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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 09:39 PM
Original message
Syria denies testing of Scud missiles
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=102&go_ahead=doit

Syria denies testing of Scud missiles

By The Associated Press

DAMASCUS - Syria's information minister yesterday denied Israeli claims his country is developing new weapons and that it test-fired Scud missiles last week, calling the accusations an "expression of Israel's hostile intentions."

In remarks carried by Syria's official news agency, Mahdi Dakhlallah said the Israeli allegations were also part of a pressure campaign against Syria.





Israeli military officials said Damascus test-fired three Scud missiles late last week, reinforcing Israeli worries about Syria's ability to deliver a missile-borne chemical attack against Israeli civilian targets. They said one of the missiles broke up over Turkey.

The Turkish military said apparent missile debris from Syria landed on two agricultural villages in the southern province of Hatay, causing no injuries or damage.

more...

Where O Where did the scud missile come from???


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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Israel lie?
No way! They're our buds!

MojoXN
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Welcome to DU!
You'll fit right in here.

Gyre
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. link
www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/international/05syria.html?
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Johnywolf Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Syria's missiles
Edited on Sun Jun-05-05 10:22 PM by Johnywolf
They got missiles from the commies in Russia, lol. Syria and Iran are the real threat, not Iraq. Syrians wanted to destroy Israel for a looong time( though they'll never succeed). They are friends of Hamas and Kizbollah. Also I heard that Israeli intelligence is the best in the world, far better than KGB or CIA, so if they claim that that Syria is developing weapons, it might be true. Russia is so stupid, lol. They are giving weapons to Iran and Syria, when those countries support Chechen rebels, but poor Russia gotta make a living somehow, right? Though Ariel Sharon is screwing with his country. If he gives land to Palis in July, he would make a mistake. Terrorists do not want just this land, they want entire Israel. They will never stop until Israeli army whops their butts. So what if some pali civilians are dead as a result, most of them support terrorists anyway. That is collateral damage. As far as U.S. concern, it should withdraw from Iraq and focus on Afghanistan. Also sanctions should put on Iran, who is desperately developing WMD's. :kick:
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You might want to become a bit more informed before posting
further within DU unless you just want to espouse your personal beliefs. :shrug:

Good place to start.. :+

http://www.blip.tv/link/59
(Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, is a retired U.S. Air Force officer whose assignments included duties as a Pentagon desk officer and in a variety of roles for the National Security Agency. Since retiring, she has become a noted critic of the U.S. government's involvement in Iraq. Kwiatkowski is primarily known for her insider essays that denounce a corrupting political influence on the course of military intelligence leading up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003.)
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Incredible. You have a LOT to learn.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. self delete
Edited on Mon Jun-06-05 12:09 PM by Colorado Blue
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Johnywolf Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. If the terrorists are hiding there...
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 01:08 PM by Johnywolf
I am against civilian deaths, but if you don't hunt for terrorists they will hunt for you. When Russians attacked Germany in WW2 a lot of German civilians died. But they HAD to attack Germany in retaliation . U.S. in Afghanistan is currently fighting terrorists, but civilians get killed too. I am not saying that killing civilians is ok. During Vietnam War( which was a wrong war, but anyway) a lot of Vietnamese civilians got killed. I am not a racist, some of my best friends are Arabs. I wish Jews and Arabs could be friends everywhere.It is just that people like you who do not know history make such judgments. The terrorists have to be destroyed. I must be done with minimal civilian casualties.I presume that you are antisemitic for acknowledging the fact that I am Jewish. And yeah, maybe I did not phrase it right when I said collateral damage, I meant that in a war there are casualties, but one has to fight against agressor at any costs. In this case terrorists are agressors. And maybe I did burst out a little bit, but when you see your people getting killed by terrorists there, you get a new attitute about it. One thing is for certain giving palis land will not solve anything. They will terrorize until they get entire Israel (though they will never suceed). Israel has to fight back, if it did not fight back and hunt for terrorists, it would have been destroyed years ago.
:bounce: :patriot:
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ksilvas Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You my friend are seriously delusional
"When Russians attacked Germany in WW2"
Last time I checked, the Germen's invaded Russia, breaking the non-aggression
pact Stalin and Hitler had reached.

"...some of my best friends are Arabs"
Oh my god, this line is a classic, are you practicing a comedy routine?

"people like you who do not know history make such judgments."
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black

"The terrorists have to be destroyed."
One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

"I presume that you are antisemitic for acknowledging the fact that I am Jewish."
This is rich, and it only took two posts before you pulled the antisemitic card.
Maybe he acknowledged your Jewish because you have the Star of David as your
avatar, moron. Since when is it antisemitic to acknowledge one as Jewish. Your not
ashamed of it are you? Maybe your just ashamed of all of the Zionist ethnic cleansing
that you seem to be so fond of.

"when you see your people getting killed by terrorists there"
This, is of course, is the same reasoning the Palestine's use to attack Israelis.

Now which Middle Eastern country has offensive nuclear capability?
Which country has the most modern and mobile army in the Middle East?
Which country practices pre-emptive war?
I'm sure you know the answer to these questions,
I'd pose the answer myself, but I would probably be accused of being antisemitic.

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. What pre-emptive war was Israel involved in? n/t
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ksilvas Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The Six-Day War
"Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol justified the pre-emptive strike on Egypt, Jordan and Syria by saying his country was acting in self-defence."
Man, dosen't that sound familiar.



link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/10/newsid_3047000/3047177.stm
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Johnywolf Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Ok again
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 02:04 PM by Johnywolf
Israel attacked only after Arab countries drew up plans to destroy Israel.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. pre-emptive
King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:

The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.(13)

President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."(14) On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.


Six day war

This also doesn't take into account that Syria had been pounding Israel for more than two years from the North, and Egypt had blocked an international waterway, preventing trade.

Sounds like "pre-emptive" was the right thing to do. If you have standing at your property line threatening your family and home, would you wait until they actually struck or take action?
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ksilvas Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Interesting Source
Yes I'm sure that the
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
lays everything out quite objectively.

The perpetrator of a pre-emptive war will always have
a vast array of rationalizations for there actions, real or fabricated.

Why, we can see that with our current administration,
yet it seems quite obvious now that it was all a ruse.
But what history will say is still being determined in the streets of Baghdad.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Sorry
How about a non-Jewish source....Six day war?

There is a difference between, "we think they might strike us" and the leaders of the countries in questioning ANNOUNCING they will attack. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Well . . .
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

All the time attacking first and without provocation is wrong.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Well...
Waiting for 4 enemy armies to crash your borders is just stupid. And, there was PLENTY of provocation from the armies amassed at the borders of Israel and the blockaded Strait.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. I most politely and courteously invite your attention to
Apppend 42,

and Append 43,

for a discussion of the closing of the Straits of Tiran as a casus belli of the Six Day War. As used in the Corfu Channels decisions, closing the Straits of Tiran, being a casus belli was an attack and a provocation.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Then file your lawsuit.
Until then, let's stick with the facts of the present case. Not to bother you with the facts, but Albania had absolutely-fucking-nothing to do with the Six Day War.

Preemptive war is wrong. Fear does not constitute causus belli, especially not after the fact. It is often used by warmongers, though, intent on violence.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. I think, he was trying to point out that international law
accepts the blockading of a nation's waterways as a casus belli.

The Straits of Tiran were blockaded. That is one of the causes of the 6 Day War although there were others.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Some DUers
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 06:06 PM by Coastie for Truth
when certain issues are mentioned -- act like Pit Bull Terriers -- their testosterone gets elevated -- their adrenaline shoots out of their ears -- the fur on their back goes up -- they bare their teeth -- they hiss and growl.

If you search my appends - you will see that my issue is therapeutic somatic blastocyst/zygote nuclear cell transfer (I don't say "stem cell research" because some folks transmorph into Pit Bull Terriers and call me a baby killing abortionist).
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Notwithstanding what John Bolton says
international law is based on "precedents" - "stare decisis" - and Corfu Channel is the precedent in the law of international straits.

The Straits were closed before Israel's response thereto.

If were sensitive I could say that "Fear does not constitute causus belli, especially not after the fact. It is often used by warmongers, though, intent on violence" is pure racism. But I am a nice guy.

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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. No provocation? The articles indicate PLENTY of provocation.
A look at the map of Israel should reveal also, the tiny size and complete vulnerability of this nation. It is about 6 miles wide and, in total, smaller than New Jersey.

I think I included a link which shows Israel vis a vis the Arab League nations?

In that situation, it would have been INSANE to wait for an attack - especially since total annihilation has repeatedly been promised, again and again, since the 40's, and brutal attacks occurred long before then. And, don't forget, there wasn't just one army or air force involved - but several. In 1948, the day Eretz Israel declared independence, it was attacked by five armies.

In 1967, Dayan promised Jordan he would do nothing to touch them if Jordan would just hold back, since there was no quarrel between the two states. But Jordan was bound by treaty and pressure from other Arab states and had no choice but to engage. So, Jordan also attacked and this is how the West Bank came to be occupied.

In 1973, on the other hand, Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur - the highest holy day, and there were grave fears for her survival.

A great deal of blame for 6 Day War rests with the Soviets, who spread lies to Egypt about a huge Israeli army on the Syrian border. Why they did that I have no idea - except that during the Cold War, Soviet and Western interests indulged in "proxy wars" and that went on until the fall of the Soviet Union. It was horribly destructive to millions of people around the world.

BTW the Military Channel (Discovery) had a program about the 6 Day War, which you might be able to order.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. You knew the answer to your own question:
What pre-emptive war was Israel involved in? n/t

Sounds like "pre-emptive" was the right thing to do.

Say it together now: Pre-emptive war is wrong.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Nope
I asked because I wanted to know which war that poster thought was pre-emptive. Some people think all the wars of Israel are all pre-emptive.

Say it together now...waiting for 4 armies to crash your border is STUPID. Better yet...let's all say...sometimes the best defense is a good offense!
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Guess you have to pick which preemptive war to apologize for.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. No apologies
Israel did what it had to. So, is it your contention that all of the wars of Israel were pre-emptive?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. You seem to think Israel can do no wrong and has never done wrong.
Surprise us and admit that this is not the case.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Surprise!
Israel, like ANY nation has made/will continue to make a number of mistakes, some worse than others.

Now, surprise us! You seem to think that Israel is always in the wrong and never justified in her actions. Admit that is not the case.

Also, you never answered: are all of Israel's wars preemptive in your opinion?
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. I'll say it. Israel has made some dreadful mistakes. OK?
Credit where credit is due and blame where blame is due.

What bugs ME is the constant assumption that Israel is ALWAYS wrong.

That isn't true either.

Indeed, EU has just passed a resolution defining this assumption as bigotry. The following are now considered, in Europe, to be racist:

denying Jews the right to self-determination by claiming that Israel's existence is "racist";

applying a double standard; holding Israel to a yardstick not expected of any other democratic nation;

drawing comparisons between Israeli policy and those of the Nazis;

holding world Jewry collectively responsible for the actions of Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1118110994403&apage=2

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Say it together now - Closing The Straits Was a Casus Belli
under International Law---------------

1. http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/cijwww/icjwww/idecisions/isummaries/Iccsummary490409.htm
2. http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/ibbook/Bbook8-1.01.HTM
3. http://www.unescap.org/drpad/vc/document/compendium/int6.htm
4. "International Law: Cases and Materials" (American Casebook) By Richard Crawford Pugh and Louis Henkin -- about a four page discussion of "international straits", the Corfu Channel case, and closing the Straits of Tiran.
5. "International law for seagoing officers" by Burdick Brittin.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Right. That was a totally defensive war. Here is a link from
Wikipedia. We have, in part, the Soviet Union to thank for that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

snip

The few regional forces which might have prevented war quickly crumbled. In spite of the will of Jordan's Hussein, who felt that Nasser's pan-Arabism was threatening his rule, it had numerous supporters in Jordan, and May 30 saw Egypt and Jordan signing a mutual defense treaty, joining the military alliance already in place with Syria. President Nasser, who had called King Hussein an "imperialist lackey" just days earlier, declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." <1> (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/30/newsid_2493000/2493177.stm)

Several days later Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Iraqi general. Israel called upon Jordan numerous times to refrain from hostilities. Hussein, however, was caught on the horns of a galling dilemma: allow Jordan to be dragged into war and face the brunt of the Israeli response, or remain neutral and risk full-scale insurrection among his own people.

Israel's own sense of concern regarding Jordan's future role originated in Jordanian control of the West Bank. This put Arab forces just 17 kilometers from Israel's coast, a jump-off point from which a well co-ordinated tank assault could cut Israel in two within half an hour. Although the size of Jordan's army meant that Jordan was probably incapable of executing such a maneuver, the country was perceived as having a history of being used by other Arab states as staging grounds for operations against Israel; thus, attack from the West Bank was always viewed by the Israeli leadership as a threat to Israel's existence. At the same time several other Arab states not bordering Israel, including Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait and Algeria, began mobilising their armed forces.

Israel watched these developments with alarm, and tried various diplomatic routes to try settling them. The U.S. and U.K. were asked to open the Tiran straits, as they guaranteed they would in 1957. Jordan was asked by the Jewish lobby in the USA through numerous channels, weeks before the war, to refrain from entering the conflict. All Israeli requests for peace were left unanswered, creating a feeling of grave concern for the future of the country--even though Israel was more militarily powerful than all of the Arab states combined. Israelis claimed that the closing the Straits met the international criteria for an act of war. On June 3 the Johnson administration gave its acquiescence to an operation against Egypt, and plans for war were finally approved. Israel's attack against Egypt on June 5 began what would later be dubbed the Six-Day War.

snip

Here's a map of the region, as well as several articles, on this long-running conflict. The map alone should give some perspective to Israel's position in the world. It is smaller than New Jersey with a population of 6 million. There are 22 Arab states with a population of over 300 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. From your quote:
Israel's attack against Egypt on June 5 began what would later be dubbed the Six-Day War.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. How could it have been an "attack"
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 05:46 PM by Coastie for Truth
if it was in response to the Egyptian causus belli of closing the Straits of Tiran? Closing the Straits was a provocation and attack on israel under well settled doctrines of international law.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Have you ever heard of the law of the Corfu Channel???????
The closing of the Starits of Tiran immediately preceding the Six Day War was a Causus Belli and justified Israel's action---


CORFU CHANNEL CASE (MERITS)

Judgment of 9 April 1949

The Corfu Channel Case (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland-Albania) arose from incidents that occurred on October 22nd 1946, in the Corfu Strait: two British destroyers struck mines in Albanian waters and suffered damage, including serious loss of life. The United Kingdom first seized the Security Council of the United Nations which, by a Resolution of April 9th, 1947, recommended the two Governments to submit the dispute to the Court. The United Kingdom accordingly submitted an Application which, after an objection to its admissibility had been raised by Albania, was the subject of a Judgment, dated March 25th, 1948, in which the Court declared that it possessed jurisdiction. On the same day the two Parties concluded a Special Agreement asking the Court to give judgment on the following questions:

1. Is Albania responsible for the explosions, and is there a duty to pay compensation?

2. Has the United Kingdom violated international law by the acts of its Navy in Albanian waters, first on the day on which the explosions occurred and, secondly, on November 12th and 13th, 1946, when it undertook a sweep of the Strait?

In its Judgment the Court declared on the first question, by 11 votes against 5, that Albania was responsible.

In regard to the second question, it declared by 14 votes against 2 that the United Kingdom did not violate Albanian sovereignty on October 22nd; but it declared unanimously that it violated that sovereignty on November 12th/13th, and that this declaration, in itself, constituted appropriate satisfaction.

The facts are as follows. On October 22nd, 1946, two British cruisers and two destroyers, coming from the south, entered the North Corfu Strait. The channel they were following, which was in Albanian waters, was regarded as safe: it had been swept in 1944 and check-swept in 1945. One of the destroyers, the Saumarez, when off Saranda, struck a mine and was gravely damaged. The other destroyer, the Volage, was sent to her assistance and, while towing her, struck another mine and was also seriously damaged. Forty-five British officers and sailors lost their lives, and forty-two others were wounded.

An incident had already occurred in these waters on May 15th, 1946: an Albanian battery had fired in the direction of two British cruisers. The United Kingdom Government had protested, stating that innocent passage through straits is a right recognized by international law; the Albanian Government had replied that foreign warships and merchant vessels had no right to pass through Albanian territorial waters without prior authorization; and on August 2nd, 1946, the United Kingdom Government had replied that if, in the future, fire was opened on a British warship passing through the channel, the fire would be returned. Finally, on September 21st, 1946, the Admiralty in London had cabled to the British Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean to the following x effect: "Establishment of diplomatic relations with Albania is again under consideration by His Majesty's Government who wish to know whether the Albanian Government have learnt to behave themselves. Information is requested whether any ships under your command have passed through the North Corfu Strait since August and, if not, whether you intend them to do so shortly."

After the explosions on October 22nd, the United Kingdom Government sent a Note to Tirana announcing its intention to sweep the Corfu Channel shortly. The reply was that this consent would not be given unless the operation in question took place outside Albanian territorial waters and that any sweep undertaken in those waters would be a violation of Albania's sovereignty.

The sweep effected by the British Navy took place on November 12th/13th 1946, in Albanian territorial waters and within the limits of the channel previously swept. Twenty-two moored mines were cut; they were mines of the German GY type.

*

* *

The first question put by the Special Agreement is that of Albania's responsibility, under international law, for the explosions on October 22nd, 1946.

The Court finds, in the first place, that the explosions were caused by mines belonging to the minefield discovered on November 13th. It is not, indeed, contested that this minefield had been recently laid; it was in the channel, which had been previously swept and check-swept and could be regarded as safe, that the explosions had taken place. The nature of the damage shows that it was due to mines of the same type as those swept on November 13th; finally, the theory that the mines discovered on November 13th might have been laid after the explosions on October 22nd is too improbable to be accepted.

In these circumstances the question arises what is the legal basis of Albania's responsibility? The Court does not feel that it need pay serious attention to the suggestion that Albania herself laid the mines: that suggestion was only put forward pro memoria, without evidence in support, and could not be reconciled with the undisputed fact that, on the whole Albanian littoral, there are only a few launches and motor boats. But the United Kingdom also alleged the connivance of Albania: that the mine laying had been carried out by two Yugoslav warships by the request of Albania, or with her acquiescence. The Court finds that this collusion has not been proved. A charge of such exceptional gravity against a State would require a degree of certainty that has not been reached here, and the origin of the mines laid in Albanian territorial waters remains a matter for conjecture.

The United Kingdom also argued that, whoever might be the authors of the mine laying, it could not have been effected without Albania's knowledge. True, the mere fact that mines were laid in Albanian waters neither involves prima facie responsibility nor does it shift the burden of proof. On the other hand, the exclusive control exercised by a State within its frontiers may make it impossible to furnish direct proof of facts which would involve its responsibility in case of a violation of international law. The State which is the victim must, in that ease, be allowed a more liberal recourse to inferences of fact and circumstantial evidence; such indirect evidence must be regarded as of especial weight when based on a series of facts, linked together and leading logically to a single conclusion.

In the present case two series of facts, which corroborate one another, have to be considered.

The first relates to the Albanian Government's attitude before and after the catastrophe. The laying of the mines took place in a period in which it had shown its intention to keep a jealous watch on its territorial waters and in which it was requiring prior authorization before they were entered, this vigilance sometimes going so far as to involve the use of force: all of which render the assertion of ignorance a priori improbable. Moreover, when the Albanian Government had become fully aware of the existence of a minefield, it protested strongly against the activity of the British Fleet, but not against the laying of the mines, though this act, if effected without her consent, would have been a very serious violation of her sovereignty; she did not notify shipping of the existence of the minefield, as would be required by international law; and she did not undertake any of the measures of judicial investigation which would seem to be incumbent on her in such a case. Such an attitude could only be explained if the Albanian Government, while knowing of the mine laying, desired the circumstances in which it was effected to remain secret.

The second series of facts relates to the possibility of observing the mine laying from the Albanian coast. Geographically, the channel is easily watched: it is dominated by heights offering excellent observation points, and it runs close to the coast (the nearest mine was 500 m. from the shore). The methodical and well-thought-out laying of the mines compelled the minelayers to remain from two to two-and-a-half hours in the waters between Cape Kiephali and the St. George's Monastery. In regard to that point, the naval experts appointed by the Court reported, after enquiry and investigation on the spot, that they considered it to be indisputable that, if a normal look-out was kept at Cape Kiephali, Denta Point, and St. George's Monastery, and if the lookouts were equipped with binoculars, under normal weather conditions for this area, the mine-laying operations must have been noticed by these coastguards. The existence of a look-out post at Denta Point was not established; but the Court, basing itself on the declarations of the Albanian Government that lock-out posts were stationed at other points, refers to the following conclusions in the experts' report: that in the case of mine laying 1) from the North towards the South, the minelayers would have been seen from Cape Kiephali; if from South towards the North, they would have been seen from Cape Kiephali and St. George's Monastery.

From all the facts and observations mentioned above, the Court draws the conclusion that the laying of the minefield could not have been accomplished without the knowledge of Albania. As regards the obligations resulting for her from this knowledge, they are not disputed. It was her duty to notify shipping and especially to warn the ships proceeding through the Strait on October 22nd of the danger to which they were exposed. In fact, nothing was attempted by Albania to prevent the disaster, and these grave omissions involve her international responsibility.

The Special Agreement asks the Court to say whether, on this ground, there is "any duty" for Albania "to pay compensation" to the United Kingdom. This text gave rise to certain doubts: could the Court not only decide on the principle of compensation but also assess the amount? The Court answered in the affirmative and, by a special Order, it has fixed dine-limits to enable the Parties to submit their views to it on this subject.

*

* *

The Court then goes on to the second question in the Special Agreement: Did the United Kingdom violate Albanian sovereignty on October 22nd, 1946, or on November 12th/13th, 1946?

The Albanian claim to make the passage of ships conditional on a prior authorization conflicts with the generally admitted principle that States, in time of peace, have a right to send their warships through straits used for international navigation between two parts of the high seas, provided that the passage is innocent. The Corfu Strait belongs geographically to this category, even though it is only of secondary importance (in the sense that it is not a necessary route between two parts of the high seas) and irrespective of the volume of traffic passing through it. A fact of particular importance is that it constitutes a frontier between Albania and Greece, and that a part of the strait is wholly within the territorial waters of those States. It is a fact that the two States did not maintain normal relations, Greece having made territorial claims precisely with regard to a part of the coast bordering the strait. However, the Court is of opinion that Albania would have been justified in view of these exceptional circumstances, in issuing regulations in respect of the passage, but not in prohibiting such passage or in subjecting it to the requirement of special authorization.

Albania has denied that the passage on October 22 was innocent. She alleges that it was a political mission and that the methods employed - the number of ships, their formation, armament, manoeuvres, etc. - showed an intention to intimidate. The Court examined the different Albanian contentions so far as they appeared relevant. Its conclusion is that the passage was innocent both in its principle, since it was designed to affirm a right which had been unjustly denied, and in its methods of execution, which were not unreasonable in view of the firing from the Albanian battery on May 15th.

As regards the operation on November 12th/13th, it was executed contrary to the clearly expressed wish of the Albanian Government; it did not have the consent of the international mine clearance organizations; it could not be justified as the exercise of the right of innocent passage. The United Kingdom has stated that its object was to secure the mines as quickly as possible for fear lest they should be taken away by the authors of the mine laying or by the Albanian authorities: this was presented either as a new and special application of the theory of intervention, by means of which the intervening State was acting to facilitate the task of the international tribunal, or as a method of self-protection or self-help. The Court cannot accept these lines of defence. It can only regard the alleged right of intervention as the manifestation of a policy of force which cannot find a place in international law. As regards the notion of self-help, the Court is also unable to accept it: between independent States the respect for territorial sovereignty is an essential foundation for international relations. Certainly, the Court recognises the Albanian Government's complete failure to carry out its duties after the explosions and the dilatory nature of its diplomatic Notes as extenuating circumstances for the action of the United Kingdom. But, to ensure respect for international law, of which it is the organ, the Court must declare that the action of the British Navy constituted a violation of Albanian sovereignty. This declaration is in accordance with the request made by Albania through her counsel and is in itself appropriate satisfaction.

*

* *

To the Judgment of the Court there are attached one declaration and the dissenting opinions of fudges Alvarez, Winiarski, Zoricic, Badawi Pasha, Krylov and Azevedo, and also that of Dr. Ecer, Judge ad hoc.

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/cijwww/icjwww/idecisions/isummaries/Iccsummary490409.htm



and



Corfu Channel
(United Kingdom v. Albania)

This dispute gave rise to three Judgments by the Court. It arose out of the explosions of mines by which some British warships suffered damage while passing through the Corfu Channel in 1946, in a part of the Albanian waters which had been previously swept. The ships were severely damaged and members of the crew were killed. The United Kingdom seised the Court of the dispute by an Application filed on 22 May 1947 and accused Albania of having laid or allowed a third State to lay the mines after mine-clearing operations had been carried out by the Allied naval authorities. The case had previously been brought before the United Nations and, in consequence of a recommendation by the Security Council, had been referred to the Court. In a first Judgment (25 March 1948), the Court dealt with the question of its jurisdiction and the admissibility of the Application, which Albania had raised. The Court found, inter alia, that a communication dated 2 July 1947, addressed to it by the Government of Albania, constituted a voluntary acceptance of its jurisdiction. It called to mind on that occasion that the consent of the parties to the exercise of its jurisdiction was not subject to any particular conditions of form and stated that, at that juncture, it could not hold to be irregular a proceeding not precluded by any provision in those texts. A second Judgment (9 April 1949) related to the merits of the dispute. The Court found that Albania was responsible under international law for the explosions that had taken place in Albanian waters and for the damage and loss of life which had ensued. It did not accept the view that Albania had itself laid the mines or the purported connivance of Albania with a mine-laying operation carried out by the Yugoslav Navy at the request of Albania. On the other hand, it held that the mines could not have been laid without the knowledge of the Albanian Government. On that occasion, it indicated in particular that the exclusive control exercised by a State within its frontiers might make it impossible to furnish direct proof of facts incurring its international responsibility. The State which is the victim must, in that case, be allowed a more liberal recourse to inferences of fact and circumstantial evidence; such indirect evidence must be regarded as of especial weight when based on a series of facts, linked together and leading logically to a single conclusion. Albania, for its part, had submitted a counter-claim against the United Kingdom. It accused the latter of having violated Albanian sovereignty by sending warships into Albanian territorial waters and of carrying out minesweeping operations in Albanian waters after the explosions. The Court did not accept the first of these complaints but found that the United Kingdom had exercised the right of innocent passage through international straits. On the other hand, it found that the minesweeping had violated Albanian sovereignty, because it had been carried out against the will of the Albanian Government. In particular, it did not accept the notion of "self-help" asserted by the United Kingdom to justify its intervention. In a third Judgment (15 December 1949), the Court assessed the amount of reparation owed to the United Kingdom and ordered Albania to pay £844,000 (see Italy v. France, United Kingdom and United States).

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/ibbook/Bbook8-1.01.HTM

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Further on the Law of the Corfu Channel
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 04:37 PM by Coastie for Truth


COMPENDIUM OF SUMMARIES OF JUDICIAL DECISIONS IN ENVIRONMENT RELATED CASES INTERNATIONAL
International - Maritime Traffic, Minefields, Sovereignty

THE CORFU CHANNEL CASE (MERITS)

INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE, I.C.J. REPORTS 1949, p. 4 PER CURIAM
Introduction

In May 1946 British warships passed through the Corfu Channel, in Albanian territorial waters, and were fired upon by Albanian coastal batteries. In October 1946, when two British warships passed through the Corfu Channel the ships struck mines and were damaged. In November 1946 the British Royal Navy swept for mines in the Corfu Channel in Albanian waters without Albanian consent.
Legislative Framework

Geneva Convention on the Territorial Sea. 1958. Art. 14. 516 U.N.T.S. 205.
Held

Albania is responsible for the October 1946 explosion in Albanian waters, and for the damage and loss of human life that resulted. A decision regarding the amount of compensation is reserved for further consideration. International decisions recognise circumstantial evidence, and such evidence in this case indicates that the laying of the minefield which caused the explosions in October 1946 could not have been accomplished without the knowledge of the Albanian government. Albania had the responsibility to warn British warships of the danger the minefields exposed them to. This responsibility flowed from well-recognized principles of humanity which are even more exacting in time of peace than in war, from the principle of freedom of maritime communication, and from the obligation of all states not to knowingly allow their territory to be used contrary to the rights of other states.

The United Kingdom did not violate the sovereignty of Albania when it passed through Albanian waters in October 1946. In times of peace, states have the right to send their warships through straits used for international navigation between two parts of the high seas without the previous authorization of a coastal state, provided the passage is innocent.

However, when the Royal Navy swept for mines in November 1946, it violated the sovereignty of Albania. This operation did not have the consent of international mine clearance organisations, could not be justified as the exercise of a right of innocent passage, and international law does not allow a state to assemble a large number of warships in the territorial waters of another state and to carry out mine-sweeping in those waters. The United Kingdom's arguments regarding intervention and self-protection are not persuasive.
Cases Cited

U.S., ex rel. Amabile v. Italian Republic (1952) 14 R.I.A.A. 115
Corfu Channel (Assessment of Compensation) I.C.J. Rep. 1 949, p.224

http://www.unescap.org/drpad/vc/document/compendium/int6.htm


If you're going to opine on International Law and Causi Belli -- at least do the research.
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Johnywolf Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Ok
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 02:02 PM by Johnywolf
Are you an English teacher? seemed to address everyline. Now if Arabs could only live peacefully, Israel would not have attacked them. I know people, who live in Israel and according to them Arabs in Israel have the same rights Jews or Christians have.
If you think Hamas are freedom fighters, then you must think that 9/11 hijackers were freedom fighters. Russians did retaliate after Hitler invaded it, as a result many Germans got killed. I am sure you do not speak for most democrats out there.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ksilvas Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Disagreement = Deceit
Why is it that because we have an
obvious difference of opinion, that I
must be a "White power" nazi party member.
Maybe this, "either your with us or against us mentality",
is the primary problem you have in having an
objective opinion on the problems of the Middle East.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. The hijackers were Saudi. The book, Craig Unger's work
"House of Bush, House of Saud," which was featured in "Fahrenheit 9/11", details the attack but more disturbingly, events immediately following the attack in which many members of the Saud family and/or administration, as well as Bin Ladin family members, were allowed to flee the US even though all OTHER flights were grounded.

And, it tells the history of GHW Bush, the Reagan and Bush administrations and their sorry history of misdeeds in the Middle East. That includes arming both sides of the Iran/Iraq war as well as turning the mujeheddin in Afghanistan into a well-armed global terror network.

THAT is an objective and fair piece of work.

As for your question, "who benefits?" NOBODY BENEFITED. It was terrible and stupid act which has resulted in dreadful warfare and many innocent dead people.

I suppose, if ANYBODY benefited, it would be people like Haliburton, who got contracts to rebuild Iraq long before it was even attacked. It would be the arms suppliers, the petrochemical industry, and tangentially, the people of Turkmenistan, Pakistan and India - through whose territory a big pipeline is being built. Iran is also involved. This wasn't possible with Taliban in Afghanistan.

And, with the price of oil soaring past $55.00/barrel, do the math.

Ever hear of the Seven Sisters?
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. So nu? What was that stuff that fell all over Turkey?
Maybe it was space debris? It could happen.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. How about dropped from an Israeli plane at very high altitude?....
...That could happen, too.

Or how about dropped from a US plane at high altitude?

You have to keep in mind who gains from stories like this.
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arthur_d Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. what
"You have to keep in mind who gains from stories like this."

what a disgusting comment.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You have to understand after the US public has been lied to
We trust NO ONE .... its the first thing in Maslowes list

TRUST!!!

this administration doesn't have any!!!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. And your response was utterly devoid of critical thought.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Or...
How about they (the Syrians) actually DID do the test and are lying and to point back a finger at Israel allows them to get away with their test AND blame the Israelis...two birds, one scud!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Right. Based on all the lies we've been told by the NeoCon Junta....
...on every subject and at every level, you STILL persist in wanting to believe them?

Interesting...but very sad.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. So the AP is now part of the NeoCon Junta?
If the Syrians did not test the missiles, then why did they apologize to the Turkish ambassador for the debris that fell in Turkey?

And, from this one post, you believe I "persist in wanting to believe them ?" Sometimes, the truth does come out in the press, even if it does prove a country you disbelieve is correct.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. "Neocon Junta"?
It blows me away that the Ba'ath dictatorship of Syria, repressive, fascist, and completely undemocratic, is whom y'all would prefer to believe.

Amazing.

Please, do some reading. At least, look up the history of the Ba'ath party. This applies to Syria as well as Iraq.

If one really gives a damn about ANYBODY in the Middle East - Kurd, Arab, Assyrian, Armenian, Turk, Copt, Maronite, Jew, animist or Ba'hai - one should do some reading about the history of Ba'ath dictatorships in Syria and Iraq.

And while one is at it - perhaps a bit of reading about the jihadists - as if the daily bombings of innocent people weren't a bit of a clue as to their philosophy and respect for life and democratic principles.

Today, Hamas blew up an Israeli greenhouse with a rocket. The death toll, so far, is 2 Palestinian dead, 1 Chinese dead, and many Palestinian wounded. They were working there, making their daily bread, while tending to their plants.

Sick.
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TexMexTex Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. wow!
:tinfoilhat:
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Pryderi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Mossad "fixed the intelligence".
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. Surprise, surprise!
Edited on Mon Jun-06-05 01:13 AM by Behind the Aegis
It's those pesky Israelis spreading lies again! :sarcasm:

If they didn't shoot those missiles, then why did the Syrian ambassador comment to the Turkish ambassador "... Osman Faruk Logoglu, told the Times there were no casualties in the incident on May 27. The Syrian ambassador was asked to explain and "said that during a military exercise, there was a technical mishap," the Times quoted Logoglu as saying, "and that the Syrian government was sorry about this."" So who is really lying here? Israel? Turkey? Syria? My money is on the last one.

on edit: style error
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. Nah. Why would you think such a think? EVERYBODY KNOWS
you can't trust Turks and Israelis.

Ambassadors, newspapers, magazines, wire services - nah. Totally untrustworthy.

Do you feel sick too?

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arthur_d Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
11. am yisroel chai
listen to recording of event in nyc
click on link on this page:

http://arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=83114

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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. WHAT does this have to do with Syrian missiles? The
nation of Israel and the Jewish people, given our history of expulsion, loss of homes and diaspora, is traumatized right now.

So people are talking about it and comforting each other.

Is that ok?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Oh, please. Go peddle your propaganda somewhere else.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Holy shit. A modicum of compassion for your fellow human
beings is all I'm asking here.

If that's propoganda we are in deep trouble.

And I, personally, deeply resent the implication that truth-telling about a complex and troubling situation, involving REAL HUMAN BEINGS, can be thus construed.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Cry me a river. One man's "truth-telling" is another man's fiction....
...I'd advise you to read some of my other 10,000-11,000 posts on DU to find out what I really care about.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I don't need to. The above post tells me plenty. It tells me
that compassion is selective, only to be applied to those whom one considers worthy or politically correct.

And that's WRONG.

I don't need fancy lessons in semantics to tell me that. And no OTHER liberal or progressive should either. Some truths are self-evident and UNIVERSAL.

A person who is a Christian would understand that. So would a person who can read the Declaration of Independence.

Compassion and respect for one's fellow man REGARDLESS of race, creed, religion or political affiliation is a bedrock principle.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. CB.....I think MLD has been embarrassed enough.
Edited on Tue Jun-07-05 04:51 PM by drdon326
give him a break.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. heres another link sorry for the big oops on the link
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
65. Locking
No news link in original post.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
66. Locking
No news link posted in original post.
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