TV show depicts 9/11 as Bush plot

[Minstrel Boy]

TV show depicts 9/11 as Bush plot

By Tom Goeller
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
June 9

...

Sunday night's episode of "Tatort," a popular murder mystery that has been running on state-run ARD-German television for 35 years, revolved around a German woman and a man who was killed in her apartment.

According to the plot, which was seen by approximately 7 million Germans, the dead man had been trained to be one of the September 11 pilots but was left behind, only to be tracked down and killed by CIA or FBI assassins.

The woman, who says in the program that the September 11 attacks were instigated by the Bush family for oil and power, then is targeted, presumably to silence her. The drama concludes with the German detectives accepting the truth of her story as she eludes the U.S. government hit men and escapes to safety in an unnamed Arab country.

As ludicrous as it may sound to most Americans, the tale has resonance in Germany, where fantastic conspiracy theories often are taken as fact.

...

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050608-095942-4588r.htm

[meganmonkey]

1. Sometimes the facts are more ludicrous than any fantasy....

:shrug:

[sattahipdeep]

2. Sibel Edmonds

A report issued by the US Justice Department
has boosted the credibility of Sibel Edmonds,
the former FBI translator who claimed a foreign
intlligence agency had blocked evidence
gathered prior to the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds.htm

[seemslikeadream]

9. sattahipdeep!

My harbour lights are fading fast
soon they'll disappear
alone I sit in darkness
hoping someone might come near
though I wait, though I try
no one ever comes
and the feeling that I have flood over me
the river starts to run

We fly so close
we fly so close
sometimes we fly too close

Every place you run to, everywhere you turn
there are places that you know you should not go
but some bridges just won't burn
all my life, though I try
I cannot change the past
and the ghosts that come back to haunt you
make you realise at last

We fly so close
we fly so close
sometimes we fly too close
we fly too close

My heart is racing much faster now
life passes before my eyes
something's I see, they make me smile
something's they make me cry
so I look, so I try to find
a lesson I can learn
the passing of time hasn't changed my mind
and the ghosts I know return

You know we fly so close
we fly so close
sometimes we fly too close
we fly too close

We fly so close, you and I sometimes
sometimes we fly so close,
we'll never know how many times
we fly so close
we fly so close

[EC]

126. Now, that's the Genesis I remember.. n/t

[Up2Late]

3. I hope they starting to sweat at the Washington Times

but most likely not.

[OKthatsIT]

35. We will make them see....keep the truth alive.

It will happen.

[Mizmoon]

4. The Germans are being portrayed as stuipd?

"As ludicrous as it may sound to most Americans, the tale has resonance in Germany, where fantastic conspiracy theories often are taken as fact. "

Riiiight ... those ignorant Germans ... :eyes:

[trotsky]

6. Yeah, how would they ever recognize a government bent on

world domination and the subjugation of others? :eyes: :sarcasm:

[Mizmoon]

11. Heidegger, Hegel, Kant, Nietzsche

Schopenhauer not to mention the composers ... :eyes:

[Sgt. Baker]

10. Worked for the FAA

When it happened. I got lots of inside info and actually know someone who was sitting on 395 and saw the plane hit. It was a plane. We were simply not prepared for this attack. I'm sorry to say but there is no evidence linking Bush to the attack. I'm also sorry to say that many citizens of foreign countries do believe there was some sort of conspiracy.

I've heard them all including that the planes were empty and that they were being remote controlled by the CIA. I'm not much on the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I have proven them all wrong before using hard facts, common sense and a knowledge of physics.

[fooj]

12. And this blurb of propaganda brought to you by the US Govt.--

:rofl:

BTW- I don't think that you're the least bit sorry...

[Sgt. Baker]

18. don't

do that please and don't alert my post for saying something you may disagree with. I really like this place and don't want to be banned or blocked for saying something I believe even if others think it's ridiculous or wrong.

Bush is to stupid to have anything to do with planning it and even if he did there is no way he would be able to keep it a secret. Some people give him way to much credit especially after likening him to a monkey.

[hippiechick]

20. 'Plausible Deniability' rears its ugly head ....

"...Bush is to stupid to have anything to do with planning it ...'

Uh huh ... sure .... :eyes:

[Sgt. Baker]

22. I don't get it

Maybe I'm stupid but I don't get what you are saying. Are you implying Bush is actually smart? I'm not trying to cause trouble or anything, I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

[TheWatcher]

47. Stop with the evasiveness.

You come here claiming to work or to have worked with the FAA, and you claim all the "conspiracy theroies" are untrue and claim to have proof of that. Then, when challenged to Post specifics, you cannot.

Post your Work.

Simple, really.

[Sgt. Baker]

61. I did

Work for the FAA. I was working at a remote site for the IAD tower.

You have not given me anything specific to prove. You have only asked me to prove something. What I'm not sure yet.

[TheWatcher]

71. Re-read your original Post.

You said you could prove all the Conpiracy Theories unture with all of your "Insider Information."

You claim to have all this "Inside Information", yet you can post none of it.

Still wating for an explanation about those tapes.

And why the Air Force was told to Stand Down.

Wow Us, O' Insider.

[Sgt. Baker]

76. straight

I never used the term "inside information" you guys did. All I said was that I worked for the FAA and had a relative in the CIA. The relative explained to me how intelligence works. The job let me see how the FAA works and learn about aircraft.

It was one tape that an FAA employee crushed in his hand.

I don't know whay or if they reallky were. I haven't seen anything that allowed me to make a definite decision on that one.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

84. Who said this then?

"When it happened. I got lots of inside info and actually know someone who was sitting on 395 and saw the plane hit. It was a plane. We were simply not prepared for this attack. I'm sorry to say but there is no evidence linking Bush to the attack. I'm also sorry to say that many citizens of foreign countries do believe there was some sort of conspiracy.

I've heard them all including that the planes were empty and that they were being remote controlled by the CIA. I'm not much on the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I have proven them all wrong before using hard facts, common sense and a knowledge of physics."

[Sgt. Baker]

87. d'oh

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

88. No shit, OK let's try it one more time from the top n/t

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sgt. Baker]

93. see

Instead of berating me for not knowing stuff why not simply try to educate me. I obviously don't know as much as I thought I did. I came to DU because I wanted to talk with people who have the same democratic ideals and maybe learn something. Obviously I need to learn a lot. Help me out here instead of driving me away.

[TheWatcher]

98. If you didn't want to be berated

You shouldn't have come here making all the claims you did, posing as an insider, and puffing your chest out claiming to have all this inside information and claiming to be able to refute all pf the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories.

YOU were the one claiming to know more than us, yet when challenged you made a complete fool out of yourself, and NOW you want to be educated?

Wow. Just WOW.

[Sgt. Baker]

102. I guess not

I know I made a fool out of myself. You guys know way more than I do I know that now. You don't have to rub it in my face. I still would like to hang around DU to learn more. Please don't have me banned or anything. I'm gonna duck out now since I have nothing more to contribute to this topic.

[TheWatcher]

Before you go

You might want to answer this question?

Why did you come here and present yourself as someone you are not?

If you truly wanted to learn anything from DU, why pose as a disruptor?

Why should anyone take you seriously when you were purposefully dishonest about yourself to begin with?

Bye Now.

:hi:

[seemslikeadream]

99. HERE IS ALL THE HELP YOU NEED

and if you are truly sincere then I will apologize

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[Sgt. Baker]

103. Thank you.

I had not found that part of the forum yet :hi:

[TheWatcher]

106. LOL. Should we alert them you are coming?

They are going to LOVE you.

[dissent1977]

107. I don't want to drive you away

I think you are expressing your honest belief that the government had nothing to do with the attacks of 9/11. I think you may be wrong about that, but I do think you are honest in your belief. And yes if you did work for the FAA I can believe you had some "inside information". You probably did not have very much inside information, but you may know some minor details that could qualify as inside info. And yes, you are correct Bush is too dumb to plan such elaborate attacks by himself, and he most likely had little or nothing to do with such attacks.

What I do believe is that some of his friends did know about the 9/11 attacks and allowed them to happen, for two reasons. Money and power. If you don't believe that look in to the put options that were traded in the stock market for United and American Airlines, as well as some of the corporations with offices inside the World Trade Center. Someone made a lot of money off the attacks, yet where is the investigation? And why were no fighter jets dispatched to defend Washington DC. They could have easily stopped the attack on the Pentagon, and they likely could have stopped at least one of the two towers from being attacked but they chose not to respond until the attacks were over. Why? There are just too many unanswered questions, and the Bush Administration has been stalling any attempts at a serious investigation (the 9/11 commision was a whitewash that did not even look into many of the key questions). I want answers, and the more Bush stalls the more it appears he has something to hide.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anotherdrew]

82. bush doesn't matter, he is a nothing puppet doing as he's told

[EVDebs]

139. So, you must know all about the Ptech and wargames stuff ?

Tell us what you think of Mike Ruppert's excellent book Crossing the Rubicon.

Vigilant Warrior etc were the wargames on 9-11 the press is having so much trouble even mentioning. And the Pentagon...isn't it ringed with air defenses like already before 9-11 ?

I think you get it, sarge.

[RedSock]

55. of course bush was not involved

most people who believe in govt complicity (me included) see him as a mere puppet -- and a pretty poor example of a puppet at that.

as far as disproving all the conspiracies you have heard about, i suggest reading this book.

http://complete911timeline.org/911_terror_timeline_by_paul_thompson.jsp

i'd be shocked if afterwards, you believe the govt's hands are clean.

[Lerkfish]

97. I think you're wrong.

but that's ok.
a lot of people wrongly voted for Bush, also.
Where you are wrong is in several places...you're not wrong to have an opinion that the US did not let it happen or make it happen....that's an opinion and nothing wrong with having it.
where you're wrong is the assertion that it is impossible.
It is eminently possible to both plan, execute and cover that up.
Consider how long it has taken us to uncover with documentation how Bush shaped the intelligence around the policy to invade Iraq. State secrets are very easy to keep if you control everyone who knows, or if everyone who knows is in on the gig.
That's how govt. corruption works.

To say Bush is too stupid has no bearing on whether his administration brought events to bear to create a pearl harbor incident. Cheney and Rumsfeld are likely running the show anyhow.

but like I said, I think you're dead wrong to think nothing like this could ever happen, but its ok to have the opinion that it didn't in this case. The first is naive and unrealistic, but the second is just an opinion.

cheers.

[CJCRANE]

113. Information doesn't

even necessarily need to be covered up, just not widely disseminated.
For instance, 10,000 people may notice a small article near the back of the New York Times but public opinion is formed more by the 10,000,000 people who get their info from the TV news headlines (made up numbers but I think you get the gist).

[Lerkfish]

117. good point.

yep, especially in this bizarro world, where actual photos of Abu Ghraib have been emblazoned across the media but your average republican denies any abuse occurred.

[Old_Fart]

115. You don't have to have a brain to be EVIL

This is a dark era in history and what we are going through right now is still not over. Bush would put his mother to "sleep" without the blink of an eye. Then again his mother would put anyone to "sleep" that messes with her crooked, evil, nasty, greedy, war mongering dumb fucked up family.

[Orsino]

143. * is smart enough, and perhaps evil enough...

...but his entire Administration's complete ineptness on 9/11 and immediately after shows that they were taken by surprise, too.

We see ample evidence of CYA attempts, sure, but I don't buy the "Bush knew" theories. A Gore administration would have been listenting to Clarke a lot earlier, but they would have faced Republican obstructionism in trying to make changes, and I honestly don't think they would have performed a whole lot better on the day itself.

Gore would have been much saner in the years since, and the world would be safer today--for us, and from us.

[Upfront]

137. Sarge

You got one thing right, Bush is stupid.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Most "conspiracy" theorists believe the planes were real.

But Bush & co were warned of the danger of an attack. By people "lower" in our intelligence agencies & by foreign intelligence agencies. Bush's actions on the morning of the attack indicate he was told to sit still & do nothing. Until he fled to save his miserable neck. Why did he REFUSE to testify before the committe investigating 9/11? He spoke to them in private with Cheney holding his hand.

News: Many citizens of THIS country believe there was some sort of conspiracy. And not the "official" conspiracy story. (Sorry, the "Lone Gunman" theory won't work here.)

[seemslikeadream]

14. Show us your work

sounds interesting

So what about Sible Edmonds?

Massive government failures, so why was no one fired?

[Sgt. Baker]

21. govt failures

are not conspiracies. They are failures. They have replaced some people in the intelligence circles but have not addressed the real problem. Nobody outside each agency sees the RAW intelligence gathered and this includes other agencies. The FBI will not show RAW intelligence info to the CIA etc... It gets filtered the further up the chain it goes and molded into what they want to reveal. Until in the end Bush gets exactly what the different intelligence agencies want him to get. I have a relative who worked for the CIA for many many years.

[seemslikeadream]

23. Just who has been replaced?

You are so correct government failures are not conspiracies.

What about Sibel Edmonds?

[Sgt. Baker]

26. He backs up

one of my claims that RAW intelligence gets filtered into whatever the agency thinks the president wants. He as a translator gets RAW info. That gets filterd again and again until it reaches the top with each person modifying it to their liking. That is the problem with our intelligence agencies today.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

37. Don't you mean she? n/t

[Sgt. Baker]

41. sure

I don't know what sex she is. All I know is the name and that she was a translator.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. Oh, brother. Yaaaawwwwnnn.

[Sgt. Baker]

60. no need

to be so mean to me. What did I do? You still have to tell me what you all want proof of.

[Gelliebeans]

108. you sure get around

in 3 days time you have tried to ruffle many a feather hmmmmm and you claim everyone is being mean hmmmmm

here is one of my favorites
Sgt. Baker (50 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jun-09-05 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Whatever happened to



innocent until proven guilty. That's the way the judicial system works, you can't just throw it out the window even for someone as bad a bush.

[IChing]

64. Bingo!!!

"All I know is the name and that she was a translator."

Can we listen more to your expertise?
How fast did the f-16 fly to chase the terrorist planes?

I heard they can fly at Mach 2, but since you have a FAA, CIA and sergeant status that is way beyond me I would appreciate your inside knowledge.


I'm ignorant so enlighten me?
Is there a place where I can get the truth?
You seem to know a lot more than me

[Sgt. Baker]

70. She was a translator

The only thing I said about her was that she backed up one of my claims that the p[roblem with intelligence in this country is how the RAW intelligence gets filterd into what they believe the president wants to hear.

[IChing]

73. The speed of the F-16 chase planes?

[TheWatcher]

77. Like the destroyed FAA Tapes

He probably has no knowlege of THAT happening either. :eyes:

[Sgt. Baker]

80. actually

I had never heard of that one. Honestly!

[TheWatcher]

32. You worked for the FAA. You have a friend who worked for the CIA.

Rich. Since you worked for the FAA why don't you tell us about the tapes that got destroyed. I'm sure you have a "plausible" explanation for that other than the BS "poor judgement" spin.

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_20a/briefs/187259-1.html

[Sgt. Baker]

43. tapes?

Do you mean the black boxes.

[seemslikeadream]

48. No the FAA tapes!

Don't you know about the tapes?

[Sgt. Baker]

51. vague

you are being really vague. "the tapes" is what?

[seemslikeadream]

53. You are being vague

Show us your proof

Sgt. Baker (34 posts) Thu Jun-09-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #4

10. Worked for the FAA


When it happened. I got lots of inside info and actually know someone who was sitting on 395 and saw the plane hit. It was a plane. We were simply not prepared for this attack. I'm sorry to say but there is no evidence linking Bush to the attack. I'm also sorry to say that many citizens of foreign countries do believe there was some sort of conspiracy.

I've heard them all including that the planes were empty and that they were being remote controlled by the CIA. I'm not much on the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I have proven them all wrong before using hard facts, common sense and a knowledge of physics.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. Your act is painfully bad.

[TheWatcher]

59. We're being VAGUE.

Please stop playing games. I think you are going to find many of his here just a bit too informed to fall for them.

I Posted A LINK to the ENTIRE STORY about this incident.

I find it difficult to believe you worked for the FAA and did not know about ths incident.

[Sgt. Baker]

63. Please

repost the link or at least just tell me what you are talking about so I can google it.

[TheWatcher]

69. It's POSTED in my previous message.

All you have to do is click on the link.

But since "The Internets" seem to be so challenging for you, here it is again.

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_20a/briefs/187259-1.html

Now, MARVEL us with your INSIDER INSIGHTS.

[Sgt. Baker]

72. some guy

crushed a tape in his hand. That wasn't hard to figure out.

[TheWatcher]

78. And you don't find this incident The LEAST bit suspicious?

And by the way, the tapes weren't crushed. They were cut up into small pieces and discarded in several different trash cans.

Even when provided with a link to an actual news story that lists facts in Black And White, you can't even keep THOSE straight.

[Sgt. Baker]

83. yes

it is but it's no conspiracy. It's destroying evidence.

[TheWatcher]

95. And why would this individual be destroying evidence?

Could it be to cover something up?

Oh, but THAT'S RIGHT. If someone were doing that, they would be covering up a....a....

A CONSPIRACY!

So I'm SURE it was just poor judgment that led him to consciously DESTROY in pre-meditated fashion, important evidence and take GREAT care to cut up all the tapes with SCISSORS and distribute them in SEVERAL different TRASH CANS, so that they could never be RECOVERED intact.

Yes indeed, just good old incompetence there. :eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Even if he does know about the tapes, he'll continue to claim he doesn't.

[TheWatcher]

54. Oh this is such a good laugh.

Did you not follow the link I posted?

Here's an exceprt:

Information provided to the commission investigating the U.S. government's response to terrorist threats prior to September 11, 2001, names an FAA quality manager in the destruction of an audiotape made in the aftermath of the 9/11 hijackings. Each of at least six air traffic controllers and some ten other employees who were on the job at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) in Ronkonkoma, N.Y., during the World Trade Center attacks gathered several hours after to recall their version of events. But that tape, which could have helped determine how the agency responded to clues that four planes had been hijacked, was destroyed before it was ever heard. In fact, officials at the ARTCC were never even told of the tape's existence. According to the report given to the 9/11 Commission by Department of Transportation Inspector General Kenneth Mead, the audiotape was crushed in the hand of the unnamed FAA employee, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building. Despite the fact that the quality assurance officer had been told to retain all records pertaining to 9/11, he told inspector general investigators he destroyed the tape because he felt making it was contrary to FAA policy, which calls for written statements. He is also quoted to have said the controllers "were not in the correct frame of mind to have properly consented to the taping" because of the stress of the day, and told investigators that faced with a similar situation, he would repeat his actions.

Surely you aren't going top claim you didn't know about this.

After all, you worked for the FAA, and you have all this inside information.

Yet you didn't know about this.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[seemslikeadream]

62. Amusing isn't it?

[anotherdrew]

101. be nice to the sarge, he's not trolling.

Anyway it's a nice chance to test arguments

[anotherdrew]

104. ok, maybe he is. My guess? Age: 17

[emcguffie]

16. Why were gov't officials warned not to fly that day?

More than one, but the one I know off-hand is Mayor Brown of San Francisco.

Isn't that just a little odd?

[TheWatcher]

33. And for that Matter why was the Air Force told to Stand Down?

C'mon, you have all the answers. Let's hear em'.

[catzies]

34. And wasn't Willie Brown warned directly by Condi Rice? (IIRC)

Odd...

[bobbieinok]

122. and Ashcroft stopped flying commercial a few days befor 9-11

[catzies]

132. I think he stopped long before that - July, IIRC

n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

17. Heard of the coincident war games, one simulating live-fly hijackings

the morning of 9/11 on the Eastern seaboard? What's your FAA "inside info" say about that?

I don't think anyone in this thread, or on the TV show, said anything about the planes not being planes. If that's what you think "9/11 conspiracy theories" are all about, then you've been sadly, and probably intentionally, misled.

[Sgt. Baker]

25. I worked next door to

the NRO building that was having an exercise that day. Inbound flights to Dulles fly directly over this building all day and night. They were having a safety drill in the case of a plane crashing into the building.

The others were coincidence in my opinion. They do these drills several times a year. 9/11 fell on the first full week of the month. It was a tuesday. Monday to plan and prepare for the drills and the rest of the week to evaluate and go over the results. I believe they do these four times a year. Split the year into four parts and one falls on September.

Nobody has to agree with me and please don't alert this post. Show me why I am wrong in thinking this way.

[TheWatcher]

30. You are the one who claims to have all the proof what happened that day

Post it.

[Sgt. Baker]

46. what

do you want me to prove?

[Minstrel Boy]

39. I agree with you about this:

"Nobody has to agree with me and please don't alert this post."

I'd also say it's a mistake to say something like "Bush did it." Bush, the man, does virtually nothing. It's a bit of shorthand to say "Bush Knew," but I think it can be misleading and simplistic.

[Lerkfish]

118. I'm confused why you keep asking no one to alert on you?

I think you're wrong, but I've seen nothing to alert for...

however, I've seen you beg not to be alerted repeatedly.

umm..is there some reason for that? our mods are pretty good...even if you're alerted, they can exhibit good judgement on whether to take appropriate action or not.

[sattahipdeep]

19. Since you alone are responsible for your thoughts,

only you can change them.

You will want to change them when you realize that
each thought creates according to its own nature.

[Sgt. Baker]

27. you are

way to smart for me :hi:

[TheWatcher]

29. Stop the amateurish attempts at being evasive and Post the Proof

you are boasting about.

Stop wasting people's time.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. He's got nothing. Period.

[Sgt. Baker]

49. what

do you want me to prove?

[TankLV]

116. Trouble is, ALL of us are "way to smart" for you!

But it is fun playing your game - we've all seen and heard this before.

Enjoy your stay and welcome to DU. Maybe if you stick around and read a lot before posting, you'll actually learn something!

Good luck and happy learning!

[TheWatcher]

28. And I'm sure you'll be able to post ALL of that Proof refuting all those

"conspiracies" right here for us, because you are so knowlegeable, as well as be able to prove the Official Story is true.

Like many before you who have posted such delusions of granduer, I defy you to do so.

And like them, you can't, and you won't.

Sorry, what you are selling is old and stale.

Post your work and your proof or Go Back To Sleep.

[TheWatcher]

36. Ahhhh. The Sound Of Silence Once Again.

Once again, another "Nothing To See Here, The Official Story Is True and I have all the facts to back it up" poster slinks away in the face of being challenged.

Typical.

[seemslikeadream]

44. Mr. No Facts

[Sgt. Baker]

57. Why

Are you being so mean to me? I can't post proof of anything unless you tell me what you want proven.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

67. Poor thing, it's just cause you're just so funny looking

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sgt. Baker]

79. why

would they ban me? What site rule have I violated? I'm not really disagreeing with you or anything. I just said I could debunk some of the conspiracy theories.

[seemslikeadream]

89. THEN DO IT

PLEASE

[Sgt. Baker]

90. what theory?

[seemslikeadream]

92. Oh I'll leave that up to you

JUST PICK ONE ANY ONE

I'm waiting patiently

[TheWatcher]

91. Then why have you not been able to do it, despite being

Challenged several times.

You're completely without credibility at this point.

Here's a little challenge for you, as far as the conspiracy theories you can refute.

PICK ONE. ANY ONE YOU LIKE. PROVE IT TO BE FALSE.

Use Links, references, and documentable facts, as well as your own Inside Information.

You can't, and you won't.

This should be fun.

[CJCRANE]

94. Don't worry -

you have to realise that some of these guys have been reading up daily on information related to 9/11 for years, since...well 9/11.

So when you say you're going to debunk the conspiracy theories you prob don't know the enormous amount of info that most veteran DUers take for granted.

Also be aware that there are in fact different types of "conspiracy theories", from way out and not believed by many (e.g. remote-controlled planes and missiles) to those based on mainstream and official information.

Once they realise you're a genuine newbie they might take it a bit easier on you. But realise that you'll prob learn a few things too.

on edit: added "daily" + sp

[TheWatcher]

100. He claimed to work for the FAA and he claimed to have

"Inside Information" about what really went on that day. He presented himself as an expert, and claimed to have knowledge the General Public would not have access to.

He got challenged several times, and the most he could some up with was "he knew someone who was sitting on 395 when the plane hit", and "I have a relative who used to work for the CIA." He didn't even know some of the PUBLIC NEWS Stories that have been around for quite some time.

He got exposed, and now he is backpedaling and retreating faster than a roadrunner.

He's hardly an innocent newbie looking to learn anything.

Just another game player who got caught.

[CJCRANE]

105. You're prob right,

it did seem as if he'd merged Sibel Edmonds with his "relative", and didn't seem to know what sex "she" was.

[CJCRANE]

109. Actually,

that was quite fun to watch, you guys are relentless.

I did kinda feel sorry for him, he literally jumped in at the deep end!

[EVDebs]

140. You meanies ! He's waiting for Gerald Posner's cover book to come out

"Bush Didn't Know Bleep" I think is the working title.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

38. How do you explain Payne Stewart's situation then?

A scant two years prior to 9/11, Air Force and Air National Guard jets were scrambled and had visual contact (close enough to observe the precipitation on the windows)within an hour of problems with a small twin-engine Lear.

Yet, two years later, 4 commercial jets are hijacked, and "We were simply not prepared for this attack." So nothing was done.

I call bullshit. Here's the article on Stewart from the Washington Post. Unless that's too "librul" for you.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/oct99/crash26.htm

On edit:
Oh yeah, and let's not the forget that in the wake of the Payne Stewart tragedy the FAA had meetings and decisions were made about when shootdown orders should be carried out in case of a potential terrorist attack or in case an unmanned plane was going to be in the vicinity of a metropolitan area. Such as, I don't know, say the Eastern Seaboard, I-95 corridor. But, I guess "we were simply not prepared for this attack."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/26/shootdown/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. Go sell your story on some other board...you're not going to find...

...much support for the NeoCon's version.

[Jester_11218]

66. So where are the plane parts and why won't they release the videos?

Very simply put, all they have to do is release the videos of the attack that were taken by the security cameras at the gas station, (which were taken by the FBI), and we would all go away happy.

I have been part of the research community for 2 years and I think a small military A3 SkyWarrior with a misile aboard hit the Pentagon. This is according to the evidence I saw.

You made a loud statment but you did not provide any evidence other than a claim of knowing someone who saw it, which is not evidence, it it a claim.

Sorry, you have to convince me because I have seen too much to buy that story.

Reference:
http://www.rense.com/general61/EPENT.HTM
http://rense.com/general64/911et.htm

Daily 9/11 news:
http://www.tvnewslies.org/news/#911

[dissent1977]

114. I disagree, but I am still going to stand up for you

I have noticed alot of DUers here attacking Sgt. Baker for expressing this belief of his that there was no conspiracy. I personally believe that there is a lot the government is not telling us, but given the misinformation we hear in the media I can see why someone like Sgt. Baker would think the way he does.

Please everyone lets make this a civil exchange of information. I have not heard Sgt. Baker personally attack anyone on this thread yet, and we should not be attacking him. Lets present him with the information that we know, but lets also understand that the majority of Americans believe what he believes. Now it may be that the majority of Americans believe in a lie, but that lie did not originate with Sgt. Baker. How are we going to convince anyone of anything if we treat them so rudely?

[TheWatcher]

121. Perhaps if he had not presented himself falsely

We would not have done so. You should read his original post. He claims to have worked for the FAA, and presented himself as someone who had "Inside Information" regarding the events that happened on that day, in other words, knowledge the General Public did not have access to.

He claimed that he could refute all of the 9/11 Conspiracy theories, claimed to have a relative who worked for the CIA who also fed him "Inside Information" on how intelligence gets "filtered."

He was challenged to share what he knew, but he never could post anything, and pretty much used the same tactics that many of us have seen disruptors use in the past.

He didn't even know about this.....

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/10_20a/briefs/187259-1.html

That was a Public News Story that was hardly "Inside Information". Yet he claims he was an FAA employee.

He was treated rudely because he pretended to be someone he wasn't. Whatever his motivations for doing so, only he knows, but one who truly wishes to learn and gain knowledge usually doesn't take this approach.

if you check his Posting history, he hardly seems like someone who is interested in learning and participating in an objective manner.

[Sgt. Baker]

125. dissent1977

Thank you.


Watcher:
I shouldn't have come off thinking I knew something that had not been discussed here before.
I claimed something I could not back up since I was unaware of how much information you had on the topic already.
I am not trying to be disruptive. The typical conspiracy theory is what I was expecting. The remote controlled plane, it wasn't really a plane. What you presented I had never come across before. Honestly. I'm not much for the news.
Every FAA employee does not get a memo telling us that things like that happened.
I really did work for the FAA, I almost went to school to become a controller. That woulda been scary eh?
My posting history seems to be a big topic. I haven't made any controversial posts, no attacks or anything that violated the site rules. I just post what I believe. If you think I am wrong, just explain why instead of doing what happened here. That is all I am asking.

[reprobate]

128. Oh but you DO believe in a 'conspiracy theory'.

If you believe the Official story, you believe that there was a "conspiracy" of islamists who conspired to fool our immigration people to get into the US, to take flight lessons in order to learn to fly an airliner, to crash it, but not take off. And somehow they conspired to circumvent our NORAD to say nothing of the air defenses around the pentagon. By the way, was the FAA inspector who destroyed the ATC tapes one of them or one of ours.

No, my friend, we both believe in conspiracy theories. The only thing we are discussing is just who led the conspiracy. Do I think it was Mad George? No, of course not. He has been described as having a 'lazy mind', and I wouldn't give him credit enough to pull this plan together.

But then Mad George is mo more than a figurehead, you'll have to agree. There are many more trained and disciplined minds among the PNAC members who in concert had the connections to make sure it happened. Sorry, but there are just too many coincidences that all had to occur in order for this conspiracy to be pulled off if it was really just 'ragheads' on theirt own.

And remember that PNAC called for a "New American Pearl Harbor" in order for their plans to be successful. If Sept 11, 2001 does not qu alify as that, I'm open to suggestions.

Of course the biggest coincidence is the fact that EVERYTHING bush and PNAC wanted to do was dependant on 9/11 happening. Or do you believe that it all just happened on it's own? If so I've got some prime Florida swampland you may be interested in.

[symbolman]

136. Then Please tell me

why USAF plane were not scrambled the SECOND a HUGE airliner deviated from it's flight path over very Populated City?

I was in the USAF, I have been literally RUN OVER by scrambled pilots who were off the ground by the time I was able to peel myself from the floor and get to the window in the door that led to the air strip.

I'm not buying it my friend. Someone was told to stand down, and someone in the FAA KNOWS about it.

I hope you're not telling me that you wouldn't alert someone if an airliner suddenly decided to just head off into the unknown?

We had regulations in the USAF and I KNOW they have VERY stringent Regs for air traffic controllers and their supervisors.

Please explain how that happened?

[0007]

15. You noticed that too, 'eh?

[trogdor]

5. Tatort rules!

Translated, it means, "the scene of the crime."

I used to watch this in the 80's when I was stationed in Germany.

[cdb]

8. Bush is too stupid to plan for his lunch

Everybody knows that Rove planned 9/11

[EVDebs]

7. Hmmm. Must've heard about Col. Butler

Air Force Officer Disciplined for Saying
Bush Allowed September 11 Attacks

Hijacker Attended US military School

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/bushknew/milschool.html

"A US Air Force officer in California recently accused President Bush of deliberately allowing the September 11 terror attacks to take place. The officer has been relieved of his command and faces further discipline. The controversy surrounding Lt. Col. Steve Butler's letter to the editor, in which he affirmed that Bush did nothing to warn the American people because he "needed this war on terrorism," received scant coverage in the media.

Universally ignored by the press, however, was that the officer was not merely expressing a personal opinion. He was in a position to have direct knowledge of contacts between the US military and some of the hijackers in the period before the terrorist attacks that destroyed the World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon.

Lieutenant Colonel Butler, who wrote in a letter to the editor of the Monterey County Herald charging that "Bush knew about the impending attacks," was vice chancellor for student affairs at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California — a US military facility that one or more of the hijackers reportedly attended during the 1990s."

I wonder if he's any relation to the USMC Gen Smedley D. Butler...he's certainly as brave.

[Sequoia]

24. But we know he was behind it really.

I'll never forget his eyes when Card came and told him, a mixture of fear and excitment is what I saw.

[billyoc]

31. Any torrents for this episode? n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Not ludicrous to me at all. Glad they had the courage to air it.

[haktar]

68. As a stupid German i believe everything the moonies say.

So now i have to admit:
The Maine was really blown up by the Cubans.
the Lusitania didn't carry ammunition and wasn't sacrificed by Churchill.
There was no knowledge of an imminent attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese.
In the golf of Tonkin you were shooting at North Vietnamese vessels.
Iraqi soldiers killed Kuwait babies in hospitals.
We saw actually pictures of an concentration camp in Kosovo.
Not to forget: Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was gonna use them!!
Now: Did i forget to debunk any major "conspiration theory" connected to a War?
:rofl:

So: while I'm not convinced of MIHOP or LIHOP, there were simply too many advantages to the bush administration by 9/11.
The question i ask myself is not: Let they 9/11 happen?
The question i ask myself is: if they would have known it in advance, would they have done anything against it with all the advantages it will bring to them?

[ixion]

74. ludicrous? not one bit.

More plausible that the 'official' story. :grr:

[Kellanved]

81. snarf. Moonie Times as usual.

It was not much different from "24" or "CSI" (incidentally, CSI does not seem to be entirely uninfluenced by the "Tatort" format). This was a particularly boring episode, BTW.

The LIHOP character was a Junkie, crazy as a fruitcake. Contrary to the Moonie Times' impression, the episode had a completely open ending.



But hey: they even missed the most obvious thing; the hitman was played by: Ill Young Kim :tinfoilhat:

[David__77]

86. The German left must begin a mammoth anti-US campaign NOW.

If they are to defeat the right, they must tie them to the apron strings of Bush and Blair. Most Germans are opposed to US aggression abroad and resent militarism. If I were in Germany I would vote PDS, but the Social-Democrats would be preferable to the fascistic CDU-CSU front.

[ecoalex]

112. Bush is to blame, he sat on information, and ordered not to be briefed

anymore when he went to Crawford for August.

The FBI was warned 2 months before.

Bush didn't want to be briefed

The airlines warned the FAA, FBI 2 months before

Bush is easily responsible

We see how Bush has used ideology from his first day.

Bush and the neo cons were looking for any excuse to attack Iraq

The case can be easily made, Bush was involved directly , or indirectly, by complacency.

[Frederik]

130. According to Sibel Edmonds

the FBI had very detailed knowledge of the plot by April 2001, from a long-time Iranian FBI informant. She is in all likelyhood referring to "Dr" Abdussattar Shaikh, an Iranian FBI informant who had two of the hijackers living in his appartment in San Diego. Dan Hopsicker went to San Diego to investigate this curious Dr Shaikh, and found that he was not a real "Dr", but had obtained a phony degree from a "mailbox" university run by a local GOP bigwig and retired Air Force officer, that his name was false, and that he had several interesting connections. Hmmm, nothing to see here, move along.

[RBHam]

96. 9-11 = Reichstag Fire

Some people learn from history.

[TankLV]

110. "fantastic conspiracy theories" - nice bit of editorializing.

And your editorializing is proving more remote from the truth with each passing day.

[Old_Fart]

111. It doesn't sound ludicrous to me

It sounds like the truth.

[bobbieinok]

119. Germany: more than half of Germans under 50 think US govt complicit

in 9-11

something like this was in the German news 2+ years ago

"As ludicrous as it may sound to most Americans, the tale has resonance in Germany, where fantastic conspiracy theories often are taken as fact."

to MOST Americans??????? isn't there some survey that has ca 30-40% of Americans not believing the 'official 9-11 story' or as some call it the 'official conspiricy theory'

[EVDebs]

141. Hey, that's about the same as New Yawkers' statistics ! eom

[Greyhound]

120. it's not like they (Amerikan Governments)...

haven't done this kind of thing 100's of times before.

[fooj]

123. Sgt.--All the information that you will need to make an informed

and intelligent decision is available for you. Here's a start...google David Griffin!:patriot:


peace.

BTW- Since I've been a member here, I have NEVER hit the alert button. Nothing to fear from me except the truth.

Truth is our most powerful weapon!

[Frederik]

124. "where fantastic conspiracy theories often are taken as fact"

Huh? So Germans are supposedly more prone to CTs than Americans? May I remind the honourable Moonie Times that it is Americans that surprisingly often believe the X-files are "based on a true story". And while I doubt the US Air Force is reverse engineering flying saucers from Alpha Centauri, the 9/11 incident probably has more layers to it than what is commonly acknowledged.

"which seemed to use haunting Arabic music to portray Arabs and Muslims as innocent victims of American aggression"

Which never happens in real life :eyes:

[fooj]

127. BTW- Conspiracies have been around since the very beginning.

It was the repukes that decided to "label" the word conspiracy. People CONSPIRE all of the time. Check out the Senate. That's ONE HUGE CONSPIRACY AGAINST OUR DEMOCRACY...and what party holds majority in the Senate? If it quacks like a duck... it sure as hell isn't a dog!

[jokerman93]

129. I get everything

I get everything in this post except the part about fantastic conspiracy theories...

[Joanne98]

131. MIHOP lives.............

[yurbud]

133. a former German defense minister said this almost immediately

what's more absurd, that it was an inside job, or that the Air Force left those planes unmolested for TWO HOURS.

[drduffy]

134. most of you probably all know this stuff by heart but

it was a Zogby poll that found that nearly 50% of New York city dwellers believed Bush Co. 'allowed' 911 to happen; 40% of New York state residents thought so.

already noted above, read Dr. David R. Griffin's (a well-known, respected conservative theologian) books on 9/11 -- The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11 and The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions’ and 9/11 and American Empire: How should religious people respond. This is a video of his lecture at University of Wisconsin and which has been broadcast on CSPAN2 three times now. The prepress version of Dr. Griffin’s ‘New Pearl Harbor...’ is available for download from the web. Do a Google search to find it.

and the Journal of Psychohistory' s June article: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and 9/11: A Scandal Beyond What Has Been Seen Before

And even the earlier Power Hour video 'In Plane Sight' (and these folks use a self-correcting process to eliminate issues they feel are no longer valid but retain those that are) and the video ' and another early video, 'Confronting the Evidence: A Call to Reopen the 9/11 Investigation"

or the web site www.911truth.org or http://www.physics911.net/missingwings.htm or http://www.911research.com/ or http://www.911research.com/

or even the recent Hustler magazine..


and the list goes on and on and on (some disinformation is out there but there is also a lot of truth about neocon complicity in 9/11

(sorry if I am restating the obvious to many of you)

[da_chimperor]

135. i watched the last half of that on TV. It was quite odd, I have to say.

I didn't really get the ending (of course I'd already missed half of it) until I read the article. I didn't even think of anyone making a fuss about it, but then the Catholic church has really gone out of it's way to disprove a fictitious novel. :D

[AX10]

138. Interesting to see that Germany has the balls to air this!

God Bless Them!!!

:kick:

[bobthedrummer]

142. Remember this bit of 9/11 Commission news? "German Cancels 9/11

Hearing Appearance.
The German prosecutor who headed the investigation into the Hamburg al Qaida cell has cancelled his appearance before the 9/11 Commission"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4207799,00.html

[JackieO]

144. Whoa

I wanna see that.

[Octafish]

145. That doesn't sound ludicrous.

Sounds based on fact, that does.

Bush knew, all right.

Why would Osama bin Laden want to kill Dubya, his former business partner?

By James Hatfield

Editor's note: In light of last week's horrific events and the Bush administration's reaction to them, we are reprising the following from the last column Jim Hatfield wrote for Online Journal prior to his tragic death on July 18:

July 3, 2001—There may be fireworks in Genoa, Italy, this month, too.

A plot by Saudi master terrorist, Osama bin Laden, to assassinate Dubya during the July 20 economic summit of world leaders, was uncovered after dozens of suspected Islamic militants linked to bin Laden's international terror network were arrested in Frankfurt, Germany, and Milan, Italy, in April.

German intelligence services have stated that bin Laden is covertly financing neo-Nazi skinhead groups throughout Europe to launch another terrorist attack at a high-profile American target—his first since the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen last October.

According to counter-terrorism experts quoted in Germany's largest newspaper, the attack on Dubya might be a James Bond-like aerial strike in the form of remote-controlled airplanes packed with plastic explosives.

Why would Osama bi Laden want to kill, Dubya, his former business partner?

I knew that bombshell would whip your heads around. So here's the straight scoop, folks.

CONTINUED...

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Hatfield-R-091901/hatfield-r-091901.html

The truth got that guy dead. Wonder why Pooty-Toot is still around until I realize that the guy is protected.

Plot to assassinate Bush - reports

MOSCOW, Russia -- Osama bin Laden has threatened to assassinate U.S. President George W. Bush at a G8 meeting in Italy, the head of Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service has said, according to reports.

The Associated Press said Yevgeny Murov was quoted by Itar-Tass news agency as saying: "Bin Laden is threatening the American president, but we know what international terrorism is today and therefore all the bodyguard units concerned are preparing for this.

"We view the threats as totally serious, but hope that with joint efforts we can solve all the problems."

The Group of Eight summit is meeting between July 20-22 in Genoa, Italy. Leaders from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United States are expected to attend the summit.

Murov -- Russian President Vladimir Putin's chief bodyguard -- did not elaborate on the threats. He said agents from Russia's Federal Bodyguard Service have travelled to Genoa to coordinate with their counterparts from the other nations taking part in the summit to investigate the threats.

Reports in the U.S., German and Italian media have said bin Laden may be plotting against Bush and other world leaders coming to Genoa, The Associated Press reported.

Bin Laden has been indicted by the United States for allegedly masterminding the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam which killed more than 200 people.

He has taken refuge in Afghanistan, where the ruling Taliban movement has refused to hand him over to Western powers.

Some Genoa organisers fear a possible assassination attempt and have said they might move the summit venue to a cruise liner offshore or a military base, Reuters reported.

Italy's new interior minister promised tight security for the summit, with soldiers and a large police force.

CONTINUED...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/20/russia.binladen/

Condescenda must've missed the memo.

Missiles to protect summit leaders

Special report: globalisation

Rory Carroll in Rome
Wednesday July 11, 2001
The Guardian

Italy has installed a missile defence system at Genoa's airport to deter airborne attacks during next week's G8 summit, fuelling hysteria about looming violence.
A land-based battery of rockets with a range of nine miles and an altitude of 5,000 feet has been positioned in the latest security measure against perceived threats from terrorists and protesters.

Unidentified planes, helicopters and balloons risk being shot down should they drift too close to the heads of state from the group of seven leading industrialised nations and Russia.

Colonel Alberto Battaglini, of the ministry of defence, said the precaution was not exces sive. "The measure, which was planned by the previous government, may seem open to criticism, but in reality it is merely to act as a deterrent against any aerial incursion during the summit.

"They are little missiles ... which only have a deterrent function to discourage any aerial-led attack and they do not present any danger to the residents of the city," he said.

CONTINUED...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalisation/story/0,7369,519925,00.html

Of course, Mr. Attorney General got plenty of warning.

Ashcroft Flying High

WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001

Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

"I don't do threat assessments myself and I rely on those whose responsibility it is in the law enforcement community, particularly the FBI. And I try to stay within the guidelines that they've suggested I should stay within for those purposes," Ashcroft said.

Asked if he knew anything about the threat or who might have made it, the attorney general replied, "Frankly, I don't. That's the answer."

CONTINUED...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml