Rangel: Bush Iraq 'Fraud' as Bad as Holocaust

[bemildred]

This should cause a lot of heads to explode.

Top House Democrat Charles Rangel complained on Monday that the Bush administration's decision to concoct a "fraudulent" war in Iraq was as bad as "the Holocaust."

"It's the biggest fraud ever committed on the people of this country," Rangel told WWRL Radio's Steve Malzberg and Karen Hunter. "This is just as bad as six million Jews being killed. The whole world knew it and they were quiet about it, because it wasn't their ox that was being gored."

---

The Harlem Democrat charged that top Bush officials "made up mind to go into Iraq long before 9/11. And every one of the players who made this decision - they were part of this plan to do it - from Rumsfeld, to Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bolton - every one of them - Perle - plan to put our kids in harm's way long before 9/11."

---

"I am saying that people's silence when they know terrible things are happening is the same thing as the Holocaust, where everyone would have me believe that no one knew those Jews were killed over there."

News Max

[NAO]

1. I thought Abortion-on-demand was the "Holocaust of Our Time"

per the Radical Clerics of the Rabid Religious Reich.

[Fluffdaddy]

2. Lot of heads will explode.............Oh yea

[kenny blankenship]

3. Well Charlie I am afraid you're going to have be Ward-Churchilled

for that remark, valid though it is; and to make it worse prominent Democrats will surely join in your crucifixion to prove their bona fides as American Fascists.

[TankLV]

97. As well as some alleged DU'rs.

[Barrett808]

112. I guess somebody will have to invoke Godwin's law n/t

[lateo]

128. ding ding ding

We have a winner.

[Voltaire99]

141. Yes, he has taken the names of Bush and the Holocaust in vain.

How dare Charlie? Remarks like his take all the fun out of slaughtering foreigners for "democracy."

I see Gorgeous George's visit to America was not wasted on at least one sitting Democrat.

[keithjx]

4. Sounds like someone's been reading PNAC.... n/t

[tridim]

5. Strong words

I like it. They must be stopped, and it's going to take comparisons like that to do it.

[spooked911]

6. I think hyperbole like this is the only way to break through the media

strangle-hold on the Bushist-conservative point of view.

[Orsino]

19. Hyperbole likes this...

...just gives the MSM an easy way to DA it.

Six million is a much bigger number than a hundred thousand, so the Rs will only snicker at what is otherwise an apt comparison.

[KoKo]

85. Good for Rangel. He's taking the heat off Dean. If we can just get more

of our Dems expressing "outrage" maybe we can teach the Repugs what the meaning of the word "hypocracy" is. They have been lacking in understanding of it. :eyes:

Wringing our hands and complaining about Coulter and others hasn't done us any good. Let them all have at it. Might separate the spineless from the spined.

[geckosfeet]

91. The bigger point is, complicit silence. Like the man said,,, if its not

your bull being gored and you are getting yours,, why rock the boat.

[Terran]

28. You may be right.

As inapt as Rangel's comparison is, the sheer audacity of it may get some people to sit up and take notice.

[Sequoia]

34. His comparasion isn't as bad as when PETA did it with chickens.

[Terran]

45. Yeah, I agree, basically.

Although the Buddhist in me doesn't have a hard time seeing the beef/poultry industries as mass murder. And yet I eat meat. I'm a bad person.

[deacon2]

78. Not "bad", perhaps inconsistent?

As I am. My Buddhism recoils at my current 24/7 state of rage. My long dormant Catholicism blushes at my sailor's vernacular. They both war in my soul for dominance.
Yet, I persist.

[Terran]

104. Thanks--I'll take "inconsistent"

I know what you mean about the rage. The longing to fix the material world seems so inconsistent with my limited knowledge of Buddhist teaching. But I'm not sure the Buddha ever conceived of anyone actually destroying the world on which this illusory life unfolds. (sigh)

[arwalden]

37. It Works For Ann Coulter.

[yurbud]

108. it will work if he doesn't back down, but only hyperbole by a few % pts.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Catfight]

7. Senseless killing is senseless killing, no matter how you slice and dice

it. He is correct, it is a world atrocity if Bush is convicted of such a horrible act as lying to congress, the people and the world about needing to go to war to protect America. He should be hung from the tallest building for all the world to see if this is true.

[Chicago Democrat]

26. That and the silence around the Holocaust is comparible...

That is comparible.. The Holocaust included ALL OF EUROPE and RUSSIA, so it was far bigger for that reason.

Compare Iraq to OCcupied France and the "holocaust" there YES, mucgh closer.....

[Colorado Blue]

40. Yes, I agree with this. I don't think Iraq is at all comparable

to the Holocaust per se.

However, when Rumsfeld started blathering about "Shock and Awe" it chilled my blood - it sounded like "blitzkrieg". So it was very like the invasion of Poland and just as frightening and I can't even imagine what it must have been like on the ground.

But the Holocaust was a systematic genocide that wiped out nearly 1/2 of the world's Jews, destroyed the culture of European Jewry and also cost the lives of millions of other people including gays, Gypsies and people unpopular with the Reich for whatever reason.

It was calculated, wholesale, systematic, industrialized enslavement and finally murder. At least 10 million people died.

I do think, if we're looking for a genocide to worry about, we should try to help the people of the Sudan.

THAT is much more to the point.

[coalition_unwilling]

49. As one of my friends said, Bush is to Iraq

as Hitler was to Poland.

[Colorado Blue]

84. You know what makes me shudder? Daddy Bush wants JEB

to run next.

They really are trying to establish a dynasty, keep control - it's all that oil, all the attendant industries - which are HUGE - that's who they are, it's who they represent and work for.

I don't really know if this particular fusion of political and economic power can be effectively challenged. The entire planetary economy swings around these industries. We are completely reliant upon them AND we contribute daily to their coffers. The US military is like their private security department.

[reprobate]

121. Just wait a year or two. There won't be much economic or political...

...power left to them. And they'll have a helluva time running a military machine without oil. Seems like even with all the death they've caused with their attempt to take over the persian gulf area, they have even less access to oil than they did before Mad George was installed as Emperor.

To say nothing of the fact that they have managed to make us the pariah of the world.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Jethro taking over from Mad George. I have the feeling that when this fool is thru no bush could be elected Dog Catcher.

[Colorado Blue]

135. I am PRAYING that you are correct! When I think of the

missed opportunities of the last few years, the continuing destruction - and LYING ABOUT - the environment, the troubling dissolution of the separation of church and state and the sheer agglomeration of industrial and political power and wealth this administration represents, it scares me.

PLUS they're IDIOTS.

Maybe it's just as well - we'd be in real trouble if they were smart:)

[Voltaire99]

144. Meet the new boss...

Nice post, Colorado Blue.

I don't really know if this particular fusion of political and economic power can be effectively challenged.

Probably not. Not if by challenged you mean "displaced through the ballot" or "conquered from without."

They're here to stay, probably for a quarter century or so. Jeb, Cheney, whomever; figureheads. Possibly a Democrat along the whimpering lines of Lieberman. Someone, that is, obedient enough to be allowed to front for this power.

But there's an Ozymandias quality to them that makes me hopeful. However vast their resources, those in charge are incompetents. They can run neither economies nor occupations. Their dream of empire is foundering. Their middle class is contracting. Bills larger than they can pay are coming due. They have no plan--and by God, they're sticking to it! ;-)

So even in the chaos of their making, some hope of a better society is possible. In US history, reform has tended to follow our worst hours. It's just a fucking pity we're too dumb to be proactive, preferring to believe cycles of prosperity are eternal and then sullenly turning to misery as our guide.

The US military is like their private security department.

Yep. Corporatism's fightin' lads.

[Colorado Blue]

154. I totally agree. nt

[Colorado Blue]

155. Except for one thing: Hitler didn't arm and empower the

Poles.

The history of the Reagan Administration (GHW Bush) and its involvement with Saddam Hussein makes this story even wilder.

One reason they were concerned about WMD's, especially chemical weapons, is the fact that they more or less had the receipts, so to speak.

It's the "Great Game" run completely amok and now the chaos factor has kicked in with the daily violence. I think it's heartbreaking.

[reprobate]

120. Amazing how many valid comparisons can be made between...

...Mad George and Adolph's administrations. I wonder if they will meet the same end. It's the least Mad George could do for the world.

[Colorado Blue]

153. Let's just hope we survive until the end of this term and can

have a REAL election with REAL ballots.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

131. And "Bunker Busters"....as if obliterating people and structures

that were hunkered down below the surface was " a good thing. Not to mention the effect on the surrounding acreage...several square miles worth.

We are party to a level of destruction, when it comes to Iraq, that many of us haven't even begun to understand. MKJ

[Colorado Blue]

150. I agree and I think it sucks. Along those lines, a study of

the Soviet war in Afghanistan, which I understand we helped instigate, is warranted.

It was GRUESOME, really terrible. Also, Iran/Iraq and Gulf War I - unbelievable, really.

[DLnyc]

146. Yes, but the holocaust started small. The real problem is that

no one objected at the beginning. Once Fascism gets its momemtum going it's TOO FUCKING LATE to object. We are in the early stages here, only about 200 young Iraqi boys raped, only about 1000 innocent taxi drivers and such imprisoned without charges or access to legal redress tortured and/or murdered. Is it okay, then, to sit and say nothing? After all, this is not as bad (yet) as 6 million Jews killed, so why not sit around and wait and see what happens? But you see, my friend, once they crush the media, once they obliterate the controls and limits of law and of human decency, then, as I mentioned above, it's TOO FUCKING LATE to do anything!

[Colorado Blue]

152. No disagreement there. That's why lots of us are bitching

and would like to see A Certain Administration arrested.

[Frederik]

179. But it didn't start in 2003

or with the Bush admin. This current war is merely the latest chapter, before it there was Gulf war one which killed approximately 200,000 and 12 years of murderous embargo that killed about a million. You could even add the Iraq-Iran war, as both sides were supplied with weapons from the West, thus prolonging the war. Iraq in the 70s was a rich, secular, well-educated, peaceful society where women were more emancipated than anywhere else in the Middle East. Look at it today.

[goclark]

122. Speak Rangel!

The rethugs will want to twist your words but I understand exactly what you are saying. Everyone stood by and let BUSH and Blair kill innocent people and send our children to die in a war that did not have to be.

It will take STRONG statements to get attention!

I loved it when Rosie O'Donnell stood up to Sean H. yesterday. She let it all hang out," Bush should be tried at the Hague!" Millions of people heard her say that on The VIEW yesterday.

They need to know that we will no longer tip toe around the truth.

[Dickie Flatt]

8. QUICK somebody call the ADL!!!!

*drudge siren*

[HockeyMom]

9. Conspiracy is a Felony,

a High Crime and Misdemeanor, and Impeachable offense. Exactly, why Nixon resigned.

[TheFarseer]

10. You, of course, know this isn't going to play well

In terms of fraud, yeah these are probably about equal. In terms of pure evil, I have a hard time saying these two are on the same plane. The deliberate and horrific extermination of 6 million Jews in an attempt to wipe out their entire race and a war launched for admittedly extremely dubious reasons, I'm sorry, are a bit different.

editted for poor grammar

[0rganism]

12. Rangel has to know it too, I wonder why he went there?

Is it just for the sake of media coverage?

Is it a trap for republican pundits to rush in and say, "bush's fraudulent war isn't anywhere near as bad as the holoca... oops..."?

Is it stupidity? Is it miscalculation?

Maybe it's mad genius. :shrug: Rangel doesn't seem to have any hangups about making controversial assertions.

[MisterP]

25. It's Newsmax...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

67. what MisterP said...

"I'll take 'Corrupt Corporate Media Whores' for $1000, Alex."

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Brilliant strategy (with echoes of LBJ)

LBJ was infamous (in I think one of the Caro volumes of biography) for saying of an opponent, "Let him deny he was a pig-fucker."

Let BushCo deny that Iraq is the equivalent of the Holocaust.

[TankLV]

98. YES! That is the whole point!

And we then we can also discuss how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.

Quibbling with semantics, but the bigger picture remains.

[Marnieworld]

21. How many Iraqis have to die then for this to be similiar enough?

Should he wait until it's a million? 2 million? So the senseless slaughter of 100,000 isn't a big deal? He was making the comparison to standing by silently to genocide. The sooner we confront it the better. Go Charlie go!

[Behind the Aegis]

73. That was not what Rengle was commenting on.

He wasn't even commenting on the deaths, he was commenting on the silence surrounding both events. Had he stated that more plainly, people would have understood better.

[goclark]

129. The rethugs would not understand it any better

Whatever Democrats say, the rethug MSM a;;pws the rethugs to be on prime time telling us to shut up and we do.

Well we should know by now that bullying back is the only recourse for the rethugs!

Speak Rangel! Speak!

[Occulus]

48. *snort*

Yeah, okay. :eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

75. you think they are one and the same? n/t

[Occulus]

176. I'm thinking intent.

The intent is the same, no matter the victim. It will change, over time, from Jew to liberal to homosexual to whomever. The intent, however, remains intact: demonize the 'other', kill it off if necessary.

In that sense, it's deja vu all over again.

[sattahipdeep]

69. Biological weapon

Iraq, and Afghanistan are completely uninhabitable.

Depleted uranium is a very, very, very effective biological
weapon. This is the primary purpose for using it. Marion Falk
(a retired chemical physicist who built nuclear bombs for more
than 20 years at Lawrence Livermore lab), who is the
Manhattan Project scientist I work with, taught me pretty
much everything about radiation and particles and DU. He
said the purpose of weapons used by the military is not only
to injure and kill the enemy soldiers, but the purpose is to kill,
maim, and disease the civilian population because it reduces
the productivity of a country and pretty soon a lot of their
resources are going to be used for taking care of sick people.
They will have fewer and fewer healthy workers.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6232

[Colorado Blue]

100. I have news for you. With the pollution we have, and the

global warming, and the environmental laws that Bush Administration is trashing, and the oceans that are dying, the rainforests that are burning, WE are going to have less and less productive workers.

[yurbud]

110. If Bush thought he could get away with killing ALL Iraqis and keep oil

do you think he wouldn't do it?

The only thing constraining this crowd is an estimation of how outraged the world has to be before they will act against us.

Other countries haven't acted against us because of our overwhelming military force, but if we were a middle weight power, we would already be occuppied and de-bushified, and the world would be grateful to whoever did it.

[otohara]

11. Charlie Get Ready For Barrage of Democrats Criticizing You

as a loon who doesn't speak for democrats.

[geckosfeet]

92. Like he has not dealt with that before.

[ananda]

13. Nooo...

Sheesh. Much of the world was VERY vocal and demonstrative about their opposition to this war... even many people in the USA.

And it's not like the Holocaust, though it's bad enough in it's own way.

Sue

[Frederik]

180. But he's right about the silence in the US media

Iraq almost doesn't exist to them anymore, exept as an "emerging democracy" with some start-up problems.

[Zorra]

14. Bu*h and the PNAC must get their own "Nuremberg" trials. These

nutcases are fascist war criminals just like Hitler and the monsters that plotted, worked, and murdered for him..

The PNAC fascist war criminals are, IMO, the best argument for the death penalty.

But it would be better if they all got sentenced to life in a maximum security prison without possibility of parole or pardon.

These violence obsessed psychopathic lunatics are an extreme danger to society and the planet itself.

They must be locked up forever or they will continue to kill prolifically, without restraint or remorse.

[lonestarnot]

16. ABSODAMNLUTELY!

[slor]

15. I don't know folks...

this one might not draw the ire of the Jewish community, because he says something that many politicians prefer to ignore. Many countries knew of the Holocaust, and did not make an issue about it. Hell, if I had been a General back then, I would have blasted it out everyday to my troops, let them know what they were up against, inspire the drive to fight. That imho, offers a layer of defense, as he is not relating it directly to the genocide, but to the passive complicity of the genocide, by remaining silent.

[bobbieinok]

182. one of the things that really upsets me about the world's complicity in

the Holocaust is that the railroads to Auschwitz were not bombed although many Jewish organizations asked that they be,some may have even asked that the camps themselves be bombed

allied military said many camps were too far from England to make the trip....but then factories in the vicinity were bombed

there's a very good PBS 90 minute documentary called 'America and the Holocaust: Denial and Indifference' ...... I think it was part of the series The American Experience..... it was broadcast ca 5 years ago

when I showed it to my college classes, the students were stunned to realize how much anti Jewish prejudice and discrimination was commonplace in the pre WWII US....they'd never heard that many want ads said only Christians wanted or that resorts, housing areas, hospitals, etc, did not accept Jews (hospitals didn't accept Jewish doctors)

[0007]

17. Charlie baby isn't meek and also doesn't believe ignorance

is bliss as a poster here stated, that this statement of fraud will bring down the Dem's. Such nonsense.

Go Charlie go......let it all hang out. junior has gotta go down and not on cheney.

[demgrrrll]

18. Has anyone read the poor man blog today. He delivers a smack down

for the ages along these lines.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Absurd!!!

The conclusion that the world sat (sits) by and did (does) nothing, is an apt one. It is not the same as the Holocaust. It is why the Holocaust was allowed to happen. A more proper response would have been; "Top House Democrat Charles Rangel complained on Monday that the Bush administration's decision to concoct a "fraudulent" war in Iraq was as bad as the silence from the world surrounding "the Holocaust." "I am saying that people's silence when they know terrible things are happening is the same thing as the silence surrounding the Holocaust, where everyone would have me believe that no one knew those Jews were killed over there."

It was a stupid remark on his part and not very accurate. The Holocaust, where 13 million people, almost half Jews, were massacred, is NOT the same as being led into an illegal and unjust war.

[Chicago Democrat]

24. Not absurd.... could have been said better....

A better comparison is the invasion of Poland.
The invasion of France
The invasion of Yugoslavia
The invasion of etc... etc...

All of these are HIGHLY Comparable to the invasion of Iraq.


After invasions came unpopular occupations and camps and "insurgencies" to which were followed by atrocities.... JUST LIKE IRAQ.


I appreciate your sensitivity to the Holocaust. People use it too flippantly, Allow me to apologise for Charlie, he was obvious speaking emotionally, not like an historian. STILL WE MUST NOT UNDERSTATE THE GRAVITY OF THESE CRIMES.


MEGA LOVE AND RESPECT TO YOU dear fellow liberal thinking person.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Could have been said better

The list you gave would have been acceptable and accurate. However, I still contend it is absurd to compare the illegal Iraqi invasion to the Holocaust. And, G-d forbid that something like that EVER happens again!

I also agree we must not understate the gravity of the crimes committed by our government. But, invoking the Holocaust will create all kinds of side issues, which always get more play; thus, the actual kernel of truth gets lost in the fray.

Thanks for providing a list of accurate comparisons! :)

[Carni]

39. It almost did happen again in the Balkans

And the Repukes were the first ones to bitch when Clinton did FINALLY send troops in...how many years did Milosevic run around unchecked while the world sat on it's hands.

I think Rangle could have worded his statement better but I get his drift.

[Colorado Blue]

42. I think Clinton wanted to help in Rwanda but I've read that

he didn't think the Republican Congress would go along. I think they were still upset about the mess in Somalia?

In any case that upsets me to this day and I'll repeat: WHAT ABOUT DARFUR?

And we should have helped out in the Balkans LONG before we did. I blame the Europeans for that. This was a serious, horrible, destructive shooting war right on their doorstep - IN Europe.

Surely, something could have been done to limit the killing? NATO?

[Carni]

44. That's probably the case

For eight years the reich wingers screamed and moaned about not being the world police and now look at them...

I have decided that they can't justify the use of the US military unless it's in the spirit of making a huge mess, lining their pockets and ruining lives!

[Colorado Blue]

72. Right. It has to be profitable. Gag. Although - war always

IS - to somebody.

[rinsd]

54. Congress was still a Democratic majority in 1994.....

...when the genocide happened.

Clinton felt that was his greatest mistkae. Somalia had some to do with it as did the RW hammering of the "draft dodging"(their turn of phrase) CIC sending troops out.

[Colorado Blue]

70. Sorry! I remembered wrong. It seems like the Republicans

have been in power FOREVER. Their values sure have.

I think we really began going south when Reagan was annointed King of the Republicans, ie Front Man Extraordinaire, although Vietnam was probably The Beginning Of The Great Slide To The Bottom.

My father-in-law fought in WWII - for the other side. So, his POV is often bracing (and often funny). He says,

"Hah. Der Great American Empire, she lasted less than 25 years!"

He says, when Kennedy was shot the "military-industrial complex", that Eisenhower warned of, took over completely (Vietnam). War is just big business. Johnson didn't see it, in any case couldn't stop it.

I think he might really have believed in Stopping Communism.

The FIRST Bush was REALLY bad news, IMHO. EVERYBODY should read, "House of Bush, House of Saud." Whoa.

[Carni]

86. I think we had bush the first for twelve years to be quite frank

I think Reagan was just the supposedly *likeable* figurehead...but I think sleazebag the first was really calling the shots.

This vile family has been screwing this country for a LONG time.

There's another book by Kevin Phillips (I think that is the authors name) and I think it's even more frightening than House of Bush House of Saud is IMO unfortunately it's a very dry read!

[Colorado Blue]

99. Yes, I agree with you, Reagan was just the pretty face. I'll

try to slog through the book you mention. It's important to know this stuff even if it's hard to read:)

Thanks!

Also - don't forget GHW Bush was CIA before he was VP.

AAAACCCKKKKKKKKKKK.

[Geo55]

136. He was a mediocre movie actor ,

But he sure got his "Oscar" in public service to the elite class.

[Colorado Blue]

138. LOL! That was my thought exactly. nt

[reprobate]

123. Of course the repugs were first to bitch. Remember that it was the Bush

family in the form of Prescott, Mad George's grandfather who helped finance hitler's third reich, and had his bank taken by the government for tradng with the enemy.

There is nothing unusual about a bush doing things against the best interest of the United States. It's in their blood.

[TankLV]

101. They are not NAZI's! Stop saying that!

There, I said it for you.

We could spend all day discussing how NOT like (the holocost) (the Nazis) bushco and the repukes are. But that misses the whole point.

It's the countless thousands of SIMILARITIES to these things that is the WHOLE point.

Evil is still evil.

What some would argue, is tha appropriate DEGREE to which things are similar.

THE FACT THAT SO MANY COMPARISONS CAN BE MADE AT ALL IS THE SCARY PART!

It IS like the Holocost. They ARE like the Nazi's. We are just discussing the DEGREE to which the comparisons are valid. And the are DEFINITELY valid.

As to the degree. Give them time, and the degree will be surpassed. That is the whole point in calling them out on it NOW - so it doesn't have to GET THAT BAD!

[Behind the Aegis]

102. I think you have missed the point.

The fraud of this war and the Holocaust are NOT comparable! The SILENCE surrounding both ARE comparable. He just made a bad comparison, nothing more.

On edit: There is no need to say anything for me. I am quite capable of making my own statements. Thank you though.

[TankLV]

158. No - I'm not "missing" anything. I am pretty clear on what I said.

And I stand behind every word.

And what I said is closer to the truth than you and other apologists for bushco care to admit.

But of course, go on attacking fellow dems, instead of the Nazi wannabe's currently known as the repuke party - it's much more productive, right?!

[Behind the Aegis]

160. Very telling

So, I disagree with the manner in which the comparison is delivered, I am now a Shrub apologist? I never attacked him, I said his statement was not accurate. I didn't call for his head. There was only one attack on a fellow Dem and I'll let you figure out who is the culprit.

[TankLV]

165. Yes - very telling indeed!

Nice try!

Read #139 below - he can comprehend.

Just a suggestion.

[Behind the Aegis]

166. I comprehend as well.

We see what we see, and sometimes it is true, and others times, we are fooled. And, sometimes, when we don't like what we see in ourselves, we project it onto others.

There are many other fine posts to read as well.

[TankLV]

169. Obviously, you don't. It is a waste of time to argue with you.

I am done with you.

[Behind the Aegis]

171. Too subtle

I guess I was too subtle for you. Not surprising. As, I said before, very telling.

[halobeam]

139. I share your point, Rangels point,

if they aren't stopped now, by our calling it what it is/what they are, it will become a living HELL. I don't care what anyone wants to compare a living hell to. Hell is hell, and I REALLY don't want to go there, let alone have my kids there.

Our reps are there to be a voice for the people. Seems from this thread and many other people out there, for that matter are being represented by Rangel.

Yeah Rangel, oh and thanks for being for the people.

[yodermon]

38. Will he issue a correction?

Hmmm.. am I noticing a trend? Are the more vocal Dems (I'm thinking of the recent Dean dustup) doing this on purpose? I.e.: make an "outrageous" statement, grab headlines, then restate it in more tempered tones in the next news cycle as a "clarification". But, not before the meme dribbles out into the media.

Personally, I think that if the public starts thinking "Iraq War" and "holocaust" in the same thought.., this is not a bad thing.

(e.g. "republicans don't have to work a day in their life!".... "the leadership, i mean. sorry.")

we'll see

[Viva_La_Revolution]

74. Iraq = Vietnam

Most people 'get' this right away.

[candy331]

58. Allways a better way to say something when someone else speaks

out now let the ones who can say it better speak up. Is that silence I hear? thought so.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. not sure what you are saying, but...

since the statement just came out, we shall see if others speak out. There have been a few on the left who have indeed spoken out about the silence surrounding the illegal invasion of Iraq.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. Yup. I agree with your assessment. nt

[K-W]

126. You seem to be missing the point of the comparison.

One of the reasons the Holocaust was as bad as it was is that the world ignored it for a while. His point is that people ignoring US agression are like people who ignored the mass killings in Germany while only tens and then hundreds of thousands of people had died.

He would have been better off going with German agression than the Holoaust, but it was neither stupid nor inaccurate. He is commenting on those people who witness a crime and do nothing, not on the similarity of the crimes.

Dont believe the hype, he said nothing wrong.

[Behind the Aegis]

130. Not missing the point.

I understood where he was going with it, but he compared the wrong things. That was my point. And, I do feel it was an inaccurate remark. I will retract 'stupid' because I just think he got his terminology fouled up. I don't think it was malicious or anything we should shrink from; if anything, it gives us a place to jump from.

[K-W]

133. But he wasnt comparing the things you claim he was comparing.

He was comparing the public reaction. You are accusing him of comparison he didnt intend to make, but one that can be taken from some of his language. This is why he is in trouble, the republican spin machine will pull the turth they want out of the words, but as he clearly indicates, he is comparing the reaction of the international community where a crime is committed and it is ignored. A perfectly valid comparison that doesnt in any way demean the severity of the Holocuast. Conyers isnt responsible for the spin people can potentially put on his less than perfect phrasing.

[Behind the Aegis]

142. Spin

He may not have intended to make the comparison, but he did make it. As I said, I understand what he was trying to say, he just didn't phrase it very well. Personally, I don't think he is trouble and if that is how it is being spun, then he will need to find his footing and make it clearer as to what he MEANT to say. How about, "the silence of the fraud committed is as deafening as the silence that once surrounded the Holocaust. Will it take another Holocaust before the public and international communities are moved to act?" I think that sums it up pretty damn well, and is an accurate comparison.

[Karenina]

163. Bubala, you're splitting hairs.

Charles Rangel is reiterating that NEVER AGAIN MEANS NEVER AGAIN. What the U.S. *MIC is conducting in Iraq is G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E. This *cabal that has seized the American government has learned well from Nazi mistakes. They ARE eugenicists and Nazis!!! Therefore you get:

NO nassy pix (carnage, dead soldiers)
NO accurate numbers of deaths and injuries of those brown folks
NO media coverage of the atrocities (well, maybe a little here and there)

MEANWHILE with the technological advances in the last century the potential for WANTON DESTRUCTION is EXPONENTIAL!!! Do you really need to hold on to your "worst ever" construct? Babykins, you ain't see NOTHING yet. And don't think for a minute that YOU are not in the crosshairs of these vile *elitists. They're into a scattershot "reduction of the excess population."

[Chicago Democrat]

22. CHARLES RANGEL IS A PATRIOT AND TRUTH TELLER!!!

Hail Charlie!

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. I don't know about the Holocaust, but it rivals the move into France

and Poland.

[Carni]

41. Yes, I agree completely EOM

[theboss]

27. It's from newsmax

Hence, I don't believe it.

[neuvocat]

63. Yep. I didn't even click the link.

It doesn't matter who says what on that site without a link to a creditable source.

[Pepperbelly]

127. I sure HOPE that it's true. Charlie giving the rat-bastards what for. nt

[daleo]

30. Oh no! He said something's "as bad as the holocaust"

Why, that's as bad as the holocaust.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. this is funny to you? n/t

[daleo]

51. Not funny, pointing out a tactic that will be used to discredit him.

His valid points will be buried under criticism about making a comparison (of anything) with the holocaust. Thus the facetious remark.

The debate about whether anything could ever be as bad as the holocaust has become something of a diversion. Many people will now skewer him over this remark, not noting he was referring to the similarity of the silence and denial, not the absolute numbers killed.

Certainly the Nazis killing six million Jews (as well as millions from other groups they hated) is in some sense worse than Bush's U.S. invasion killing 100,000 Iraqis (or perhaps 200,000 by now). But Americans are directly responsible for the latter, not the former. That's the relevant debate now.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. I appreciate your response.

Now I understand your post. Had he made the comparison about the silence that surrounds both issues, then it would have been more apt.

[daleo]

156. For the record, I don't agree with holocaust deniers

I have no doubt the holocaust happened and I do consider it among the worst collective crimes in human history. And I have no sympathy for Nazis or fascists, in part because of my own family history in WWII, and of course on general grounds of human decency as well. And I understand that Jews have a well founded fear of persecution and genocide.

[Sparkle]

32. Oh boy! He'll get lambasted for that remark.

Some say there is no crime of humanity in the history of the world that was worse than the holocaust. And there never will be.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Modern history

In modern history, there is very few things that even come close. However, the situations in Africa are rapidly and alarmingly reaching the comparison. However, if one were to look at the whole of human history, there are other examples that come mighty close, some would even say comparable.

[Malikshah]

52. There's actually a large debate about exclusivity and the Holocaust

Some who wish to research and discuss the other 5 million killed in the camps, or the tens of millions killed in Stalin's collectivization, or the millions killed in the Nanking, etc.-- if they make the "mistake" of comparison to the Holocaust, they are often pilloried or, at worst, called Holocaust deniers.

Then there are those who will equate the Armenian Genocide with the Holocaust-- two very different events.

What it all tends to boil down to is that some wish to control the discussion, control the debate, control the discourse to benefit them and their particular cause at a given moment.

It's fascinating to watch. Pathetic and frustrating at times, but fascinating nonetheless.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. It is interesting.

I think the exclusivity of the Holocaust and Jews, is that almost half of the entire world's population of Jews was eradicated and that was the goal. Although, it is my understanding that the Roma (Gypsies) may have also suffered similarly, meaning that nearly half of their entire world's population was erased (although, I can't find anything right now to back that up, just what I have heard). This cannot be said of the other genocides. I don't think it is ever wise to compare genocides to one another, as they are equally unique.

[Colorado Blue]

80. The fact that there were other tragedies LIKE the Holocaust

doesn't dilute its particular symbolism. For one thing it was brutally effective: it wiped out almost half of the Jews in the entire world. That puts it WAY up there with genocides.

Even now the Jewish population is 2 million less than before Hitler. Countless generations have been lost, an entire culture was wiped off the map. It was the culmination of centuries of scapegoating, stereotyping, envy and fear - all directed at ONE small, unarmed and very vulnerable minority.

And, it was systemically carried out in one of the most modern, sophisticated, best educated nations on the planet.

The fact that other groups of people were hunted down and killed only makes it worse. But the disaster for the Jewish people was catastrophic. I can't begin to express how many ways it affects us to this day.

So I don't mind at all when people talk about other genocides, like the murder of 1,000,000 Armenian Christians or 700,000 Assyrian Christians, in the Middle East. They should. They should talk about the Soviet atrocities and we should DO SOMETHING about Darfur. They're a tragic part of history and a tragic part of our future.

But, I would like very much for people to understand and respect how this one really was unique - at least in Western culture - especially since that SAME group of people is STILL being demonized in the same EXACT terms as before the Holocaust.

In other words - this particular hatred hasn't died, the mythology is intact, and the attacks, once again, are rising around the world. In America, we're hearing Conspiracy Theories, the same ol' same ol' assumptions about Jewish power and desires to Dominate The World. In the Middle East, these European and Christian slanders have now combined with old local and Islamic slurs, creating a toxic brew. Calls for the genocide of the Jewish people are distressingly common. Many of us are quite worried about a repetition.

THAT is why we think people should respect the Holocaust for what it was.

[Malikshah]

117. It appears that the issue I raised was cogent.

To even mention the debate that is ongoing elicits a defensive response and a finger-wagging replete with all caps.

Actually, it's worrisome to see such a defensive vicitimization-style response to a post in which there was no denial of the Holocaust or its importance, but rather a mentioning of the fact that when folks discuss other atrocities...well... just read above and it's all clear.

[Colorado Blue]

137. Really? Why is it worrisome? What's worrisome to me is

the fact that some folks don't want to acknowledge the points that I was trying to make, chief among them the absolute fact that the bloodletting didn't kill the mythology.

I think that's very important. And it's unique to this particular group of people. That fact reflects some very serious problems with Western culture, particularly in the way Christianity and to some extent, Islam, regard the living exponents of their religious forebear.

It's also emblematic of the way small groups, who insist upon remaining individualistic, can be maligned and victimized. That's a sad fact of human society, it seems. Thus, the murders of the Gypsies, who also were "other".

But when religion is involved, when the fact that a group of people refuses to bow down and accept this or that GOD, people really seem to feel threatened.

I believe the sheer fact of unbelievers bothers some people. Look at the bullshit at the mosque - the very presence of Jews constitutes "impurity". So is the fact that we are constantly being proselytized by Christians and threatened with hellfire for "rejecting Jesus". It isn't too far from "impurity" to "monkeys and dogs" and "rejecting Jesus" to "blood in the Matzos".

The fact that things LIKE this have occurred again and again and again, to the SAME group of people, makes the Holocaust UNLIKE most other disasters, in that it was just the worst (so far) of the tragedies that have befallen this particular group of people. And I think it says a great deal more about the people who've perpetrated the crimes than it does about the victims.

We have to live with the catastrophe. I think people should be willing to look at the culture that created it and may well repeat it, and not try to wriggle off the hook by mentioning other disasters, like Stalin's nightmares of things that happened in East Asia.

[Malikshah]

151. What is worrisome is that some wish to continue to obfuscate

the discussion from the original focus of my response.

Par for the course, though.

Worrisome and tiresome.

[stickdog]

114. Pol Pot gave Hitler a run for his money, IMHO. (nt)

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Hmm, as bad as the Holocaust was, how does it compare to Stalinist

purges of the peasantry during the '30's. I've seen estimates that Stalin's purges killed as many as 20 million (3x the number of Jewish deaths).

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Genocide

I think there are plenty of examples of genocide. However, the Holocaust was unique, in some sense, that it was a program designed to eliminate an entire group of people, Jews. What was also unique was that Jews from other places were brought in for extermination. The genocides in Russia and Nanking (thanks to the poster who reminded me of that one), took place within their respective borders. Does it make it any better? HELL NO! Genocides are not new, each are unique in some way.

[coalition_unwilling]

57. Hmm, interesting point. One could say each genocide is unique, but

the post I was responding to said that the Holocaust was the worst genocide. With 3x as many peasants killed during Stalin's collectivization, how is the Holocaust "worse"?

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Worst

I would say the Holocaust was worse in that the Nazis targeted certain populations, especially Jews, for total annihilation. However, when looking at numbers, the genocide in Russia, is worse. So, I believe most people think the Holocaust is the worst because of sheer intention. Of course, I can't speak for the other poster, I am just opining.

[coalition_unwilling]

61. I used to think the Holocaust was "worst" until I read

Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism, which educated me on Stalin's depredations. Nowadays, I don't think of one as worse than the other (I guess).

[Behind the Aegis]

66. I can appreciate that.

The level of human depravity is sometimes just....well, I don't know a good word for it. I think the real issue is not comparing genocides to one another, because they are all tragic and unimaginable in their scope. However, I also think it is inappropriate to compare non-genocidal actions to any genocide. (Notice how it is always the Holocaust that is used as the example?) It would have been just as inappropriate, in my opinion, had he compared it to the Russian genocide or Nanking. By doing that, it diminishes the true horror of those events, and distracts from the horrors of the current events.

I guess I see it, in a similar fashion, when people talk about how they are treated like slaves at work. It diminishes the horrors of slavery. I know have I said it in the past, but then came to realize, my experiences did not even compare to that of a slave.

[Colorado Blue]

81. Proportionately, for one particular group of people, I'd say

the Holocaust was pretty effective.

And, it was based not on some temporary political situation, but upon a culmination of 2,000 years of stereotypes, including blood libels (ie, Jewish people use Christian blood to make matzohs).

Also, the mythology, as I pointed out elsewhere in this thread, hasn't died.

[Colorado Blue]

76. Let's HOPE there won't be. It should forever stand as a

lesson to all humanity and that's why comments like Rangel's, however well-meant, aren't really appropriate.

As a Jewish person I'm not angry about it, because I am against the war also, and I love Rangel, but I also don't believe in demogoguery to get a point across.

Ironically, also, it was the fear and disgust at Saddam's human rights violations that made the war more attractive - especially, I might add, to Jewish people. We can relate to atrocity.

That's why I'm so upset about Darfur and, especially since seeing the movies about Rwanda, really haunted about that.

[damntexdem]

33. I don't know that it is as bad as the Holocaust. I don't think so.

But it is still a war crime that cries out for prosecution.

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. That's the comparison he is drawing.

He is not talking about equating number or types of deaths. He is talking about the complicit silence surrounding crimes against humanity.

[cthrumatrix]

62. I agree...the silence and lack of "checks and balances" is frightening

[Roland99]

35. "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

[sattahipdeep]

43. So the prognosis for America isn’t really good?

MORET: Yeah, the concentration of the depleted uranium
particles in the atmosphere all around the globe is increasing.
There are indications that the U.S. will go in June and bomb
the heck out of Iran. We’re monitoring the U.S. Army
ammunition factories. They have very large orders for those
huge bunker buster bombs that have 5,000 lbs. of DU in the
warhead.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6232

Rummy's flowers!

[Roland99]

88. Nope. The vocal dissenters are being outnumbered by the

silent and apathetic.

Well, that and our elected leaders are beholden to corporate lobby groups, not the people that actually elected them to office.

[Pacifist Patriot]

46. I understand what he is saying, but he'll be crucified for it.

Absolutely no sick pun intended.

He is talking about the silent complicity which compounds a horror, not the number of deaths. Still people will pounce on the Holocaust part and forget he's referring to the silence and acceptance of injustice and oppression.

But as someone said above, hyperbole may be the only way to get anyone's attention these days.

[natrat]

64. he is right

hunt down complicit politicians and confront them

[David Zephyr]

65. Praise the Lord for Charles Rangel !

It is about time!

Charles Rangel, you have my greatest respect for speaking up against this criminal war.

Further, those of you here at the DU that quietly supported this war (and you know who you are) should be very, very ashamed of yourselves.

[Gregorian]

68. go go go

[Disturbed]

79. More than complicit silence.

Most Dems support the Occupation.

[foo_bar]

77. I think he was trying to evoke Niemoller

"The whole world knew it and they were quiet about it, because it wasn't their ox that was being gored."
- Rangel

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists..."
- Niemoller

[Colorado Blue]

83. Well, in that case I would say we need to watch out for the

home front.

The demonization of Muslims is frightening. So is the stereotyping of Jews and the propagation of Jewish conspiracy theories - ironically, many of which are coming from the left.

This could most certainly overlap into the targeting of OTHER vulnerable groups. It could, in fact, kick off another bloodletting, another generation of holocausts.

Wake up, America! We need to love, protect and support each other and not allow The Great Spin Machine to divide and conquer us, and set us at each other's throats. I'm quite sure that's EXACTLY what they're hoping will happen.

And, since this is a liberal, progressive website - that means US, the left. Time to stop demonizing people, targeting people because of their religion or heritage, or even whether or not they may have had enough disdain for Saddam to have supported the war. It's time to stop pointing fingers at people, like ME for example, who believe the war was wrong BUT that the Arabian people don't deserve brutal totalitarian governments.

What's important is to stay together and work on the issues that we cherish most: individual liberty and full rights for ALL citizens, real and effective help for the people we've messed up in Iraq, the environment, economic justice, alternative fuels.

We can't undo what Bush has done. Let's not undo each other and our cause.

[deacon2]

82. Yes, it's "Scanners" time

I'm just going to surrender to the anarchy for a while and enjoy the spectacle of these miserable wingnut motherfuckers gurgling bile and gnawing off their own limbs.

Dean called the charge, and Rangel is bringing up the rear guard. They recognize that it's time for trench warfare. Edwards, Biden and the rest of the apologists can just spin on their own swollen sanctimony. Our party and our candidates have endured similar attacks and worse for five long years now. Both my cheeks - hell, all four of them, are blood red from being offered up for another blow. Enough is enough.

[natrat]

89. not much middle ground

[DoveTurnedHawk]

87. You've Gotta Be Fucking Kidding Me

When are people -- all people, not just Democrats, not just Republicans -- ever going to learn that comparisons to Hitler, the Holocaust and the Nazis are just incredibly counter-productive? Newsflash: unless 6MM people have been murdered by a totalitarian state in truth, the comparisons SUCK.

DTH

[geckosfeet]

95. The metaphor is "complicit silence". Write it on the board 1000 times.

The number of dead is never and irrelevant consideration. But we need to compare current events to historical events in the ways that they are similar,, or perhaps different. This gives us "context".

In this case Rangle wants to emphasize the fact that the press, the American people, people of the world, are for the most part silent in the face of a monumental lie that led to crimes and murder of historic proportions. This is called "complicit silence". This description of international denial could apply equally well to the holocaust as well the lies and war crimes in Iraq.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. People Only Hear the Word "Holocaust"

And all that other stuff gets completely lost, and people who hear it just think poorly of the speaker for having no sense of proportion.

The fact that so many pols just can't seem to figure this out boggles my mind.

DTH

[Nihil]

148. Some people certainly seem to

> And all that other stuff gets completely lost, and people who hear it
> just think poorly of the speaker for having no sense of proportion.

Your post in #87 being a classic example.

People who immediately go to DefCon6 on hearing the word "holocaust"
and turn on the speaker are far more ignorant than the bigots who claim
that it didn't happen. Why? Because the former spread their ignorance
far and wide without criticism whilst the latter are quickly smacked
down.

The "attack-dogs" in this thread have almost drowned out Rangel's
message. In that respect, they are no better than the mainstream
media or any of Bush's other lapdogs. They fail to understand that
Rangel's words carry truth and instead spend vast quantities of energy
and indignation quibbling over grammatical ambiguities.

If you want to pick holes in the English language usage of a politician
then start with the shithead in the White House, not a Democrat.

[Behind the Aegis]

157. What a completely offensive post!

However, I am not in the least bit surprised.

[Nihil]

168. Ah, a type B post

Please stick to providing information as you have done (very usefully)
upstream in this thread rather than coming out with unsupported crap
comments as you have done in the post I'm replying to.

The former raise a lot of respect, the latter do not.

[Behind the Aegis]

172. My rationale

I posted to you after another poster said I and others who disagree with the way the statement was said were "Shrub apologists." The way I read your thread, it seemed to say the same. I will explain how I came to that conclusion. I am doing this because I see you are willing to discuss differing opinion and not result to name-calling.

You stated: "People who immediately go to DefCon6 on hearing the word "holocaust" and turn on the speaker are far more ignorant than the bigots who claim that it didn't happen. Why? Because the former spread their ignorance far and wide without criticism whilst the latter are quickly smacked down."

I felt you were calling me and others ignorant, worse than a bigot. That assertion made me very angry. I also felt the hyperbole of going to "DefCon6" (I think DefCon5 is as high as it goes :)) was inaccurate. I won't speak for others on this, but I, personally, was not offended or angry that Rangel used a Holocaust reference. I just felt it could have been worded better. The right would have still gone nuts because he invoked the image of the Holocaust. Furthermore, your last sentence is not true, in my opinion, because it looks like the 'former' (people who 'turned' on the speaker) are getting quite a smack down right here. And, the 'latter' (the deniers), sometimes I think they are gaining credibility, and, frankly, that scares the shit out of me.

Your second paragraph reads: "The "attack-dogs" in this thread have almost drowned out Rangel's message. In that respect, they are no better than the mainstream media or any of Bush's other lapdogs. They fail to understand that Rangel's words carry truth and instead spend vast quantities of energy and indignation quibbling over grammatical ambiguities."

I took this as a reference to me, although, perhaps you didn't see me as an "attack dog." I felt, that why I didn't agree with how he said it, the message was important. I even went as far as to state, a few times, a more accurate comparison. Then you go on to say we are no better than the "mainstream media or any of Bush's other lapdogs", which sounded, to me, as if I were be called a Shrub apologist, again! For disagreeing with what a Democrat says, now we are Shrub apologists or lapdogs? What happened to freedom of opinion?

As for quibbling over grammatical ambiguities, if one is going to invoke the image of the Holocaust, then one needs to be damn CERTAIN the comparison is accurate!!! One should not expect people to "glean" the information because, and you are correct, using the Holocaust as a comparison, is big stuff! I did understand what Rangel said, I just feel it could have been stated better, which would have been MORE effective.

Finally: "If you want to pick holes in the English language usage of a politician then start with the shithead in the White House, not a Democrat."

I do this in spades! I just commented last night on the article about Gov. Perry of Texas saying gay and lesbian troops coming home from Iraq should look for another state, and asked if that was the "support the troops" meme I have been hearing so much about. As for the shithead in the White House, I don't feel I need to tear his language apart, 3rd graders can do that! :)

So, if I misread/misunderstood the intent of your post, I apologize. Hopefully, you can now see how I saw it and hope I explained why I felt it was offensive and why I was not surprised (the second posting insinuating I was a Shrub apologist/lapdog).

[DoveTurnedHawk]

161. *I* Am Aware of It and Understand It All

Your post in #87 being a classic example.

I am also able to recognize, however, that the average listener is NOT going to be able understand it. All they will hear is exactly what I said: "Holocaust."

People who immediately go to DefCon6 on hearing the word "holocaust" and turn on the speaker are far more ignorant than the bigots who claim that it didn't happen. Why? Because the former spread their ignorance far and wide without criticism whilst the latter are quickly smacked down.

I'm turning on the speaker because the speaker should have known better, especially since he's an experienced pol who knows what the public is about.

The "attack-dogs" in this thread have almost drowned out Rangel's message. In that respect, they are no better than the mainstream media or any of Bush's other lapdogs. They fail to understand that Rangel's words carry truth and instead spend vast quantities of energy and indignation quibbling over grammatical ambiguities.

Fuck that. Rangel's message was drowned out from the outset, by his own poor choice of words. Wishing the American public was more clued in is a far cry from it actually happening. The only thing wishful-thinkers -- who naively believe that people are suddenly going to wake up and pay attention to this stuff rather than their Desperate Housewives and sports -- accomplish is alienating a broad swath of ordinary folks.

DTH

[Nihil]

167. If you are aware of it, why pour fuel on the fire?

> I am also able to recognize, however, that the average listener is
> NOT going to be able understand it. All they will hear is exactly
> what I said: "Holocaust."

Hence my comment:

>> People who immediately go to DefCon6 on hearing the word "holocaust"
>> and turn on the speaker

This whole knee-jerk reaction has been hammered into the brain-dead
public. It avoids them having to interrupt their sports viewing,
listen and think. It means they can unthinkingly parrot out the
"nothing is the same as the Holocaust" line without even knowing what
the Holocaust was. That's what your reaction has achieved.
That is the true and honest extent of the well-meaning criticism
of Holocaust comparisons: instead of reducing the impact of the
Holocaust by references to "less worthy" genocides, all that has
been achieved is a total trivialisation of the word into a glib
"something that happened in WWII but cannot be mentioned" niche.

> Rangel's message was drowned out from the outset, by his own poor
> choice of words.

Sadly, I fear you may be right. He thought he was speaking to people
who have sufficient intelligence to understand the English language
in sentences of more than five words. He misjudged badly.
What other Democrats should do now is not howl at Rangel, pointing
the dreaded finger and scream with the herd but reinforce his message
by adding in the missing words ("during" or "in the sense of" as
suggested upstream in this thread).

> Wishing the American public was more clued in is a far cry from it
> actually happening.

Now *there* I agree with you 100%.

(And I apologise for being overly blunt to you in my previous note)

[TankLV]

107. Only YOUR opinion.

The comparisons are more than valid.

The fact that countless comparisons can be made AT ALL is the issue.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

116. Umm...Duh?

It should be quite obvious that I was expressing my opinion.

Go ahead and poll your friends who are either apathetic, or somewhere in the range from moderately liberal to moderately conservative, however. I suspect you'll find the response to be quite uniform.

DTH

[TankLV]

159. Just because the nazi-wanna-be's are in a state of denial, does not

make them correct.

It is hard to admit that you've been wrong about everything.

And all of my friends are mostly NOT repukes.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

162. Yes, the Echo Chamber Effect Is Quite Evident Here

The simple fact that anyone here is claiming Rangel's statement is in any way a good or productive thing is eloquent testimony to the fact that many people here only hang out with extreme leftists.

A majority of voters chose Bush, which should tell you how smart the average voter is. They're not going to wake up just because Rangel starts using Nazi-era Holocaust imagery. Quite the contrary.

DTH

[TankLV]

170. Yes - we need more Vichy Dems!

Repuke-lite is the way to go!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

173. What an Outrageous and False Dichotomy

Any Democrat can easily refrain from using Holocaust imagery without becoming "Repuke-lite". Fight, but fight smart, like Harry Reid.

The fact that you bizarrely equate a failure to use Holocaust imagery with being "Repuke-lite" is again eloquent testimony to the counter-productive side of extremism.

DTH

[pie]

90. What he is saying is exactly correct:

"I am saying that people's silence when they know terrible things are happening is the same thing as the Holocaust, where everyone would have me believe that no one knew those Jews were killed over there."

[Behind the Aegis]

93. Not really.

Just using that one quote, it is still inaccurate. The silence about the acts may be the same, but it (the silence) is not the same as the Holocaust. The Holocaust was the systematic destruction of 6 million Jews and 7 million other peoples. His statement would have been an accurate comparison had he said:

"I am saying that people's silence when they know terrible things are happening is the same thing as the silence that surrounded the Holocaust, where everyone would have me believe that no one knew those Jews were killed over there."

[IbeaBonehead]

94. SHIELDS UP

The is gonna hit the fan now!

[Strawman]

96. Parallels, yes, as bad, no. I won't nod my head to that

That being said I'm not going to beat up on a guy who basically is just trying to stop something that is wrong. The way this is always framed is a canard to turn people opposed to the war against each other. So I don't agree with his statement as a point of fact but I understand and respect the moral intent behind it.

Still, just because I want to see Democrats in Congress speak out, doesn't mean I have to be in lock step with every statement they make if I think it's not accurate. The war in Iraq is wrongheaded, but George Bush is not systematically exterminating Sunnis like Hitler killed six million Jews because he simply hated them. George Bush has been the figurehead for a war machine that doesn't care that it has killed thousands of Iraqi's. For some killing is killing and there's no difference whether it's deliberate (like Hitler) or collateral (like Bush). I can understand that, and it's certainly more tragic for those Iraqi's and their families, but morally and looking at it from a big picture, and looking at the intent behind both leaders' actions, I simply do not think the two are equal.

I agree with him that silence in the face of senseless killing is bad. And it is probably the biggest fraud committed on this country by our leaders. That kind of behavior allowed the Holocaust to happen. I don't think Rangel is trivializing the Holocaust because he's just trying invoke the memory of the Holocaust to stop senseless slaughter and that's what it should be evoked for. But I don't agree with his statement that the War in Iraq is "as bad." Trivializing the Holocaust is when Kwame Kilpatrick's dad compares the treatment his son is getting from the local press to the Holocaust.

[Igel]

103. I think he's wrong on a few counts.

It's not like people are being silent. FDR kept quiet; Stalin didn't care. It wasn't on the front page of the NYT day after day. Iraq and the deaths of Iraqis is reported pretty much daily. Such silence. So they aren't similar in terms of media exposure. Rwanda was similar in this sense: Clinton knew before the media story broke, and simply refused to belief it.

His simile quickly leads to an offensive absurdity. A couple hundred k Iraqis. 6 million Jews. Does he believe that each Iraqi life is worth that of 3k Jews? Hardly. They aren't similar in terms of loss of life. And by that standard Stalin GULag system was worse.

Do we think * is intentionally going in to wipe out Iraqis? Sunnis or Shi'a? Turkmen? Kurds? If so, he's doing a very, very bad job. If genocide is the eradication of an ethnicity, then Hitler's organizing, or having others organize, an effort to systematically extirpate the Jews counts. In this sense, Rwanda, S. Sudan, and Darfur are similar. If the US army wanted to kill Iraqis, there'd be far, far more dead. It's hard to disguise a million corpses.

So in terms of silence, magnitude, and organization I think that Iraq and Holocaust aren't similar enough to merit "like". Let's see ... that leaves "fraud".

Granted, Hitler at Terezin committed great fraud. In other locations, too. But people aren't being lured into Abu Ghraib with the promise of an Islamic paradise, or being carted to Fallujah to work in an all-Sunni camp. And without the "back end", the ovens and the systematic execution or starvation of those in the camps, the fraud claim also falls a bit flat. There plausibly was fraud involved, but it was Hitler's claims to the Jews vs. *'s claim to Americans.

The sense of outrage on the part of some people over the Holocaust and what's going on in Iraq are similar. Iraq and the Holocaust are similar in that there are innocent people being killed. There are similarities; they just reduce the enormity of the Holocaust.

[liberaliraqvet26]

119. These comments are

counterproductive. It is true that evil is evil but comparisons to Hitler & the holocaust always stir up a hornets nest and are taken the wrong way by the public. Jewish Americans are some of our biggest supporters and donors and a growing minority are going over to the GOP in each election cycle as it is. Rangel has a habit of being counterproductive, during the election when I worked a surrogate for the Kerry campaign, his pushing unpassible draft bills made it hard for me to get some college age kids to our side. This was in Ohio & Florida. The college repukes passed Rangel's bill all over campuses.

[daleo]

175. Mathematically speaking:

Six million divided by 200 thousand is 30, not 3000.

I have heard that the U.S. probably killed 3 million Vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. Does this qualify as half as bad as the holocaust? Perhaps it was only a million, which would be one-sixth of a holocaust.

Some say the relevant measure is the thoroughness of genocide as a percentage of the original population. How about the many native tribes that were 100% wiped out by the U.S. government and other colonial powers in the Americas? There must have also been many African societies that suffered as similar fate during the slave trade. Are those worse than the holocaust?

These are just rhetorical questions, of course. But the mathematical mistake noted above does tend to diminish the scale of Bush's crime, so it is worth correcting.

[young_at_heart]

105. Let's prove, without a doubt, that it was fraudulent

If prominent Dems could get their act together and figure out a way to make the reaal truth come out, maybe we could feel like Americans again.

[Nancy Waterman]

111. And what is the correct answer from our Dem leaders?

It is to AGREE with the SUBSTANCE of what Rangel is saying and avoid the issue of agree or disagree with the metaphor. The issue is that people are not speaking up about the atrocities of this administration, they are sleeping through it all - the torture, the lies, the pillaging of thenational treasury, etc.. We did get lied into a war that has caused thousands of death and much destruction. We need to get angry and make a stand about it.

Incorrect answer from our Dem leaders. " I don't agree with Charlie Rangel. That example is over the top, et. etc." And to make Charlie Rangel the issue instead of looking at the point he was making, which is just what the GOP machine will try and make happen.

[Behind the Aegis]

113. BINGO!

I don't agree with this comparison, but the substance is the real issue!!! The world is being silent, as it was once before. The Dem leaders need to get that message and spread it far and wide. Rangel made an erroneous metaphor, big deal! It is WHAT he was saying that is really important.

[natrat]

109. one thing worse than the holocaust

they have stolen more money

[Ian David]

115. Is this a good time to donate money to Rangel? n/t

[JoFerret]

183. He doesn't need it

Send it to someone who needs it.

[Gyre]

118. It's obvious that attack hyperbole has been decided on

in certain circles. I'M ALL FOR IT! Being polite has certainly gotten us jack-shit so I'm for anything that rocks the boat. It would be hard for us to fall any further, so I also don't see that we have anything to lose by trying it.:)

Gyre

[Chicago Democrat]

132. THAT'S THE MOST INCREDIBLE THING I"VE EVER READ!

you are correct sir!

[geek tragedy]

124. Proof that even very smart and noble leaders say stupid things.

Not a smart thing to say at all. But Rangel's a mensch.

[symbolman]

134. He's absolutely RIGHT

Makes no difference whether someone is forced to drink an OUNCE Of Cynide or a Gallon, it has the same effect..

This has been a Conspiracy from the start, and anyone with half a brain knows it..

especially the Media.. I want to see some of those rat fuckers drug in front of a tribunal in the Hague..

Anyone who pushed this phoney war on the TV should be in CHAINS and on suicide watch, they are ACCOMPLICES, and that includes blow dried hair talking heads, tho I will make exceptions to folks that run cameras or are hired to do sound, etc..

the rest of them need to be frog marched to the Hague along with Bush, it's time for a major (albeit non violent and legal) HOUSECLEANING - this includes CONGRESS..

[Miss Chybil]

140. I agree with Rangel. I wonder what the history books will say about us?

;(

[cambie]

143. Godwin’s law was before, now it is time for talk.

The holocaust would have been just fine after the Nazis won. Most would have been erased; the little remaining would have been transformed by the media into some triumph of good over evil. Anyone who remembered would have keep quiet.
The Iraq war would also have been fine. The plan was for a cakewalk.
“No one later will ask the victor whether he has told the truth or not.” – Adolph.

[burrowowl]

145. Actually

I would probably say Cambodia/Vietnam in lives lost so far. But if we include the Iraq Sanctions ... getting close.
And don't forget the 200,000 Guatemalean Indians killed under RayGun.

[Emillereid]

147. Go Rangel Go! A democrat with balls is a wonderful sight to see!

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PATRICK]

164. A conscious effort in rhetoric

to up the "Dean" ante in their face with something they DON't want to talk about. This is bold considering their scoffing at Carter on Gitmo, Amnesty International, Newsweek, Dean, etc. etc. etc.

He's just DARING them to make an issue of his choice of words and give him more exposure for the DSM. He knows they have all as a single chicken clutch have decided not make a peep about anything connected with their iraq crime evidence.

Double dog dare you. Now THAT'S how one fights a distraction, with a healthy dose of their own containing real truth.

There's also his trying fruitlessly to smoke them out about silence on an increasingly necessary draft.

[lakercub]

174. kick n/m

[Irreverend IX]

177. Not a good idea, I'm afraid...

As Godwin pointed out, the Nazis are so extreme an example that comparing anyone with them makes you look crazy. The RW can easily spin this as far-left craziness, and it's easy for them to point out that many more people died in the Holocaust than in the Iraq war. I also think it's kind of disrespectful to those who did die in the Holocaust, and it could spark anger from the Jewish community. We need to take the hammer to the neocons, but Nazi comparisons aren't the way to do it.

[cheeto]

178. Rangel Press Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
June 8, 2005 Contact: Emile Milne
[phone]

THERE GOES ABE FOXMAN AGAIN
WASHINGTON - Cong. Charles Rangel today criticized remarks by Abe Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League which he said were part of an effort to divide African-Americans and Jews.

"Abe Foxman has made a living attacking Black leaders on charges of anti-Semitism. His statements are usually libelous, divisive and serve no purpose but to pit Blacks and Jews against each other while keeping Foxman's name in the newspapers," Congressman Rangel said.

In a statement to a New York newspaper reporter today, Foxman demanded that Rangel apologize for his comments in a radio interview earlier in the week that compared the silence of the public on the Iraq War and the silence of the world during the Holocaust.

'Why does Foxman have nothing to say when I compare the silence over the war in Iraq with the silence of the world during the genocides in Yugoslavia, in Rwanda or in the Sudan? This is not a game of words. It's about what happens when people ignore illegal actions by their leaders. It is about man's inhumanity to man wherever it occurs," Congressman Rangel said.

"Abe Foxman knows very well of my compassion for the victims and families of the Holocaust, just as he knows my outrage over an unjustified war that has taken 1,600 American lives, wounded more than 20,000, and killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis," said Congressman Rangel, a decorated combat veteran of the Korean War.

"Abe Foxman knows that for my entire career in Congress I have worked in lockstep with my Jewish colleagues in support of Israel and in fighting injustice in this country and abroad," Congressman Rangel said. "But he chooses to ignore the facts and instead tries to twist my words and turn them into something ugly. He has done it repeatedly over the years, often making me and other Black leaders the targets of his attacks.

"The sooner Blacks and Jews recognize what Foxman is doing, the sooner he will be out of business, and the stronger both groups will be in working together to address our mutual interests," Congressman Rangel said.

[Frederik]

181. Thanks for that, I agree fully with Rangel here

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[cheeto]

184. Thanks for the welcome.

I simply adore Charlie Rangel. He tells it like it is. I've donated to Rangel's campaign in the past even though I live in Iowa. He is a great spokesman for the Democrats and a true American hero and patriot.