were his favorite disciplining device). Buddy, the male, jumped in to defend his mate and nearly killed the guy. The guy (or his wife) managed to get a gun and shoot him. They left his 'carcass' to rot. A few days later Buddy, very much alive, crawled up to the front door. They called the vet to have him put down. What is it about pits that attract assholes? Seems to happen too often. (No offense to you and the other pit bull owners on this board, but in my real life I've met more than a few jerks with pit bulls.)

[shrike]

236. Labs are the best

We have a yellow one. She's fat and spoiled, but a joy. Can't see her taking on a pit bull, but she might surprise me.

[BrotherBuzz]

14. Christine Craft is talking this story now...

Catch the stream at http://www.kgoam810.com/ or in the archive in the future...

This is Christine Craft's forte because she is a dog advocate lawyer and has some good information about this case.

[DS1]

30. It's not the breed, it's the trainer!

/fucking dumbass

[Tippy]

36. Your wrong it is the breed....

Most of these dogs are inbread.....

[DS1]

37. I knew I should have added the

:sarcasm:

tag

[Tippy]

55. I am glad to hear that :)

[SodoffBush]

49. I agree! Bad training is responsible!

[Walt Starr]

109. Nope, a lot has to do with the breed.

Pit Bulls were bred to be killers. That is an undeniable fact.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. The boy loved these dogs

He etched the male's name in the sidewalk outside of his house. The male was the one caught with blood covering his face. It is a very tragic story.

The issue with pits and Rottys is that these are POWERFUL critters bred for aggression and too many owners don't appreciate those traits, nor the fact that having multiple dogs increases the risk because of the pack mentality. I've known beautiful examples of both breeds. I am especially fond a very sweet pit bull in my family but none of us allow children to play with this dog unless his Alpha human is nearby.

[countingbluecars]

33. If a child can't play

with a dog unless the dog's Alpha human is nearby, then that dog should not be a family pet.

[Gormy Cuss]

80. Agreed.

The pit bull in my family lives in a household of only adults.

[Tippy]

34. Pit's are not to b e trusted....

NO way shape or form. They might be a loving family pet one day and a killer the next...I am currently boading a female pit 8 months old, she thinks she is a lap dog at times but I have seen her agressive at other times...She has been handled very gently and played with a lot. If they detect any kind of agression they can turn on a person, at anytime, for almost any reason.

The young lady who owns this Pit was told by a breeder to pull her ears, it made them easier to train..yea right first time I saw it happen I put a stop to it but that is the reason she is agressive at times I am sure.

Yes they make great watch dogs but just remember they may also bite the hand that feeds them, it is in their breeding...

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tippy]

97. Fox News that is quite a slam

Ask any breeder who fights his dogs...as a matter of fact in breeding makes many dogs tend to be more violent and most Pits have been inbread at one time or another

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

113. Again - Source? Lemme pull some facts outta my ass to counter ...

:eyes:

[vanboggie]

99. Thank you :)

Well said, Cyndee

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

159. MY post asking for a source was deleted, but sweeping generalizations

with no credible source remain.

[saigon68]

277. Adios

[progressivebydesign]

35. Any dog who kills a child is reported...

its just that Pit Bulls DO kill more children and adults. They are loaded guns if trained badly.

[DS1]

40. And like guns there's no training required to get one

which is why idiots and fuckwits end up killing their kids during target practice over Memorial Day weekend, or leave shotguns on the couch so their kids can pick them up and blast a hole through the aluminum siding and their daddys - from recent reports of gun stupidity.

[RedSock]

45. pit bulls are great

Bad Rap indeed.

six years ago, we took in a mixed pit we found on the street in front of our building in nyc. he was either trained to fight (and very bad at it) or was used as bait for other dogs.

it seemed pretty clear from the bit of metal tag still on his collar that he was dumped on our street. in mid-december in a cold rainstorm, no fur, and severe mange that took months to cure.

he does have anxiety and emotional problems but once he trusts you, he is the sweetest dog you could ever hope for.

buster:

[RebelOne]

47. He looks to be a real sweet boy.

And he is very fortunate that you took him in. Poor baby.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

60. Beautiful... thank you! And here was Sam with his big brother, Spot:

Yes, Sam was the black pit...

[vanboggie]

103. Good for you Red

He's lucky you found him, and I'm sure you feel just as lucky having him to love you. A pit's devotion to those he loves is endless. As for pit bulls and cats, ours raised a tiny kitten we rescued. Are there laws for pitkittens?

[JohnyCanuck]

51. I sure as heck would not have one around my kids

I don't give a shit how "good natured" some pit bulls are reputed to be. I sure as hell wouldn't have one around my house. They are still an animal and I don't care how well they are trained or brought up, there is still an element of unpredictability about their behavior. Maybe 99 out of 100 of them with the right training are sweet, good natured, loving family pets under even the most trying circumstances. I would still be concerned that I might get the 1 out of a 100 that suddenly one day flips its lid for some unknown reason and chews the face off the 6 year old kid on the scooter going by on the sidewalk.

Pit bull owner charged after attack on young girl

CTV.ca News Staff

The owner of a pit bull is facing charges after a ten-year-old girl was attacked by a dog early Saturday morning, Toronto police told CTV.ca.

"The 10-year-old was playing with a litter of puppies when she was attacked by the pit bull," Toronto police Staff Sgt. Kevin Suddes said, confirming that the attacking dog was the puppies' mother.

According to investigating police, the owner of the dog was not in the west-end townhouse when the attack occurred, "leaving four children alone in the house with her dog and puppies," Suddes said.

<snip>

The victim suffered serious facial injuries and underwent extensive surgery at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children. There is no word on her condition.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1116770243511_19/

Dog walker mauled by pit bulls
Last updated Aug 30 2004 08:42 AM EDT
CBC News

Toronto – Police shot and killed two pit bull terriers Saturday after the animals attacked a man who was walking them.

The incident occurred around 3 a.m. Saturday behind a building on Isabella Avenue near Church Street.

The unidentified victim was walking the dogs for a friend when they suddenly turned on him, witnesses said.

"The dogs were just tearing the man apart," said Dave Larson, who saw the attack from his apartment balcony. "It was almost like a shark attack.

"Once the dogs got a taste of the blood, I guess, they just started going at it."

http://toronto.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=to_pitbulls20040830

[SodoffBush]

61. The last sentence speaks to instinct

Siegried and Roy had been breeding white tigers for 15 years. The white tiger can't exist in the wild because its coloration does not protect it there.

The fact that a white tiger can only exist in captivity and in Vegas shows doesn't mean it can become a house cat, no matter how loving the owner.

[bloom]

65. Seems some insurance companies charge more

for certain breeds - or they won't give you insurance at all. Seems to me that came up when we were considering what company to go with.

Our dog isn't in one of the high risk groups - but if we had had a different dog - it would have been an issue.

[bicentennial_baby]

73. My parents company does that

b/c of our oh-so-vicious Huskies...where they got that, I do not know, b/c mu huskies have always been docile sweethearts.

[Scout1071]

165. Huskies can snap too.....

And I've got the proof in the form of 4 vampire marks permanently on my wrist. If the pics weren't gruesome, I'd share them.

[RebelOne]

74. Health insurance for certain breeds is more.

I just recently got insurance on my Rottie and I am paying almost double than for other breeds.

[AngryAmish]

220. Very hard to get insurance in Chicago if you own a pit or Rott

[bloom]

230. the "industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998"

"Of the estimated 4.7 million people who were bitten by dogs in 1994, 800,000 sought medical care. Of these, 332,000 needed treatment in emergency rooms, and 6,000 were hospitalized. The average hospital stay for a dog-bite injury was 3.6 days.<snip>

According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance, costing more than $321 million in 2003. In 2002, the latest year for which numbers are available, the average claim for a dog bite was $16,600.

Dog attacks account for one-third of all liability claims on homeowners' insurance policies. According to the Western Insurance Information Service, the insurance industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998 alone."


http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/DogBiteStatistics.html

[sled]

378. Expert???

What the hell is a "Certified applied animal behaviorist". Sounds suspiciously like those unemployable "experts", who make their bones within America's drug war charade...self-certified charlatans...

"Insurance Information Institute"??? Hmmm...those poor insurance companies. Guess we'll just have to jack up everybody's homeowners insurance rates, cause the trial lawyers are robbing the poor, victimized insurance companies blind, with bogus lawsuits, in front of activists judges, etc., etc., ad nauseam...

"Western Insurance Information Service"...smells like corporate BS...

***********************************************

Richard H. Polsky, Ph.D., CAAB.

Animal behavior expert Dr. Polsky assists attorneys develop/utilize behavioral arguments regarding dog bites & cat bites, prepare declarations & reports, inspect attack premises & render animal behavior expert testimony. Full litigation support. Available nationwide. Both civil & criminal. Scientifically based analysis concerning dog behavior, dangerous dogs, dog bites & cat bites & dog/cat inflicted personal injury.

[Megahurtz]

260. No offense, Rebel One,

but you "just recently got insurance on your Rottie and you are paying almost double then for other breeds".
Doesn't that tell you something?:think:

[RebelOne]

317. No it wasn't just Rottweilers.

It was for many other large breeds and the other breeds were not considered to be dangerous dogs.

[sled]

375. I know, I know...

"Doesn't that tell you something?"

That insurance companies are money grubbing, opportunistic, corporate slime, just like CNN???

[bloom]

379. They also know which breeds they are paying out on...

and how much.

[sled]

381. As if...

you know...

Figures lie, liars figure, but insurance companies are a fount of unbiased truth...

Progressive Democrats, who rely on corporatists to support their arguments.

Bushworld through looking glass... :banghead:

[bloom]

382. OK - you tell me what they have to gain by lying about what breeds

they have to pay out the most on.


?

[sled]

383. Uh...

Billions of dollars...

And just as the CDC report states, if they haven't done DNA testing, & "pedigree analysis" the whole charade is technically moot, at least as far as Rotts are concerned, & since "pit bull" has become a generic term to describe any mongrel with short legs, a muscled body, & a block head, the name ends up being basically meaningless, except to those who wouldn't know a "pit bull", from a cur, if it bit them in the ass.

Oops, bit them in the ass, must be a "pit bull"...guilty as charged, or so say our friends at the insurance corporations. They've always got our best interests at heart.

But what does it matter, the enlightened, reality-based, progressive community has witches to burn...

[bloom]

384. I suppose they could be in cahoots

with the CDC which wrote the report about deaths by dogs.

Seems like it was the breeds mentioned the most frequently in that - that came up with the insurance.


While I agree that the whole pit bull definition is weird - like others have said - people DO describe their own dogs that way - people are all over the place here defending pit bulls - not some particular mastiff or something.

Besides - companies could jack up the insurance for NO reason.

So I don't really buy it that there is some conspiracy about the insurance companies choosing particular breeds to charge more for or to not insure at all for no reason.

I think it more likely that pit bull owners are in denial about the potential problems.

Maybe pit bull owners tend to be conspiracy theorists, also. That would make an interesting study.

[sled]

388. Pit bull "conspiracy theories"???

1) I wouldn't know if "pit bull owners are in denial", since I don't own, nor have ever owned a dog, that even the most progressive of regressives could label a "pit bull".

2) I've raised & trained Rotts for about 25 yrs., so when it comes to that specific breed, I can state with absolute certainty, that those who rail against them, have not the slightest clue, what they're talking about. Even those self-anointed "experts", who just happen to make their bones, colluding with ambulance chasers, to drive up everybody's homeowners rates, by bringing BS lawsuits (Richard H. Polsky, Ph.D., CAAB. Certified applied animal behaviorist).

3) "Besides - companies could jack up the insurance for NO reason". As if they haven't...how can one explain raising everyone's homeowners rates, nationwide, because of hurricanes in Florida, when the vast majority of Americans are completely unaffected? Even in Florida, those most at risk, are those living along the coast, yet, since they are generally the richest of all Americans, every homeowner in America must suffer, as not to "punish" idiots who decide they must own mansions, built on the waterfront. Exactly as the CDC report states, that so few on this thread even bothered to read, "equal protection rights" issues arise, when certain groups are targeted, using bogus data, & definitions.

4) Considering your last response, & how you seem to wrongly assume I'm a "pit bull owner", it doesn't surprise me that you would assume things, about the CDC report, that if you bothered to read it, turn out to be completely false.

5) The whole idea of raising rates, based on certain breeds is nonsense, anyway, cause only a fool would tell their insurance company that their animal was a "pit bull", or a Rott. The better approach, as the CDC report suggests, in so many words, is to tell the insurance hacks, you own a dog, & if they so choose, let them do the DNA testing & "pedigree analysis" to justify increasing your rates. Duh...it won't happen...only the suckers pay, as so it should be...P.T. Barnum's misappropriated quote comes to mind, "there's a sucker born every minute", & insurance companies make billions relying on suckers' naivete, with the help of knee-jerk reactionary, self-defined "progressives", & their self-appointed "experts", who, more often than not, know less than nothing, about their latest crusade, or the justification for it.

[Occulus]

71. Once again, CNN demonstrates it is now like those mags at the

grocery checkout line.

I am now officially putting CNN.com and CNN itself on my "not news" list. They have stopped broadcasting anything of importance and are only recycling tried-and-true story formats which they themselves know occur on a regular basis to keep people from seeing/reading the truly important news in this nation and the rest of the world.

Why do we keep hearing these stories? Because people loooooove tabloids. And that's what CNN has become: tabloid news.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

76. And so much more glam to go after a breed.... and here we see DUers

buying into the MSM 'blow-up'... "ooooo, all pits are eeeevil!!". Oh, I get it... MSM can be trusted when we've bought into the hype and hysteria.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

88. yeah I don't get it

I mean its not like pits are more likely to kill a kid than the next breed. . . oh wait, yeah they are.

In fact most people get pits because of their reputation as ass-kicking dogs.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

94. "Most people"...where do you get that statistic?

:shrug:

On edit... EVERYONE I know who has or has had a pit got them for their gentle nature.

Or as this author describes "Pit bulls are energetic, playful, loyal, loving, protective, and intelligent. As pets, they are unlike any other breed of dog. When properly raised, socialized, and obedience trained, the pit bull makes an ideal dog for couch-lovers and outdoor enthusiasts alike. However, it should be noted that this is NOT a good breed for a beginning dog owner, a careless/lazy owner, or a child."
http://pitbulls.jentown.com/pitcharacteristics/pitbullcharacteristics.htm#personality

[SlavesandBulldozers]

110. ok, I guess we live in two different worlds

in the world i live in pit-bulls are not renowned for their gentle nature.

I suppose I ought to let the apartment owners know that pit-bulls are preceded by their gentle reputation - so that they strike out that exclusive "no pit-bulls" clause out of the lease. Because really, what would be the problem in having an apartment complex full of gentle pit-bulls.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

115. Hellllooooo...... Kool Aid... and there are WMD's in Iraq

Media-hype.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

122. I don't think that presuming pit-bulls are dangerous

is quite the same as presuming your other example. And perhaps I should clarify a bit, it's not that I think that pits are waaaay more likely to attack a kid than another dog- I just think that a pit is more likely to kill a kid than the next dog. I think the numbers speak for themselves.

I understand that upbringing is important, but I wouldn't want one near my kid - if i had a kid.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

128. Well, I had one... with a kid and a cat and a Maltese. And, they test

better than most common breeds according to the American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

My dog was raised well.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

144. i'm sure you were a great owner

I understand the nature/nurture aspect of this. I also understand that only a very small percentage of pit-bulls attack humans.

But you can't keep acting like pit-bulls are litte floating cherubs who have just earned this reputation out of the blue, a pit-bull is capable of being a very dangerous dog. Indeed, they were made to be so.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

157. Not with people - and there's a big difference.

So, you shouldn't 'keep acting' as though they are aggressive with humans by nature. Quite the contrary.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

166. I guess somewhere I stated that all pit-bulls are maneaters.

I'm sorry i didnt realize I said that.

Thanks for turning my preconceived notions of pit-bulls (and statistics) upside-down. Someone ought to educate the parents of this dead kid, we wouldn't want to have any misperceptions floating about.

[bloom]

148. I'm not impressed with your test

Just because they are behaved around their main owner?

Does nothing to dispel the problem of unpredictable violence.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

151. Cool, then don't own a pit.

Sweeping generalizations seem to be all the rage.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

167. its typically not the owner that gets the teeth

nt

[Walt Starr]

211. Cool, and I'll also work for local ordinances banning the breed

which have been successful in other urban areas.

If you live a quarter mile down the road, chances are I won't be attacked by your killer dog.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

213. Cool - you go ahead and infringe on Constitutional rights!

The CDC worded it well here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process."

Oh wait.... fuck those silly things. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

219. Big problem

Though argued to be unconstitutional, I know of no rulings to the same.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

224. Yes, well, fight for breed specific legislation if it makes you feel good.

Fatal dog bites have remained at a consistent number over the years. The breed labeled 'deadliest' varies. So... ban pits and watch another breed step up to that slot. Then you can legislate against THAT breed. Gotcha.

Instead... maybe you should review the breeds that are BITING more - a SICK increase from 585,000 in 1986 to 4.7 million by 1994!!!!!

Breed specific legislation, like 'terror alerts' and the USA Patriot Act ... is a false sense of security, and does NOTHING to address the problem owners or prevent freak accidents.

[TX-RAT]

222. Depends on how you do it.

We passed an ordinance here that took care of the problem.
It was called the Tether Law.
In general it made it illegal to have a dog chained or tethered in any fashion.
It required the proper fencing necessary to insure the animal couldn't get out. Minimum fenced area allowed was 100sq-ft. It asks for a minimum of 6ft in height or enclosed top.
It also made the owner completely liable for all actions of the dog. If your dog gets out and killed a neighbors cat, you would be charged with negligence, your dog would be considered a dangerous dog at large, you would pay all necessary expense's as far as vet bills, and most likely your dog would be put down.

[Megahurtz]

264. Oh yeah right, and

I'm sure your dog is so "gentle" that it just LOVES the mailman too.:eyes:
:sarcasm:

[Fiona]

190. If you'll read carefully

you'll see nobody says "all pits are evil". We're saying that Pits are MORE LIKELY TO KILL than other breeds. And that's an indisputable fact.

Most pit bulls are, I'm sure, very good dogs. But a larger percentage of them kill humans than any other breed. It's a distinction worth noting.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

206. From a source YOU provided: the 'deadliest breed' varies. Oh look...

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"...from May 1975 through April 1980 and listed the following breeds as responsible for the indicated number of deaths: German Shepherd Dog (n = 16); Husky-type dog (9); Saint Bernard (8)"

Let's keep making the worst offending breeds extinct till no more stupid owners exist or fucked up accidents occur.

That's the ticket...

[Fiona]

292. Your stats stop at 1980

the popularity of Pit Bulls has increased greatly since then. The stats I provided are much more recent.

[hollowdweller]

75. Interesting people damn the media over dogs but it's OK on guns.

[LeftyMom]

83. My friend had two pits and a wolf hybrid

One of the pits she rescued from a family that didn't treat him well, and he's agressive toward people sometimes and unpredictable. She keeps him in the backyard when they have guests or children in the house.

The other pit is a an old sweetie who thinks she's a lap dog. It's funny when she walks her and people shy away from the big scary pit bull, because she has no teeth (they were all pulled by the vet years ago b/c of decay) but she might try to love you to death.

The wolf hybrid is huge, but he's very gentle with babies and children, other dogs and cats. He bit the agressive pit once but now they've established that he's alpha male and haven't had any more trouble. He's really smart and if I could have a puppy where I live I'd encourage her to breed him, because he's lovely to look at and has admirable personality traits. He plays nicely with my son, even when he pulls his tail or messes with his ears.

My point is this, my friend has three "problem breed" dogs. The only one that's actually a problem was raised by neglectful (and possibly abusive) assholes. The ones she raised are model dogs, even though she has no special training, because she treats them well and let them know from puppyhood that she's in charge and expects them to be obedient to her. While some breeds are more volatile than others (and pit bulls certainly qualify) making sure the dog is bred well (and not bred for fighting or agression, or inbred) and then raising it with love and attention, but a firm insistance on proper behavior, will prevent most of these attacks.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

87. Your last paragraph is quite dead-on.....

This thread inspired a tribute to another good one...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3393072&mesg_id=3393072

[ocean girl]

86. Wait everybody! Please watch The Dog Whisperer

on the National Geographic channel. Cesar Millan has a dog rescue center where he rehabilitates dogs and trains owners. Most of his dogs are pit bulls that he has saved from death.

I don't know much about dogs and I've always been afraid of big ones with big teeth, but this show is very enlightening. They show Cesar training every kind of breed and every kind of owner - from movie producer's spoiled poodles to vicious pit bulls.

Cesar is a very impressive and powerful pack leader and I'm totally addicted to this show!

Here's a link to the website about the show:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

[RebelOne]

92. Yes, I have seen that show and Cesar Millan

is a genius at rehabilitating dogs.

[Seabiscuit]

93. Those who believe pits and rotts are harmless sweethearts are deluded.

In a split second even the cuddliest of them can become startled, experience a surge in adrenalin, and maul a child to death. It's in their breeding. Just because they haven't done it yet doesn't mean they never will.

There should be a ban on breeding AND owning these dogs.

I can't fathom why anyone would want to own a pit or a rott any more than I can fathom why anyone would want to own a Hummer. Well, I can imagine, but not identify.

Frankly, this all makes me more than a little angry.

As an attorney who used to represent mauling victims of these creatures until I couldn't stomach it any more, I am appalled that anyone would want to own one, much less try to defend such ownership.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

95. I am appalled that a liberal makes such a sweeping generalization.

It is NOT in their breeding to attack people. I'd like to see where you got that information.

[Seabiscuit]

112. It IS in their breeding to ATTACK! And people are their most convenient

targets, especially children when they are owned as family "pets".

There have been tons of studies done on this subject. It has nothing to do with my being "liberal". It has to do with established fact.

Educate yourself before sounding off so ignorantly and irresponsibly at a fellow DU'er.

[countingbluecars]

120. Yes!

On this very thread pit bull owners have said that a pit bull can become aggressive when it is in heat, when its Alpha human is not present, or when it is around other animals. Why would anyone expose their children or neighbors to such risk?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

121. Um... where do you get YOUR information? I owned a pit bull AND

researched the matter. You have experienced the extreme sensionalization of cases. I *HAVE* educated myself.

Look:
http://www.atts.org/stats7.html

http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html#q7

The American Canine Temperament Testing Association is an organization that titles dogs for passing its temperament test. The test consists of putting the dog into a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers. The dog fails the test if it shows any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic around people. Of all dogs that take the test, 77% on average pass. But among pit bulls who take the test, 95% on average pass--one of the highest passing rates of all breeds.

[Seabiscuit]

127. WTF do you mean "you have experienced the extreme sensionalization

of case."

I handled dozens of dog bite cases. NONE of them were "sensationalized" in that not one of them were ever publicized in the media.

All but one of the victims survived. That's why the vast majority of maulings by pits and rotts don't appear in fatality statistics. Those who didn't were grotesquely disfigured/disabled for life, including a large majority of children. Fatal maulings account for only 1-2% of all serious maulings.

During those years I did a lot of studying about the issue - legal studies, not sensationalist MSM sources. I learned about the breeding and their propensity to attack children especially unexpectedly even with the most caring of upbringing. I don't have to search the internet for new sources of this information for you. If you're interested you can conduct your own investigations on the 'net.

All of my research was performed prior to the internet being invented.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

130. Cool. I've done my research. We simply disagree.

I know a guy who was mauled by a black lab. In my experience, 100% of maulings that I have seen were by labs. I hesitate to say all labs are evil creatures and the owners deluded.

To each his own.

[Seabiscuit]

132. The extremely limited research you've posted is ludicrous.

Go ahead. Rely on it. Continue to own a pit bull. One day you'll be sued because your "sweetie" just mauled some kid down the street. Don't ask me to represent you when that happens.

And if losing a bundle and your "sweetie" doesn't bother you, maybe, just maybe someday your conscience will.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

134. Like you... I am not obligated to post research here to convince YOU...

No worries, I wouldn't DREAM of having such a closed-minded person represent me in any matter.

[Seabiscuit]

136. Why do I get the feeling I'm being "dogged" in this thread?

Hire someone who you consider open-minded. You'll still lose and pay through the nose, and you'll regret your current thinking for the rest of your life.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

139. "Dogged"... cute. Not the intention - but you are making HUGE

sweeping generalizations. You really are. And you *CONTINUE* to imply that *ALL* pits will eventually maul or maim. That's unreal to me. But... more importantly - totally untrue.

I understand that the only exposure you've had with pits has been completely ugly and horrific. That's a true shame. I have known dozens who have never harmed a single living thing.

It's a shame. Again... we just disagree.

[Serial Mom]

334. You think you're being "dogged" - you and half the others here

are attacking CLW like the breed you think you know about just because of her viewpoints! She never defended any dog that killed or harmed any person or another animal.

And if you bothered to look at her threads about her pit you would notice she said he "was" a great dog - so she doesn't have to wait until her dog attacks anybody to see if you might want to "represent" her!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

183. I wouldn't represent you, no, I would not

But, I'd appreciate if you'd give my name and number to the person your dog mauls.

[Megahurtz]

271. Duh...uuhhhh.....

Seabiscuit is an Attorney that has represented mauling victims of dogs. HELLLOOOOO!!!!! That's where he/she gets the information!:think::think:

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Megahurtz]

280. I don't need to be "asked".

And neither does anyone else.
You don't own this message board.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

284. Well, your ""Duh...uuhhhh...."

is damn close to a 'personal attack'.

I dunno about you, but I sure don't take every word out of every attorney's mouth as gospel. I was asking him to source his info on the statement:

"It IS in their breeding to ATTACK! And people are their most convenient targets, especially children when they are owned as family "pets". "

He said "There have been tons of studies done on this subject."....

I wanted him to show me one.

[Megahurtz]

301. Uuuuhh.....Helllooo...

Just for your information, the "ARE YOU HIGH" comment was made by a different poster , not by me.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

302. You're right, I caught it and edited.

But, your implication that I did not THINK when I asked was out of line.

[Megahurtz]

306. I just caught your edit,

but I felt that you were slamming Seabiscuit, so I don't feel it was out of line.

Attorneys have to do immense studying and research to be experts in what they do, and to win cases.
I thought that most everyone knew this as common sense, so this is why I may have implied that you weren't thinking.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

182. So..........

.....now you represent victims of vicious poodle maulings? Or those horrible Springer Spaniels and their inbred killing ways?

Who's taking care of the people attacked by all those chihuahuas, mad creatures run amok? What about the people ripped apart by those vile border collies? In fact, how about the folks left with permanent disabilities after a go-round with mixed breeds?

The crap I'm reading here about how placid and docile and what sweethearts "my" pit bulls are just turns my stomach. They're inbred, they're beyond redemption, and each and every one of them should be put down.

What's worse is that a child was murdered by one of these worthless mutants and people aren't quite able to process that because 'their" pitbulls are such "sweethearts."

Yeah. Until your pit's jaws are clamped down on your forearm and you lose it. Then tell me how sweet your pet is.

[Occulus]

195. Wheee! Brushes the size of the side of a BARN!

And in multiple colors, too. Wow.

[RebelOne]

202. Well, I am defending the ownership

because I have owned both breeds. I would rather own a Rottie or a pit than a cocker. My son has a cocker that is 100% more vicious than any pit or Rottie. My Rottie is a sweet, good-natured baby as was the pit I had at one time.

[Balbus]

309. You're as wrong in this thread as you were in the other.

Pits are bred to be NON-AGGRESSIVE to humans. It's in their breeding. If a Pit is aggressive to a human/child for any reason, it has to do with the way it was trained and raised - not breeding.

[ConsAreLiars]

96. Horses kill far more people than do dogs of all breeds combined

The media who make "trends" out of single events are either deluded ingnoramuses or they are deliberately deceitful. Maybe both.

A person is four times more likely to be killed by lighting than to be killed by a dog.

Odds of accidental death by cause: http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

The figure for horses is not explicit in the above link (presumably a high proportion of these two categories - "Animal rider or occupant of animal-drawn vehicle" plus "Bitten or struck by other mammals"), but is estimated here http://www.anapsid.org/pdv-boid.html to about 15 times those killed by dogs.

(Edit typo)

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

100. Is the doggie in your sig a pit??

Beautiful....

[ConsAreLiars]

116. Street urchin thought to be a pit bull

of the AmStaf variety by the vet, seen as a dreaded "brindle" on the street, and the smartest and most gentle dog I have ever known. Will NOT fight even when attacked, but will get her hackles up if her owner (not me) is threatened.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

123. Because they ARE one of the gentlest breeds... see here:

http://www.atts.org/stats7.html

[TX-RAT]

232. What is the genetic difference between a Staf and a Pit?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

233. There are several breeds called "pit bulls". One is the Stafforshire

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

" bulls include the American Bulldog, American Pit Bull Terrier, and American Staffordshire Terrier, although the name is also often used to refer to crossbreeds and other breeds of similar characteristics. "

[TX-RAT]

249. Staf is AKC registered and the Pit Isn't, is that correct.

I always felt the Staf's were just Pits registered under another name. Especially since I've seen no genetic differences between the breeds.

[RebelOne]

307. Pit bulls and American Staffordshire Terriers.

are one and the same.

[TX-RAT]

312. Thats what i thought.

The term Staffordshire was used when AKC refused to recognize the American Pit- bull Terrier as Breed.

[Coventina]

104. Yeah, kind of like bison being the most deadly animals in Yellowstone

People get all hysterical about wolves, bears and mountain lions, when it's the bison that kill more people.

It's totally silly that people get all riled up about these things.

It was a tragedy what happened. Any powerful animal is a threat to a child, or even an adult. But it's so much easier to have a focus for your hatred and paranoia, like pit bulls.

[bloom]

118. People don't invite lightning into their home

Ok - maybe somebody does - but that would be pretty weird.


So the question is - do want a type of dog that on average kills 6 people in the US/year?

Or would rather have a type of dog that on average kills 0 people in the US/year?


I would choose the type of dog that kills 0 people.

[Occulus]

196. Six, Out of HOW many dog owners?

Try some perspective next time.

GOD, I am getting REALLY sick of the generalizations being made (ALL OF A SUDDEN, this is RECENT, folks) being made across this board.

It's almost as if we've been invaded or something.

[bloom]

229. Pit Bulls cause more than 50% of serious attacks (are 3% of dogs).

"In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks."


"Of the estimated 4.7 million people who were bitten by dogs in 1994, 800,000 sought medical care."

http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/DogBiteStatistics.html



So one can expect about 400,000 serious attacks from pit bulls. I read there are 500,000 pit bulls in the US. Some of the attacks would be from the same dog - but it's not very good odds for having a pet.

If pit bulls were the only possible choice of a pet - people might have some argument. I don't see any reason why anyone would have one - except as a weapon.

The incidence of the dogs killing people is only part of the story.

And people admit they use the dogs for intimidation. How nice it that for those of us who don't like being intimidated and harassed by other people's dogs - ie. walking down the street.

[Seabiscuit]

119. IOW, napalm accounted for less than 0.1% of Vietnamese casualties,

ergo it's harmless.

That's the most facetious argument on this planet.

[ConsAreLiars]

131. What nonsense

That is a just plain silly comparison. Who said dogs are all harmless, besides you in your preposterous analogy. Comparing dogs to napalm is just bizarre.

The argument being made by some here is that the number of people killed by dogs like pit bulls justifies banning, extermination, etc. If they were actually concerned about deaths caused by animals, instead of simple-mindedly buying into the media hype and scare-mongering, they should target horses first.

[Seabiscuit]

146. I have yet to see the argument you claim people are making here

"that the *number* of people kllled by dogs like pit bulls justifies banning, extermination, etc."

The argument I keep seeing people making is that it is the pit bull's *breeding* that makes them dangerous.

And I wasn't comparing dogs to napalm. I was applying your logic to Vietnam.

[Walt Starr]

101. Understanding why certain breeds of dogs can "snap" requires

an understanding of what the breed was originally bred for.

Pit Bulls were bred for a single purpose. Fighting one another (quite often to the death) in "pits" for the enjoyment of humans. The breed developed extremely powerful jowls from selective breeding. The dog can bite down forcefully and hold on. I've seen a person who owned a pit bull train the dog to jump up and grab a skin of rawhide leather, then hold on for five minutes without letting go.

The breed is dangerous because of the characteristics selected in the process of developing the breed. No amount of loving care will alter the fact that the breed was designed from the outset to be a killer.

Look at the jobs other dogs were bred for.

Mastiffs - bred to accompany gameskeepers to track and overpower poachers. This makes them potential killers.

Rottweiler - probably originally a herding dog, its more modern breeding suggests a guard dog and police work, hence it can be a killer.

Doberman - Bred as a guard dog and was used in war, hence it can be a killer.

German Shepard - Bred as a guard and war dog, hence it can be a killer.

There are other "war dog" breeds as well. Look to the history with these animals and a lot becomes clear.

Edited to correct a breed name.

[Coventina]

114. Bull Mastiffs were bred specifically NOT to maul or bite

Please read up on the breed more before passing judgement.

Yes, they are "potential killers" due to their size and strength, but so is any adult human. A mistreated, trained to fight bull mastiff might be vicious, but that would be an aberration.

Bull Mastiffs are more usually used as "bait dogs", because they are NOT vicious. The fighting dogs use them as "practice" because they are the right size, and generally do not fight back and injure the "prize fighter".

[Walt Starr]

117. I apologize, I meant the Mastiff, not the Bull Mastiff

My error. The Bull Mastiff included the English Bulldog in the breeding specifically to have a dog which would hold the poacher and not damage or kill them.

Again, my apologies. The Mastiff was the killer.

[bloom]

124. History of the pit bulls

From Answers.com

You can also see:

United States propaganda poster used during World War I depicting a pit bull

The ancestors of modern pit bulls, English and French bulldogs, and other related breeds were powerful mastiffs bred for farm work. Specifically, these dogs accompanied farmers into the fields to assist with bringing dangerous bulls in for breeding, castration, or slaughter. The dogs, known generally as bulldogs, protected the farmer by subduing the bull if it attempted to gore him. Typically a dog would do this by biting the bull on the nose and holding on until the bull submitted. Because of the nature of their job, bulldogs were bred to have powerful jaws, muscular bodies, and the resolve to hold onto a violently-struggling bull, even when injured.


Eventually these dogs' purpose inspired the widespread practice of the bloody sports of bull-baitingand bear-baiting. Bulldogs are believed to have been bred with terrier breeds in order to produce a more muscular, compact, and agile dog for these competitions. The resulting dogs are known asbull-and-terrier breeds, and modern examples include all pit bull-type dogs. In Elizabethan England, these spectacles were popular forms of entertainment. However, in 1835, bull-baiting and bear-baiting were abolished by Parliament as cruel, and the custom died out over the following years.


In its place the sport of dog-fighting gained popularity. Dogs were bred for specific traits useful in the dog-fighting ring, refining the agility, gameness, and power already present in the bull-and-terrier breeds. They were also bred to be intelligent and level-headed during fights and unaggressive toward humans. Part of the standard for organized dog-fighting required that an owner be able to enter the ring, pick up his dog while it was engaged in a fight, and carry it out of the ring without being bitten. Dogs that bit their owners were culled. As a result, Victorian fighting dogs (Staffordshire Bull Terriers and, though less commonly used as fighters, English Bull Terriers) generally had stable temperaments and were commonly kept in the home by the gambling men who owned them.


During the mid-1800s, immigration to the United States from Ireland and England brought an influx of these dogs to America, where they were bred to be larger and stockier. The resulting breed, the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier, also called theAmerican Pit Bull Terrier, became known as an "all-American" dog. Pit bull type dogs became popular as family pets for citizens who were not involved in dog-fighting or farming. In the early 1900s they began to appear in films, one of the more famous examples being "Petey" from the Our Gang shorts (later known as The Little Rascals).

http://www.answers.com/topic/pit-bull

[Walt Starr]

126. Not so true today

Underground dog fighting has created a Pit Bull Terrier that is far more viscious and potentially deadly than the Victorian age model.

Dogfighting is illegal and the "sport" is far more violent than in the past.

If one spends the money to get a registered American Staffordshire Terrier with a good bloodline, there will most likely be no problems. Unfortunately, most "pit bulls" are from bloodlines used in underground dog fighting.

[sled]

171. Never let the facts...

stand in the way of an erroneous opinion...

Walt, you seem to make one argument, in one thread, & oppose the same argument in another thread.

SEE: Bill to equip ammo with serial numbers passes (CA) state Senate

Every study I've seen, so far, points to irresponsible owners, not to the specific breed. Much the same argument concerning firearms.

"Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998"
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf


******************************************

The Rottweiler - By Gene Blackman

http://www.rescueeverydog.org/rotty_history.html

These dogs have very calm dispositions which make them quite suitable for companion animals and for family protection. Although the Rottweiler at one time was the most popular dog in the United States, it is now the second or third most popular dog as a pet.

The Rottweiler is a very intelligent dog with a strong desire to please it's master. Rottweilers crave attention, they are very loyal, and devoted. If they sense that their family is in eminent danger, they will defend their family just as any other dog would do. As with any other large dog, the Rottweiler requires a dominant master who is familiar with handling large dogs. Any dog, which is not properly trained, can and may challenge the authority of their handler.

[Walt Starr]

172. Pit bulls were bred to fight and kill

it's plain and simple.

[sled]

178. Maybe...

not so plain, or simple...opinion vs. fact.

http://www.ukcdogs.com/breeds/terriers/americanpitbullterrier.std.shtml

History

Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland, and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers, looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog. The result was a dog that embodied all of the virtues attributed to great warriors: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. Immigrants brought these bull and terrier crosses to the United States. The American Pit Bull Terrier's many talents did not go unnoticed by farmers and ranchers who used their APBTs for protection, as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions. Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility, Protection, and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation.

The United Kennel Club was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. U.K.C. founder C. Z. Bennett assigned U.K.C. registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett's Ring in 1898.

[Walt Starr]

179. So every pit bull is AKC registered

and was bred from bloodlines that are for nothing more than show?

If you buy that, I have some land in the Everglades to sell you.

[sled]

209. Hell yeah...

If you do truly own land in the Everglades, & the price is right, I would absolutely be interested in purchasing it. Undoubtedly, you know about as much about land in the Everglades, as you do about canines.

That link was from the UKC. The AKC only registers American Staffordshire Terriers, which they don't consider "pit bulls", but technically the dogs that so many believe to be "pit bulls", are only part American Pit Bull Terrier, & therein lies the rub. Without a DNA test & pedigree analysis, to confirm that a dog is indeed a "pit bull", there is absolutely no way to know it's lineage, just as the study from the CDC stated. Also, as the study says, when these ordinances are employed, Constitutional issues arise, & since you "100% literally" support our Constitutional protections, it seems a little hypocritical that you would be for, & against them, from thread, to thread.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Excerpt:

In addition to issues surrounding which breeds to regulate, breed-specific ordinances raise several practical issues. For optimal enforcement, there would need to be an objective method of determining the breed of a particular dog. Pedigree analysis (a potentially time consuming and complicated effort) combined with DNA testing (also time-consuming and expensive) is the closest to an objective standard for conclusively identifying a dog’s breed. Owners of mixed-breed or unregistered (ie, by a kennel club) dogs have no way of knowing whether their dog is one of the types identified and whether they are required to comply with breed-specific ordinances. Thus, law enforcement personnel have few means for positively determining a dog’s breed and deciding whether owners are in compliance or violation of laws.

Some municipalities have attempted to address this classification issue of unregistered and mixed-breed dogs by including within their ordinances a description of the breed at which the ordinance is directed. Unfortunately, such descriptions are usually vague, rely on subjective visual observation, and result in many more dogs than those of the specified breed being subject to the restrictions of the ordinance.

When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be under inclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process. Despite such concerns, a number of breed-specific ordinances have been upheld by the courts.1

[TX-RAT]

261. How about a link to support the DNA difference.

Between Pits and Staff's

[sled]

311. Huh?

"...which they don't consider "pit bulls". Talk to the AKC, that's their position.

The CDC report covers the rest with a very, very detailed explanation about why this breed specific, ban a dog nonsense is.......well, nonsense.

There's so much hypocrisy in the idea of outlawing dogs, which if carried to the ultimate conclusion would doom certain breeds of dogs to extinction...save the tigers (maneaters), kill dogs...

[TX-RAT]

314. Whats that have to do with my question?

Is there a DNA difference between Pit-Bulls and Staffordshire's?

[sled]

360. The point was...

just as the CDC report states, if you're not prepared to do "pedigree analysis" & DNA testing, there's no way of knowing what breed a hound may be. Sort of like what the definition of is, is...

Considering the government is beyond broke, who's going to do all this BS, who's going to pay for it, & who gets to ultimately decide, what is, is? The simpler solution, as the CDC report states, is to approach each on a case by case basis. Your dog "mauls" someone, or exhibits aggression, you're responsible, simple as that...same as if little Jr. shoots up the school. Hold the parents (owners) accountable, because they raised the little heathen, instead of allowing the irresponsible losers a free pass, & blaming, the blameless.

As to your question, as far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevant, & not worth my time. Search the internet, you'll find your answer.

[TX-RAT]

367. not worth my time.

Could that be because there is no DNA difference between a Staff and a Pit?

[sled]

369. Could be...

Or it could be I've realized, I've been trying to explain something, to someone a few melons short of a bushel...

"And if your dog so much as lunges at me, or touches me in any way, I'd shoot it."

Yeah, right...wooooooo, scary...

[RebelOne]

320. Info from www.realpitbull.com

APBT, AmStaff, Pit Bull?

The American Pit Bull Terrier--APBT is a purebred dog, recognized as a breed and registered by the United Kennel Club, the second largest all-breed dog registry in the country. The American Staffordshire Terrier--AmStaff is registered and recognized by the American Kennel Club. An AmStaff can also be registered with the UKC under the name "American Pit Bull Terrier". As far as this site is concerned, APBTs and AmStaffs are the same dog behaviorally and historically.

"Pit Bull", as used throughout this site, as a general term. It applies to APBTs, AmStaffs, or unregistered (eg. rescue/shelter) dogs believed to be either.

[chopper]

246. gleh

no offense, walt, but you should really do more research into breeding and dogs before you start supporting breed bans.

that's not to say that i necessarily agree or disagree. i have a bulldog, and bulldogs were bred as fighting dogs. and if you or anyone else came to try to take my daughter away from me because you felt it was in the best interests of the county to get rid of any dog you thought could possibly someday be a threat, well, let's just say there'd be major trouble and leave it at that.

but i do see where people come from in this issue, despite, as has been pointed out, you're more likely to be killed by lightning.

but if you want to go about advocating a ban against breeds of dogs, you really should know more about them.

[HockeyMom]

102. My sister-in-law was attacked by a pit bull

about 10 years ago. Her next door neighbor's dog. She was in her own backyard going gardening. The neighbor's dog broke his leash and jumped the fence and attacked her. The dog got hold of her ankle and wouldn't let go. The only thing that saved her was her own German Shepard who attacked the Pit Bull. Another neighbor hear her screams and called the police. The police had to shoot the Pit Bull when it tried to attack them. My sister-in-law had to had a lot of reconstructive surgery on her foot. She tried to sue her neighbor but the man had no money, no insurance, so she got nothing. Just imagine if it had been a child playing in his own backyard?

[vanboggie]

106. I find the prejudice here unsettling

It's like reading posts by freepers bashing us, except the grammar and spelling is much better.

on edit: MOST of the spelling here is better.

[ImADeanDem]

189. My thoughts exactly!

I've been "away" from DU for a while, and just happened upon this thread. "Unsettled" is the perfect word to describe how I feel reading some of these posts. I'm kinda wondering what happened to the DU I remembered!

[bloom]

235. The DU you remember...

from 6 months ago? :eyes:


The same "unsettling" can be said for people who defend these dogs whenever they kill someone.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

238. Who defended the dog killing anyone??

ANY dog that kills or maims should be put down NO question, and its owners held liable.

No, the defending is of the breeds. The defending is of the idea that breeds are bad, that breed specific legislation will help in any way. The idea that "ALL" pits or rotts are inherently lethal is absurd and wrong and nothing but propaganda that folks here are perpetuating. Spreading of myth as truth is disgusting.

The defending is of constitutional rights.

[bloom]

239. A 12 year old was killed - mauled - ripped apart by pit bulls

and all you can think about it defending pit bulls - that is what I'm saying.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

243. I think about it when sweeping generalizations are made. It's a

tragedy, CLEARLY. But, false sense of security if we start to legislate against the breed and silly to think it will solve a thing.

That dog, and ANY who are aggressive should be put down. No question.

[TX-RAT]

262. How about if it kills or maims somebody else's pet.

(ANY dog that kills or maims should be put down NO question, and its owners held liable.)

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

265. Same thing... Oh, and look - Cocker Spaniel??? Wow... Ban 'em!

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/2003/Woman_charged_in_her.pdf

[TX-RAT]

269. If it's dangerous, put it down.

I don't care if it's cocker or not.
No excuse for a bitting dog.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

274. HEY, that's *MY* point, too!!

[Megahurtz]

279. The victim's Constitutional Rights

are much more important than your dog owner's contitutional rights.

And if your dog mauled anyone, that is what it would come down to and you would dearly be paying the price.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

304. If a dog hurts someone, put it down, on that we agree.

The rights I am concerned with are the owners whose dogs have NOT hurt a living thing EVER. Why are their rights in jeopardy? Help me understand why you think that's OK.

[Occulus]

197. the barn-size broad brushes are fairly new

Just arrived in the past couple weeks.

Like what it's done with the place?

Neither do I.....

[ImADeanDem]

210. A very sad turn of events for DU!

:-(

[arthur_d]

107. wow

that's crazy

[lowreed]

108. Why are they called Pit Bulls and not Lap Cows?

Because they have been bread for many,many years to be aggressive as hell fighters.
If you say they just need to be raised properly it seems to me you are arguing against evolution. Owners cannot control these dogs on a leash. I live in NYC and believe they should be banned in the city.

[vanboggie]

111. Actually they are lap cows!

Dogs are BRED, and ours is well behaved on a leash. Your sweeping generalization is much like saying "all New Yorkers are muggers."

[lowreed]

173. We are.

Way to jump on my spelling.
They are bred killers.
Owners can not controll them on a leash.
Ban them from NYC.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

133. They were NEVER bred (yes, "Bred") to fight PEOPLE.

[countingbluecars]

138. But they have killed people!

I get that you love your pit bull, but I hope you are very careful with it around children.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

140. And I hope that *ALL* dog owners are. Seriously.

[countingbluecars]

142. Yes

As a dog lover and owner, I hope that people research what type of dog would best fit their family and lifestyle. From what I have read, a pit bull would never be the right choice for someone who lives with or near children. I specifically chose my dog because it has a "no bite" record.

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

270. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

169. yeah but that wasn't what they were BRED to do!!!!

so it doesnt mean anything!!!!!

:eyes:

[Occulus]

198. Horses have, too

Big horses are more dangerous (alert: sweeping generalization!). Therefore, we should ban Clydesdales (sp?).

:sarcasm:

[lowreed]

174. They are bred to be killers.

[TX-RAT]

263. Actually they were bred to take on things much larger.

[LisaL]

129. Yea. I bet chiwawas kill people every day. We just

don't hear about it.
:eyes:

[Patiod]

223. It's MSM conspiracy that we don't hear about Chihuahua attacks

Might reflect badly on Taco Bell Chihuahua

Actually dachshunds are not all that great with kids, according to some studies I've read. We used to have one named Oscar who loved to bite people's noses. Adults found this amusing, children did not - and he preferred children's noses, because they were easier to get at. Parents always let their kids pet "the little hotdog", and we would tell them, "honey, don't do that, he likes to bites noses", and the adult would poo-poo us until Oscar did indeed bite their kid's nose, and then they huffed away, looking betrayed that the cute little weiner dog wasn't so nice.

But the thing was, there was never stitches, hospitals, plastic surgeons, blood transfusions, guns or undertakers involved when our dachshund bit people.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

226. Bold statement... "never stitches, hospitals, plastic surgeons..."

But, not true - here's at least ONE dachshund MAULING:
http://www.westwinddogtraining.com/Articles_Etc/Washington_Post/washington_post.html

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

227. Oh look... another

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/May2005/MarionIndianDachLabApril05.pdf

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

267. Look!!! Pomeranian's ARE KILLERS!! Ban 'em!

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

"The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictibility is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)"

[shrike]

335. You can't compare a small breed attack to that of a pit bull

Look, I'm sure most pits are very sweet. But there are a few in my neighborhood and while there has never been a problem with any of them, they ARE powerful dogs. Much more powerful than a chihuahua, dachsund or pomeranian could ever be. That's my only concern with pits -- the damage they can do if they are not under control and IF their owner happens to be in the minority of dog-owner a**holes. Chihuahuas can't jump fences. A chained-up dachsund can't break its chain. You can't compare a small breed with a pit. You just can't.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

342. Or a German Shepherd, or a Mastiff, or a Great Dane, or a Husky....

Or a doberman... or a St. Bernard? What's your point? Why stop at pits?

[shrike]

353. You're the one who posted three times re: small breeds

Not me. Don't know why you're so sensitive about pits.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

354. Because pits and rotts are being subjected to breed-specific legislation.

My point was... you said "You can't compare a small breed with a pit. You just can't."

I meant: Of course, neither can you compare a small breed with the damage that can be inflicted by the larger breeds I mentioned. Years ago it was the Doberman vilified, then the Shepherd... now it's pits and rotts.

Morans with dogs will always exist. Sad and sick but true. Banning one strong breed will push them to abuse another. Then THAT dog will be subjected to BSL? And... just keep going until all large breeds are banned? Would that be ideal? I'm just trying to understand.

[shrike]

356. Read the article below, "Pit Bull, Friend or Killer"

I found it very interesting. It gives a long history of the breed and outlines some of the problems with pit bulls and their owners. Also illustrates why so many people are afraid of them.

Pits need to be regulated in one way -- the underground industry which pimps them as fighters needs to be shut down ASAP. Unbelievable cruelty. You'll see when you read this thing. In it, some idiot insists his dogs die "with their tails wagging." Riiiiight. I'll bet they got to Valhalla, too.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

357. Agreed. Cruelty of the highest form.

[NorthernSpy]

143. update: "Mother Was Never Worried About Pit Bulls"

Mother Was Never Worried About Pit Bulls
Tells ABC7 Pit Bulls Were 'Not Vicious'

The San Francisco mother whose son was killed at home in a pit bull attack says the two family pets were not vicious.

She tells ABC7 she was not worried about her children around the dogs because she never believed the animals could be dangerous
(...)

Maureen Faibish, mother: "Never, never. They're not vicious."

But on Friday, for some reason, they clearly were vicious. The surviving pit bull, Rex, is now in animal control custody; calm, well-behaved, not under sedation, and not showing any signs of abuse or fighting in the past.

Please, pit-bull apologists: stop spreading your 'pits make perfectly good pets' propaganda. Some people are naive enough to believe you. And Nick Faibish is just the latest kid who got torn to bits because of it.

The pit bulls who killed Nick were "wonderful", "sweet-natured" dogs, according to many people. They weren't pulled out of a dogfighting ring, and they weren't ill-socialized beasts belonging to the local meth cook. They were family pets, and their owners had no reason to believe that they were vicious -- except, of course, for the fact that their breed is known to be unusually dangerous to small humans.

Sometimes, the problem really IS the breed. If the Faibishes had chosen beagles instead of pit bulls, they'd still have their son.

[Seabiscuit]

150. Amen.

Over and out.

[Serial Mom]

153. But to have unneutered male and female in heat together

is just not very smart.

Any dog, when in the "mood", can be agressive and this just shows irresponsible ownership even if she trusted them. You don't let kids around that situation.

Heck, ask any mail carrier ... little dogs attack and bite a HELL of a lot more than any big dogs (such as terriers, cockapoos, maltese, etc. And yes, I know their bite does not have the tragic results as that of a big breed, but it can cause the same problems around kids.

So all you that are warning others to keep their so-called unpredicatbale breeds away from kids should also warn other dog owners to keep their little yappy breeds away too!

No dogs for you!

[sevendogs]

162. I appreciate that, but beagles can get into fights

"Sometimes, the problem really IS the breed. If the Faibishes had chosen beagles instead of pit bulls, they'd still have their son."

As the owner of seven of them, I can tell you that they can get cranky with each other...although never with me...unless I get in the middle. But when one female is in season, the boys can get awfully snippy with each other.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

170. apparently you havent read

that Pits are number 3 on the Canine Temperment scale. wake up moran!!!

;)

[countingbluecars]

175. Whoa!

I wonder what you would score on a temperament scale!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

176. i was being sarcastic

i was mocking some posts upthread that said pitbulls ranked 3rd on the "Canine Temperment Scale" (i cant remember exactly what it was called). So anyway, sorry if the sarcasm didn't cross-over very well.

[countingbluecars]

177. My mistake.

I should have reread your earlier posts and recognized your comment as sarcasm.

[chopper]

247. ah...

"stop spreading your 'pits make perfectly good pets' propaganda. Some people are naive enough to believe you. And Nick Faibish is just the latest kid who got torn to bits because of it."

i get it. people who say pit bulls are nominally nice dogs are responsible for the kids death.

i'll call the cops and tell the FBI to get on tracing all the pit-defending DUers so they can be arrested.

sheesh.

[Megahurtz]

287. Thank You. Excellent Post.

"Please Pit-Bull Apologists: stop spreading your 'Pits make perfectly good pets' propaganda. Some people are naive enough to believe you. And Nick Fabish is just the latest kid who got torn to bits because of it".

Kick.:thumbsup:

[Trajan]

145. To not discern between the genetic differences of different breeds ...

and to ONLY focus on the environmental differences, creates a false and misleading line of argument ...

SURELY: IF a dog, no matter the breed, is taught to harm other animals, then OF COURSE it will do so .... and ANY dog is liable to suddenly revert to type, and snap at a perceived threat, even a generally peaceful animal .....

BUT: ...

IF the dog is one of the 'powerful' types, then the damage can be that much worse ... It is one thing if a smaller, weaker dog bites a child, which OF COURSE it could do just as easily as a Rott or Pitbull, it could do 'some' damage ....

On the other hand: IF the dog is a Rotty or a Pitbull, then the damage would be FAR GREATER to the victim, NOT because of environmental stimulus, but because of it's GENETICAL traits ....

There is no denying that these animals possess more deadly and fatal attributes than 'mutts' ... To deny this is misleading and fallacious ....

SURELY a Lion or tiger could be tame as a kitty cat, yet I dont imagine society wishes to see a lot of 'tame' lions and tigers on the streets of their town, no matter HOW tame they seem to be ...

Society, I believe, has a RIGHT, and perhaps an obligation, to protect itself from possible deadly attacks ... Pitbulls and Rottweilers, as well as the other 'dangerous' breeds, ARE different, and should therefore be held to standards that parallel their effectiveness to harm other species ....

I have NO problem with tightly controlling such species ....

or better yet: hold each owner DIRECTLY accountable in a CRIMINAL sense ....

No hiding behind the argument that they 'didnt know' their animal was prone to deadly attacks ....

ANY pitbull or Rottweiler (OR Doberman OR Sherpard OR etc) owner KNOWS the potential of their dogs to harm other species: IF they kill or attack a human being, then the OWNER shold be held criminally responsible .... as well as face civil sanctions ....

There is no free lunch ....

[Mythsaje]

155. Dogs, dog-breeding, and social difficulties

Most people don't really understand dogs. I think there should be classes on dogs and dog behavior in school. Without truly comprehending the animal many humans spend their lives in fairly close contact with, arguments like the ones I see in this thread will continue in much the same vein ad nauseum.

It's both breeding and environment. Pits and Rotties can be gentle, loving dogs, assuming two things...that they are raised in a manner consistent with this behavior, and that they are well-bred, not the product of unscrupulous backyard breeding. As much as I hate the idea of creating more laws, I would prefer to see the backyard breeding of such animals banned entirely. This would allow people who have a vested interest in breeding improvements into the animals to continue to do so while limiting the number of them released to the general public.

What a lot of people don't realize is that dogs are very strongly PACK animals. They see other members of the family as part of their pack. But these people have specific places in this pack structure. A small child will generally be treated with care and compassion until the point the dog begins to see that child as a threat to ITS position in the pack (more common with male dogs than female).

This is particularly true with the so-called "primitive breeds," which are the breeds my wife and I sponsor in rescue organizations. These are such creatures as the Husky, Malamute, and such Asian breeds as the Shiba Inu, Akita, and Chow.

As long as the dog's place in the pack is understood by that dog, you will have very little problem with these sorts of behavioral issues. This is why it is quite important for the actual pack leader, or someone the dog acknowledges as of higher status, to supervise any aggressive or mock-aggressive contact between the dog and someone whose status is more ambiguous. Some dogs must be constantly reminded that it is not THEIR responsibility to maintain order in the pack, or protect their status, but the job of the pack leader.

We don't have kids here, just dogs. But we tolerate very little aggression between the three (One Pomeranian, one Shiba Inu, and one Chow/Jindo cross). We tolerate no food or toy aggression.

Proper breeding and proper environment can make all the difference, regardless of the dog's breed. Most of these incidents involve people who are completely unaware of the social dynamics of human/canine relationships.

No surprise.

[ClarkUSA]

163. Golden Retreiver put down after SECOND attack on child

I dont hear for any calls to ban golden retrievers. If the dog was a pit or a rottie they would had shot it right than and there the first time, no second chance.Ê

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=3062768

'Max' the dog put down after biting another child

(Watertown-WTNH, Mar. 11, 2005 Updated 12:30 PM ) He attracted headlines in 2003 when he attacked a 12-year-old boy. Now, Max the dog has attacked another child, prompting state officials to euthanize him.
...............

"This is not a nip or one single bite. It was several puncture wounds to the cheek and the back of the head," says Lt. John Carroll from the Watertown Police Dept.

A young boy, viciously attacked by a repeat offender whose life so many people fought so hard to save. Not a human, but a dog named Max who first drew national attention back in November of 2003 after biting his owners' 12-year-old son, Cory Pyon.
...............

An appeal from the Pyons saved Max back in 2003. This time, his life was not spared.

[Mythsaje]

168. Because of their popularity

and their reputation for being 'good family dogs' goldens are among the favorite breeds for backyard operations, which promotes serious inbreeding and inherited behavior problems, as well as a lack of early socialization (a very important aspect of a dog's introduction to human society).

[Spiffarino]

180. Staffordshire Terriers, APBTs, & Bull Terriers are outstanding pets

They are smart, loyal, obedient and lovable animals. Like any dog -or human being - they will respond unpredictably to a poor environment, hunger, extreme pain or lack of attention.

I have never had one in my family, but I have known many. One is my daughters, the mother of my two-year-old grandson. He is a sweet and patient dog. Nothing my grandson does ever seems to annoy him.

Having said that, she never leaves him alone with him or ANY dog, just as I would never leave a small child alone with a dog. Most dogs, especially young ones, will attempt to exert dominance. There should always be a dominant adult nearby.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

181. He's beautiful.

And my experience with pits is in line with yours. You're comments about leaving kids alone with dogs is quite right; ANY dog is a potential threat.

My son was 7 when we got a pit. We trained him well (the cat helped a GREAT deal), and never had even the slightest indication of aggressive behavior. All that dog wanted to do was please people... ALL people around him, not just the Alpha human.

[Spiffarino]

185. He's not my daughter's, but looks very much like him

Actually, I found the picture on another website and used it because of the close resemblance. The pictured dog is "Lucy" from the DikCyn kennel in Tennessee.

I don't get why people leave kids alone with dogs. I suppose it's because they don't understand basic dog behavior. I wouldn't leave my child alone with my English Setter until she could control him, and he lets the cats sleep in his bed and eat out of his dish!

Here's my dog:

[dixiechiken]

184. I've never had a pit bull, so I'm not in a position to comment on them...

(Well, not knowledgeably comment anyway.) However, I HAVE had rotties -- both in the past as well as presently -- and I can say unequivocally and without hesitation that they are among the sweetest, most gentle dogs I have ever owned. They are highly intelligent, loving, and have a great sense of humor, making them, more often than not, clownish. I absolutely ADORE the breed and hope I am blessed enough to always have (at least) one in my life.

That being said, however, I am a firm believer that rotties are NOT for the inexperienced or timid dog owner. They are a large dog and they possess a lot of strength; thus, when they attempt to do what ALL dogs do by testing the boundaries and/or asserting themselves as alpha, it takes the confidence of an experienced handler to reinforce the boundaries and re-establish the pecking order. As many here have demonstrated, a large portion of the population is genuinely afraid of the breed. Regardless of where that fear comes from (media hype, previous experience, etc.), the fact remains that the fear exists and those of us who are devoted to the breed share a responsibility to try and assuage that fear. And the best way to do this is by educating people -- showing them that a confident rottie owner with a well-socialized rottie is nothing to fear.




(BTW, :applause:@Cyndee_Lou_Who & Mythsaje for your voices of reason in the discussion. :))

[Kadie]

186. San Francisco mayor hints at pit bull ban

San Francisco mayor hints at pit bull ban
By GREG SANDOVAL, Associated Press Writer

Sunday, June 5, 2005



(06-05) 19:02 PDT San Francisco (AP) --


San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom will meet Monday with animal control officials to discuss what steps to take in the wake of a fatal dog mauling of a 12-year-old boy — and indicated he'll propose a ban on pit bulls in the city.


Newsom outlined his position two days after sixth-grader Nicholas Faibish was viciously attacked in his Sunset District home by one or both of his family's pit bulls.


"We have to be realistic," Newsom said Sunday. "You've got dogs that literally can kill. We've seen it demonstrated. If we can't change people's behavior and make them think what's in their best interest, then that's when government comes along and becomes a bit paternalistic.


"In this town having a pit bull or two or three and three kids is not acceptable because we're not going to deal with the consequences of losing a life."

more...
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/05/state/n190242D19.DTL&sn=007&sc=657

[Bridget Burke]

221. What about the woman killed by dogs in San Francisco a few years ago?

It became "news" because her Lesbian partner sued the dog owners.

The victim died a horrific death & the dog owners were not innocent. But the dogs were NOT pit bulls. A ban against one breed would not have saved her life. Numerous breeds of dog can kill--look to the breeders & the owners.

[Coventina]

231. That makes too much sense...it's much easier to blame animals

Pit bulls are clearly EVIL. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

Therefore, they must be exterminated.

It has nothing to do with evil or stupid owners, nope. A ban on pit bulls will SOLVE EVERYTHING!!!!

[gatlingforme]

188. People that generalize their hate are ignorant and stupid.

To say one hates pit bulls is rediculous and absurd.

[partimevegan]

193. Check Out this Website: Stories in America

http://www.storiesinamerica.org/
http://storiesinamerica.blogspot.com/

Journalist Rose Aguilar leaves the liberal bubble of San Francisco to bring you personal stories from people living in states that overwhelmingly voted for George W. Bush for President.


Memorial Day Matters

On Memorial Day, we spent a good chunk of our driving time listening to conservative talk show hosts on AM radio. They did a great job of criticizing those who oppose the war by calling them unpatriotic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they never criticized the Bush administration for cutting funding for vets' health care, prescription drugs and nursing homes. Why didn't they mention the bill that would have qualified the National Guard and Reserve for TRICARE, the main military health plan? It was defeated by 218-211. What about the bill that would have increased spending by $53 million for troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, including $8 million for treating combat trauma, $9 million for prosthetic research and $6 million for telemedicine to remotely serve National Guard and Reserve veterans. It was defeated by 214-213. If you look at voting records, you'll find that almost every Democratic House member voted in favor of those bills, while every Republican voted against them. I didn't hear any mention of that on the radio; instead Rush Limbaugh asked his listeners to call in with gift ideas for the one-year anniversary of Abu Ghraib.

That evening, we went to a Memorial Day celebration at the White Rock Lake Park in Dallas. In addition to an endless array of "Support Our Troops" ribbons on cars, flags could be found on everything from earrings and hats to lounge chairs and blankets.

Before going in, I got into a conversation with a female police officer on duty.

How do you feel about the war?

I'm not really sure what we're fighting for. I know what I've been told, but those theories have been proven wrong time and time again.

How do you feel about providing healthcare benefits to the troops? A few bills that would have increased coverage were killed in the House.

Why are they killing bills to support the troops? As far as I'm concerned, if you serve this country, you should receive healthcare for life.

What's your opinion of Bush?

I'm too much of a lady to answer that question.


Here are excerpts from a few interviews with people who attended the event.

Kay McGuire, 79, member of the Republican Women's Association of Dallas, TX

What does Memorial Day mean to you?

We think about all our friends and relatives that we have lost, not just in the war that's going on now, but in other wars. It's a sad day, it really is. They said we were getting away from it, but unfortunately since war came, now we're back to square one again.

What about freedom? What does that mean to you?

For me personally, it means that I can go to any church that I please and nobody questions me. We can vote. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't vote, but we have that choice. We can work where we want, educate ourselves if we want, and that's a good feeling. Anybody in the United States can make something of their lives. All they need is the right attitude.

Do you think that's what Bush means when he uses the word freedom?

Yes. He portrays that to the people and I think that's why he's popular even though they say he's losing his popularity. I don't believe that, but of course I might be biased. I happen to like him.

What do you like about him?

His honesty with the people when he talks to them on the radio or on TV. Even though he came from a wealthy family, he's down to earth.

How do you think the war is going?

Not very good because of the insurgency, but I was for it. A lot of people were not, but I was because I thought we were doing it to try to free people who were persecuted. Of course, we're having a hard time from a lot of people and that's not helping matters. And naturally, some of the American people are becoming disgruntled. I am not disgruntled, but I am worried for our men that are in the uncomfortable position of being in somebody else's country. They would love to come home, but they can't until they get the police straightened out. What's hard is you can't trust things you always read in the paper. You have to find out for yourself. If you hear a story, you have to read it from different angles.

Where do you get most of your news?

Fox News. I rarely listen to the other big names because I hear a lot of stuff from them that isn't true.

Like what?

Things are going so badly in Iraq. I talk to friends that have sons over there and they say everything is going well. I also always hear that we're not doing anything over there. Of course we are, but it's not being reported. We're building schools and building water systems. We have helped these people tremendously, but I don't know if they even appreciate it because they don't know whether to trust us or not. You try to place yourself in their position, you really do, and it's not easy.


Zoltan Zsohar, 58, author of "Surviving Through Faith"

I'm from an immigrant family. We moved here in 1950. You have no idea what this country has meant to my family. My parents escaped Hungary during World War II. They lived five years as refugees and had the wonderful opportunity to come to this country in 1950. If you go where we're sitting, we have American flags everywhere. We're so patriotic. We just love this country.

What does the word patriotic mean to you?

It means freedom. We've traveled overseas and we've seen the restrictions and the fear people have about their government. In this country, you trust the government to an extent. The poverty and distrust for anybody in uniform in other countries is incredible. We don't have that in this country.

What do you think of the current climate in this country? Are you a Bush fan?

I'm a Bush fan, but I don't support the war. I've got real problems with what's going on, but I support Bush and his overall efforts. I think he means well, but there is a lot of stuff about the war that really bothers me.

Like what?

The original purpose for the war didn't pan out and everybody knows that. It's a mess over there. We should have learned from Vietnam. You better be right before you go in and start a war and we weren't.

So you know all about the Duelfer report and the Downing Street memo?

Oh, yeah. I know about those. I am concerned about what's happening, but I have to support our government. I was brought up to support the government.

Did you vote for Bush the second time around knowing all that you do?

Yeah, because the alternative wasn't that good.

Were you open to voting for a Democrat?

Yes, absolutely. I wasn't sure up until late into the campaign. I'm not a diehard Republican and I'm not a diehard Bush supporter, but I thank god we voted for Bush in the first election because I don't think Gore would have handled 9/11 well.


Barbara Spruill, 61, works for a Christian ministry

What does Memorial Day mean to you?

It's a time to remember the price for freedom and the men and women who've given their lives and paid the ultimate price. I can choose to have a career. I can choose to marry or be single. I can choose what church to go to or not. It's the freedom to choose.

What do you think Bush means when he says freedom?

I assume that he means people deserve the same freedom I have in America. The freedom to vote. The freedom to travel. The freedom to worship as I choose. The freedom to have a career and live my life the way I want to live it. Our nation is founded on the principle that people have rights and one of those rights is the freedom to pursue liberty and happiness. I think that's what he means when he says freedom. I hope that's what he means.

Are you a fan of Bush?

Well, I voted for him. I certainly don't agree with all of his decisions, but I'm sure he wouldn't agree with all of my decisions. I voted for him because I agree with him morally. He's a man of conviction and he says what he means.

What do you mean when you say you agree with him morally?

I'm a Christian. When I say that, I mean that Jesus Christ was the son of God. I believe the Bible is a word to us from God and shows us how he wanted us to live our lives. When I say moral values, I think he holds dear those same values that the Bible addresses and that God holds. I think he has those values.

How do you feel about the war?

I hate war. It should be the last option, but I think there are some people who give you no choice. I think there are times when war is necessary. I don't know if the war in Iraq was necessary. I don't know that any of us know that. You have to have a lot more information than I have to know that. I have to weigh the information I get and then make a decision as to whether it was necessary.

Where do you get your information?

I prefer Fox, but I watch the others because I like to know what other people are thinking. It's important to do that.

In terms of information, the Duelfer report says weapons of mass destruction didn't exist. Have you heard about the Downing Street memo?

No.

It's not getting much press. It's a British memo with notes from a meeting with Tony Blair. It said Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action, but the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. So basically, it was war first, weapons second, not the other way around.

I know that the weapons of mass destruction was the main reason. Whether there was deception there, I don't know. The result of the war will turn out to be good because I think the majority of the Iraqis hated their lives and hated the way they had to live. Did we go to war over weapons of mass destruction or did we go to remove a ruthless, evil man? We can beat that horse to death. Regardless, we are where we are and I think we're in a good place. I don't think we'll dethrone all dictators. There are dictators everywhere that don't threaten America, but I think he threatened America.

How?

We know at one time he did have weapons. Whether he got rid of them or whether we haven't found them, we don't know.

How do you feel about the fact that we supported Saddam at that time and sold him the weapons?

Again, I don't have all the information.

What about domestic issues?

I'm not sure about education and social security. The jury is out on those two issues. With 9/11, so much of the focus has had to be on other things. Domestic issues have moved to the back burner, but I think they're getting more attention, so we'll see.

Do you always vote Republican?

No, I vote for the person. My father was a staunch Democrat and he always voted for Democrats. I was raised in a Democratic family, but in my 30s I decided that I was going to vote for people that I could align myself with. I happen to agree more with the Republican platform right now because they're more aligned with my values.

[vard28]

194. Any breed of dog can be...

...unpredictable. When I was three years old, our six year old loving, family pet miniature poodle almost bit my eyeball out of my head when I was trying to retrieve a piece of toast that I'd dropped on the floor. He'd never had ANY previous behavior like that.

I was also, as a pre-teen, severely attacked by a next door neighbor's chihuahua. It was completely unprovoked. When my mom went over to speak with the adults of the household about my subsequent trip to the hospital for stitches via ambulance ride, that same beast ran out the door and attacked her. Her bites also required stitches.

My ex-sister in law had an adorable cocker spaniel that bit several people.

Any animal can be unpredictable, as well as any person... but that, of course, is a whole other can of worms! :D

[entanglement]

200. Why do people keep such aggressive animals as pets?

These suburban types probably got the dogs for 'security' from 'threats'; What a terrible price to pay for (in)security, I'm very sorry for the parents of the poor kid.

[RebelOne]

203. Yes, I have my Rottie for security.

Even though she does not have an aggressive bone in her body, I feel secure having her. I am a single female living alone. There have been home break-ins in my neighborhood, across the street and next door to me. I think that any prospective burgler would think twice about trying to break into a house where a Rottweiler lives.

[staticstopper]

204. Indeed

Pit Bulls should be banned.

I'm from Detroit, so I've had to read about it way too much...and I won't tell you about all the wonderful pit bulls that have been part of my life, just to try to convience ppl that I'm unbiased cause I know you won't buy it. yet-

Why have dogs around that were built to kill??? (simple question)

It never ceases to amaze me.

Have look inside one of their mouths and at their jaws to get an idea.

The Pit owners I have gotten to know have anger issues. Maybe it's a coincidence.

A very strong adult person cannot open their jaw if the dog wants it to stay closed.

But that is my $0.02

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

205. Read the CDC report carefully. Don't just skim the pretty graphics.

There are a few important MISconceptions. And, our rights... YOUR Constitutional rights are in jeopardy.

Link: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

"When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process."

Oh wait.... fuck those silly things called our "rights".... everyone else has!

In addition, the false sense of security would be in breed-specific legislation.

"In 1986, nonfatal dog bites resulted in an estimated 585,000 injuries that required medical attention or restricted activity. By 1994, an estimated 4.7 million people (1.8% of the US population) sustained a dog bite; of these, approximately 800,000 (0.3% of the US population) sought medical care for the bite (332,000 in emergency departments), and 6,000 were hospitalized.9-11 This 36% increase in medically attended bites from 1986 to 1994 draws attention to the need for an effective response, including dog bite prevention programs. Because (1) fatal bites constitute less than 0.00001% of all dog bites annually, (2) fatal bites have remained relatively constant over time, whereas nonfatal bites have been increasing, and (3) fatal bites are rare at the usual political level where bite regulations are promulgated and enforced, we believe that fatal bites should not be the primary factor driving public policy regarding dog bite prevention.

Those Cocker Spaniels should be looked at

In addition, the 'deadliest breed' varies. Oh look...

"...from May 1975 through April 1980 and listed the following breeds as responsible for the indicated number of deaths: German Shepherd Dog (n = 16); Husky-type dog (9); Saint Bernard (8)"

Let's keep making the worst offending breeds extinct till no more stupid owners exist or fucked up accidents occur.

That's the ticket...

[Gormy Cuss]

228. Looking beyond the pretty graphics

Since 1980 the distribution of attacks by breed has shifted and Rottweilers and pit-bull types have been leaders of the pack so to speak. This is probably due to changing preference by consumers but you can not ignore the fact the these breeds (and others, notably the sled dog types) are far more likely to be involved in fatal attacks these days.

The report is good in pointing out the fallacy of breed-specific legislation as a means to curb attacks. The most important suggestion in the report is that rather than blaming the dogs, legislation should focus on making the owners legally liable for the dog's actions. Perhaps then a few more people would take the time to understand the responsibilities involved in raising a good dog.

I like dogs. I've walked dogs professionally and I always say hi to the friendly leashed dogs I meet on the street. I don't own a dog because I know that I have neither the temperment nor interest to raise a well-socialized animal.

[noonwitch]

208. Pit Bulls have been bred to fight, and they have that jaw that locks down

If you know a good breeder, who can trace a bloodline free of any dogs used in fighting, you can find a good pitt bull. They can be trained to be nice. They do have that jaw that locks on to whatever they are attacking-they are not good dogs to have around little kids, because little kids can be really threatening to dogs.

Rottweilers, on the other hand-I've never been around a vicious one. Every person I've ever know who owned a Rottweiler trained it to be an exceptionally nice dog. They are smart dogs, and appear to pretty loyal. When I lived in Detroit, my neighhbors had one and he was such a nice and friendly dog. He rolled around with kids, was gentle with other dogs, and was just a really good dog.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

212. MYTH ALERT!! MYTH ALERT!! MYTH ALERT!! MYTH ALERT!!

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-38,GGLD:en&q=PIT+BULL+LOCKING+JAW

[B3Nut]

215. The "locking-jaw" meme is a myth.

The jaw structure is no different in construction than any other varaint of canis familiaris. If they don't want to let go of something, like any terrier they'll hang on, but that's a matter of will, not the presence of some esoteric mythical "locking mechanism" that tabloid-media wags ignorantly blather about.

Any breed can become a problem, and if the APBT or AmStaff is eliminated, that segment of society that finds it amusing to have a "bad-ass" dog will move onto something else, and there are plenty of options. I've been an American Pit Bull Terrier fancier for going on 13 years, I've been active in UKC conformation showing and served in a UKC-recognized state breed club when I lived in Michigan. My wife is the founder of Wisconsin Independent Pit Bull Rescue and we work closely with Chicagoland Bully Breed rescue <www.chigagopitbulls.org>. Our star dogs Duece (80# pittie) and Weezee (pit/rottie X) are CGC (Canine Good Citizen) certified and perform in humane education programs aimed at elementary and middle schools.

There are problem individuals in any breed; however, this is no reason to condemn all of them. Such is the irrational thinking of racist mouth-breathing Freepers, not intelligent rational progressives. Did DU turn into FreeRepublic all of a sudden?

For those still open-minded enough to listen to reality:

www.workingpitbull.com - animal control officer and trainer Diane Jessup's excellent site. She recently appeared on O'Lielly's show, O'Lielly blathered crap such as is seen on this thread, and wouldn't let Diane get a word in edgewise.

www.forpitssake.org - Cindy Crawford, who works Pit Bulls in Search & Rescue work, work for which they are ideally suited. She posted a statement in reference to the tragic event that recently occurred, and I recommend reading it.

www.pitbullpress.com - good articles, really interesting web design to boot

And here's our Petfinder page for our rescue: http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/WI212.html - Bruce needs a home, and he's a sweetie. He even likes Republicans! :D

Todd A. Phipps
Wisconsin Independent Pit Bull Rescue

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

218. OMG, are you WITH Wisconsin Independent Pit Bull Rescue?

I am in WI... and my son and I would.... be interested in rescuing one!!

[Megahurtz]

248. Call it whatever you want....

When a pit bull bites down in an attack it just won't let go.
Call it whatever you want.

[Dervill Crow]

252. Unfortunately, that's true.

Once they make up their mind to hold on to something, they do.

[short bus president]

216. actually, there's nothing at all unique about a pit's jaw

Bulldogs (English Bulldogs) have the strongest jaws in the dog world. There is no "locking mechanism" - they're just really strong in the jaw owing to the physics of their stout little heads.



They look vicious, don't they? ;-)

[Debau2005]

234. Apartment dogs?

From the article, I got the impression that they were keeping to 80+ pound dogs in an APARTMENT? I do empathsize with the family in their lose, but I also have to wonder why people don't evaluate their living situation before they purchase an animal. Some dogs are not meant to be kept inside, especially in apartments. I have friends that bought a certain breed because it was cute, or large, etc. However they did not take into account the inborn traits of the dog. If you want a quiet, inside dog that does not dig why would you buy a beagle?

So if you want a cuddly dog for your kids why would you buy a rottie, or a pitbull? I was raised with pitbulls on a dairy farm, never had a moment's trouble or a moment of fright from any of them. They were in their element, they were allowed to run the farm, chase off predators, and ride in the pickup with my grandfather like they owned the place. They were not inside dogs!

[Dervill Crow]

251. My pit bull spends most of her time on the couch.

She is encouraged to run around in the yard, and she runs laps in the house once a day, but she spends most of her time either sleeping or watching TV.

[bloom]

237. "The Pit bull, friend or killer?"

7-27-1987. Sports Illustrated.

"America has a four-legged problem called the American pit bull terrier. And the pit bull, its ''ridiculously amiable disposition' ' notwithstanding, has a two-legged problem called Man. These two species are not new to each other. They have intermingled for some 200 years, and some say their common history goes back as far as the Romans. But something has happened to the pit bull in the last decade that says as much about the nature of American society as it does about the nature of this aggressive animal. Far from being an aberration, the American pit bull terrier has become a reflection of ourselves that no one cares very much to see. ''They're athletes. They're wrestlers. They're dead game,'' says Captain Arthur Haggerty, a dog breeder and trainer in New York City who owns five pit bull terriers and has trained hundreds of others. ''They will literally fight till they're dead. If you found that quality in a boxer or a football player, you'd say it was admirable. Will to win. That's what a pit bull has.'' Others call it a ''will  to kill.''

At least 35 communities nationwide have considered banning the breed from within their city limits, and while such ordinances have run into constitutional problems stemming from the difficulty in defining exactly what a pit bull terrier is, their number is growing weekly. The horror stories involving pit bulls are voluminous. Recent tragedies include the death of two-year-old James Soto, who was mauled in Morgan Hill, Calif., on June 13 by a neighbor's pit bull. The attack rendered the child ''unrecognizable as a human being,'' according to paramedics. Nine days later a national television audience watching the evening news was treated to the terrifying spectacle of a pit bull terrier attacking Los Angeles animal control officer Florence Crowell. The 33-year-old woman survived but spent five days in the hospital. On April 6, a retired surgeon, 67-year-old William Eckman, was killed by two pit bulls on a street in Dayton, Ohio. On that same day, 16-month-old Melissa Larabee of Jones, Okla., was killed by the family's pet pit bull, who bit her in the throat. In June 1986, 20-month-old Kyle Corullo was attacked by a pit bull in Ramsay, Mich., while playing in his grandmother's backyard. The dog, fighting off the child's mother, dragged the boy into a nearby lot and shook him to death ''like a stuffed animal.''<snip>

''But the hysteria, or concern, is understandable. To the untrained eye -- or even to the trained one, in many instances -- it is virtually impossible to tell a docile pit bull from a mean one. None of them looks like a wimp, and a friendly pit bull jumping up to lick you to death has an eerie resemblance to a pit bull jumping up to rip out your throat. Your best bet is to pass a fast judgment on its owner. Pit bulls do not usually growl before attacking; they seldom bark. The hair on their backs does not stand on end when they are enraged. These are not dogs given to threatening displays. The pit bull, when so trained, is all business, which has made it the dog of choice for drug dealers and street punks around the country. ''People whose insecurities are such that they need macho reinforcement feel a need for this type of animal,'' says Loew of Tufts, ''and they are available because of the overflow from illegal dogfights.'' ''I just saw a surprising statistic from a Los Angeles study, ''Steve Blackwood, a sergeant in the San Diego Sheriff's Department, said recently. ''In two out of three narcotics raids, pit bulls were used as the guard dogs.'' San Diego investigators also were told that local members of motorcycle gangs were stashing their drugs beneath the doghouses of their pit bulls. ''Street dope dealers and street gangs have gone to pit bulls,'' says Budd Johnson, an inspector for the U.S. Marshals Service who is based in San Diego. Law enforcement officials are seeing the same thing all over the country, and the pit bull populations in urban areas have mushroomed as a result. There have also been instances when pit bulls were used in armed robberies, in effect taking the place of a weapon, and one case in which a 16-year-old girl was raped by a man who allegedly threatened her with his two pit bulls. ''You've got a bunch of kooks out there who are getting these dogs and making them mean and registering them,'' says Andy Johnson of the UKC. ''Every time somebody writes how mean these dogs are, the demand for them jumps up. You can make any dog mean if you work at it.'' Now, and historically, at the core of the breed's problems is dogfighting. This loathsome ''sport'' is, by most accounts, more widespread than ever in the U.S. At the same time it is even less humane, having passed from the hands of the old-time ''gentlemen'' breeders into the mitts of the borderline sadists. Once primarily a rural dementia, dogfighting has become a city problem as well, the outgrowth of the popularity of pit bulls."<more>

http://www.dogexpert.com/Popular%20Press/Pitbullfriend.html

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

242. What's your point??

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/OtherBreedBites/May2005/MarionIndianDachLabApril05.pdf

Associated Press
May 6, 2005
MARION, Ind. — Investigators have arrested a couple after determining that pet dogs — not strays, as originally believed — mauled and seriously injured an 87-year-old woman as she was sitting in her living room.

Julia Beck’s daughter and son-in-law originally told police that a stray Rottweiler and another dog entered the home through a slightly ajar door and attacked Beck.

The Kitchens were at home when their dogs — a Labrador and a Dachshund — allegedly attacked Beck. The dogs were taken Thursday to the Grant County Humane Society.

[shrike]

327. Yeah, they do attract a**holes

My sincerest apologies to all the pit owners on this thread. But you've got to admit, they do seem to have an allure for the small penis crowd. Kind of like the Corvette.

It's also the nature of the pit's bite; they're powerful dogs. You simply can't compare an attack by a dachsund to an attack by a pit.

[MisterP]

328. Sports Illustrated? Murdoch's rags also wail about pits.

[shrike]

330. Read the story. Nobody's wailing

Tells the history of the breed, and the history of its mistreatment at the hands of man.

[Serial Mom]

332. what are you saying by that!?!?

If Murdoch's got an article in his mag about this that dems have to take the opposing viewpoint?

[shrike]

329. P.S. Interesting article. The pit has a tragic history n/t

[saigon68]

273. Crack Dealers use Pit Bulls to Protect the CRACK HOUSE

Crack Dealers have pit bulls to Guard their stash against rival drug dealers and as a first line of defense against the cops.

[Serial Mom]

285. How many crack dealers do you know?

I mean really, it that just a statement you made or is it a fact?

[saigon68]

313. Read up on how many cops get their Nuts bit off in searches

P.M. me

[Serial Mom]

315. Link please?

You just can't arbitrarily state something and not back it up

[ecstatic]

281. Discrimination against pit bulls/rotts?

I don't know... but that's not the first thing that comes to mind when I hear a story like this. We need strict animal/pet owner laws and we need them now so that no other person gets killed!

[AlphaCentauri]

282. Agree.. anyway I don't like pit bulls

.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

298. Hmmm.... I don't 'like' poodles.

Kill 'em all.





:sarcasm:

[Megahurtz]

303. Welcome to DU AlphaCentauri!

:hi:

[vanboggie]

305. I dunno what's happening here

Sounds an awful lot like needing stricter laws so nobody with a feeding tube gets killed when the family wants it removed. Or needing stricter laws so embryos don't get killed.

I'm sorry, but this thread is seeming more and more like it is dominated by those with a narrow minded conservative view - very Un-DU like.

AGAIN I will say that I had the same misconceptions about the pit bull breed that most of the participants in this thread have. Then I learned more about them, now I have one. She loves kids. Kids love her. She is not a killer. She won't snap anymore than my old Collie did when she bit a kid in the face when grabbed suddenly - or a poodle, or any other breed. She got in a fight with our OTHER dog when our OTHER dog (not a "killer" breed) instigated the fight. The pit bull was the easiest to stop. The pit bull is the one who got hurt. The pit bull doesn't like to fight.

So stop it already, please? And I don't like poodles either.

Edited to fix freeptard spelling...

[janx]

310. Pit bulls are so misunderstood.

They're beautiful and loyal dogs, but some of them have been raised and tortured into madness. The crime is not what the dogs do, but how the humans who have tortured, confused, and abused them. The prettiest one I ever saw was sitting quietly, leashed, at a rest stop on a New England highway. My children were very small. I wasn't too familiar with the breed then, but I'm a dog lover and I instantly fell in love with her--and she with me and my kids.

My neighbor has a Staffordshire terrier mix that some moron, walking on the other side of her fence, thought was a full pit bull (because it's basically the same breed). The moron actually called the police.The dog had done nothing.

[bloom]

348. The pro-pit bull sites

remind me of all of Men-as-Victims sites.


There sure are a lot of them. Pit Bulls as Victims and Men as Victims.


What's up with that?

[nikraye]

319. Must-see Video

I've got a Pittie cross we adopted from the local Humane Society and, of the many different breeds I've had over my lifetime, she is the sweetest and gentlest.

In the 70s, it was the Doberman that was villified

In the 80s, it was the Rottie,

And now, it's the Pit Bull.

Pitties are being overbred by irresponsible backyard breeders. Pitties and Pit crosses consstitute the majority of shelter dogs. The reason there might be now more reports of Pitties involved in attacks and or bite cases is simply due to their disproportionately high numbers.

Watch the video and learn.

http://www.pitbullproblem.tk/

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

321. Very moving.... and ***** GRAPHIC *****

I saw that earlier.

thanks!

[B3Nut]

322. You beat me to it...

I was about to post this link.

We placed two neglected pitties surrendered by the manager of a former CHicago Bulls player. Both were ingnored and neglected, yet blossomed when put back in a loving environment. One went to a family in northern WI, and the other we kept. Cain (who has no brain, hehe) chased his tail a lot when we took him in, and he didn't know what treats were, what stairs were, what a couch was. Now he doesn't chase his tail hardly at all, and his personality has come out. He loves the sofa and likes to try and get in your lap for a hug.

Cain-> http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=110773&j=t

But that video is moving. It speaks the truth.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[nikraye]

326. Re: Cain's Dogster page

Cain has a great smile! You're a true friend to the breed. Thank you for all the rescue efforts on behalf an undeservedly maligned breed.

Here's our sweet Lucy's dogster page: http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?i=127476&j=t

There's also a great org based here in the Bay Area that rescues Pit Bulls, and strives to educate the public on the breed's history.

http://www.badrap.org

[B3Nut]

331. Yup, I know badrap...

good organization. Lucy's a cutie!

Speaking of Cain, he wants in...kinda hot out and I've got the AC running inside... :)

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

341. OMG, Cain is awesome!!

And, I agree... :toast: to all the wonderful work you and the others at Wisconsin Independent Pit Bull Rescue do!! :yourock:

Here was Sam, may he RIP:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3393072&mesg_id=3393072

[vanboggie]

323. Excellent!

Thank you, Nikraye. That video says it all. Knowing how sensitive and loving these dogs are, it breaks my heart to see them abused. The love in their hearts is boundless.

[Megahurtz]

339. The most dangerous in this video

Are the innocent-looking starry-eyed naive human beings posing with their seemingly loving pet Pit Bulls. Some people on this board do not know animals.:eyes:

As long as we have negligent people in denial, we will continue have dog maulings.

"The breeds most often involved in FATAL attacks are Pit bulls and Rottweilers":

http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/DogBiteStatistics.html

I worked for the Postal Service as a Letter Carrier for over 12 years. I have been bitten once (by a Dachshund) I was charged by a Pit Bull once and I have been attacked so many times by various breeds of dogs I can't even count.

Another carrier I worked with was severely mauled by another Pit Bull on one of my routes, enough to need major plastic surgery. In this line of work you get to know animals, especially dogs real quick.

Much of the people on this board have all the same thing in common with the dog owners whose dogs attacked me, and other Letter Carriers. It's:

"Oh my dog is so sweet he/she WOULD NEVER hurt anyone!!!"

There was a lady at one of the houses I delivered mail to whose dog lunged at me. I told her that her dog tried to attack me. She said "Oh he's so sweet he would NEVER do that!" She had a hold of his collar and he was pulling it taut, growling, drooling and baring it's teeth with it's hair on it's back standing on end.

The next week this very same dog attacked me because the dog was out.

Any of you have a dog that barks at the mailman? Is it a dangerous breed like a Pit Bull or a Rottweiler?

If so, that should give you a pretty good indication that NO, my dog is NOT that sweet that he/she would never attack anybody - BULLSHIT!

And if your "sweet loving" dog bites the mailman not only will the Postal Service sue your ass for all they can get, but they will criminally charge you. (because after all, they are the Feds)

Do you think that a dog barking at or attacking a Mailman is normal??? Think again!

If your dog cannot distinguish the difference between a real intruder or the safety of a delivery person, meter reader etc., then that dog is capable of attacking anyone. It's their instinct.

So go ahead, have a Pit Bull or a Rottweiler. But be a responsible Pet Owner and don't be ignorant, neglectful, and don't be a dumbass!!!:banghead:

Your dog is capable of inflicting damage on other people so

Keep it restrained!!!

[nikraye]

345. Keep MY DOG restrained???

I ALWAYS keep my dogs restrained and under leash control whenever we are outside of our house. Yet it is people with "friendly" dogs--labs, shepherds, Aussies, spaniels--who think that because THEIR dog is friendly, they don't need to keep their dog on a leash! Countless times, I and my dog, which is always leashed, have been set upon by these "friendly" dogs and their STOOOPID owners. Just because their dog is friendly, it doesn't mean ALL dogs are. There are MANY dogs that, though perfectly gentle with people, are dog aggressive, especially when they are constrained by a leash, and when accosted by a loose dog, most leased dogs will act defensively. And when their "friendly" dog, who runs over to accost my leashed dog, gets growled at or snapped at, they get mad at me and my dog. Well, hell, if they had leashed their dog, as is required by law, their dog wouldn't have been in the position to have gotten hurt from a leashed dog making a defensive posture.

In all my experiences of this kind, it's not been a pit or a rottie that these STOOOOOOPID owners so inconsiderately let run loose, it's always these "freindly" breeds. So stop pointing the finger at only Pit and Rottie owners. Yes, there are irresponsible Pit and Rottie owners, but let me tell you, in my neighborhood there are FAR MORE irresponsible owners of every breed but.

[Megahurtz]

363. I CAN understand totally what you mean

Have you ever thought then that those people are not keeping their dogs restrained?

It's all about boundries.

If you walk your dog on a leash, then there's plenty of idiots who have unleashed dogs that aggressively approach yours! That's fucking wrong!!! This is the same kind of "my dog wouldn't hurt anyone" mentality that I'm talking about.

I agree that it's stupid that some people think that they have a "friendly breed" and they think it doesn't need to be restrained....

Hey, I was a Letter Carrier, I know that's BULLSHIT!!!

And I do know that there are certain breeds that may be more dangerous than others. But there are a lot of mixed breeds as well.

So I agree with you on that, definitely!!! It's the people with the who-they-think-are-friendly-breeds that let their dogs run wild, and THAT'S WRONG.

And, often many people with the dangerous breeds (that are able to kill) think that their dogs are harmless to others, just because their dogs are so loving to them.

So I am not pointing the finger at only the breeds who are most likely able to kill. If you read my previous post you will see I am mostly ranting about dog owner's ignorance.

Yes, the Pits and the Rots have a mean streak, that's just their breeding, that's just the way it is. Even if they are so devoted to you, they physically CAN kill someone else at any given moment, you need to be aware of that.

If you are a truely responsible dog owner then you know what to do. And if I had a dog I loved, no matter what the breed, I would feel just like you do. But you should be aware of what the dangerous breeds are capable of, and act accordingly.

And as far as the other irresponsible dog owners you were talking about, perhaps you should act accordingly to that too.:)

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

346. Um... this applies to WAY more than pit/rott owners.

You need to edit yur post so it's all-inclusive. ALL dog owners should be responsible! And if you don't think so, you're the ignorant one. Pitts, Rotts, Poodles, Great Danes, Labs, Dachshunds.... treat them right and be a FUCKING responsible pet owner.

[Dervill Crow]

373. My pit bull never barks at the mail man.

She doesn't bark at the FedEx guy, the UPS guy, the garbage man, or any other person who comes in our yard or walks down our street. She is ALWAYS restrained when she goes out.

She does bark at squirrels and other dogs. When her tail and her hackles go straight up I tell her to knock it off, and she complies, but I would not want to put it to the test.

[shrike]

377. Glad she's well-trained

The guy next door to us had a pit. Allowed it to roam free -- fortunately or unfortunately, the poor thing was the dumbest dog I've ever met. But he looked scary so nobody went near him. The mail lady used to drive into my yard and honk the horn so that I could come out and take the mail. I wasn't afraid of him.

Always rather liked that dog. He reminded me a little of Frankenstein -- wanted someone to look beyond the exterior and no one would.

[Dervill Crow]

390. Aw, that's sad.

There's nothing uglier than an ugly pit bull, but I still think they are cute.

[Arugula Latte]

336. This thread makes me glad I'm a cat person! nt

[vanboggie]

337. LOL, don't get me started....

I have a cat that terrifies the pit bull :scared:
The cat is 19 and has a vicious animal record with Animal Control!

Edited to add: Unlike our pit bull, I can't defend the cat's temperament.

[Megahurtz]

340. Uh huh, watch out.

That cat just might end up killing somebody.:eyes:


:sarcasm:

[vanboggie]

355. Could happen

She has been called Satan's spawn. :evilgrin:

[Megahurtz]

361. Hey, whatever you're into, Dude.

n/t

[AngryAmish]

365. Why own a vicous animal?

It may excite you, but it is unfair to others.

[vanboggie]

366. A Life Lesson Perhaps???

My daughter was little at the time and pulled the cat's tail and the cat retaliated. Eventually they became best friends and she couldn't sleep unless this cat was curled up next to her. My child learned to love and respect animals as individuals and grew up enjoying the love our animals give her. THAT excites me. Geesh. At least I know she has the insight to never say, "All pit bulls should be destroyed." She knows better, is much more tolerant than that in ALL areas of life, and does not paint with broad brushes. Amazing what animals can teach us, huh?

Though it is funny watching a pit bull shrink from an ancient cat's hisses - further debunking the pit bull fallacies on this board.

[shrike]

372. Pretty expensive life lesson

if a neighbor's kid pulls her tail, if you know what I mean. Kid's parents will want to give YOU a life lesson.

But hey, it's your house.

[vanboggie]

374. That's right, it's my house

How many killer house cats have you heard of? And no visitors - adult or child - are allowed to touch this cat. We own a pit bull, we are not crack dealers, nor have an ego problem. She was a stray nobody claimed, and with mindsets such as yours a wonderful, loving animal would likely have been destroyed had we taken her to the Humane Society.

We also have horses and no we don't let kids play with them either. Is that OK with you?

At least for now, this is still a free country where RESPONSIBLE adults can own animals. We love animals, and with ANY animal, there is a liability risk. Yikes, don't drive you car, you might be sued.

So stop with the know-it-all paternalistic attitude, please. I get enough of that from Republicans I know.

[shrike]

376. Jeez

I'm relying on your description of your own cat. I'm also pointing out the obvious -- if she's a life lesson to your kid, she might end up being one to somebody else's.

(What a thread.)

[bloom]

380. It's funny - I was noticing today

that pit lovers on Free Republic (I decided to see what they were saying for comparison purposes) were worried because some liberals might take their rights away - you know those liberals who want it to be safe to walk down the street and be out in their own yard without being threatened by dogs that kill people.

Those liberals.

[RebelOne]

351. Well, just to let you all know, the only things my Rottie

kills are her squeaky toys. And those can get expensive because I buy her one at least once a week.

[Megahurtz]

358. I understand, Rebel One.

If I were living single, I too, would get a dog that was a protective one. If the dog is loyal to you and can hurt no one else (except an intruder or an attacker of course) then great.

The only thing I have attmpted to point out on this thread is that people should never feel completely secure that their dog(s) are so sweet that they will never attack anyone else.

(Obviously, the people who owned the Pit Bulls that killed their child should have never assumed that.)

Just never underestimate your dog, because however sweet they may be, when it comes down to it they have animal instincts.

They are loyal to you BUT maybe not NOT others.

If everyone can understand this and become accountable for their pets, then the world will be a better place.:)

[dArKeR]

359. This almost happend to me and my dog today in Oregon. These dogs

should NOT be allowed in any state! This was the most terrifying event in my life.

[fleabert]

386. blame the owner.

my chihuahua has food agression, and if she were any bigger and up for adoption then they would put her down. I am responsible and simply don't bother her when she eats, nor do I allow children near her when she eats. I warn anyone who comes over not to reach for her food or bone. It is my responsibility to protect her from herself, and others from her. (why anyone wants to reach for a dogs food or bone is beyond me, but people do)

as an aside, if she were a pit bull, people would be a lot safer approaching her, but since she is small, they treat her like a stuffed animal. she is a dog first, and small second. she acts like a dog!

sorry you had a bad experience, but please don't blame the dog or the breed, blame the owner and perhaps review what happened and consider if you might have done something that provoked it, however accidental I am sure. Just a thought, no flame here.

[shockra]

368. O'Reilly will air a segment on Pit Bulls.

From the DawnWatch e-mail:

Tonight, Tuesday June 7, the O'Reilly Factor, on the Fox News Channel, will include a segment on pitbulls, with two animal rights guests. This is from the show's website:

"Personal Story Segment
Pit bulls under attack
Guests: Actress Linda Blair & Lisa Lange, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
One of the top biting breeds of dogs is the pit bull, and now this breed is making news again after killing a 12-year old boy in San Francisco."

Linda Blair has been fighting breed specific bans, particularly in Denver. PETA is unlikely to back a specific breed of dog but will stand against legislation that results in any loving dogs being forced out of loving homes. It should be an interesting segment. Watch if you can. It airs at 8pm Eastern (5pm Pacific) replaying at 11pm Eastern (8pm Pacific).

[Irreverend IX]

387. Side note: go to www.DOGFIGHTING.com

This article made me curious enough to look for details of dogfighting operations on the Net. So I went to http://www.dogfighting.com... only to find that the URL points to puppyfind.com, a site that helps you find and buy puppies around the world. I wonder why the PuppyFind people want to be the first stop for Net surfers with an interest in dogfighting? Dog lovers may want to let their friends know about this.

[B3Nut]

389. For better (and responsible) info:

Diane Jessup (author, trainer, animal-control officer) has an excellent site:

www.workingpitbull.com

Lots of good stuff there, and good training info for any breed you might be into. She's an advocate of purely positive methods.

Todd in Beerbratistan